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  1. #41
    Veteran Member Four Rings AudiTechS4's Avatar
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    stg 2 k03 car on e54 is a fun car as well :)
    2001 Audi S4 Manual - Nogaro Blue/black - Full AWE stg 3 kit w/ manifolds,h&r coilovers,jhm trans rebuild,UUC VM3 exhaust , 2.5" dp's - Needs Love - Got some love now 442awhp and 512 awtq
    2004 Audi S4 Avant manual - Silver/black - 2.7 swapped ,k24's and srm side mounts

  2. #42
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    You got to pay to play.so they say. It is a costly slope and you really don't want to spend all this money then cheap out on cheap parts or questionable machining and have a pos.
    It went down that hole or better yet im still in that hole. I have a stalled engine build project that i contemplate just selling off everthing and buy a new performance type car,but i had a dream of 600whp b5s4 and want to see it through, but unfortunately life got in the way and im still a good 3000.+ bucks away from finishing, so hopefully i do finish or i sell everything and buy a shelby 350.! Lol

  3. #43
    Veteran Member Three Rings ElementR's Avatar
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    Nov 23 2013
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    My Garage
    '07 Volvo S60R Cavalli Turbo, '93 Mustang Cobra Twin Turbo 347cid, '01 B5 S4 Tial 605's
    Location
    Grosse Pointe, MI

    Ha, a new or newish GT350 is one of very few cars I would sell my S4 for. They're all around me here and yet so hard to justify when you look at the price... now bang for buck is still impressive, just not cheap to get into one.
    2001 Silver/Black S4, Built engine (RPM rods, ARP hardware, Mahle pistons, Supertech valvetrain, etc), Tial 605's @25psi on 93 oct, JHM FMIC, JHM full trans rebuilt/upgrade, 3" SS dp + CBE, Vast intake + bipipes + tune, ST Coilovers, Hotchkis Swaybars, RS4 wheels and interior goodies.

  4. #44
    Veteran Member Three Rings VR6Bomber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmer009 View Post
    So I'm looking into building a block also. Can I get away with out messing the crank. I'm not gonna try to turn high rpms. Or should I just do it. So I can turn 8500rpms. I know you have ball hone the cyilender walls anyway.
    IIRC FYI balancing my last crank only cost like 350 (?), I wouldn't skimp.
    Knock sensors will go haywire if you have too much noise, you'll eventually wind up in f**ksville.

    Ask me how I know.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think cranks are balanced from the factory, however its all that engineering stuff that keeps the weight within tolerance?

    Ounce of prevention, it will keep the crank and all that expensive stuff attached to it happier for longer.

  5. #45
    Veteran Member Four Rings 2380S4's Avatar
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    07 DTM S4, 15 328XI & 90 Turbo Grand Prix
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    Quote Originally Posted by unvmy996 View Post
    Looking to see what a basic engine build costs to do these days to handle the extra torque from tial 605 reliably .
    So for rods , full refresh with gaskets bearings etc , machine work /balancing etc . Stock pistons , a light head port and cams.

    Allready have the rods.
    Quote Originally Posted by VR6Bomber View Post
    3-4k...? for the bottom-end kit maybe. lol

    10-15k for a legit built motor.
    Trust me I am well aware of what it costs..

    As the OP asked for rods, stock pistions(re-uesd I assume) and basic bottom end parts you can do $3-4K, if you squeeze the crap out of it. As I said above a better estimate is the $5k-$8K range. I don't remember what my "long block" cost but pretty sure between that and my heads it was around $12k for parts, labor, machine and odds and ends..
    Ordered: 2018 RS3 Audi Exclusive Navarra Blue
    Current: 2007 S4 DTM
    Past: 2001 S4 10 years in the stable, miss it everyday.
    Past: 2013 A5
    Garage: 2015 328 I X-Drive
    1990 Turbo Grand Prix

  6. #46
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    So I am getting my block Soon. I'll detail everything but I am going to try to do everything right. And I can start a new thread or just keep hijacking this one. Just let me know??? (This will take a lot of time)

    So I will pick it up this week from a salvage yard. 320$ pulled and set in the back of my pick up. I have already contacted a machine shop and they quoted me 225$ to balance the crank.

    So step 2 is replacing the main bolts??? And bearings. I will reuse the caps

    Also what else should I replace besides the oil pump???

  7. #47
    Veteran Member Three Rings ElementR's Avatar
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    '07 Volvo S60R Cavalli Turbo, '93 Mustang Cobra Twin Turbo 347cid, '01 B5 S4 Tial 605's
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    At minimum - new main bolts/studs and main/rod bearings. You'll also need new piston rings and locs for the wrist pins. Pistons will need to be cleaned up, inspected and fitment checked in block...If that is in great shape, replace the rings, fit pistons to new H-beam rods, replace main/rod bearings, install balanced crank and assembly rod/piston assemblies. Install new main hardware and start rest of the assembly which entails lots of gaskets and misc hardware.

    I started along a similar path and then quickly discovered things like one cylinder was scared in my donor engine so I had to hone and go with larger pistons (got Mahle 81.5mm Powerpack pistons). I also replaced the oil pump. Gaskets and misc hardware adds up fast so be ready for that. The rest is all based upon what you want to do vs what you need to do...like timing belt/tensioner, water pump, valvetrain, head work, etc. Personally I would at least do new timing belt/tensioner and water pump.
    2001 Silver/Black S4, Built engine (RPM rods, ARP hardware, Mahle pistons, Supertech valvetrain, etc), Tial 605's @25psi on 93 oct, JHM FMIC, JHM full trans rebuilt/upgrade, 3" SS dp + CBE, Vast intake + bipipes + tune, ST Coilovers, Hotchkis Swaybars, RS4 wheels and interior goodies.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    I can see the hidden costs in the gaskets and odds and ends. And as this is a junk yard motor I am going to replace everything. Like I say this build will take time.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    So here is a question I hope we all agree on. Main bolts vs studs and nuts. Will everyone agree that studs and nuts are stinger aka better???? Is there anyway to predetermin if I need equal length studs??? Or if my block came with the 10mm longer holes in the out side???

  10. #50
    Senior Member Four Rings blitz2190's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmer009 View Post
    So here is a question I hope we all agree on. Main bolts vs studs and nuts. Will everyone agree that studs and nuts are stinger aka better???? Is there anyway to predetermin if I need equal length studs??? Or if my block came with the 10mm longer holes in the out side???
    you need to pull the bolts to determine the lengths, and when I built mine the stock oem mains bolts where more expensive through audi then the arp studs that are considerably stronger. So I see no reason not to run studs. Always balance the assembly if its out and your doing rods, its stupid not to (saying it can work is like saying a grenade could not detonate but why take the chance), all of my machine work was around $600ish (balance, hone, had the mains checked for trueness, had the rods checked which were RPM I-Beams and they were perfect) it was another 130 for a full clean after but I did this myself as I have a cleaning bench to do so.
    Never argue with an idiot, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
    2.7T Swap Wiring Guide (Psst this is a link)
    New Build In progress built 2.7 STK 2004 B6 A4- Thread and pic to come

  11. #51
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    Thanks for the info. So is there a way I can check the mains for trueness in my garage??? No I don't have line boar lol

    I can do the hone myself. As well as the rods. I would rather buy the tools than pay some one. That is sort of point of this build is to learn how to do it.

  12. #52
    Senior Member Four Rings blitz2190's Avatar
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    the closest way without a line bore(i borrowed one, and the machine shop checked mine for cheap after as well) would be plastigauge at three point on each bearing surface and make sure all are close to each other then check each individual mains with a bore gauge to make sure they are perfectly round, this would tell you with about 95% accuracy, when checking the plastigauge, your not only looking for the correct thickness but the same on each point on each seperate bearing, so all the right sides are close, middles, left etc. but at the end of the day a machine shop will be easier and cheaper if you do not have access to any tools.
    Never argue with an idiot, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
    2.7T Swap Wiring Guide (Psst this is a link)
    New Build In progress built 2.7 STK 2004 B6 A4- Thread and pic to come

  13. #53
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    Yea pasigauge would work fine for this. But once again I would not be able to just run out and buy a line boaring tool. A ball hone yes lol. But i bet it's not a big cost if I'm already having the crank balanced at the same time.

    Thank you for help understanding this.

  14. #54
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by julex View Post
    My advise is to not open the block and simply slap the turbos on it and get fueling, tune, clutch + whatever else is needed. I also went down the rabbit hole with my built years ago (tial 770) and I don't even want to think how much money went into this but let's say that I could have gotten almost new real nice car for the amount.

    From perspective of time, my previous set up with K04 was more fun on streets anyway.
    This is the man to listen to. I've been on this forum for years and his advise is among the best out there. It's an old platform now- put some K04's and a good tune on it and enjoy.

  15. #55
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    In my case I will apologize for not taking the advice to just leave it stock. I want to learn. And the knowledge base here is enough to steer me or anyone else to be able to do this.

    I know the risk. This is a spare engine. But I understand the concern

  16. #56
    Established Member Two Rings
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    You can keep posting in this thread , itís good to have all the info in one thread .

  17. #57
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Cars are generally a depreciating asset. The B5 platform is relatively reasonable price/performance proposition only if you can do the work yourself. The sensible build is to find some fresh genuine K04 turbos and supporting mods and go have fun. Engines are inexpensive and very available. If you break it, just get a replacement. Even a well sorted K03 hairdryer powered B5 is fun to drive. Everybody needs a hobby so, If you have the time and money to build an engine enjoy! I am in to a build now because I lack common sense and B5ís can be habit forming.


    Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

  18. #58
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    https://mobiloil.com/en/article/car-...the-bottom-end

    Just some reading material. Is this a good guide to follow???

  19. #59
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    I'd read the service manual for 2.7t first and foremost. Lots of info in there including all the clearances etc. Reading some generic stuff is good I guess too. Doing the stuff yourself is not that hard and you will need some extra tools, beyond "Basic" set of mechanic tools:

    - Engine stand
    - Ring grinder
    - feeler gauges (for ring gaps)
    - ring compressor
    - bore gauge
    - real good micrometer for pistons
    - plastic gauge
    - good straight edge
    - couple of E sockets for main bolts and rods (external torx)
    - REAL GOOD set of torque wrenches in three sizes, small, medium and large
    - timing bar/pin although IMHO only the pin is needed since timing via camshaft notches is more accurate than bar anyway



    FWIW 2.7t blocks usually have factory spec dimensions after 100k+ miles if they were maintaned properly so most of times it is just a precaution to check the dimensions IF everything passes visual inspection.

  20. #60
    Senior Member Two Rings AudiTuner1187's Avatar
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    The more I read everyone's experiences, the easier it is to just buy a eurospec engine when that time comes. Seemes like a very reasonable price.
    http://www.eurospecsport.com/products/engines/v6-5v.htm

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Audizine mobile app

  21. #61
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    Yes the right tools make any job easier. But a simple call to the local snap on guy. He's a buddy. And I can meet him for a tool if I'm stuck.

    5400 bucks is worth more than my car lol. But in all reality it's a great way to go. And I wish that root was even an option. My way is slow and as I get money.

    So after I get the bottom end built. When are the heads going to be a problem??? I heard they are good in stock form. Maybe just have them decked and new vavle seals??? Where is the line of as long as your in there start or stop??? Hydro lifters and vavle seals???

  22. #62
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    The performances of the Otto cycle engine comes from the head.....build 2.8 heads incl valvetrain/ valves, decked, seals, guides etc is 2500-3000 bucks....and that does not include a p&p ....

    My advise , use a healthy stock engine , slap on some genuine KO 4ís on E or meth and call
    It a day, maybe throw in some 2.8 cams . That is what you can drive almost immediately..... the rest is the pipe dream that unfolds in the classifieds almost every day.

  23. #63
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    So I built my own single turbo kit. I am currently using a holset hx35. 630cc injectiors and a 85mm maf. I have water meth injection. Im getting as close to the limits of a stick block as ko4's would bring you. If I did twins it would be k24's.

    Just so everyone knows other people will advise you to just slap on ko4's. This is good advise. Tryed and true100%. This thread is not about IF it's about how. I personally think we should all stick the topic of this thread.

  24. #64
    Senior Member Two Rings AudiTuner1187's Avatar
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    Would it be a bad idea to rebuild bottom end and get some low mileage 2.8 heads? Won't be able to turn high rpm but, should handle plenty of power right?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Audizine mobile app

  25. #65
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    That's a good question. I have searched a lot and can't find much saying the 2.7 heads are restricting them. You would think with a turbo car, psi turns into cfm or #/min and the tune turns into volumetric efficiency. But I do agree 100% the all the power are in the heads. The "Otto cycle" engine is a air pump. The more in and the more out the better.

    But a 2.8 uses the same size valves. (I think because you have to switch the exsaust valves)

    What makes the 2.8 heads worth it???
    -better intake cam ( I'm sure of this one)
    -bigger combustion chamber???
    -bigger ports from the intake manifold(I know this one to.

    Is there anything I am missing that makes the 2.8 heads better than the 2.7 heads ???

  26. #66
    Senior Member Four Rings christianb5s4's Avatar
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    In my opinion, 2.7 heads with a set of 2.8 or better yet RS4 cams are a great package. Cams in a 2.7 head give you significant gains especially when you have the 2.7 heads ported/polished (route I took, ported/polished 2.7 heads w/ RS4 cams). Also my personal opinion but I feel having a set of heads specifically designed for turbocharged applications is superior to heads that are designed for N/A.
    Imola 2001 Stage 3 S4: 312K - 2.4sec FATs - Completely Refreshed/Built Motor - SRM K24s w/ Custom Turbosmart wastegates - Clutchmasters Stage 4 - Etspec - Cinesnow WG/Oil Lines - SRM V3 Intercoolers - AA built trans - 4:1 Diff - JHM Trio - 034 - H&R Coilovers - FCP - Bosch Motorsports - OZ Racing - SRM/SSAC exhaust - Tons of New OEM parts

  27. #67
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    How much gain do you think you got with your set up christian???

    Do you think a valve job would if better than a port and polish????? (Dollar for dollar)

    I still wonder if the stock heads in stock form are gonna stop me from hitting 800hp. My goal is less than that but I am thinking new lifters and springs and the head should be good to go????

  28. #68
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    2.8 heads have bigger ports , so do RS4 heads except on the RS4 the exhaust ports are smaller in comparison to the 2.8 to retain TQ.

    The difference between 2.7 and 2.8 is between 30-40 whp, apples to apples. the 2.7 have a little more tq on the bottom but choke out on top where the 2.8 heads outflow them significantly. 2.7 heads even build will never do 800 hp, no way no how, side to side with 2.8 heads the ports are puny.

    A valve job /guides/seals simply put the head in like new condition like it was intended from the factory when it was delivered. No performance gain. A CNC port and polish is expensive and will further improve flow by a considerable margin. A hand p&p does not do a lot unless done by a expert who does it for a living.

  29. #69
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    Thanks for the info. So with the 2.8 heads you will also need a new intake manifold. The later(2001.5) one is big port right??? I know my 2000 is small port. But will a 2.8 intake work???

  30. #70
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    You can port match your intake manifold with die grinder assuming you have a compressor with enough cfm or you can use phenolic transition spacers. Ports/ runners are all the same from 2000 to 2002 except later models have a improved plenum.2.8 intake manifold is a no go. If you have the dough you can get a RS4 intake manifold or even better, TheTuner intake manifold.

  31. #71
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    if you're going 2.8 heads then you have three options in the order of PITA/money factor:
    1. Buy phenolic transition gasket - $100 or less.
    2. Port your APB/BEL intake - Tools etc will cost a bit (you need air grinder with assortment of carbide bits, compressor, etc).
    3. Install RS4 manifold

  32. #72
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    Will the stock manifold go big enough to match the big port??? I think the spacers will be worth the money.

    But I'm having a hard time finding the spacers. Both ECS and vast make them. But I only see them for the 1.8t. I'm also at work and trying to be a good employee well sort of

  33. #73
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    RPM H beam rods with ARP bolts, new gasket kit, Glyco rod brearings, and 2.8 cams. You wouldnít even have to pull your crank, and you could drop pistons back in with the same rings and you wouldnít have to hone it. You could do this for under a grand, assuming you have the tools that is. Look at Monty23s build. 30k+ miles on a bottom end build like that with a single turbo. No balancing, no fancy machine work, etc.

    People will say otherwise, but it can be done for this cheap and reliably if the proper steps are taken. It isnít worth the cash for a 605 motor to go full blown with head work. The hp to dollar ratio just isnít there.

  34. #74
    Senior Member Four Rings christianb5s4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmer009 View Post
    How much gain do you think you got with your set up christian???

    Do you think a valve job would if better than a port and polish????? (Dollar for dollar)

    I still wonder if the stock heads in stock form are gonna stop me from hitting 800hp. My goal is less than that but I am thinking new lifters and springs and the head should be good to go????
    No idea since I wasn't able to compare stock 2.7 heads/cams with ported 2.7 heads/RS4 cams with all else constant. However, the way the car pulls up top is noticeably stronger and I don't feel power trailing off at all at higher rpms. You lose some low-mid range torque in exchange.

    Just swapping in 2.8 or RS4 cams in 2.7 heads tends to yield 20whp or so if you're running larger turbos and the gains tend to increase as power levels go up. Here's some light reading on the subject:

    http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-shown-in-logs
    http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...s-experimental
    http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...s-in-2-7-heads
    Imola 2001 Stage 3 S4: 312K - 2.4sec FATs - Completely Refreshed/Built Motor - SRM K24s w/ Custom Turbosmart wastegates - Clutchmasters Stage 4 - Etspec - Cinesnow WG/Oil Lines - SRM V3 Intercoolers - AA built trans - 4:1 Diff - JHM Trio - 034 - H&R Coilovers - FCP - Bosch Motorsports - OZ Racing - SRM/SSAC exhaust - Tons of New OEM parts

  35. #75
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    It's funny how argumentive the people got in them threads over this. It makes it hard to read.

    So what I got from all that was for a ko4(under 500hp) car. 2.8 cams and heads are not worth it. If your going for something in the middle (500-650hp) 2.8 cams should be fine. Anything higher swap the whole head.

    eBay sells the 2.8 cams cheap enough. But I think it would be smart to replace the cam bearings when swapping them in. Here's a question, rpms are read at the crank right??? So at 5000rpms is the cam turning 10k rpms???

  36. #76
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    Rpms read at the crank but you're backwards. Two crank revolutions per cam revolution. Think about turning the engine over twice when checking timing marks.

    I don't think there are cam bearings exactly though. Just the bore through the head and caps.

  37. #77
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    Thank you. A buddy spun a cam bearing in his 5.0 (he thinks) but it got me to thinking.

    So has anyone just dropped a set of 2.8 cams in??? Did you just lube it up with break in oil or anything special???

  38. #78
    Veteran Member Four Rings bmoreS4's Avatar
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    As others have said, for the fun to cost ratio a well sorted k04 car is a great spot.

    I'm running K04s machined for RS6 wheels (both hot and cold) and all your typical stage 3 parts.

    Ran that setup for a year before adding Meth and its been a great car.
    Current:
    2001.5 B5 S4 - Stage 3 on Meth -- Thanks to Brad and Country Dubs
    2013 B8.5 S4 - EPL Stage 2 / EPL TCU
    2018 Atlas SEL Premium - Black on Black - Black Wheel Package

  39. #79
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    Well cost per hp a ko4 car is not going to win. Your spending 2200 for 250hp my single turbo set cost around 1000 that's new exsaust and w/m injection. It's not the best set up but I would like to think it's comparable to ko4's.

    So your running a hybrid ko4???

    I want the next step up with my car. And i think that is build the block some and all mantinace, then Slap on a bigger turbo capable of 700 or so hp and let it eat. I want to learn. That is why I hijacked this thread in the first place.

  40. #80
    Veteran Member Four Rings bmoreS4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trb1 View Post
    RPM H beam rods with ARP bolts, new gasket kit, Glyco rod brearings, and 2.8 cams. You wouldnít even have to pull your crank, and you could drop pistons back in with the same rings and you wouldnít have to hone it. You could do this for under a grand, assuming you have the tools that is. Look at Monty23s build. 30k+ miles on a bottom end build like that with a single turbo. No balancing, no fancy machine work, etc.

    People will say otherwise, but it can be done for this cheap and reliably if the proper steps are taken. It isnít worth the cash for a 605 motor to go full blown with head work. The hp to dollar ratio just isnít there.
    This is kinda how I was feeling as well.

    I'm not going to a 605 or higher, but I am interested by the GT28 guts K04 hybrid that is available, because the gains are good over the k04 and the cost is reasonable.

    Claims 500+whp on 91 oct, right now im on 93 and Meth and Im at about 410awhp so Ive been thinking about swapping.
    Current:
    2001.5 B5 S4 - Stage 3 on Meth -- Thanks to Brad and Country Dubs
    2013 B8.5 S4 - EPL Stage 2 / EPL TCU
    2018 Atlas SEL Premium - Black on Black - Black Wheel Package

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