Dyno'd the Avant this past weekend.

[LAS]

For the first time in Hawaii someone finally brought over an AWD Dyno. It just opened up last month so you know I had to get on this thing. Me and a several other Audi enthusiast setup a dyno last weekend, consisting of 3 A4s(me, B5/BT, B6/Revo) and 3 S4s(all were at least stage 3), also came by an Evo and STI.

My only ENGINE mods are...
*AWE Exhaust; installed a year ago, myself
*Eurocode Testpipe; installed 2 weeks before, myself
*REVO Stage 2 Software; flashed almost 2 months before, 900mi on initial tune

I wish I had a Vag-Com to do some logging, but I needed a +CAN interface, my old Hex-Com is not compatible. Also did not have a REVO SPS Select Plus to play with any of the settings, so no baseline runs. Eventually I will be getting one and get those #'s at a later time. I was on a 1/3 tank 92(our highest pump) mixed, had a quart left of toluene at home so threw that in. These were 3rd gear runs, seems to get better #'s from what I've been reading throughout the forums.

Highest run was the 1st...I drove right in after coming off the highway, rolled onto the lift and was strapped right on...20mins cool down, which it took to get setup: 216.9whp / 290.21wtq. On a nice hot and slightly humid day, with about 15mins between runs, the rest were pretty consistent as shown below. The one guy with an STI was wondering how I made almost as much torque as he did...http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/4720/huhuu6.gif...not sure what mods he had.

Thanks to my friend Thomas (tai-vw.com) for his trust in this software and great local support...this guy knows his stuff. I did consider the others tuners, but; no APR dealer here...there is a GIAC dealer but as we know there's no CEL bypass for a TP.

Anyways...not so bad for first time on dyno.

Don't have much footage of the day as I came a little late and had to leave soon after I did my runs. Enjoy.

http://img346.imageshack.us/img346/3286/dynostrapped2kf4.jpg
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http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/3909/dynoday1nm9.jpg
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http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/1408/dynoday2lk5.jpg
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http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9020/dynoday3ui6.jpg
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Vid of one my runs:
http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/1076/lasa4dynoqe5.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K--mrf4rS3M)

=================================

My friend's Slow S4 with RS6 KO4s and a bunch of other goodies...best run: 398whp/423wtq on 92 mixed with leftover 104 from last week:
http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/4392/slows4rs6ko4uf9.jpg
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/2654/slows4dynojd9.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKCmObTJisM)

[drive]

*edited video links

[Slo.Mo.Shun.]

what values on boost and tining are you running on Revo

[Fobia]

holy crap you made alot of tourque why so little horsepower no offence

isnt htat what apr 93 makes alone on hp

not tourque... you made some nice tourque numbers

[mrponline]

well done thanks for sharing

[parks853]

Cool.. nice numbers.. thanks for sharing.

[B7AudiA4]

Sweetness...

[Alex@Creative]

what kind of gas were you on? and what were your settings at?

[LAS]

Originally posted by Alex@Creative
what kind of gas were you on? and what were your settings at?

i mentioned 92 w/ some toluene.

oh setting, how could i forget:
timing=3
boost=9
fuel=9

when i got flashed i went ahead and had the boost set to 9 as i knew i would get on this dyno when they opened it up, also i'd like to see my moneys worth. i should be receiving my new vag-com shortly and will be doing some logging to see where things are at. if need be, i can go back to my dealer and turn the boost down. it's not very often i go WOT, only on days like this.


Originally posted by Fobia
holy crap you made alot of tourque why so little horsepower no offence

isnt htat what apr 93 makes alone on hp

not tourque... you made some nice tourque numbers

like they say...all dynos are different. i was guessing i'd make somewhere around 220-225whp. i did a little search and my #s are comparable to what you guys up in the cooler climate mainland are putting down.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101108&highlight=dyno

just by looking at the raw #'s, mine is pretty similar to what inferno has on 100 octane. plus, isn't it coooolder in colorado. i did have a TP though.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93967&highlight=dyno

Thanks everyone else for the comments!

[Toast]

what numbers did the sti make?

[Slo.Mo.Shun.]

have you tried
boost 6-7
timing 5-6 (this depends on octane)

Try these, and do some logs and test, I think you will notice a change for the better.

I am running
Boost 6
Tining 8
Fuel 9

On 93oc with water meth injection

However I would like to increase my boost to 7 or 8, but I am waiting on my exhaust to arrive.

[Ervin87]

Very impressive non the less.
Almost 300wtq ahahah. NICE

[lnferno]

Nice #s, Las! Especially the TQ! Revo software seems to consistently put out high TQ #s.

For the record, it was 77 degrees IIRC when I dyno'd.

[4-tified]

Originally posted by Fobia
holy crap you made alot of tourque why so little horsepower no offence

isnt htat what apr 93 makes alone on hp

not tourque... you made some nice tourque numbers

He's using the wrong gear for accurate info.
3rd gear is 1.42 in the A4.
He should be using at least 4th at 1.03.
And, he might show better hp on a turbo if he used 5th.

His torque is sky high because he's in a very low gear.
These readings are only good for tuning of his car as long as he uses 3rd for all of his tuning runs.

If you want more accurate numbers then run 4th gear baselines and use 4th gear for subsequent mods.

[lnferno]

Originally posted by 4-tified
He's using the wrong gear for accurate info.
3rd gear is 1.42 in the A4.
He should be using at least 4th at 1.03.
And, he might show better hp on a turbo if he used 5th.

His torque is sky high because he's in a very low gear.
These readings are only good for tuning of his car as long as he uses 3rd for all of his tuning runs.

If you want more accurate numbers then run 4th gear baselines and use 4th gear for subsequent mods.

Not necessarily true. The higher the gear, the more you are going to get heat-soaked, hence lower #s. I know this from personal experience.

[LAS]

Originally posted by 4-tified
He's using the wrong gear for accurate info.
3rd gear is 1.42 in the A4.
He should be using at least 4th at 1.03.
And, he might show better hp on a turbo if he used 5th.

His torque is sky high because he's in a very low gear.
These readings are only good for tuning of his car as long as he uses 3rd for all of his tuning runs.

If you want more accurate numbers then run 4th gear baselines and use 4th gear for subsequent mods.

From Inferno's and other post i researched, higher # were coming off 3rd gear runs. In any case, when i get back on the dyno, i'll get some in 4th gear just for comparison.

Thanks for the input!

[parks853]

try to get a stock and chipped mode comparison.

[4-tified]

Originally posted by lnferno
Not necessarily true. The higher the gear, the more you are going to get heat-soaked, hence lower #s. I know this from personal experience.

The point of correct gear is to show more accurately the power output of the engine, not just the gearing advantage of using a lower gear.
Thus, he shows high torque with very low HP.
A higher gear would help give more accurate info.
It is generally accepted that a 1:1 ratio be used for dyno runs, or as close as the gearing will allow.

"heat soak" can occur in any gear. "heat soak" does occur just because one is in higher gear, it is a function of the intake system becoming too hot and less efficient. Use a bigger fan to help control heat soak not a lower gear.
I see no reason why heat soak would be more of a problem in higher gear than a lower gear.
Please explain what you're thinking.

Just because one may not like the lower numbers using the proper gear, doesn't make using a lower gear, to get the numbers one likes, more accurate.

[lnferno]

Originally posted by 4-tified
The point of correct gear is to show more accurately the power output of the engine, not just the gearing advantage of using a lower gear.
Thus, he shows high torque with very low HP.
A higher gear would help give more accurate info.
It is generally accepted that a 1:1 ratio be used for dyno runs, or as close as the gearing will allow.

"heat soak" can occur in any gear. "heat soak" does occur just because one is in higher gear, it is a function of the intake system becoming too hot and less efficient. Use a bigger fan to help control heat soak not a lower gear.
I see no reason why heat soak would be more of a problem in higher gear than a lower gear.
Please explain what you're thinking.

Just because one may not like the lower numbers using the proper gear, doesn't make using a lower gear, to get the numbers one likes, more accurate.

You are right that heak soak can occur in any gear, but the higher the gear that you are in, the longer the dyno run. The higher the gear that you are in, the longer your turbo is working and that type of stress on a dyno is really going to generate a lot of heat soak which is going to yield degraded #s.

I used to be of the same impression that 4th gear is the way to go until time after time I yielded better dyno results doing my runs in 3rd gear. As a matter of fact, during my last two dyno sessions, my first dyno pull was in 4th. I then did my 2nd and 3rd dyno pulls in 3rd gear. Most of the time, your 1st pull is going to be the highest (assuming you're not doing any tuning), but this was not the case. My highest Dyno #s have always been in 3rd gear, even doing them after a 4th gear pull as my first pull!

Just as an FYI, At MAC Autosport (where I do my dyno runs), they have three fans in front of the car for cooling. In addition to the fans, I always spray down the ICs and radiator with cool water mist to minimize heak soak as much as possible (regardless of gear).

[4-tified]

Originally posted by lnferno


I used to be of the same impression that 4th gear is the way to go until time after time I yielded better dyno results doing my runs in 3rd gear.

Just as an FYI, At MAC Autosport (where I do my dyno runs), they have three fans in front of the car for cooling. In addition to the fans, I always spray down the ICs and radiator with cool water mist to minimize heak soak as much as possible (regardless of gear).

The point of REAL numbers is to test how the engine performs/responds to tuning.
A lower gear simply revs the engine to red quicker, NOT more accurately.

If the point is real data, then the use of the accepted 1:1 gearing should be used.

There isn't that much time load on a turbo in 3rd vs. 4th gear to generate anymore appreciable power loss from potential heat soak. The better 3rd pulls are more of a funciton of gearing than heat soak.
If you simply like the 3rd gear pulls better cause they show a higher number, then ok. However, I don't accept them as showing more factual data.

Take it for what you will. I'm just saying that there is an accepted method to help "normalize" testing procedure. If one wants to deviate from that standard so that one can "see" better numbers so be it. However, that should not then stand as definitive data by which to compare other vehicles against, which a LOT of people will do. The guy in the STI was shocked it was said. Well, he shouldn't have been, knowing the testing procedure.

Besides, the only REAL proof of power is in the on road performance. It doesn't matter if your dyno choice yielded 50lb ft. more torque in 3rd compared to 4th. If you car isn't performing that much better on the road (track) then it's just a mines bigger numbers argument.
3rd shows 200hp, 4th shows 190hp. Yet, the car will get to 100mph in the same time, even though one set of numbers shows "better" power numbers.

The main reason a dyno is used is for tuning purposes. You run baselines, mod, run again, compare, tune, run, compare, happy, go to track, performance improved, yeah, happy, have a cold one.[:D] [race]

[lnferno]

I think we are saying the same thing, just two different ways. I agree, if you are getting on the dyno to tune and not for peak #s, then yes, 4th gear is more accurate. This all depends on the software. With REVO, you can tune in real-time. With APR, you don't have to touch a thing, so for me personally, I wanted to see what the highest peak #s I can hit on the dyno since there is nothing for me to tune -- APR has already taken care of that.

[John1.8T]

Good info guys! Great read.

I can see where a 4th gear run may obscure the torque numbers and cause them to read a bit higher because the turbo is working harder to pull the gearing.

Either way its obvious that a 3rd and 4th gear run are important and each have their advantages.

[4-tified]

Originally posted by lnferno
I think we are saying the same thing, just two different ways. I agree, if you are getting on the dyno to tune and not for peak #s, then yes, 4th gear is more accurate. This all depends on the software. With REVO, you can tune in real-time. With APR, you don't have to touch a thing, so for me personally, I wanted to see what the highest peak #s I can hit on the dyno since there is nothing for me to tune -- APR has already taken care of that.

You're right. You now what you're doing. I've read your great information on this forum and it's always interesting.

I was just being nitpicky, moreso for others who may find it interesting to look into it more.

Speaking of that, a few sources have said that a turbo engine typically will show better numbers in higher gears, by allowing the turbo to spool fully without the engine over running the turbo. You do typically see this in dyno charts.
So, the "higher or better" number is probably the HP not the torque.

But, it seems in the FSI 2.0T, the engine was designed more for low rpm torque, than that nice high rpm turbo rush.
I know, for me, I like my 2.0T and it's low rpm pull, but it seems to run out of breath too soon before 6000rpm.
Some things I've read indicate that this may be more a function of the ECU tuning made to keep a flatter torque curve. I can see that.
However, even on the APR, REVO, etc... "chipped" engines, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of gaining on the higher revs.

Is the stock turbo really that low efficient at higher revs? It doens't "look" that small to me.
Do you know how much CFM of air it flows, and it there a chart somewhere showing that?

[4-tified]

Originally posted by LAS
[B]For the first time in Hawaii someone finally brought over an AWD Dyno. It just opened up last month so you know I had to get on this thing. Me and a several other Audi enthusiast setup a dyno last weekend, consisting of 3 A4s(me, B5/BT, B6/Revo) and 3 S4s(all were at least stage 3), also came by an Evo and STI.

]

LAS,

I noticed that dip at around 3100rpm.
It shows in the 1st 2 runs, but it's gone in the 3rd one.
Any idea what that is/was?

[lnferno]

4-tified - relative to the air flow question, this isn't exactly what you're looking for, but close. This is a comparison Bhvrdr did illustrating the intake air mass. This is an APR K03 93 tune vs the APR K04 93 tune for the 2.0T (both had the Carbonio intake).

http://mjbmotorsport.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/IntakeAirComparo-1.jpg

Back to the 3rd gear vs. 4th gear topic. What is interesting is that it can all just depend on the car and/or turbo in terms of what gear puts out higher peak #s. For example, my B5 S4 always hit higher #s in 4th rather than 3rd, but on the 2.0T FSI, 3rd seems to yield the higher #s (from my experience anyways).

As John 1.8 mentioned, it is a balancing act (3rd vs 4th) just depending on what you are trying to accomplish on the dyno.

[4-tified]

Originally posted by lnferno
4-tified - relative to the air flow question, this isn't exactly what you're looking for, but close. This is a comparison Bhvrdr did illustrating the intake air mass. This is an APR K03 93 tune vs the APR K04 93 tune for the 2.0T (both had the Carbonio intake).

http://mjbmotorsport.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/IntakeAirComparo-1.jpg

Back to the 3rd gear vs. 4th gear topic. What is interesting is that it can all just depend on the car and/or turbo in terms of what gear puts out higher peak #s. For example, my B5 S4 always hit higher #s in 4th rather than 3rd, but on the 2.0T FSI, 3rd seems to yield the higher #s (from my experience anyways).

As John 1.8 mentioned, it is a balancing act (3rd vs 4th) just depending on what you are trying to accomplish on the dyno.

Thanks for the chart. Marked better flow in the higher rev for sure. I'm still wondering about the air flow ability of the K03. The power tapers so fast, I'm wondering why.

The gear thing seems to make sense on the classic style turbo where more revs gave the turbo more flow. Of course, that also gives it the infamous "lag".
This 2.0T is quite different for a turbo.
It gets much better low rpm torque, but lacks that sweet high rpm rush.

I'm wondering why that is technically?
I know how the FSI design increases compression ratio thus giving better off idle torque, but I wonder why the top end goes so quick. It's almost as if the turbo spools up so fast in low revs that it can't push anymore air once the engine speed gets high and air demand gets greater.

[Slo.Mo.Shun.]

LAS PM sent

[audimeister]

I'm wondering why that is technically?
I know how the FSI design increases compression ratio thus giving better off idle torque, but I wonder why the top end goes so quick. It's almost as if the turbo spools up so fast in low revs that it can't push anymore air once the engine speed gets high and air demand gets greater.

There are several reasons for the fat torque curve, and relative lack of top end on these motors. Even going back to the 1.8t, the design brief was to create a small, efficient motor that "feels" bigger for normal driving situations- that means max torque.

The five valve design, pioneered by Yamaha in the commercial sense, is the first ingredient. In fact, the design has proven too successful for them- for twenty years they have marketed the Genesis design, and it did produce great numbers on smaller motors. Unfortunately applying too much torque while exiting a corner at speed while cranked over on a motorcycle can have disasterous consequenses. In fact Yamaha has gone back to four valve heads for its top racing engines. Moving the power more to the top end give riders more time to react to a rear tire spinning up.

The rest of the 1.8 and 2.0 designs are ideally suited to produce huge torue numbers given their displacement- valve and ignition timing, port sizes, bore to stroke ratio, and finally compression ratios all play a part. The small turbos are the final ingredient.

It's really remarkable that tuners get good hp number out of these engines at all. But, that's the joy of turbocharging- you can turn up the boost, or replace the turbo altogether to augment (mask?) the engine's true strengths and create one more performance offering from VWAG![race]

[Sherpa]

Man your avant is clean. I hate winter!!