chip,CAI,full exhaust and test pipe.

[audidub]

chip,CAI,full exhaust and test pipe. ( mods i plan 2 do)

How much WHP can i get with proper tuning?

[tna4z]

Someone just posted that with chip, exhaust, and test pipe, they got 213hp/250tq to the wheels. It was in the "anyone added a chip to their car" thread or something. So add an intake, maybe slightly more than that.

[evoic]

With chip (100 OCTANE FILE), CAI, Test pipe, and exhaust.....my guess would put you in the 290-300HP / 330-350TQ range, but remember......if you're running Quattro - you're losing approx. 22-25% to the wheels and most would consider this a conservative estimate.

When you hop on a dyno, those numbers will turn into 220WHP / 265TQ.
.
.

[bhvrdr]

I gained 0 hp with a full 2.75" exhaust. Intake may be worth 5hp as it did show gains in air volume going in. Otherwise you are looking at very similar numbers as to just a chipped car. This is also shown in the 1/4 mile database with a chipped only car sitting on the best time. You'll need at least a testpipe and 100octane to get much better numbers.

cheers! Mike

[TJHUB]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
I gained 0 hp with a full 2.75" exhaust. Intake may be worth 5hp as it did show gains in air volume going in. Otherwise you are looking at very similar numbers as to just a chipped car. This is also shown in the 1/4 mile database with a chipped only car sitting on the best time. You'll need at least a testpipe and 100octane to get much better numbers.

cheers! Mike

Just so you know, I think it's great that you were able to test the effects of the CAI and exhaust separately. It's valuable information to those of us that don't want to add loud things like exhaust and CAI.

The only reason I say this is that I did all of those things to my B5 and they took away from the car. First I installed a Borla v2 exhaust and absolutely hated it. It made me hate the car. TOO LOUD! I won't even get started on the droning... Then came the PES T-28 kit. Sure the power was great, but the car sounded like an industrial vacuum cleaner. Most thought is sounded really cool, I didn't like it. I don't mind a car that has a performance growl with a deep tone, or even a car that's louder when you're on the throttle hard, but for normal driving it's just not me.

I decided when I got the B7 I was not going to do anything to make this car sound like that. That's why my car will never see and exhaust or CAI because of the insignificant gains you get with all the added noise.

Don't get me wrong, I understand this is subjective and MANY will disagree. [;)]

[rds0000]

TJHUB, you sound like an adult type like myself (no offense anyone), and if you do decide to do an exhaust, the Milltek is really nice. No drone, barely louder than stock, nice OEM fit. The intake is a bit noisy but thats a taste/tolerance thing. I would say there has been some aggressive two-way on this (hp gains exhaust) and you could find evidence to support whatever it is you ultimately want. The ECU upgrade (not associating any brand)is a must. APR allows control through the cruise stalk, which is handy for service appts IMO.

[TJHUB]

Yeah, I'm getting a little on the old side...38. [eek] I'm definately doing the ECU flash and I think it's going to be APR. I'll do it during the next APR sale.

I'm leaving my mods at jsut the flash. I may install coilovers in spring, but I'm desparately trying to leave this car stock as I want a B8 when they become available. Or, at least I think I want a B8.

[rds0000]

I dont think of it as old (38 too), i think of it as easier to buy stuff for my cars. I have APR, and i enjoy the difference. I had a B5 S4 Avant and there was a lot more available to do. Cars are my porn,and i love porn, or cars, you know what i mean.

[4-tified]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
I gained 0 hp with a full 2.75" exhaust. Intake may be worth 5hp as it did show gains in air volume going in. Otherwise you are looking at very similar numbers as to just a chipped car. This is also shown in the 1/4 mile database with a chipped only car sitting on the best time. You'll need at least a testpipe and 100octane to get much better numbers.

cheers! Mike

You say, "...may be worth 5 hp..." for the intake.
If you dyno'd it did it or did it not show?

Also, how did you get a reading for a "volume" increase with the intake? Did you also get boost pressure readings with that?

The engine's volume capacity is set physically and does not change under standard atmosphere.
Turbo's make the change due to pressurizing the air into the fixed volume of the cylinders.

The ONLY way to know if power increases were there is to show the change in base power on the same dyno the same day. Also, performance on the track could show power increases, but the atmospheric conditions and track conditions would have to be the same before and after then change as well to get a real sense of any power gains.

If you test a stock turbo car on a hot 98F with 80% humidity and get 15 sec. 1/4 mile, then a month later add a new intake and go to the track where it's now 60F and 40% humidity, your performance should gain. However, it's harder to tell if that's atmosphere and track condition vs. the intake.

I still believe that 5-10hp changes are minor and are hard for most to detect, especially in a turbo engined car. As many of you have experienced with turbo's, when the temps drop under 40F these cars really do feel more powerful

[TJHUB]

Originally posted by rds0000
I dont think of it as old (38 too), i think of it as easier to buy stuff for my cars. I have APR, and i enjoy the difference. I had a B5 S4 Avant and there was a lot more available to do. Cars are my porn,and i love porn, or cars, you know what i mean.

I don't think of 38 as old either, but you do start looking at things differently. Let's change "old" to "more mature". [up]

I completely understand your statement, who doesn't love "porn"? [;)]

[rds0000]

Speaking of porn, that turbo upgrade is starting to grow on me.

[bhvrdr]

Originally posted by 4-tified
You say, "...may be worth 5 hp..." for the intake.
If you dyno'd it did it or did it not show?

Also, how did you get a reading for a "volume" increase with the intake? Did you also get boost pressure readings with that?

The engine's volume capacity is set physically and does not change under standard atmosphere.
Turbo's make the change due to pressurizing the air into the fixed volume of the cylinders.

The ONLY way to know if power increases were there is to show the change in base power on the same dyno the same day. Also, performance on the track could show power increases, but the atmospheric conditions and track conditions would have to be the same before and after then change as well to get a real sense of any power gains.

If you test a stock turbo car on a hot 98F with 80% humidity and get 15 sec. 1/4 mile, then a month later add a new intake and go to the track where it's now 60F and 40% humidity, your performance should gain. However, it's harder to tell if that's atmosphere and track condition vs. the intake.

I still believe that 5-10hp changes are minor and are hard for most to detect, especially in a turbo engined car. As many of you have experienced with turbo's, when the temps drop under 40F these cars really do feel more powerful

I say "maybe 5hp" because the way to test an intake is by measuring what it does...if it allows greater intake air mass into the motor measured in grams per second. Dynoing will not reproduce airflow conditions on the road and dynoing 10hp mods is very very difficult since I can show 10hp variances dynoing my car stock over 10 runs. So what I measured is increases in air mass before and after the intake. I saw gains of 13g/s on average. To give you an example of what that measures against, when going from a fully tuned K03 turbo to a K04 turbo I saw gains of about 25g/s. Now on big turbo applications several members now are seeing over 30g/s gains so the intake seems to work better the more power the car is making.

But as far as exhaust was concerened there were NO gains. In fact there were small losses that were not statistically significant and likely due to dyno variances althoug we correct for ambient, tire pressure, strap location, fan location, etc.

cheers! Mike

[audidub]

so im gonna loose performance? wtf?

[SixthGear]

This exhaust business is a real hassle, you never know who's a salesman online.

We really need to organize a serious comparison, on video, with dB meter, to categorize exhausts. Drone should definitely be taken into account. The two YouTube videos already up are an excellent start, but they need to include in-car sound when taking off and driving too.

I'm I guess what you would call a "mature" Audi owner, having done away with my big noise phase. I've been looking to get an exhaust but it hasn't been easy. Everyone says something different.

I had the Neuspeed and the drone at takeoff and on the highway at low RPMs was annoying enough for me to remove it.

Everyone at the shop told me there were hp gains, and that particularly in the high RPMs the stock exhaust chokes the car. This would seem to imply more hp at the top end of the RPMs.

Are you guys disputing this? Does the exhaust offer only negligible gains?

I'd love for someone who actually knows to tell me what exhaust has no resonant drone in the cabin at low RPM. Miltek? APR? Is the Neuspeed considered quiet and I'm just screwed?

Any help would be appreciated guys.

P.S. Does this mean a K04 could be added without upgrading the exhaust and that you would see no noticeable difference in performance between K04 and K04+Exhaust? It just seems so unlikely...

[rds0000]

Originally posted by rds0000
TJHUB, you sound like an adult type like myself (no offense anyone), and if you do decide to do an exhaust, the Milltek is really nice. No drone, barely louder than stock, nice OEM fit. The intake is a bit noisy but thats a taste/tolerance thing. I would say there has been some aggressive two-way on this (hp gains exhaust) and you could find evidence to support whatever it is you ultimately want. The ECU upgrade (not associating any brand)is a must. APR allows control through the cruise stalk, which is handy for service appts IMO.

[TJHUB]

Originally posted by SixthGear
This exhaust business is a real hassle, you never know who's a salesman online.

We really need to organize a serious comparison, on video, with dB meter, to categorize exhausts. Drone should definitely be taken into account. The two YouTube videos already up are an excellent start, but they need to include in-car sound when taking off and driving too.

I'm I guess what you would call a "mature" Audi owner, having done away with my big noise phase. I've been looking to get an exhaust but it hasn't been easy. Everyone says something different.

I had the Neuspeed and the drone at takeoff and on the highway at low RPMs was annoying enough for me to remove it.

Everyone at the shop told me there were hp gains, and that particularly in the high RPMs the stock exhaust chokes the car. This would seem to imply more hp at the top end of the RPMs.

Are you guys disputing this? Does the exhaust offer only negligible gains?

I'd love for someone who actually knows to tell me what exhaust has no resonant drone in the cabin at low RPM. Miltek? APR? Is the Neuspeed considered quiet and I'm just screwed?

Any help would be appreciated guys.

P.S. Does this mean a K04 could be added without upgrading the exhaust and that you would see no noticeable difference in performance between K04 and K04+Exhaust? It just seems so unlikely...

Unfortunately what rds0000 is saying is that you're like us. It seems you're very sensative to loud exhausts, especially droning exhausts.

You won't get a straight answer from anyone as this is way too subjective of a subject. I followed exhaust threads for months before I chose my exhaust for my B5. EVERYONE said the Borla exhaust didn't drone, BULL...LONEY! The droning was so bad from 2,800 - 3,500 rpm, you couldn't have a normal conversation with a passenger while driving normally. When driving the car hard (zipping past the droning rpms), the exhaust sounded just fine. Cruising at any speed, fine. I had it on the car about six weeks and sold it. The guys at AWE-Tuning couldn't believe that I was complaining about droning and even offered to take it back. The guys at AWE are the best, period.

Anyway, I always wished that I had gone with the Miltek on my B5. However, there are a few guys that'll complain about fitment issues. I even had issues with my Borla fitment. It was nothing a little cutting and bending didn't take care of. However, everytime the exhaust heated up, it grew about 3/4" in length due the the stainless steel and caused body contact in the rain or when the bottom of the exhaust contacted water and cooled. Sounds stupid I know, but it's something I will not deal with again. It made the car something less for me and I hated that.

I had a PES T-28 kit on my B5 towards the end. When I first purchased the kit, I asked what size exhaust I should get. The guys at PES said none, stick with the stock exhaust. I even asked about a high-flow cat (sorry, but it's flat wrong to run a test pipe on a street car - morally speaking) and they even told me not to waste my money. Why? Because their dyno testing showed at most a 10-15 hp gain with a high-flow AND 2.75" cat-back exhaust. I think the info is still somewhere on their website. Note that I was pushing 24 psi with a T-28 turbo which is a lot more air than any K03 or K04 will push, and the hp numbers were about 300+ at the crank for the 1.8T and stock exhaust.

One other comment I'll make is that when I removed the Borla, I of course had to go back to that ugly stock muffler. So I had a Magnaflow #14862 muffler installed on the stock exhaust. It looks perfect and sounds awesome. It has a deep rumble, absolutely no droning, and sounds mean when the new owner drives off (from OUTSIDE and in the rear of the car, not from the inside of the car).

You know what's a good exhaust? The stock one. [;)]

Disclaimer: This is of course just my opinion. [:p]

[bhvrdr]

Originally posted by SixthGear
T

We really need to organize a serious comparison, on video, with dB meter, to categorize exhausts. Drone should definitely be taken into account. The two YouTube videos already up are an excellent start, but they need to include in-car sound when taking off and driving too.



Everyone at the shop told me there were hp gains, and that particularly in the high RPMs the stock exhaust chokes the car. This would seem to imply more hp at the top end of the RPMs.

Are you guys disputing this? Does the exhaust offer only negligible gains?



Here you go...

http://www.mjbmotorsport.com/id80.html

cheers! Mike

[SixthGear]

Thanks to both TJHUB and Mike for the excellent responses. It's very much appreciated!

[4-tified]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
I say "maybe 5hp" because the way to test an intake is by measuring what it does...if it allows greater intake air mass into the motor measured in grams per second. Dynoing will not reproduce airflow conditions on the road and dynoing 10hp mods is very very difficult since I can show 10hp variances dynoing my car stock over 10 runs. So what I measured is increases in air mass before and after the intake. I saw gains of 13g/s on average. To give you an example of what that measures against, when going from a fully tuned K03 turbo to a K04 turbo I saw gains of about 25g/s. Now on big turbo applications several members now are seeing over 30g/s gains so the intake seems to work better the more power the car is making.

But as far as exhaust was concerened there were NO gains. In fact there were small losses that were not statistically significant and likely due to dyno variances althoug we correct for ambient, tire pressure, strap location, fan location, etc.

cheers! Mike

Mike,

I have to disagree on the end game of dyno'ing.
Yes, IF you have a "ram air" type setup then at speed conditions are hard to measure while on a static dyno.
However, if it's a simple "cold air" type setup, or if it uses the stock setup, I doubt there is any "ram air" effect. Also, a turbo engine's plumbing will make any small ram air effects pointless.

How large would a "ram air" setup need to be, and how fast would the vehicle need to go to pressurize the intake above stock boost psi of the turbo?
I don't see a "carbonio" intake doing anything in terms of ram air, or even a CAI with the filter set down below the engine, where there would be even less "ram air' effect.

The ONLY proof than an intake, or any engine performance part, is improving performance is
on the dyno, the same dyno.
Test for baseline, install the part, do a few more runs.
Average them out and if there is a trend it will show.

You did before and after intake air flow on the dyno? You say it showed greater airflow. If that airflow was positive to power production then it should have showed on the dyno.

Also, you seem to imply that the added air flow can be correalated to power increases, as you say the added air flow of an intake (not sure which one) corresponds to nearly 1/2 the power gain from a tuned K03 to K04 setup?
You didn't say power gain, I did. However, your comment implies that increased air mass corelates
to power increases and you compare air mass to power differences between a tuned K03 and K04.

I've seen that the more "tuned" an engine becomes, yes, the more it relys on being able to breathe in and out.
The IC engine is an "air pump", and the more air you pump in you also want to pump out.
It's all a balancing act depending on how you want the engine to respond.

Many stock engines, stock tune, don't like freer exhausts as it can negatively affect the stock tuning.
Top manufacturer engineers do know what they are doing afterall. [;)]

[bhvrdr]

Originally posted by 4-tified
Mike,

I have to disagree on the end game of dyno'ing.
Yes, IF you have a "ram air" type setup then at speed conditions are hard to measure while on a static dyno.
However, if it's a simple "cold air" type setup, or if it uses the stock setup, I doubt there is any "ram air" effect. Also, a turbo engine's plumbing will make any small ram air effects pointless.

How large would a "ram air" setup need to be, and how fast would the vehicle need to go to pressurize the intake above stock boost psi of the turbo?
I don't see a "carbonio" intake doing anything in terms of ram air, or even a CAI with the filter set down below the engine, where there would be even less "ram air' effect.

The ONLY proof than an intake, or any engine performance part, is improving performance is
on the dyno, the same dyno.
Test for baseline, install the part, do a few more runs.
Average them out and if there is a trend it will show.

You did before and after intake air flow on the dyno? You say it showed greater airflow. If that airflow was positive to power production then it should have showed on the dyno.

Also, you seem to imply that the added air flow can be correalated to power increases, as you say the added air flow of an intake (not sure which one) corresponds to nearly 1/2 the power gain from a tuned K03 to K04 setup?
You didn't say power gain, I did. However, your comment implies that increased air mass corelates
to power increases and you compare air mass to power differences between a tuned K03 and K04.

I've seen that the more "tuned" an engine becomes, yes, the more it relys on being able to breathe in and out.
The IC engine is an "air pump", and the more air you pump in you also want to pump out.
It's all a balancing act depending on how you want the engine to respond.

Many stock engines, stock tune, don't like freer exhausts as it can negatively affect the stock tuning.
Top manufacturer engineers do know what they are doing afterall. [;)]

The stock filter and the Carbonio both utilize the factory "ram air" location which feeds air down an intake tube from the front of the vehicle behind the grille.

You mention the "only" test for an intake is on the dyno?

I'm not sure I agree with this at all. Intake testing and design is not primarily weeded out on the dyno at all even by top manufacturers. It's done on computer flow models and on flow benches. For example, carbonio utilizes advanced computer flow modeling. This isnt a lot different than what Audi does.

Using a dyno can lend very very skewed results on 5hp mods. For example, on my fully chipped K03 car it looked as though the car lost power and torque when adding the Milltek HFC on top of the Neuspeed exhaust.

Stock v NS exhaust...
http://www.mjbmotorsport.com/id80.html

NS Exhaust v NS exhaust + Milltek/HJS 200cpsi HFC....
http://www.mjbmotorsport.com/id81.html

In actuality the difference in power was negligible but variance will show little bits of power differences like that. This is assuming you are crazy about dynoing and literally mark the precise location for fans, tie downs, have exact same ambient conditions or can correct, exact same tire pressure, same approximate number or miles on the oil in the car (sure, an oil can thin down and even produce 2 more hp) etc, etc, etc and then you still will have dyno variance. So measuring that 5hp gain on the dyno to me is a little bit of BS. I'm not saying people wont post nice little advertisements of their intake making 5 or 10hp but would you really trust that knowing you can easily see 5hp of variance from run to run with no changes made to the car at all?

Now, i'm not saying that a dyno would be worthless at all. Just that I would not rely upon it as my most important data point much less my "only" one just as car manufactuerers dont when developing their intake systems.

What I did when looking at the intake performance was measure what it is actually designed to do. I measured the grams/second of airflow. In addition the intake air temperatures, boost and timning. I then looked at an average of the airflow (and other vairables) prior to adding the intake and after adding it. I then compared these numbers to the results other buddies were seeing in different areas of the country and finally what other people were seeing with big turbo setups on the 1.8t. This way I was not relying on one piece of data. For example, APR claimed they were seeing an increase of 30g/s on their stage 3+ cars. Now without anyone knowing precisely what their claims to me were, I spoke with two stage 3+ owners who both reported to me over 30g/s gains independently. This is good that thier data matched. I was also told to expect about half that for a K03 application. This is almost precisely what I got.

Yes, I was mentioning that added airflow is a positive thing. Does it correlate with more power? Of course it does. Fuel and air. More of both makes power. That's afterall why we like turbocharging right? No, I didnt try and state a precise formula because I dont know of one nor do I think it would be very easy to make one. MAF meters change in size on many big turbo apps which makes the readings not comparable, but sure we know that added airflow is an ingredient for more power.

So, im pretty happy with the results.

cheers! Mike

[SixthGear]

My next question:

Would a K04 turbo be significantly hampered by the lack of an aftermarket intake and exhaust?

If I buy the K04, install it and the program(s), but leave the stock intake and exhaust, will I have lost my money?

Or is it possible to still get 80% or more of the benefits of the K04 with stock parts?

[bhvrdr]

You can run the K04 on stock exhaust and intake. It'll still make gains. To save a bit of cash i'd run the included testpipe on the stock exhaust and there you'd probably have 95% of it's potential. cheers! mike

[evoic]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
You can run the K04 on stock exhaust and intake. It'll still make gains. To save a bit of cash i'd run the included testpipe on the stock exhaust and there you'd probably have 95% of it's potential. cheers! mike

[up] [up] [up] [up] [up] [up] [up]

[TJHUB]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
You can run the K04 on stock exhaust and intake. It'll still make gains. To save a bit of cash i'd run the included testpipe on the stock exhaust and there you'd probably have 95% of it's potential. cheers! mike

Listen to this man, he's very smart. [;)]

Seriously, having modified my B5 as far as I did, I just don't buy into the exhaust mod BS. I think the stock exhaust systems are plently large for such small motors. I suspect that a stock exhaust is large enough until you get into some much larger turbos, and a K04 is still a small turbo.

There is no doubt that the cat on these cars is by far the most restrictive component on the exhaust. High-flow cats more than likely would still be the most restrictive component. If you must, a test pipe would allow you to get near maximum potential from a K04. Sure larger exhuasts help, but very minimally over stock when speaking in performance terms.

Here's a pic of my old K04 vs the T-28 I had in my B5:

http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/6850K04_vs_T-28.JPG

[SixthGear]

Thanks again for the great responses guys. Willing to take a stab at what the percentage would be without the test pipe?

[audidub]

so...how much whp will u get? ...thread jacked!!

[Audi Skate Snow]

just with revo software my b7 put down 210 to the wheels and 259 tq to the wheels. stock exhaust stock cat.

so if your making onl 213whp with everything then there is a problem.

[bhvrdr]

Originally posted by Audi Skate Snow
just with revo software my b7 put down 210 to the wheels and 259 tq to the wheels. stock exhaust stock cat.

so if your making onl 213whp with everything then there is a problem.

You cant accurately compare two different dyno sheets from two different cars and two different tynos. They could be easily 20whp off from each other at even these lower power levels.

cheers! Mike