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  1. #81
    Veteran Member Three Rings ElementR's Avatar
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    You can totally re-use pistons and rings, but just keep in mind that the condition of your engine will dictate whether or not that is a good idea. My rings were well worn after 130k miles many of which were at much higher boost/power and a lot of abuse I imagine from previous owners. So, I elected to build a donor engine with just new rings, bearings and rods. But after finding a scored cylinder, I had to bore over and get larger pistons...just food for thought - you learn how usable it all is as you tear it down.
    2001 Silver/Black S4, Built engine (RPM rods, ARP hardware, Mahle pistons, Supertech valvetrain, etc), Tial 605's @25psi on 93 oct, JHM FMIC, JHM full trans rebuilt/upgrade, 3" SS dp + CBE, Vast intake + bipipes + tune, ST Coilovers, Hotchkis Swaybars, RS4 wheels and interior goodies.

  2. #82
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    Thank you for the input. The point of building of motor is y make to handle the power increase we want to throw at it.

    My big question is how do I check the health of the crank and pistions???

    I plan on a cyilender hone, rods, rod bearings and new rings. At minimum.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Four Rings blitz2190's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmer009 View Post
    Thank you for the input. The point of building of motor is y make to handle the power increase we want to throw at it.

    My big question is how do I check the health of the crank and pistions???

    I plan on a cyilender hone, rods, rod bearings and new rings. At minimum.
    check cylinder play at the bottom and top of the cylinder, check for gouges in the walls, if there isn't much play and the walls still have visible healthy crosshatching then I would have it honed just to break the glaze, do rods, rings, and bearings and have yourself a strong bottom end. Thats the route I went.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trb1 View Post
    RPM H beam rods with ARP bolts, new gasket kit, Glyco rod brearings, and 2.8 cams. You wouldnít even have to pull your crank, and you could drop pistons back in with the same rings and you wouldnít have to hone it. You could do this for under a grand, assuming you have the tools that is. Look at Monty23s build. 30k+ miles on a bottom end build like that with a single turbo. No balancing, no fancy machine work, etc.

    People will say otherwise, but it can be done for this cheap and reliably if the proper steps are taken. It isnít worth the cash for a 605 motor to go full blown with head work. The hp to dollar ratio just isnít there.
    reliably? no, but it can be done, but everytime you do its a gamble of whether or not the rods are close enough to the stock ones, the stock cranks balance and how close to the limited tolerance that is. for the extra couple hundred bucks it was worth it to not have to build a 4k bottom end twice. I went with the RPM I-Beams, and they were significantly different than the stocks, not just in weight but where that weight is, which also effects the balance. People that say you don't need to balance just don't understand the tremendous force that few grams can have when rotating at high rpm, we are talking thousands of pounds of force trying to rip the block apart on every rotation. It may not explode the second you turn the key but the increase in wear is there and will eventually lead to an earlier failure.
    Never argue with an idiot, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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  4. #84
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by blitz2190 View Post

    reliably? no, but it can be done, but everytime you do its a gamble of whether or not the rods are close enough to the stock ones, the stock cranks balance and how close to the limited tolerance that is. for the extra couple hundred bucks it was worth it to not have to build a 4k bottom end twice. I went with the RPM I-Beams, and they were significantly different than the stocks, not just in weight but where that weight is, which also effects the balance. People that say you don't need to balance just don't understand the tremendous force that few grams can have when rotating at high rpm, we are talking thousands of pounds of force trying to rip the block apart on every rotation. It may not explode the second you turn the key but the increase in wear is there and will eventually lead to an earlier failure.
    Experiences Iíve had with rpm h beams is that theyíre closer in weight than factory rods. Even if you decide to have the entire rotating assembly balanced, tag on a few hundred more.

    The point Iím getting at is that know where to spend your money. 20k into a 2.7 is stupid when you can get so much performance for so much cheaper at the same reliability levels.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Four Rings blitz2190's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trb1 View Post
    Experiences Iíve had with rpm h beams is that theyíre closer in weight than factory rods. Even if you decide to have the entire rotating assembly balanced, tag on a few hundred more.

    The point Iím getting at is that know where to spend your money. 20k into a 2.7 is stupid when you can get so much performance for so much cheaper at the same reliability levels.
    it was about $270 to have it balanced, which is pennies when compared to building the engine and again its not the same reliability. Just because it didn't blow up on the first turn of the key does not automatically make it just as good. I don't have 20k into mine and it was still worth it. as for the rods being the same, again not the whole picture, the crank is balanced to the rods, and where their rotational and reciprocal weights are. Which are not the same as stock. Saying its fine because the rods are close to each other tells me you don't actually know what goes into balancing an assembly thus your opinion is just that an opinion. I know where to spend my money as well, and any reputable engine builder will tell you the same, its stupid not to balance when it could cost you double what you have into your engine if you don't.
    Never argue with an idiot, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
    2.7T Swap Wiring Guide (Psst this is a link)
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  6. #86
    Veteran Member Three Rings ElementR's Avatar
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    '07 Volvo S60R EFR 7163 Turbo, '93 Mustang Cobra Twin Turbo 347cid, '01 B5 S4 Tial 605's
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    Personally speaking, I would not flinch at balancing the crank for new rods when you open up the patient. It's pennies invested for the piece of mind. And frankly, I would never install new rods without balancing the crank... grams make a difference in balancing. I'm just a lowly powertrain systems engineer for a major auto company with a couple decades of experience though so please don't listen to me, LOL.
    2001 Silver/Black S4, Built engine (RPM rods, ARP hardware, Mahle pistons, Supertech valvetrain, etc), Tial 605's @25psi on 93 oct, JHM FMIC, JHM full trans rebuilt/upgrade, 3" SS dp + CBE, Vast intake + bipipes + tune, ST Coilovers, Hotchkis Swaybars, RS4 wheels and interior goodies.

  7. #87
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    I'd be far more concerned about having unbalanced flywheel vs rods to be honest and who is EVER balancing their flywheels?! Rods have a few grams difference (or none if you buy quality set!) while flywheels are on the most part undetermined amount of unbalance especially old OEM units with their internal springs/rubber stops all over the place. Also the flavor of the month aluminum "on the budget" FWs are almost guaranteed to not be balanced.

    If engines and cranks can survive having a weight that's wobbly as hell at one end (and thus amplifying the wobble over the whole length of crank), then a few grams of rod difference really doesn't make any difference.

    Plus isn't it a fact that factory rods are all over the place weight wise and factory assembly wasn't actually balanced in its fullness at all? I think they were only doing crank balancing without moving assembly attached to it.

  8. #88
    Senior Member Four Rings blitz2190's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julex View Post
    I'd be far more concerned about having unbalanced flywheel vs rods to be honest and who is EVER balancing their flywheels?! Rods have a few grams difference (or none if you buy quality set!) while flywheels are on the most part undetermined amount of unbalance especially old OEM units with their internal springs/rubber stops all over the place. Also the flavor of the month aluminum "on the budget" FWs are almost guaranteed to not be balanced.

    If engines and cranks can survive having a weight that's wobbly as hell at one end (and thus amplifying the wobble over the whole length of crank), then a few grams of rod difference really doesn't make any difference.

    Plus isn't it a fact that factory rods are all over the place weight wise and factory assembly wasn't actually balanced in its fullness at all? I think they were only doing crank balancing without moving assembly attached to it.
    you do realize that few grams translates into hundreds of pounds of force right? and having a balanced assembly matter much more than the flywheel(which can also wreak havoc if its that out of balance) and you dont balance with the parts attached, they are balanced individually and the crank is balanced with an appropriate bob weight matching the calculated wieght from the rod, piston, rings, and bearings (which the factory probably has for blueprint specs and calls it good with a certain allowable tolerance). I needed 2 grams removed from my crank to balance the new I-beams, 2 grams is a ton of weight to shave off. And to answer your question yes the I-Beams are good quality and were within .1 grams of each other when check by the machine shop.
    Never argue with an idiot, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
    2.7T Swap Wiring Guide (Psst this is a link)
    New Build In progress built 2.7 STK 2004 B6 A4- Thread and pic to come

  9. #89
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by blitz2190 View Post
    it was about $270 to have it balanced, which is pennies when compared to building the engine and again its not the same reliability. Just because it didn't blow up on the first turn of the key does not automatically make it just as good. I don't have 20k into mine and it was still worth it. as for the rods being the same, again not the whole picture, the crank is balanced to the rods, and where their rotational and reciprocal weights are. Which are not the same as stock. Saying its fine because the rods are close to each other tells me you don't actually know what goes into balancing an assembly thus your opinion is just that an opinion. I know where to spend my money as well, and any reputable engine builder will tell you the same, its stupid not to balance when it could cost you double what you have into your engine if you don't.
    Iím not going to sit and argue one way or another. I realize the intricacies that go into balancing a rotating assembly. Basic engine build cost: rod slap and spend money on a good turbo setup. Best bang for your buck. Itís been proven many times. Sure, itís not ideal. Essential? Id Have to say probably not. Especially if staying in stock rpm range. Take it for what itís worth. Just my experience.

  10. #90
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by blitz2190 View Post
    you do realize that few grams translates into hundreds of pounds of force right? and having a balanced assembly matter much more than the flywheel(which can also wreak havoc if its that out of balance) and you dont balance with the parts attached, they are balanced individually and the crank is balanced with an appropriate bob weight matching the calculated wieght from the rod, piston, rings, and bearings (which the factory probably has for blueprint specs and calls it good with a certain allowable tolerance). I needed 2 grams removed from my crank to balance the new I-beams, 2 grams is a ton of weight to shave off. And to answer your question yes the I-Beams are good quality and were within .1 grams of each other when check by the machine shop.
    I'll give you about 50lbf for that 2 grams at 8000rpms . Pistons push with much more force. And you saying that flywheel doesn't matter is a big fallacy because it is still riding on the same bearings are your rotating assembly, right? Flywheels are all over the place with balancing having far more than your 2g of unbalance on average built in. Somehow I have to yet hear of engine falling apart from severe inbalance in the assembly kind of pointing out that in the end it is not as critical as you might think.

    From physics perspective 2g is exactly nothing when at the same time you have about (pulling number out of my ass here) 1000g dangling on that rod bearing in the form of rod+piston+rings that need to be sometimes pushed with even more force (compression cycle) thus adding even more force the crank needs to work against on that particular rod journal. The kind of force mains experience with few grams of unbalance is insignificant in the reality.

  11. #91
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    Please correct me if im wrong ,don't you also balance the flywheel with the rotating assembly. Im pretty sure my south bend steel flywheel came neutrally balanced from the factory.
    The engine Machinist that im using is also going to check the balance on my flywheel.
    I agree with spending the extra cash and get all the machining your budget allows. Even if the factory engine came unbalanced and honed with no torque plate doesn't mean its the right way,especially when you are pushing these engines 2 or 3 times their orginal horsepower levels. Sure there are examples out that have just a rod swap and last. There is hidden horsepower power and reliability with a well machined and balanced engine. It would be very interesting to see dyno gragh of a fully machined and balanced engine vs a stock engine.

  12. #92
    Senior Member Three Rings YBLEGL's Avatar
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    I have built about 8 engines now with just rods, new bearings, rings, and gaskets. Im not saying this is the way to do it but if you buy a good set of rods that are a match set and all weigh the same you should have no problems. A few of these engines have 40-50k on them and not one customer has called me with a problem or a complaint. If you have the cash to spend I always recommend getting it balanced why not but if you are short on cash a rod slap is not a bad thing and it will hold up for years. If you are concerned about not having the cash to balance it then go the cheap route see link below.

    https://www.uspmotorsports.com/Engin...mper-2.7T.html
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  13. #93
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark00s4 View Post
    Please correct me if im wrong ,don't you also balance the flywheel with the rotating assembly. Im pretty sure my south bend steel flywheel came neutrally balanced from the factory.
    The engine Machinist that im using is also going to check the balance on my flywheel.
    I agree with spending the extra cash and get all the machining your budget allows. Even if the factory engine came unbalanced and honed with no torque plate doesn't mean its the right way,especially when you are pushing these engines 2 or 3 times their orginal horsepower levels. Sure there are examples out that have just a rod swap and last. There is hidden horsepower power and reliability with a well machined and balanced engine. It would be very interesting to see dyno gragh of a fully machined and balanced engine vs a stock engine.
    But then how about balancing with PP attached? How about with PP and disc sandwiched in there? Properly centered? and with tranny installed because input shaft is probably also not balanced? Do you rebalance whole clutch assembly every time you do anything with FW/clutch?

    Let's not forget about the other side of crank as well. I hope you budgeted in one of these fluidampr units to be attached to the front since stock rubber dampeners are known to be very unbalanced once the rubber deteriorates.

    How crazy do you get?

    I am simply playing devil's advocate here .

  14. #94
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    Very true. How crazy and how far do you take it.

  15. #95
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    They ride on bearings though????. And the harmonic balancer helps even smooth it out.

    There are two fources rotating fource (crank spin) and recipricating fource (piston up and down) Im sure you want them even with them selfs through the motor.

    But a pressure plate/ flywheel should act like a harmonic balancer right??? And should be balanced from the factory.

  16. #96
    Veteran Member Four Rings MacDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julex View Post
    But then how about balancing with PP attached? How about with PP and disc sandwiched in there? Properly centered? and with tranny installed because input shaft is probably also not balanced? Do you rebalance whole clutch assembly every time you do anything with FW/clutch?

    Let's not forget about the other side of crank as well. I hope you budgeted in one of these fluidampr units to be attached to the front since stock rubber dampeners are known to be very unbalanced once the rubber deteriorates.

    How crazy do you get?

    I am simply playing devil's advocate here .
    You can distill it down as far as you want it doesnt excuse skipping well known vital step of an engine build. Lets not reinvent the wheel.

    I wouldn't call what your saying playing devils advocate at all.

    Also use an ATI damper not a flying fluidamper

  17. #97
    Senior Member Four Rings blitz2190's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julex View Post
    I'll give you about 50lbf for that 2 grams at 8000rpms . Pistons push with much more force. And you saying that flywheel doesn't matter is a big fallacy because it is still riding on the same bearings are your rotating assembly, right? Flywheels are all over the place with balancing having far more than your 2g of unbalance on average built in. Somehow I have to yet hear of engine falling apart from severe inbalance in the assembly kind of pointing out that in the end it is not as critical as you might think.

    From physics perspective 2g is exactly nothing when at the same time you have about (pulling number out of my ass here) 1000g dangling on that rod bearing in the form of rod+piston+rings that need to be sometimes pushed with even more force (compression cycle) thus adding even more force the crank needs to work against on that particular rod journal. The kind of force mains experience with few grams of unbalance is insignificant in the reality.
    did I say it doesn't matter? I believe the exact phase was "and having a balanced assembly matter much more than the flywheel(which can also wreak havoc if its that out of balance) " for two reasons, if you are buying half way decent flywheel it comes balanced to a certain degree from the manufacture. if not you shouldn't be buying from them. second, your changing the reciprocal mass (upper end of the rod which was very much lighter on mine, which effects the harmonics of the engine more so than the rotational mass in respect to force on the bearings) when you change the rods. you guys that keep arguing that the rods being the same as each other obviously have no clue on how the different weights as well as their weight distribution effect the entire assembly.
    Last edited by blitz2190; 02-20-2018 at 01:52 PM.
    Never argue with an idiot, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
    2.7T Swap Wiring Guide (Psst this is a link)
    New Build In progress built 2.7 STK 2004 B6 A4- Thread and pic to come

  18. #98
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    So from my research the harmonic balancer and the fly wheel are completely opposite and can do the same thing.

    (Please correct me if I'm wrong)

    The harmonic balancer mainly helps adsorbs the fource from pistions (reciprocating) fource from the power stroke. It helps to smooth out acceleration.

    The fly wheel does help with the rotating fource. Not a lot, and to turn weight takes power. but also makes makes it easier to drive. And let's the clutch engage and disengage easily.

    I think both need to be addressed. In my case I currently have a lwfw. I am going to stick with it and spend some money on a harmonic balancer.

    Should I plan on getting it resurfaced if I'm getting a new clutch?? And swapping it to the new block????

  19. #99
    Established Member Four Rings JustManson's Avatar
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    Basic engine build cost

    Yes you want to resurface your Flywheel if you are replacing the clutch.

    A lightened Flywheel doesnít exactly make it easier for your clutch to engage or disengage... in the simplest way I can explain it allows your motor to turn the Flywheel faster with less reciprocating mass to have to move. This will directly lead to faster revs and in turn quicker shifts.



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    Last edited by JustManson; 02-21-2018 at 12:51 AM.

  20. #100
    Veteran Member Four Rings MacDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmer009 View Post
    So from my research the harmonic balancer and the fly wheel are completely opposite and can do the same thing.

    (Please correct me if I'm wrong)

    The harmonic balancer mainly helps adsorbs the fource from pistions (reciprocating) fource from the power stroke. It helps to smooth out acceleration.

    The fly wheel does help with the rotating fource. Not a lot, and to turn weight takes power. but also makes makes it easier to drive. And let's the clutch engage and disengage easily.

    I think both need to be addressed. In my case I currently have a lwfw. I am going to stick with it and spend some money on a harmonic balancer.

    Should I plan on getting it resurfaced if I'm getting a new clutch?? And swapping it to the new block????
    A flywheel absorbs power on the power stroke and releases it during the other 3 strokes.

    A harmonic balancer is to stop your crank from turning into a musicians tuning fork.

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