Do I really need to use Synthetic? (Oil Change Question)

[B7AudiA4]

Well, I'm not sure how my warrenty works, but it's 10k and I think it's time that I'm suppose to get an oil change. I called the dealership and they said I shouldn't get it serviced til 15k miles.

I'm thinking I should just take it to a place to do it, and was wonder if I have to use Synthetic oil. I was reading the manual and it said it was prefered, but would regular oil work?

(I bought the car with 6k miles so yeah) I'm really confused on how my warrenty works.

[Rons01B5]

def use synthetic oil

[Fobia]

one word

turbo

[Bob58]

Purely Synthetic that meets VW standards would be better, but in reality, if you're changing the oil every 5,000 miles (after the 5K service) instead of the mandatory 10,000 required by the service manulal, regular dino oil that meets VW specs should be fine.

*Assuming you're not tracking your car or driving excessively hard during those 5,000 miles*

[B7AudiA4]

Okay, just wanted to clear that out.
Thanks. I thought since my car is still new, they'd still give me my oil change or something.

[parks853]

I think it is clear, but YES.

[B7AudiA4]

Well, I mean, I don't drive hard since it's a daily driven car, but I do occasionally get on it a few times.
Anyway, I'll triple check my manual!

[parks853]

502 spec. plain and simple. There is also a sticker under the hood.

[mksap11]

Originally posted by Bob58
Purely Synthetic that meets VW standards would be better, but in reality, if you're changing the oil every 5,000 miles (after the 5K service) instead of the mandatory 10,000 required by the service manulal, regular dino oil that meets VW specs should be fine.


I haven't actually checked, but are there actually dino oils that meet VW 502 spec? Honestly, $38K car. $30 for synthetic or $15 for dino. No brainer for me. It's like putting 89 or 87 octane gas just to save money....

[B7AudiA4]

Well, I've been getting quotes of $61 +tax for synthetic oil. (Mobil 1)
Lowest I got was $50, but I don't know which oil he uses, I was just thinking I should buy the oil myself (but I don't know what filter to buy) and pay someone to do it for me.

[parks853]

it is about 50 bucks for supplies. I get the filter from the dealer. Just do it your self. I save some money that way and know it is done right.

[B7AudiA4]

hmm, interesting. Well I haven't done an oil change on an Audi before, it's way different from my Civic.

[Bob58]

While you can save yourself some money by doing it yourself, it's not quite as easy as most vehicles.

I take mine to the dealer for in between oil changes. Off schedule oil change and tire rotation costs me $99.

They have all the tools. They have the parts. They have the expertise. They dispose of the old oil. And I then have the computerized record of my getting it done.

I spend a few bucks but save ALOT in the PITA factor.

[parks853]

I'm too stubborn.. I just like doing it myself. It is not that bad. Get some rubber power grip gloves to get the filter loose and use some cardboard to catch the oil from the filter. Other than that same as any car. gotta take the belly pan off, but that is getting to be second nature now.

[B7AudiA4]

Bob, you're lucky, I get quoted 130 at the dealer. =(

[Bob58]

Originally posted by B7AudiA4
Bob, you're lucky, I get quoted 130 at the dealer. =(

Yeah, I am. My dealer seems to charge less than many.

You could try a VW dealer for offcycle changes. They'd probably be a little less expensive and they can do it easily.

[Tanner]

Always use anything that meets VW502 specs:

http://static.flickr.com/43/98151080_188302e724_b.jpg

[parks853]

^^ thanks I was looking for that and gave up.

[Hondakiller]

Originally posted by parks853
I'm too stubborn.. I just like doing it myself. It is not that bad. Get some rubber power grip gloves to get the filter loose and use some cardboard to catch the oil from the filter. Other than that same as any car. gotta take the belly pan off, but that is getting to be second nature now.


Very nice idea with the cardboard...LOL WTF is the cap for on the oil filter, I pop it off and then un-screw the canister, and always oil all over the place...so I usually get a bottle of brake cleaner too, so I spray the entire area down to get the oil off....But I like the Cardboard idea and will give it a try....dont they make something that is made to drain the oil out of the canister where the filter sits?

[4-tified]

Originally posted by B7AudiA4
Well, I'm not sure how my warrenty works, but it's 10k and I think it's time that I'm suppose to get an oil change. I called the dealership and they said I shouldn't get it serviced til 15k miles.

I'm thinking I should just take it to a place to do it, and was wonder if I have to use Synthetic oil. I was reading the manual and it said it was prefered, but would regular oil work?

(I bought the car with 6k miles so yeah) I'm really confused on how my warrenty works.

First oil change for a new A4 is at 5000 miles, then all subsequent are done at 10k intervals.

Q: Should you use synthetic oil?
A: Yes.

[Hondakiller]

I wouldn't wait 10k for an oil change if I were you.

[parks853]

Originally posted by Hondakiller
Very nice idea with the cardboard...LOL WTF is the cap for on the oil filter, I pop it off and then un-screw the canister, and always oil all over the place...so I usually get a bottle of brake cleaner too, so I spray the entire area down to get the oil off....But I like the Cardboard idea and will give it a try....dont they make something that is made to drain the oil out of the canister where the filter sits?

Inside that cap is a drain plug. I guess it can be pushed in to drain the oil. I dont like to take any chances. Just get your oil in the cardboard case, and cut the cardboard and make it fit in there in a V shape and let the oil drain in the pan. It will fit in there really tight if you get it just right. The cardboard will soak up the oil even if it splashes a little.

*EDIT* - The power grip gloves are the great as well. Defunkt and I could not get his filter loose so I borrowed some from a buddy and got it loose in 2 seconds. They are cloth on the top but have the big rubber palms. They are called power grip and work well.

[parks853]

Originally posted by Hondakiller
I wouldn't wait 10k for an oil change if I were you.

Do yoru own at 5000 miles and then take it to Audi for the 10,000miles since you last service. Dotn wait 10,000miles inbetween.

[4-tified]

Originally posted by Hondakiller
I wouldn't wait 10k for an oil change if I were you.

Well, I am me, and I will wait for 10k. [:D]

I don't like wasting effort, time, and money.
And, I don't like wasting oil when it's not necessary just to satisfy a feeling.

The ONLY way to know if your oil is bad and in need of changing at the interval that you choose is to have the oil tested/analyzed. Autozone, Pepboys, and some online places can do that for relative low cost for those of you that may feel frequent oil changes are necessary.
Audi has the research and has more experience and they decided to go with 10k and offer a warranty as well.

I've owned and driven and maintained cars for over 25 years. I've never encountered an engine that siezed or failed due to longer drain interval oil changes.
This whole idea of needing cheap insurance and making people "feel" as if they are doing good with quicker oil changes came back in the 80's when the "3000" mile quick change places started popping up.
It made oil changes very quick and people LOVED the idea of not having to go to their dealers.
With the oil change came a sticker that said you needed to come back in "3000" miles regardless of how you drive, where you live, what the weather conditions were or any other realistic factor.
It simply said you needed new oil at 3000 miles.
It's now become dogma.

But, to each his own.
It's your choice to do as you please.

However,
Q: Should you use synthetic oil?
A: Yes .
It does what regular oil does, but it does it better and longer. Chicks dig that. [:D]

[parks853]

Originally posted by 4-tified
Well, I am me, and I will wait for 10k. [:D]

I don't like wasting effort, time, and money.
And, I don't like wasting oil when it's not necessary just to satisfy a feeling.

The ONLY way to know if your oil is bad and in need of changing at the interval that you choose is to have the oil tested/analyzed. Autozone, Pepboys, and some online places can do that for relative low cost for those of you that may feel frequent oil changes are necessary.
Audi has the research and has more experience and they decided to go with 10k and offer a warranty as well.

I've owned and driven and maintained cars for over 25 years. I've never encountered an engine that siezed or failed due to longer drain interval oil changes.
This whole idea of needing cheap insurance and making people "feel" as if they are doing good with quicker oil changes came back in the 80's when the "3000" mile quick change places started popping up.
It made oil changes very quick and people LOVED the idea of not having to go to their dealers.
With the oil change came a sticker that said you needed to come back in "3000" miles regardless of how you drive, where you live, what the weather conditions were or any other realistic factor.
It simply said you needed new oil at 3000 miles.
It's now become dogma.

But, to each his own.
It's your choice to do as you please.

However,
Q: Should you use synthetic oil?
A: Yes .
It does what regular oil does, but it does it better and longer. Chicks dig that. [:D]

I'm not going to dig up the data since your mind is set, but there have been people with Audi's have trouble with engine sludge by not changing in between. If my mom was driving my car I probably would not worry, but most of the people here drive them pretty hard and the extra 50 bucks every 5000miles (about 5 months for most peope) is a neccessary precaution and a good idea.

But you are right.. to each is his own.

[mrponline]

parks853 is right for such a minimal cost why would you even contemplate not changing it. Especially if you like to drive your car hard, for the reassurance spend the $50.

My Audi dealer recommends changing the oil every 9000 miles or every 12 months.

I myself owned a B5 A4 1.8T Q and clocked over 100K miles of hard driving and changed the oil every 3000 miles, my dealer always told me im wasting my money but i never had a problem with the engine and even after 100K the engine looked brand new (after removing rocket cover to replace rubber gasket)

[4-tified]

Originally posted by parks853
I'm not going to dig up the data since your mind is set, but there have been people with Audi's have trouble with engine sludge by not changing in between. If my mom was driving my car I probably would not worry, but most of the people here drive them pretty hard and the extra 50 bucks every 5000miles (about 5 months for most peope) is a neccessary precaution and a good idea.

But you are right.. to each is his own.

Yes, I am aware of that problem on SOME of the older A4's.
Those problems were on the older 1.8 turbo engine mainly. Also, the problem was not due to the use of synthetic oil or the lack or changing it regularly.
It was the result of poor design on Audi's part.
Yes, changing the oil sooner on a poor design might help alleviate a sludging problem, but synthetic even helps prevent what causes sludge in the first place.

You have to understand what is causing the sludge issue before you go to the conclusion that 3000 or 5000 mile oil changes are needed.

Again, the ONLY and best way to know if your car is in need of such an early oil change is to have the oil tested at the interval that you choose.

"Precaution" is not fact, it is again a feeling or belief that you are doing something better if you do it more often. Changing you oil sooner than necessary is a waste of time, money, and oil resource.

My mind is only made up due to years of experience and reading on the subject. I don't have my opinion simply based on a singular event.

[4-tified]

Originally posted by mrponline
parks853 is right for such a minimal cost why would you even contemplate not changing it. Especially if you like to drive your car hard, for the reassurance spend the $50.

My Audi dealer recommends changing the oil every 9000 miles or every 12 months.

I myself owned a B5 A4 1.8T Q and clocked over 100K miles of hard driving and changed the oil every 3000 miles, my dealer always told me im wasting my money but i never had a problem with the engine and even after 100K the engine looked brand new (after removing rocket cover to replace rubber gasket)

I'm sure you didn't. However, how much data do you have on people who changed their oil at 5000, 6000, or 10000 miles and didn't have problems either after 100k miles? [:)] You have to have some basis to compare.

BTW, your dealer of course would recommend sooner oil changes, afterall, they stand to make extra money on that matter.
However, for the greater part of knowledge and knowing what the engines can handle, manufacturers engineers are much better at facts than we general driving population types.
Yes, sometimes they don't design things perfectly, but they get it right much more often than not.

Still, if it makes you "feel" better throwing away perfectly good oil without knowing if it's ready to throw away, it's your choice and I won't hate 'cha for it. [;)]

[B7AudiA4]

Okay, makes sense. So if I take it in at 15k for my service, my oil change is free correct? Just making sure.

Because I currently have almost 10.5k on the clock and my next service says at 11,7XX miles on my guage when I push the button.

[INTEGRATION]

Originally posted by Tanner
Always use anything that meets VW502 specs:

http://static.flickr.com/43/98151080_188302e724_b.jpg

Damn, that list isn't as specific as I expected it to be.

I'm one of those mofos that use and swear by Motul 300V. I'm supposing it should be ok so long as I'm using the same weight/viscosity?

[DeMOROlized]

Originally posted by B7AudiA4
Okay, makes sense. So if I take it in at 15k for my service, my oil change is free correct? Just making sure.

Because I currently have almost 10.5k on the clock and my next service says at 11,7XX miles on my guage when I push the button.

Seems like your dealership didn't change the interval from the initial 5k to the subsequent 10k.

When you go in at 117xx they'll tell you to either come back at around 15k or pay for the oil change, because your next scheduled free maintenance will be around 167xx, assuming you did the initial one at around 67xx.

[B7AudiA4]

Got it, alright. I get it now. Appreciate it guys.

[jack_2.0_b7]

just so you know there are no oils the meet the 502 standard and are dino oil


and in my talks to the dealer the cars that had the most sludge problems were cars that were never beat on and driven by old ladies

there is a longer list of oils that meet the standard that list is only about 1/3 the oils the meet the standard

when i find the list i will post it

[parks853]

Originally posted by jack_2.0_b7
just so you know there are no oils the meet the 502 standard and are dino oil


and in my talks to the dealer the cars that had the most sludge problems were cars that were never beat on and driven by old ladies

there is a longer list of oils that meet the standard that list is only about 1/3 the oils the meet the standard

when i find the list i will post it

check here for the list:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104553&perpage=30&pagenumber=1

[bhvrdr]

Originally posted by 4-tified
I'm sure you didn't. However, how much data do you have on people who changed their oil at 5000, 6000, or 10000 miles and didn't have problems either after 100k miles? [:)] You have to have some basis to compare.

BTW, your dealer of course would recommend sooner oil changes, afterall, they stand to make extra money on that matter.
However, for the greater part of knowledge and knowing what the engines can handle, manufacturers engineers are much better at facts than we general driving population types.
Yes, sometimes they don't design things perfectly, but they get it right much more often than not.

Still, if it makes you "feel" better throwing away perfectly good oil without knowing if it's ready to throw away, it's your choice and I won't hate 'cha for it. [;)]

Like you stated, the only way to know is doing oil analysis which I assume you have done then? How does yours look after 10K miles?

Ive seen UOA on the 2.0t with the 502 oil already below flashpoint specs at less than 10K miles. Still a hot motor with a tiny sump like the 1.8t was (actually running a much higher compression). But if your oil analysis look good then heck yes it would be a waste to do more.

The oil sludge issue was not an "old" issue. It was recognized by AoA in 2004...coicidentally just a year or so after they went to "free" 10K mile oil changes when people used to be changing on their own much more frequently even with dino oil (which can be very high quality today).

cheers! Mike

[jack_2.0_b7]

Originally posted by parks853
check here for the list:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104553&perpage=30&pagenumber=1

like i said that is only 1/3 of the list

[parks853]

Originally posted by jack_2.0_b7
just so you know there are no oils the meet the 502 standard and are dino oil


and in my talks to the dealer the cars that had the most sludge problems were cars that were never beat on and driven by old ladies

there is a longer list of oils that meet the standard that list is only about 1/3 the oils the meet the standard

when i find the list i will post it

Oops I looked over most of you post, was not sure if it was english or not. I have horrible grammer and dont always write in full sentences, but that is hard to read.

I still dont know what you are trying to say in the first sentence about the dino oil.

Not trying to be a dick.

[bhvrdr]

Originally posted by parks853
Oops I looked over most of you post, was not sure if it was english or not. I have horrible grammer and dont always write in full sentences, but that is hard to read.

I still dont know what you are trying to say in the first sentence about the dino oil.

Not trying to be a dick.

I think he is just mentioning that technically a dino oil COULD meet vw502 spec so it is not a requirement to be synthetic but none do so it's moot and our only choices are a synthetic at this time.

cheers! Mike

[4-tified]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
Like you stated, the only way to know is doing oil analysis which I assume you have done then? How does yours look after 10K miles?

Ive seen UOA on the 2.0t with the 502 oil already below flashpoint specs at less than 10K miles. Still a hot motor with a tiny sump like the 1.8t was (actually running a much higher compression). But if your oil analysis look good then heck yes it would be a waste to do more.

The oil sludge issue was not an "old" issue. It was recognized by AoA in 2004...coicidentally just a year or so after they went to "free" 10K mile oil changes when people used to be changing on their own much more frequently even with dino oil (which can be very high quality today).

cheers! Mike

Mike,

By "old" I mean it's was an issue with the "older" engine design. Toyota also had a sluging issue in their Camry V6, not much media on that one, surprise! I digress.

My A4 only has 5200 miles on it.
It's going in for it's 5000 mile maintenance/check after Thanksgiving.
Thus, I have not tested the oil.
In fact, I will NOT be testing the oil at 15k, which will be 10k worth of use. Why? Because I am confident that a 10k oil change interval is fine.

My suggestion for testing is for those who "feel" they need to change the oil sooner than Audi says to change it. Staying within the guidelines set by Audi I have no need to test my oil at 10k intervals of use.
If I were going to go to 15k intervals then YES I would test at 10k to see what's really up with the oil at that point.
Also, if I were going to potentially waste good oil at 5k miles I would also have my oil tested to make it's worth the effort and money.

I'm sticking with the manufacturers schedule thus I feel no need to test the oil. The only reason I would do it would be for curiosity. So, in that regard, I think that I will have the oil tested at 5k and 10k.
But, you guys should remind me. [:D]
I don't mind spending the cash to give everyone a little data. It'll be interesting to find out anyway.

I have a LOT of confidence in synthetic oils and their longer drain intervals.
I started using synthetic in 1992 with my second turbo engined car. It was a Mits/Plymouth
Eclipse/Laser turbo on which I installed a 16G turbo, quite sweet I must say. [:D]

[4-tified]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
Like you stated, the only way to know is doing oil analysis which I assume you have done then? How does yours look after 10K miles?

Ive seen UOA on the 2.0t with the 502 oil already below flashpoint specs at less than 10K miles. Still a hot motor with a tiny sump like the 1.8t was (actually running a much higher compression). But if your oil analysis look good then heck yes it would be a waste to do more.

The oil sludge issue was not an "old" issue. It was recognized by AoA in 2004...coicidentally just a year or so after they went to "free" 10K mile oil changes when people used to be changing on their own much more frequently even with dino oil (which can be very high quality today).

cheers! Mike

Flashpoint lowering would indicate a higher oil loss due to burn off. However, that's not detrimental to the engine, unless of course one burned off so much oil and neglected to keep it filled and the engine starved for oil. Not very likely.
One of the great things about synthetic is it's near to 0 ash content. Even at the flashpoint where conventional oil would burn and potentially leave carbon deposits (coking), synthetic won't leave any.

In the analysis I would be concerned about how much solids are in the oil ,and if the additives are still viable enough to keep the viscosity within range.

If anything I wish we had better filtration, that would really help with oil life and viability.

[A4Shizl]

$49 for motul at Ecode..

[B7AudiA4]

Originally posted by A4Shizl
$49 for motul at Ecode..

Really?
I doubt it's really that cheap...

[bhvrdr]

Originally posted by 4-tified
Mike,

By "old" I mean it's was an issue with the "older" engine design. Toyota also had a sluging issue in their Camry V6, not much media on that one, surprise! I digress.

My A4 only has 5200 miles on it.
It's going in for it's 5000 mile maintenance/check after Thanksgiving.
Thus, I have not tested the oil.
In fact, I will NOT be testing the oil at 15k, which will be 10k worth of use. Why? Because I am confident that a 10k oil change interval is fine.

My suggestion for testing is for those who "feel" they need to change the oil sooner than Audi says to change it. Staying within the guidelines set by Audi I have no need to test my oil at 10k intervals of use.
If I were going to go to 15k intervals then YES I would test at 10k to see what's really up with the oil at that point.
Also, if I were going to potentially waste good oil at 5k miles I would also have my oil tested to make it's worth the effort and money.

I'm sticking with the manufacturers schedule thus I feel no need to test the oil. The only reason I would do it would be for curiosity. So, in that regard, I think that I will have the oil tested at 5k and 10k.
But, you guys should remind me. [:D]
I don't mind spending the cash to give everyone a little data. It'll be interesting to find out anyway.

I have a LOT of confidence in synthetic oils and their longer drain intervals.
I started using synthetic in 1992 with my second turbo engined car. It was a Mits/Plymouth
Eclipse/Laser turbo on which I installed a 16G turbo, quite sweet I must say. [:D]

I'm not trying to rag on you or anything but you did propose that the only way to know how long the oil is good for each application is an oil analysis which I agree with and i'm suprised you are without exception advocating 10K changes without having done them.

Todays sythetics still can burn off and leave oxidizing deposits. They are not exempt from this.

On the 1.8t, there are many many used oil analysis found on www.bobistheoilguy.com using very high quality 502 oils like M1 and Motul showing Total Base Numbers of less than 2 after only 7500miles. Oils that are spent. It has little to do with the oils. The same high quality synthetic could perhaps go 20K miles in a huge sump Porsche Cayenne or my S4 that takes 10qts of oil. But in these small high revving and hot turbo motors oil temps of 250 degrees are not uncommon which will half the life of an oil for every 15-18 degrees above 212 degrees effectivelty taking a 15K mile oil and turning it into a 5K mile oil.

Again, keep in mind AoA used to suggest 100K mile timing belt intervals too, until they popped early and then they mysteriously changed the manuals to suggest 75K mile intervals for it. And they also used to suggest much shorter oil change intervals until the "free" maintenance that was provided at 10K mile intervals. After that....the sludge letter and sludge warranty.

I'm not suggesting everyone to 5K mile changes but I absolutely would do a UOA at 5K and 7500, and 10K prior to suggesting that 10K is ok for that specific driver and car. Luckily a couple have done this at the aforementioned sight and the results are not always as perfect as some might think.



cheers! Mike