Tried several chips here is my info on them (LONG)

[Bronco]

What a great write up. This should be a sticky! I have been researching a chip for awhile and this made such a difference in my attitude towards them.

Thanks for the help!

[craiglieberman]

I'm confused...as a person with 27 years tuning experience, I must've missed the link to independent dyno sheets validating/disproving claims on power.

I also disagree that chips are the last place people should be looking for power.

On a car where so far, only a cat back exhaust has been proven to make power across the rpm board with no sacrifices and with the virtual non existence of any meaningful mods, chips are the first and virtually ONLY place we have to look for mods.

I've yet to see a vendor come on here and post INDEPENDENT dyno sheets on all of the commercially available chips on the same car, same dyno.

Until that happens, my experience in this industry tells me that no one will ever fully answer the debate.

Further, I disagree that adjusting throttle sensitivity is a useless proposition...it certainly enhances the driving experience. However, ultimately, dyno numbers are the most important validation.

If we've learned one thing from this thread it is that a lack of credible, independent testing under identical conditions is casting doubts on the validity of ALL the chip manufacturers.

I hope it gets sorted out.

[Justincredible]

Its been all sorted out and gone over and verified.

If your looking for dyno info, its been shown time and time again that the dyno info provided by the manufacture of the chip can be different from the dyno the end user will find.

As for someone that ran a dyno for several years, you can tell how well rounded someones perspective of information is, biased off how they perceive a dyno, as the dyno only tells one side of the story and its not a complete story.

This posts was and did find out what went on behind the chip. As someone that "claims" to have 27 years of tuning experience, I find it odd that your unable to see the greater value into the dynamics of the behind the seenss chips.

Lets take this time to point this out then now. Anyone that will claim they needdynoo if for "credible info" is not looking out for your better interests.

Lets say XXX tuner claims the biggest Hp #'s and that is what most people look for. Ok so lets say the dyno verifies this. Lets say you bought the highest hp chip there was......

is it really the best tune?
is it safe?
has your car been put at risk?
can this tune damage motor parts
Is my timing ok for lesser oct?
Is this chip consistent?
Why would one tune be much slower then the others on the street but Feel faster?

All the above is NOT shown on a dyno but these are more important (to sum, me included)


This post is not billed up as POWER Numbers for chips. If you are looking for that then. You can read and see the large difference from claimed #'s
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...highlightdynoo

[SkiWalk3r]

+ 1 to Justincredible for following the scientific method. As always, great info and another post from you that has helped me in my decision making.

[beemercer]

+ 1 to Justincredible for following the scientific method. As always, great info and another post from you that has helped me in my decision making.

This one works better...




(stole this from someone on here, it was too good to pass up).

[jfunkey]

I'm confused...as a person with 27 years tuning experience, I must've missed the link to independent dyno sheets validating/disproving claims on power.

I also disagree that chips are the last place people should be looking for power.

On a car where so far, only a cat back exhaust has been proven to make power across the rpm board with no sacrifices and with the virtual non existence of any meaningful mods, chips are the first and virtually ONLY place we have to look for mods.

I've yet to see a vendor come on here and post INDEPENDENT dyno sheets on all of the commercially available chips on the same car, same dyno.

Until that happens, my experience in this industry tells me that no one will ever fully answer the debate.

Further, I disagree that adjusting throttle sensitivity is a useless proposition...it certainly enhances the driving experience. However, ultimately, dyno numbers are the most important validation.

If we've learned one thing from this thread it is that a lack of credible, independent testing under identical conditions is casting doubts on the validity of ALL the chip manufacturers.

I hope it gets sorted out.

WOW well comming from me. Someone that tunes LS and LT1 2 cars for years. If your looking for dyno sheets for good information about chips. its because you don't know where to look our possibily how to aprechate the info given.

IF you trully tune cars you will know the completely valuable info that was shared given the info he was able to gather. You can make more horse power but if your on the knock sensor limmits and pinging the cylinders to do it that is not going to come up in a dyno sheet.

[NY07RS4]

[Great info Justin, I appreciate you taking the time to post your findings. This is certainly valuable info.

I think the person named Craiglieberman was trying to say that he would have put more faith so to speak in your findings if it were done in a more controlled environment. (I can't speak for this person, nor do I know him). This is just simply my interpretation of his post. The reason I percieved his post the way I explained is simply because the majority of product comparisons are typically done in a somewhat controlled environment. Like tire comparisons for motorcycles (one motorcycle, one rider, one track, same day etc, multiple tires swapped). Know what I mean? With that said, I still value the info you provided. I myself would love it if an independent third party tested all the available chips on a single car, same driver, same track, same dyno etc. This would just help me personally make an informed purchase.

None-the-less, good job.

[jfunkey]

They did a independent test. There were 2 shoot outs back in the day

test one APR came out top at the time GIAC finnished last.
Then one of the contestents (GIAC) complained and demamded a retest. They held a retest at AWE a standup but still completly GIAC Bias company. Give you 3 guesses what the results were this time... GIAC was top and APR was last.

Then there are links after links of shady companys dynoing other peoples software. The not exactly stand up company ASP dynoed an APR chip and said it made less then stock sure only to sell there tune. weeks later the same thing happened at ASP with a GIAC chip wonder why. You can't trust ANY of these guys. since then the guy that got shammed into the ASP chip went on line and said how he was shammed and the ASP chip was worse then stock.

APR GIAC etc etc. All make a great product. for some the dyno has all the answers for others its street proof or bust.

Being someone that has used Edit software on the LT and LS cars this speaks loud with usfull info. we always want more and we all have our own thought of what is and is not needed. I think we should just take it for what it had offered us

Im all for dyno info but what is the point of that in this situation. Its like taking a picture of a REALL nice looking house from the out side. But then finding out that the structure is not solid or safe (kinda like having a dangerious chip. good on the dyno bad over all)

From what I read this post had NOTHING to do with hprse power numbers so that would be an invalid point.

I would say the guy (justin) would know a good thing when he sees it as he still has the fastest MPH for an automatic car.

[Tek4ever]

Sorry, this is a long read but since we're sharing, I felt obligated...

I didn't have VAG to gather logs back when I had the GIAC flashes (two different 93 octane files and the race file) so I can't provide any logs. Since I was not satisfied with the first flash, I immediately announced my disappointment with the authorized dealer...Dubwerks in Libertyville, IL. I know they are a busy shop, but I feel they could do a better job responding to voice-mails or emails.

By the time I was able to get another appointment to try GIAC's 2nd flash, I announced my continued disappointment with the 2nd flash and tried getting a refund, but was well past the 30 days. If anyone has done business w/ Dubwerks I think you'll understand my frustration with them. Never answering their phone and very late in responding to voice-mails or emails. I know I've seen other posts regarding Dubwerks in the regional section, saying basically the same thing.

So I tried emailing GIAC and was denied...Below is the email and response.

Hi John,

You can send me your VIN so that I can check your flash history, but we
would be unable to extend a refund option due to the time frame. My
apologies for the delayed response as I was out of town from Thursday to
Tuesday this past weekend.

Best Regards,

Tek4ever wrote:
> Sales or Support:
>
>
> I purchased the GIAC race and pump program almost two months ago and would like to request my money back. I know I am passed the 30 days but with constantly late responses and lately no response from Dub Werks, I feel my request is reasonable. I expected better quarter mile times/performance with the pump file and actually had performed even slower with the race file. Both times I used above 100 octane. I also expected my rev limit to be increased to later learn that request must be made and would also void my warranty.
>
> I can be quickly reached at 555.555.5555 if you are available to respond live. Please respond as soon as possible.
>
>
> My Name
> My Info
> More of my Info...
>
> P 555.555.5555
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> NOTICE & DISCLAIMER:
> You cannot bind, alter or cancel coverage without speaking to an authorized representative of My Company. Coverage cannot be bound without written confirmation from an authorized representative of My Company. This email and any files transmitted with it is not encrypted and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or entity, or believe that you may have received this email in error, please alert the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this e-mail message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or storage of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited.
> --------------------------------------------------------
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>


--
Austin Wyly
Associate Sales and Marketing
www.GIACUSA.com



So with $1000 bucks spent, it was hard for me to spend a penny more with anyone else. But after reading constantly with more and more people trying the JHM chip and being happy, I decided to give them a shot and absolutely love it.

If anyone wants a GIAC handheld switcher for...FREE, shoot me a PM...it's yours!

[NY07RS4]

J-funkey, understand your point completely. I too feel the other variables (safe chip characteristics in the map etc) are important, in fact I think they are more important than actual HP numbers. I should have added that to my initial post.

[jfunkey]

Bro your aces for sure and Im with you. Im just putting it out there for the fact I thought the one post from Craiglieberman was not just short sided bud void of any real point.

It was... 27years....I feel... I dissagree....and I feel...and I feel...and My opinion....So after all the talk he offered nothing to help and tried to push his opinion. IMHO empty post short sided offered no help and to do this when there is info shared is just short of a waste.

I look at it like this. for those that know this helped..for those that pretend to know you get the above statment from Craiglieberman. If he wants to share his thoughs Ill share mine

Its this simple ANY info when looking to make or to grade a tune is good info. Take what you can from it and move on. Some will take more from this then others and some will not be ablt to take anything at all. That is the difference between getting in the game and sitting on the side line. You can talk all day about what you didnt get.. or you can take what you got and move forward.

But thats how it is. There is always that one dude that has nothing more to share then his OPINION of the facts.

[Redundant]

Justin GREAT info and thanks for all the great threads you've started! I want to see the performance you end up getting out of this engine/car!

Just so everyone knows, Craig Lieberman is the guy that has had two or more cars in Fast and the Furious (Supra (FF1),Skyline (FF2) if I remember correctly) and is widely known in the BMW community. I am pretty certain he has also worked for or with an exhaust company. Also hes a really cool guy, very into cars and very approachable from what I can recall.. even though I never talked to him personally.

[jfunkey]

Justin GREAT info and thanks for all the great threads you've started! I want to see the performance you end up getting out of this engine/car!

Just so everyone knows, Craig Lieberman is the guy that has had two or more cars in Fast and the Furious (Supra (FF1),Skyline (FF2) if I remember correctly) and is widely known in the BMW community.

Well it seems having your cars in movies dosn't make you any smarter about cars or tuning

[SKareKrow]

Well it seems having your cars in movies dosn't make you any smarter about cars or tuning

"If we've learned one thing from this thread"... That is it.

[craiglieberman]

Its been all sorted out and gone over and verified.

If your looking for dyno info, its been shown time and time again that the dyno info provided by the manufacture of the chip can be different from the dyno the end user will find.

As for someone that ran a dyno for several years, you can tell how well rounded someones perspective of information is, biased off how they perceive a dyno, as the dyno only tells one side of the story and its not a complete story.

This posts was and did find out what went on behind the chip. As someone that "claims" to have 27 years of tuning experience, I find it odd that your unable to see the greater value into the dynamics of the behind the seenss chips.

Lets take this time to point this out then now. Anyone that will claim they needdynoo if for "credible info" is not looking out for your better interests.

Lets say XXX tuner claims the biggest Hp #'s and that is what most people look for. Ok so lets say the dyno verifies this. Lets say you bought the highest hp chip there was......

is it really the best tune?
is it safe?
has your car been put at risk?
can this tune damage motor parts
Is my timing ok for lesser oct?
Is this chip consistent?
Why would one tune be much slower then the others on the street but Feel faster?

All the above is NOT shown on a dyno but these are more important (to sum, me included)


This post is not billed up as POWER Numbers for chips. If you are looking for that then. You can read and see the large difference from claimed #'s
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...highlightdynoo

Trying to make sense of your post, but let me retort thusly:
1) Any company that does not produce an independent (operative word: INDEPENDENT) dyno sheet is not credible in their assertions on power;
2) Any dyno sheet produced SHOULD mention what the a/f ratios are...that's a given and that any company who tunes solely for hp without factoring in octane, a/f ratios, max rpm and engine reliability is doing a disservice to them and to customers. Any idiot knows that a dyno doesn't tell the complete story. Thanks for the news flash. As noted above and below, other information should be provided if companies expect to sell their wares.
3) I'm fully aware of tricks on dynos, air temps, variability, etc.
4) It has been my experience that those companies that do NOT provide dyno sheets are selling their wares through smoke and mirrors by touting other dubious benefits.

"It's all been sorted out and verified." Really? Do you have a link?

If a company were providing a chip for sale and stated something along the lines of:
"We dyno tested this chip on three cars, using a controlled environment and all cars were identical. Air temps were identical. We found an XX bump in power across the board and although we could've made more power, we chose this tune as it kept A/F ratios at XX.XX, provided a cap on rpm to X,000 rpm for reliability and was tuned for 91 octane pump gas. More aggressive tunes are available for higher octane. "

I'd feel a WHOLE lot more secure with one's product.

Honestly, after owning 43 cars, all of them modded, I've never seen more smoke and mirrors than in the aftermarket for the RS4.

Believe it or not, I'm trying to HELP you. If you can be the first of the manufacturers to outline your wares in a manner similar to the way I've outlined them above, I'm confident you'd have an edge in the market place.

As point of reference, I have 7 years at NGK diagnosing engine tunes for IndyCar, top fuel, top alcohol, ProStock, Top fuel hydros, jet skis and turbo cars, coupled with 5 years as Exec Director/Tech Director for a pro drag racing series and 5 more working for MagnaFlow, not to mention building and tuning several 600hp+ street cars.

My point? Not everyone in the Audi market (especially) understands all of the technical aspects of chip tuning. It is up to savvy tuners to explain what you accomplish through what means...I sincerely hope my post comes across as an effort to gently nudge tuner companies in that direction.

[craiglieberman]

Well it seems having your cars in movies dosn't make you any smarter about cars or tuning

Read below for my qualifications, dipshit...then post your resume. Effin tools on this board, some of you...I swear to God.

[Justincredible]

Trying to make sense of your post, but let me retort thusly:
1) Any company that does not produce an independent (operative word: INDEPENDENT) dyno sheet is not credible in their assertions on power;
2) Any dyno sheet produced SHOULD mention what the a/f ratios are...that's a given and that any company who tunes solely for hp without factoring in octane, a/f ratios, max rpm and engine reliability is doing a disservice to them and to customers. Any idiot knows that a dyno doesn't tell the complete story. Thanks for the news flash. As noted above and below, other information should be provided if companies expect to sell their wares.
3) I'm fully aware of tricks on dynos, air temps, variability, etc.
4) It has been my experience that those companies that do NOT provide dyno sheets are selling their wares through smoke and mirrors by touting other dubious benefits.

With all due respect this is your opinion.

1 yes in some respects and no in others. All depends on the company
2 If you ran I dyno for several years Like I did, you would know that most of the Dyno A/F readings are wrong.
B not every idiot knows the dyno doesn't tell the hole story. Once again your opinion
3 if you are then why do you look for info where it can be scewed
4 your experience...your opinion. This is what it takes for YOU to believe

"It's all been sorted out and verified." Really? Do you have a link?

you must have not read the entire post

Believe it or not, I'm trying to HELP you. If you can be the first of the manufacturers to outline your wares in a manner similar to the way I've outlined them above, I'm confident you'd have an edge in the market place.

Well your trying to push your point, that you think is helpful. I don't sell anything but the truth. This is as much truth as you can find with what I had at my disposal

.

My point? Not everyone in the Audi market (especially) understands all of the technical aspects of chip tuning.

Once again with no disrespect. I believe you fall into this category.

If the point of the thread gets lost. The let me help. This and other threads like it are to help people understand what ever technical aspect we can uncover. In this thread you saw what we were able to uncover. Information comes in all shapes and sizes. What you do with that information is up to you.

In conclusion, I'm still at a loss as to why I would provide Dyno info when I was doing testing on chips. At no point in time was the testing for the sole purpose of power comparison.

I think there is a vast disconnect with what you find necessary for your conclusion of something and what we are even discussing here. You are still stuck on power when I'm testing the effects of the chips on the car.

[craiglieberman]

With all due respect this is your opinion.

1 yes in some respects and no in others. All depends on the company
2 If you ran I dyno for several years Like I did, you would know that most of the Dyno A/F readings are wrong.
B not every idiot knows the dyno doesn't tell the hole story. Once again your opinion
3 if you are then why do you look for info where it can be scewed
4 your experience...your opinion. This is what it takes for YOU to believe


you must have not read the entire post


Well your trying to push your point, that you think is helpful. I don't sell anything but the truth. This is as much truth as you can find with what I had at my disposal

.


Once again with no disrespect. I believe you fall into this category.

If the point of the thread gets lost. The let me help. This and other threads like it are to help people understand what ever technical aspect we can uncover. In this thread you saw what we were able to uncover. Information comes in all shapes and sizes. What you do with that information is up to you.

In conclusion, I'm still at a loss as to why I would provide Dyno info when I was doing testing on chips. At no point in time was the testing for the sole purpose of power comparison.

I think there is a vast disconnect with what you find necessary for your conclusion of something and what we are even discussing here. You are still stuck on power when I'm testing the effects of the chips on the car.

Wow...trying to funnel through the broken English here, but clearly, you're missing my point, so please allow me to elaborate:

Let's say I'm looking to buy a chip. I own an RS4. I'm looking for REAL data, not blanket statements that offer descriptions like "improves driveability." What the hell does that mean? To me, nothing.

I want power...reliable, dyno proven power. Period. Or no sale.

1)So, can ANYONE POINT ME TO A LINK WHERE ANYONE POSTED ANY INDEPENDENT DYNOS, ANYWHERE, WITH A/F RATIOS from proper test gear?

2) "With what I had at my disposal?" Seems to indicate that not all the equipment necessary to provide data was used...am I missing something? Again, is there a link I missed?

3) I DID run a dyno...and did tuning for Saleen for years. We used NTK Lamba sensors to test A/F ratios.

Why would you not post a dyno when you're not testing for power? Is this a language/culture barrier? I'm trying to explain MY motives in looking for a chip. I THINK that many share my views...am I wrong in that assumption?


I do not understand why anybody would buy a chip in the first place? unless there was measurable power gains. Am I alone in this desire?

Don't we want MORE POWER! Reliable, across the board, POWER. BY 'reliable' I mean: without over taxing the engine, without leaning or over richening the fuel mixture, advancing the timing and with no adverse affects on driveability.

I AM LOOKING FOR FACTS....DYNO SHEETS, A/F RATIOS ON LIKE CARS, ON LIKE DYNOS IN LIKE CONDITIONS WITH PROPER TEST GEAR. I am NOT the one selling chips, the tuners are! If they want Audi aftermarket business, I feel that these minimums are needed in order to sell their chips. I've had this some discussion with two tuners, neither of whom could produce this data, neither of whom earned my business.

Your last sentence made the most sense...sort of: You're "testing the effects of the chip on the car." Ok. I get that. Perhaps I was looking here for answers to the questions I raised here, in this reply.

I know damn well that some chip tuners are adjusting throttle sensitivity. This trick goes back to the 80's with 5 liter Mustangs adjusting their TPS sensors...they're not fooling the savvy.

What I'm saying is that as an experienced tuner, the above referenced minimums would go a long way toward selling more product. Am I alone in this desire?

[Justincredible]

For those of you looking for a entertaining read please read all of this its good

To rap this all up, its clear you missed the entire point to this post. Then for some reason you tried to make it about you and info you wanted that I wasn't testing for. So,

I did what you told the members to do

Read below for my qualifications, dipshit...then post your resume. Effin tools on this board, some of you...I swear to God.

Well ok lets do what you asked. I guess Lets look at the truth.

One, if your going to attack the fact that I don't speak the greatest English. Maybe you could take some more time and make sure when you lie about stuff you get it right.

Here were 2 posts you made today..

"experienced mechanics" LOL Doing warranty claims analysis for NGK for six years taught me one thing: all the experience in the world does little to combat laziness. 99% of engine damage that seemed to focus around spark plugs was the result of an incorrectly torqued plug.
.

BUT WAIT just 2 hours earlier you posted this.

.

As point of reference, I have 7 years at NGK diagnosing engine tunes for IndyCar, top fuel, top alcohol, ProStock, Top fuel hydros, jet skis and turbo cars, coupled with 5 years as Exec Director/Tech Director for a pro drag racing series and 5 more working for MagnaFlow, not to mention building and tuning several 600hp+ street cars.

Was it 6 years or 7 only a few hours past since you posted so not a good chance a year past. So now that we know your a lier, lets point out the hypocrite you are

Wow...trying to funnel through the broken English here, but clearly, you're missing my point, so please allow me to elaborate:

Let's say I'm looking to buy a chip. I own an RS4. I'm looking for REAL data, not blanket statements that offer descriptions like "improves driveability." What the hell does that mean? To me, nothing.

Lets look at what you wrote about your chip selection for your RS4. Because driveability means nothing to you right?

Since you asked for it, here's my review, since it'd be hard to find the thread on another Audi site given their early-1990's format:

Hopefully, the neutrality and honest feedback I post here will be more appreciated than it was there.

Driveability: the car seems to have better throttle response. Perhaps there is more power, or perhaps simply changing the throttle position sensor sensitivity provided that. There are no other issues..the car does nothing funny, no quirkiness, no jerky idle or anything like that.

With the sport button "off", I don't notice much of a difference at anything less than 90-100% throttle.

With the sport button "on," again, it feels more responsive.
r.

What did I miss. Did you just make fun of me and say that driveability means noting to you.but you just did a post review about the driveability on your new chip? WOW classy huh?

. BUT you just said this today AFTER you already bought a chip for your car. Then mentioned that you didn't have any dyno info on your car.

I want power...reliable, dyno proven power. Period. Or no sale.

I do not understand why anybody would buy a chip in the first place? unless there was measurable power gains.

I AM LOOKING FOR FACTS....DYNO SHEETS, A/F RATIOS ON LIKE CARS, ON LIKE DYNOS IN LIKE CONDITIONS WITH PROPER TEST GEAR. I am NOT the one selling chips, the tuners are! If they want Audi aftermarket business, I feel that these minimums are needed in order to sell their chips. I've had this some discussion with two tuners, neither of whom could produce this data, neither of whom earned my business.

WHAT? you just said you would never buy a chip without all this info and you just did a write up on the chip you just bough with out having any info....

I'm not confident that my butt dyno can feel a gain of the claimed 19hp. However, their no hassle money back guarantee coupled with claims consistent with the European chip tuners for the RS4 persuaded me to take the chance.

Look maybe this game your playing will work in the movies. But if your going to come here and stand on your soap box. Its best you Learn to lie better and not bash or attack the people that REALLY know and are here to help, NOT SELF PROMOTE

So lets

1 read what I wrote
2 don't do a completely 100% vage description of a chip you bought then attack the results I found for us. When I actually did testing
3 its best to not mention you would never buy a chip with no info and dyno sheets, to only then go and buy a chip with no dyno sheets and give a review
4 and most important

Maybe you should take a sec and think. For someone that claims to be so smart. Why have several other people been able to see the value in the information I found, but you still can't grasp it?

So in the movie we would call that a RAP but here on the NET we call that
PONED

[craiglieberman]

For those of you looking for a entertaining read please read all of this its good

To rap this all up, its clear you missed the entire point to this post. Then for some reason you tried to make it about you and info you wanted that I wasn't testing for. So,

I did what you told the members to do


Well ok lets do what you asked. I guess Lets look at the truth.

One, if your going to attack the fact that I don't speak the greatest English. Maybe you could take some more time and make sure when you lie about stuff you get it right.

Here were 2 posts you made today..



BUT WAIT just 2 hours earlier you posted this.



Was it 6 years or 7 only a few hours past since you posted so not a good chance a year past. So now that we know your a lier, lets point out the hypocrite you are



Lets look at what you wrote about your chip selection for your RS4. Because driveability means nothing to you right?


What did I miss. Did you just make fun of me and say that driveability means noting to you.but you just did a post review about the driveability on your new chip? WOW classy huh?

. BUT you just said this today AFTER you already bought a chip for your car. Then mentioned that you didn't have any dyno info on your car.


WHAT? you just said you would never buy a chip without all this info and you just did a write up on the chip you just bough with out having any info....



Look maybe this game your playing will work in the movies. But if your going to come here and stand on your soap box. Its best you Learn to lie better and not bash or attack the people that REALLY know and are here to help, NOT SELF PROMOTE

So lets

1 read what I wrote
2 don't do a completely 100% vage description of a chip you bought then attack the results I found for us. When I actually did testing
3 its best to not mention you would never buy a chip with no info and dyno sheets, to only then go and buy a chip with no dyno sheets and give a review
4 and most important

Maybe you should take a sec and think. For someone that claims to be so smart. Why have several other people been able to see the value in the information I found, but you still can't grasp it?

So in the movie we would call that a RAP but here on the NET we call that
PONED

Wow...some of the most inflammatory shit ever written by an Audi tuner.

Yes, six years diagnosing plugs for NGK out of the SEVEN years I spent working with racing teams.

Secondly, I NEVER bought a chip...I was GIVEN a tune to test by Unitronic. I gave them my report based on my experience. I was then GIVEN a tune by Powerchip to test. NEVER PAID FOR EITHER, DUDE...where in EITHER of my posts did I ever say that I purchased a chip? I was asked to give my unbiased opinions to these companies and I did.

I was very clear about the term 'DRIVEABILITY' insofaras I spoke specifically about throttle response. Nothing else. I never posted that I cared about "driveability" and merely noted that there was a difference in throttle response. There's a big difference and your inability to grasp the nuances of the English language is confusing you, me thinks.

Yet despite your efforts to discredit my analysis, my own earlier report nailed it on the head: the Unitronic chip altered throttle response, EXACTLY AS I SUSPECTED. Guess what? I needed nothing but the seat of my pants and my experience to tell me this.

I see ZERO value in your post because your claims do nothing to alter what I already know:
No one has produced valuable, credible REAL DATA with REAL NUMBERS, CHARTS AND GRAPHS to prove that ANY TUNE for an RS4 provides power, safe yet effective A/F ratios and timing curves, LEAST OF ALL, YOU!

I've asked for links to your data FOUR TIMES, EACH TIME, you respond with mindless drivel.

My favorite quote of yours "My info has been backed by customers and GIAC themselves explaining info I found". Wow. Scientific proof if there was any. What info? Where? WHERE ARE THE LINKS? THE A/F charts? The dyno pulls? Who are these customers? What does their tuning resume look like?

I truly appreciate your scientific testing with parameters such as the "honesty test."

Your analysis is flawed, your testing is hardly scientific and your "facts" are little more than your opinions and you're calling ME out?

Since we're quoting old posts, here's a doozy from your response in a thread about Unitronic software...your reply was "believe the hype or look for the Hp."

But wait...horsepower isn't a concern, according to you...

As for conflicts, I'll bet you my CAR that if Unitronic were a sponsor of this board, you'd have a different series of posts on their tuning vs. JHM (not to in any way discredit JHM, I merely point to them as they ARE a board sponsor and you DID have nice things to say about them, but that leads me to another point).

Dude...seriously...I can appreciate that you work for JHM and I am a fan of their products, but considering you're a board sponsor AND a board moderator, how is that there's no conflict of interest? You say you're not selling anything but the truth...come on. You sell tuning products for Audis. I would expect a company like JHM to have readily accessible data and would be EAGER to share this data.

Either way, I'm done arguing with another armchair tuner.

[Justincredible]

This can only be summed up by your in ability to continue to read and comprehend.

It continues to be clear you did not read the entire post as,

1 I don't work for anyone
2 I provided what I was able to find
3 This post has 0 to do with the RS4 as I don't own one
4 At no point did you offer any info at any time.
5 you continue to carry on about dyno info when this post has nothing to do with dyno info.
6 I never compared the uni chip to my JHM chip.

If your going to lie you shouldn't ask people to point it out for you.
If your going to complain READ first.
If your going to offer your opinion make sure its about the subject the post was talking about


As for the 6 year thing that like magic turned into 7. Sure *wink* ya sure *wink* *wink*

Seriously I could go on for pages calling you out on your lies. But here is one more for the road.

Secondly, I NEVER bought a chip...I was GIVEN a tune to test by Unitronic. I gave them my report based on my experience. I was then GIVEN a tune by Powerchip to test. NEVER PAID FOR EITHER, DUDE...where in EITHER of my posts did I ever say that I purchased a chip? .

Seriously you have to just feel foolish at this point in time.

. However, their no hassle money back guarantee coupled with claims consistent with the European chip tuners for the RS4 persuaded me to take the chance. r.

Here are YOUR WORDS YOU ASKED FOR

DISCLAIMER: The staff at another Audi website has a problem with me giving a review (apparently) from a non paying advertiser and alleged that I got the software free.

REALITY: Their information is wrong.

Oh but don't take my word for it. PLEASE read here.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...30#post2326030

Im going to make one more attempt to stop you from continuing to look foolish.

Nothing in this post is about a RS4.

READ the post. This was info I gathered for me and then decided to share with others.

[Philosophyy]

Game, Set, Match

[SkiWalk3r]

So, basically I should get an APR chip is what you're saying? Good, that's the route I was going once the DPs get installed next week.

Thanks again Justincredible.

[beemercer]

As for conflicts, I'll bet you my CAR that if Unitronic were a sponsor of this board, you'd have a different series of posts on their tuning vs. JHM (not to in any way discredit JHM, I merely point to them as they ARE a board sponsor and you DID have nice things to say about them, but that leads me to another point).

I'd like to contend this point. JHM's reputation on this board is due to their superior product line, their willingness to help out members (part numbers, specialty tools), and their embracing of a previously abandoned market (B6/B7 S4 N/A performance was dead).

Also none of us work for JHM, which is comprised mostly of three members (Dan, Jay, Matt); our strong support for them is a response to the tremendous quality of products and service provided. Just because Justin is now a moderator doesn't mean he has always been (in fact it has only been a month or so), so don't take his position as a moderator on this board as some sort of conflict of interest.

[jsantiago17]

To rap this all up, its clear you missed the entire point to this post. Then for some reason you tried to make it about you and info you wanted that I wasn't testing for

for Just Incredible. I clearly understood the point of his post, what he was trying to show and how he presented it! Great info!!

[dextrek]

wow...you guys should become a lawyer or something.

[jfunkey]

OHHHH dude PWNED

the best part is I checked your

Read below for my qualifications, dipshit...then post your resume. Effin tools on this board, some of you...I swear to God.

and you full of S$%T. AAAA HAHAHAHA.

My resume is I can read.

[GameBreaker]

There is a lot of BS and magical dyno numbers floating around this board, and until Justincredible and JHM started doing more not much has been done in the past few years except for exhausts and somewhat iffy chips.

If you look around there is lots of information by Justincredible, it's independent and done by himself to just get information out there, he isn't specifically marketing any company. A couple companies have made claims for HP numbers, but looking at the numbers all the fastest cars have tuning parts from JHM and they don't claim any specific numbers. If you want specific numbers ask the companies, not the guy that is actually helping the forums.

Once again, thanks for everything Justincredible. I will continue to follow your write-ups, engine tear-downs, and whatever else you have coming. Don't forget to post some new vids with your headers as well.

[jfunkey]

There is a lot of BS and magical dyno numbers floating around this board, and until Justincredible and JHM started doing more not much has been done in the past few years except for exhausts and somewhat iffy chips.

If you look around there is lots of information by Justincredible, it's independent and done by himself to just get information out there, he isn't specifically marketing any company. A couple companies have made claims for HP numbers, but looking at the numbers all the fastest cars have tuning parts from JHM and they don't claim any specific numbers. If you want specific numbers ask the companies, not the guy that is actually helping the forums.

Once again, thanks for everything Justincredible. I will continue to follow your write-ups, engine tear-downs, and whatever else you have coming. Don't forget to post some new vids with your headers as well.

Bro I think this was just the game braker that puts this weired ramblings of one lost RS4 dude to bed.
+1 rep for the game breaker

[Redundant]

For one thing the word is pwned. It's not pone or pnoed. Seems as the B6/7 S4/RS4 boards are going to the way of the post whoring/spam, "I must post on every thread" crowd. Which will be the down fall of any community like this.

The information that Justincredible is providing is valuable, but allow people to have their own opinions and don't jump down their throats for having them. Craig knows what he is talking about, he may not be fully on topic with the conversation going on in this thread, but he does know his stuff. He has a lot to offer to the Audi community if you guys are actually willing to accept him. His knowledge isn't the only thing that he can offer the community, he also has a lot of automotive industry contacts.

[jfunkey]

Craig knows what he is talking about, he may not be fully on topic with the conversation going on in this thread, but he does know his stuff.

If you cant read and be on topic. that is the first step in knowing your stuff. Let alone the fact that the guy is full of S$#T

Then dude comes in and attacked a very helpfull post with random stuff that had NOTING to do with the post. attacking the write up...ha hahaha bro only to do a complete weak ass wright up him self with NO 0 zero info actuall tested info. talk about blow hard. lastly the dude can't even get his lies stright.

There people that talk about how great they are and people who show how great they are.....Lets just say I havn't seen anything but lies and endless confused off topic rambles about himself. But from justin the guy that is just some random dude working off his dime to try and help him and us. Shows us what he can with what he has

I wouldn't be so hard on dude if any of what he was talking about had anything to do with justins post. Its just uncool to attack the people that have nothing to gain when there attempting to help us.

Its old to hear from the people that are SO much better but have never offered anything. The people that don't help shouldn't coment on the people that do help.

[Justincredible]

For one more time thanks guys.

Every time you do something like this your going to have resistance. But take a sec and reread the original post. None of this was about power, as a matter of fact my closing statement made a point to say that. This post is and was about the system and how it is effected by other chips. What are those chips doing to your car.

You will notice All the resistance in this post came from people looking for Dyno info and getting mad when it wasn't posted. They never read the post in the first place. so its best to ignore them as they never really read the post in the first place.

As someone that does this on my free time and almost a year later lets put out an update.

***** chip update *****

Well the chip I had ended up with was the JHM chip. One year later several people can attest to the benefits to not just using the dyno for tuning. IMHO this is what you get from a company that tunes more for the street then the dyno.

Here are the results I got from stock 14.3 @ 97 and my JHM chip...enjoy the video as it shows the results (sorry you might have to sit threw a 14sec commercial first..This video was made for me)
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/B...-M3_203342.htm

I put the JHM tune threw the same paces as the other tuned.

The honesty test.
Bone stock....This is one of the things that threw me off. As I still have better throttle response then other people see with there modified pedal tunes. The throttle and the power are tied in together. More throttle more power.

Timing.
The timing seemed to come in quicker then on other tunes. This means that there would be more timing sooner in the rev range but the corrections never got above 8.

A/F
The air fuel reacted much like the others but it didn't waver as much. It seemed to have a much stronger hold on one value

Rev limit

Being that I'm an automatic I don't think you can bump up the rev limit all that much. I got a bump to about 7000.

But the question. Do I have a dyno for my car with the JHM tune.....Nope the performance is what I'm looking for and I got it. I don't need a sheet to tell me that. The 13.3@107 sheet was good enough for me.

Conclusion. How does this tune stack up..well you can go look at the 1/4 mile data sheet and figure that one out. It seems to me, while some companies worry about how there car will perform on a dyno, JHM worries about how your tune will perform on the street, where it counts.

But what is still the best chip for your car.....well a set of Dp's is. use piggies as they remove the precat and still allow you more performance while you can still pass emissions

And to respond to the fella that just doesn't get it. I don't work for JHM, but they do work for us. Just ask around

[dextrek]

Rev limit

Being that I'm an automatic I don't think you can bump up the rev limit all that much. I got a bump to about 7000.

From the quote above, I have two questions.

1. How much difference do you think extra 200 RPM will make? as you stated in the OP that the car makes power until 7200 RPM.

2. Why is the automatic limited to 7000 RPM? Since JHM chip is not another cookie cutter software, can't they customize the tune to rev up to 7200 upon request? (unless there is a limiting factor due to being an automatic.)

I guess this brings up my third question.
3. What is the rev limit on manual cars with JHM tune?

[Justincredible]

From the quote above, I have two questions.

1. How much difference do you think extra 200 RPM will make? as you stated in the OP that the car makes power until 7200 RPM.

2. Why is the automatic limited to 7000 RPM? Since JHM chip is not another cookie cutter software, can't they customize the tune to rev up to 7200 upon request? (unless there is a limiting factor due to being an automatic.)

I guess this brings up my third question.
3. What is the rev limit on manual cars with JHM tune?

1 Not anything to write home about (notice the write caught on from earlier thanks) The car still makes power up to 7200 but the power starts dropping off fast soon after

2 The stock automatic limit is just below 6800. At this time I Think They can move the rev limit up to 7200 but there is a point where the trans will go into limp mode if you go too high with the RPM.

3 From the cars live logged its 7300 or 7400. I logged a local fellas car with the JHM tune for his car and he mentioned that they (JHM) know there is no real power past 7200 and max acceleration power is gone at 6800. But that JHM bumps it up just so if your road racing and you need that little more you can have it in the straights.

The fella I was helping asked JHM to bump his rev limit to 7500 and mentioned that JHM's response was. "it is already set for you when you need more RPM its called 5th and 6th gear. Anything above 7300 is just starting to put the motor in an unsafe position, with little to go gain to justify the off set." LOL I thought that was funny

[Captain Insano]

Exactly. All that drama and this entire thread isn't even about the car craiglieberman was complaining about (he has an RS4 we have S4s....).

I understand the desire for perfect tests, but in reality there is no perfect tests when it comes to cars. Even if you have all the shlt he kept going on and on about. Even if you do a test like he wants - a tire test with the same car, same day, same driver, same track, different tires... What happens as the temperature changes throughout the day? Or the moisture in the air increases? Or the driver is tired by the time he is testing the 4th set of tires? Or what about those perfect dyno tests for various chips with same car, same driver, same dyno, with those nice, pretty AF ratio charts... Don't you care about timing too? I would. And what if the dyno had settings changed between? Or what if the company running dyno was honest, but they did 4 tests and by the time they ran the 4th chip it was 10 degrees F hotter out and 20% more moisture was in the air? What if it was more heat soaked for the 2nd, 3rd, & 4th chip tests? Was the car ramped up on the dyno the same way, starting to go WOT at the same time/RPM on every run for every chip? Multiple runs per chip? I could go on for a freakin hour. You can find flaws in any test man. You do the best with what you have and draw conclusions. So don't come on here and talk about proper and perfect testing.

If you cant read and be on topic. that is the first step in knowing your stuff. Let alone the fact that the guy is full of S$#T

Then dude comes in and attacked a very helpfull post with random stuff that had NOTING to do with the post. attacking the write up...ha hahaha bro only to do a complete weak ass wright up him self with NO 0 zero info actuall tested info. talk about blow hard. lastly the dude can't even get his lies stright.

There people that talk about how great they are and people who show how great they are.....Lets just say I havn't seen anything but lies and endless confused off topic rambles about himself. But from justin the guy that is just some random dude working off his dime to try and help him and us. Shows us what he can with what he has

I wouldn't be so hard on dude if any of what he was talking about had anything to do with justins post. Its just uncool to attack the people that have nothing to gain when there attempting to help us.

Its old to hear from the people that are SO much better but have never offered anything. The people that don't help shouldn't coment on the people that do help.

If a company were providing a chip for sale and stated something along the lines of:
"We dyno tested this chip on three cars, using a controlled environment and all cars were identical. Air temps were identical. We found an XX bump in power across the board and although we could've made more power, we chose this tune as it kept A/F ratios at XX.XX, provided a cap on rpm to X,000 rpm for reliability and was tuned for 91 octane pump gas. More aggressive tunes are available for higher octane. "

I'd feel a WHOLE lot more secure with one's product.

Honestly, after owning 43 cars, all of them modded, I've never seen more smoke and mirrors than in the aftermarket for the RS4.

[Justincredible]

Exactly. All that drama and this entire thread isn't even about the car craiglieberman was complaining about (he has an RS4 we have S4s....).

I understand the desire for perfect tests, but in reality there is no perfect tests when it comes to cars. Even if you have all the shlt he kept going on and on about. Even if you do a test like he wants - a tire test with the same car, same day, same driver, same track, different tires... What happens as the temperature changes throughout the day? Or the moisture in the air increases? Or the driver is tired by the time he is testing the 4th set of tires? Or what about those perfect dyno tests for various chips with same car, same driver, same dyno, with those nice, pretty AF ratio charts... Don't you care about timing too? I would. And what if the dyno had settings changed between? Or what if the company running dyno was honest, but they did 4 tests and by the time they ran the 4th chip it was 10 degrees F hotter out and 20% more moisture was in the air? What if it was more heat soaked for the 2nd, 3rd, & 4th chip tests? Was the car ramped up on the dyno the same way, starting to go WOT at the same time/RPM on every run for every chip? Multiple runs per chip? I could go on for a freakin hour. You can find flaws in any test man. You do the best with what you have and draw conclusions. So don't come on here and talk about proper and perfect testing.

Thanks.

Its always easier to say how you would have done it, when you didn't have to do anything but read the information.

Considering the best tools at my despoil and the fact that this was all for me to help myself come to a conclusion, I'm lost as to how someone would even have an negative opinion. In the end all I'm doing is sharing what I found. If you don't think my conclusion is proper that's fine, but my conclusion doesn't change the found facts that I was able to show.

In the scheme of it all the information I found let me to the chip and other performance parts I have on my car now. That being said for a automatic car I still have one of the best MPH times out there for a N/A car.

So in my opinion, I must have done something right

[audis4b6]

wow Justincredible!!!! excellent work here.
thank you for the time and $$$$$ out of your own pocket to help the community......

[Justincredible]

Thanks as a last piece to this entire chip thing. Ive been marching on and on about the Dp's and there ability to remove the heat from the front 02's. Obviously the pre cat Dp's are a bit of a disappointment for totally accomplishing this.

For almost free you can make your own Dp's and take out the Pre cat and get chip like results. Its the best money you will ever not have to spend, to get performance.

[road race s4]

I'm looking for REAL data, not blanket statements that offer descriptions like "improves driveability." What the hell does that mean? To me, nothing.

I want power...reliable, dyno proven power. Period. Or no sale.

That's your opinion. I would rather buy a chip that was tested on the street rather than a dyno. A dyno number would be nice but won't mean much.

[Austin@GIAC]

They did a independent test. There were 2 shoot outs back in the day

test one APR came out top at the time GIAC finnished last.
Then one of the contestents (GIAC) complained and demamded a retest. They held a retest at AWE a standup but still completly GIAC Bias company. Give you 3 guesses what the results were this time... GIAC was top and APR was last.

Then there are links after links of shady companys dynoing other peoples software. The not exactly stand up company ASP dynoed an APR chip and said it made less then stock sure only to sell there tune. weeks later the same thing happened at ASP with a GIAC chip wonder why. You can't trust ANY of these guys. since then the guy that got shammed into the ASP chip went on line and said how he was shammed and the ASP chip was worse then stock.

APR GIAC etc etc. All make a great product. for some the dyno has all the answers for others its street proof or bust.

Being someone that has used Edit software on the LT and LS cars this speaks loud with usfull info. we always want more and we all have our own thought of what is and is not needed. I think we should just take it for what it had offered us

Im all for dyno info but what is the point of that in this situation. Its like taking a picture of a REALL nice looking house from the out side. But then finding out that the structure is not solid or safe (kinda like having a dangerious chip. good on the dyno bad over all)

From what I read this post had NOTHING to do with hprse power numbers so that would be an invalid point.

I would say the guy (justin) would know a good thing when he sees it as he still has the fastest MPH for an automatic car.

This is completely incorrect. Fuel (octane) usage was brought into question. The second test was the same as the first, only the second time around participants were required to show up at the same gas station on an empty tank and fuel up using the same exact fuel. Many of the initial users declined to do this (you do the math why). The first test was performed on the same car with same hardware/same condition. The second round was a shootout between Audiworld users.

The dyno was not operated by AWE-Tuning but rather by Audiworld and this was well documented.

GIAC software has been dynoed independently many times with very similar power gains measured all over the country. If you see something drastically different, it is safe to say shady business practices are at work.