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  1. #41
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    I am running TIAL turbo inlets with Tial hoses for DVs, the other side of DVs has stock rubber hoses. Vacuum lines were replaced at some point. Pretty normal set up as Tial hoses are basically stock diameter just shaped so that they fit tial turbo inlets.

    One thing to note that in my situation it is the newer set up with 90 degree (not 45 degree) Y-pipe nipple and that black check valve. No F-Hose. I am not very familiar with early set ups but you seem to have deleted some hose connection to the N249/Vac Reservoir side of system... Is the vac side capable of locking/storing vacuum at all? Because if it is not... then N249 has no vacuum to supply to DVs during load change over and this is why your system behaves like it has "N249" delete and "Too small of DVs). Maybe it is time to restore the stuff back to stock set up .

    I would also check ECU output function to ensure that N249 is getting the signal from ECU e.g. there is no circuit break between ECU and N249 or that ECU has functional N249 output.

    ECU has no programming to automatically test and report N249 circuit problems and this is why unplugging N249 will not trip fault codes.

  2. #42
    Veteran Member Three Rings rnagy86's Avatar
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    Oh sorry those are pictures from the internet that show the two different setups. I have a completely OEM RS4 setup, nothing is deleted :)

    The N249 has no circuit problems, engine output tests can be used to test that.

  3. #43
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    Is your vacuum reservoir holding vacuum after you shut off the engine? If it doesn't (and you have effectively vacuum leak on vacuum side of system) or its capacity is greatly diminished (because the vacuum canister is collapsed), you won't have enough of vacuum to pull out the boost accumulated in N249/lines/DVs.

    Also, what's the orientation of DVs? If they're backwards and turbo boost is fed via side port instead of bottom, then you might have a problem during transition.

    Normally during WOT the bottom port boost equalizes with upper vacuum port boost and only the spring is effectively holding the DV closed. Once the the bottom port boost exceeds spring+vacuum port boost the DV opens up. Since spring is I think about 5psi, then as soon as manifold boost falls more than 5psi below charge pipes pressure they should start opening.

    If the DVs are installed sideways then you change the equation (this only applies to membrane DVs though like the stock/710N). Feeding boost via side port causes the charge pipe boost not to act against spring+manifold pressure but in unisom to push the plunger with even more force... The transition dynamics go out of the window too.

  4. #44
    Veteran Member Three Rings rnagy86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julex View Post
    Is your vacuum reservoir holding vacuum after you shut off the engine? If it doesn't (and you have effectively vacuum leak on vacuum side of system) or its capacity is greatly diminished (because the vacuum canister is collapsed), you won't have enough of vacuum to pull out the boost accumulated in N249/lines/DVs.

    Also, what's the orientation of DVs? If they're backwards and turbo boost is fed via side port instead of bottom, then you might have a problem during transition.

    Normally during WOT the bottom port boost equalizes with upper vacuum port boost and only the spring is effectively holding the DV closed. Once the the bottom port boost exceeds spring+vacuum port boost the DV opens up. Since spring is I think about 5psi, then as soon as manifold boost falls more than 5psi below charge pipes pressure they should start opening.

    If the DVs are installed sideways then you change the equation (this only applies to membrane DVs though like the stock/710N). Feeding boost via side port causes the charge pipe boost not to act against spring+manifold pressure but in unisom to push the plunger with even more force... The transition dynamics go out of the window too.
    My vacuum reservoir is holding fine, as I said many times, everything was tested and all checks out. DV orientation is OEM as well, pressure goes to side port.

  5. #45
    Veteran Member Three Rings rnagy86's Avatar
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    Installed a 2nd vacuum reservoir and a gauge to make sure it's under vacuum under boost and it is,
    however it did not fix the issue, so it's still something else.

    julex the 770 is not a gtx chra, is it? what is your peak MAF reading?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnagy86 View Post
    julex the 770 is not a gtx chra, is it? what is your peak MAF reading?

    I can get you the numbers I just don't have them handy now.

    The car (allroad ~4300lb) put down ~650whp on 93 octane fuel in US, it pulled 7.3s 60-130mph so "not bad". This is why I am very confident that stock set up is enough.

  7. #47
    Veteran Member Three Rings rnagy86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julex View Post
    I can get you the numbers I just don't have them handy now.

    The car (allroad ~4300lb) put down ~650whp on 93 octane fuel in US, it pulled 7.3s 60-130mph so "not bad". This is why I am very confident that stock set up is enough.
    I have no idea what's going on. I've also checked other cars as well and they are all doing it. K04, RS6-K04 hybrid. All of them doing it.
    I've also verified my car with an LED hooked up to the N249 and indeed it gets activated just fine, all hardware checks out on all of the cars
    and still the issue is there. The K04 RS4 had forge fmdv008 valves and that does not make a difference either. I also doubt that the OEM valves
    are not enough for OEM turbos. This is the k04 car, the spike is not that harsh though.



    I've also tried reversing the DVs on my car to see if that helps, but it did not, there is still a spike .... *BUT* that made the car spool 250rpm faster and spike less .2 bars less at liftoff.

    So whoever tells me what's wrong gets a free package with goodies :D
    Last edited by rnagy86; 11-27-2017 at 08:55 AM.

  8. #48
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    so you have boost coming in the bottom or the sides now?

  9. #49
    Veteran Member Three Rings rnagy86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S4James View Post
    so you have boost coming in the bottom or the sides now?

    OEM is coming in from the side port and reversed is coming in on the bottom port. So reversed means
    not OEM .. so boost coming in on the bottom port now.

    I am almost certain that they are just not enough for the job, flow wise. There can't be 10 cars with the same
    issue on different turbos with all of them having a ghost issue, since all the hardware is correct.
    Most people won't see this because they don't run the 5120 hack so they can't see anything over 1.5 bars
    and having a boost gauge in the manifold won't show it either, because we need to measure this pre-throttle.

    Julex's car is magic it seems :)

  10. #50
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    In my experience the 710N is just as much a piece of garbage as the prior ones were. I had problems with them buzzing on part throttle, diaphrams failing.. after replacing them 2 twice in 2 seasons I ditched that stuff forever. Been running VF engineering ones for over 10 years without anything more than a yearly disasembly/cleaning/lubrication... No issues with boost spike either.

    Internally I dont think they can flow as much as the aftermarket valves either.

  11. #51
    Senior Member Four Rings christianb5s4's Avatar
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    I run the 034 BPVs after running 701Ns and believe the metal diaphragm and serviceability (and without data, I believe more flow) are huge advantages over 710Ns similar to other aftermarket options.
    Imola 2001 Stage 3 S4: 308K - 2.5sec FATs - Completely Refreshed/Built Motor - SRM K24s w/ Custom Turbosmart wastegates - Clutchmasters Stage 4 - Etspec - Cinesnow WG/Oil Lines - SRM V3 Intercoolers - AA built trans - 4:1 Diff - JHM Trio - 034 - H&R Coilovers - FCP - Bosch Motorsports - OZ Racing - SRM/SSAC exhaust - Tons of New OEM parts

  12. #52
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    Ok, just for fun, how about we settle this and look at things from a fundamental perspective? I'm actually kind of curious what the solution is here.

    What is the inlet port size (internal) for the 710N? What is the air temp at liftoff (intake manifold temp will work, since I doubt you have a temp sensor immediately before the throttle valve)? I'll wait for the answers....
    Last edited by brokenwrench; 11-28-2017 at 02:35 PM.

  13. #53
    Veteran Member Three Rings rnagy86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokenwrench View Post
    Ok, just for fun, how about we settle this and look at things from a fundamental perspective? I'm actually kind of curious what the solution is here.

    What is the inlet port size (internal) for the 710N? What is the air temp at liftoff (intake manifold temp will work, since I doubt you have a temp sensor immediately before the throttle valve)? I'll wait for the answers....
    The 710N has a 22 mm ID port on both sides. The temp sensor is right after the throttle body so the difference between the MAP and IAT sensor should be 0 in temperature.
    On my car (gtx2860 gen II) the IATs were 20 degC, on the other car with K04s the IATs were around 50 degC (dyno).

    My car pulls around 600g/s at redline at 2.4 bars of boost, so theoretically it would be possible to calculate if the flow is enough on the DVs, but I don't know the math for that.

  14. #54
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    Ok, here we go:

    Assume:
    1. standard gas constant for air (287.058 J/(kgK))
    2. Atmospheric air at STP
    3. DV allows full cross-sectional area while open (dia=22cm) (i.e. minimal fluid losses across DV, treated as an orifice in a pipe for this case)

    Calculated:
    1. Air density at liftoff, rho=4.04 kg/m^3 (based on the stated temperature of 20C at the manifold, and may I just say you must have one hell of an IC setup to achieve temps that low at full boost!)
    2. mass flow rate through each DV=MAF/2=300g/s
    3. Pressure difference across DV while open, p=3.5 bar (assuming -0.1 bar on the low pressure side)

    According to the equation for fluid flow through a pipe orifice (http://www.efunda.com/formulae/fluid...meter.cfm#calc) the actual mass flow rate should be 0.386 kg/s (386 g/s), meaning you are using roughly 78% of the available flow rate through each DV. What we don't know is whether the DV is opening completely, and how quickly it's opening. These calculations are based on a static case since I don't have the model for the DV actuation.

    Basically, the 710N is more than adequate for your setup given it's working correctly. However, assuming the temperature/density are correct, this gives you an inlet velocity of 47 m/s for the DV which would cause some substantial fluid losses through the DV itself. My assumption based on all this is you have something going on that's causing your DV to not open fully/quickly, but upgrading to a larger DV would allow for fewer fluid losses and a greater factor of safety when something goes wrong (e.g. insufficient vacuum to actuate the DV quickly). But since this is truly a transient case, there may still be some work to do.

  15. #55
    Veteran Member Three Rings rnagy86's Avatar
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    IATs are low because it is 5C outside now and I am running WMI as well. Also the K04s flow is
    way less than this so either the math is completely wrong, or with the DV fully open the diaphragm
    covers a good amount of area inside the DV.

  16. #56
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    Where is your WMI nozzle installed?

    I have a couple 710N's sitting on the dead engine in my garage, I haven't put a vacuum pump on them to see how far open the diaphragm moves, I guess that would be the next step. Stay tuned...
    Last edited by brokenwrench; 11-29-2017 at 08:57 AM.

  17. #57
    Veteran Member Three Rings rnagy86's Avatar
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    right after the coolers in the bi-pipes, two 1.2mm aquamist noozles

  18. #58
    Veteran Member Three Rings rnagy86's Avatar
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    This is a 710N opened fully, the diaphragm does not move anymore. The gap that you can see
    is 6.2mm. Even if the port ID is 22 more than half of it is a direct wall :)


  19. #59
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    Yeah like I said, I don't think these things flow all that well. Someone well versed in fluid dynamics could probably tell you what would be going on there. in a reversed and normal orientations.

  20. #60
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    Alrighty then, knowing better about the natural restriction of the 710N you're currently utilizing roughly 200x the available flow rate for your DV! Unfortunately, that means you'll need like 20 710N's on each side to fully eliminate the restriction. But the pressure spike only lasts for a few milliseconds because we're dealing with a transient case.

    The good news is increasing cross-sectional area in a pipe/orifice is fairly easy; for example doubling the diameter roughly quadruples the area (i.e. flow rate). In your case, I would recommend you look for another DV with a cross-sectional area of roughly 400mm fully open (leaves a little room for wear/age). A 710N modified to allow the diaphragm to fully open and leave no restriction would theoretically work, but if anyone out there has more insight regarding the geometry of larger DV's they would like to share, it would save me the mental strain of designing my own version.

    But just so everyone here understands I know I'm no expert on DV's, I'm just running a simple analysis on a specific fluids problem.

  21. #61
    Veteran Member Three Rings rnagy86's Avatar
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    I've started to look already but most of the Bosch copies are not going to cut it even if they are piston
    style because they are not tall enough and pistons will be covering up half of the ports as well and I
    already emailed some vendors where the looks of the DV showed that there might be more space
    for the piston to travel upwards, and asked them to measure it up or at least send a picture of them
    being open. Obviously buying 10 different DVs is not an option because that would be just too expensive :)

  22. #62
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    Have you thought about maybe replacing your DVs with larger diameter wastegates?

    Wastegates operate off boost actuation as opposed to vacuum actuation on DVs, but you can choose your inlet and outlet diameter. Maybe they can be oriented to run of vacuum as well? Or maybe you can find a vacuum actuated wastegate? Do they even exist? I am unsure of the cracking vacuum of the DV's, but you could get a wastegate spring pressure to match?

    Not sure if that would actually work. Idk, just throwing it out there

  23. #63
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    Can you make sure that logging with N249 active and then inactive yields different overboost behavior? Simply disconnect the N249 electrical connector to deactivate it.

    If the logs are the same... You know where I am going with this.

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    Can you make sure that logging with N249 active and then inactive yields different overboost behavior? Simply disconnect the N249 electrical connector to deactivate it.

    If the logs are the same... You know where I am going with this.

  25. #65
    Veteran Member Three Rings rnagy86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julex View Post
    Can you make sure that logging with N249 active and then inactive yields different overboost behavior? Simply disconnect the N249 electrical connector to deactivate it.

    If the logs are the same... You know where I am going with this.
    I do and it makes sense, I will test when the weather allows, I parked the car in the garage for the winter,
    but I will take it out when I can to test. Still trying to find the best blowing DVs :)

    Currently on the list:
    - GFB DV+
    - GFB Mach 2
    - Turbosmart Kompact Plumb Back
    - Custom machined ones

  26. #66
    Veteran Member Four Rings Zba's Avatar
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    Have Flyboy put them on his flow bench

  27. #67
    Veteran Member Three Rings rnagy86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julex View Post
    Can you make sure that logging with N249 active and then inactive yields different overboost behavior? Simply disconnect the N249 electrical connector to deactivate it.

    If the logs are the same... You know where I am going with this.
    Today I've tried and it makes no difference at all. Also got 2 huge DVs from a friend where the piston goes up so high that it does not cover any part
    of the 22mm ports. Still no difference at all.



    Fuck.... :(

  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnagy86 View Post
    Today I've tried and it makes no difference at all. Also got 2 huge DVs from a friend where the piston goes up so high that it does not cover any part
    of the 22mm ports. Still no difference at all.
    :(
    Then it looks like it's a matter of reaction time. The pressure wave from the closing throttle valve builds up faster than the DV can react to release it, regardless of how far it opens. And if I'm correct, likely the only solution would be an electronically activated DV with custom high-order controller - the vacuum system just doesn't have the sort of speed necessary to respond to the condition.

    But to be blunt, I doubt you're the first person with this setup so the question becomes how far are you willing to go to completely "fix" something that most people would probably just live with? If you're willing to go through the process, you can start measuring more vehicles - larger sample size. Post the raw data with accurate setup info and we can start comparing the time-rate responses in each to determine any significant differences/improvements between them.

    Hhmm, I wonder if a DV with integrated N249 and closer vacuum reservoir would reduce the reaction time enough...

  29. #69
    Veteran Member Three Rings rnagy86's Avatar
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    Most people do not see this, because they do not run an 5120 hack on their ECU.
    I have one car I logged earlier that does not have an 5120 hack and obviously
    there is nothing you can see about 2560 mbar, so you can't see the spike either,
    and you can't hear it due to it being only a K04.

    I am not too worried because I am running anti-surge compressor housings
    so that will help, but this affects my spool during shifts if I actually stall the comp.
    wheels.

    The other problem is that shit might start to blow up (boost hoses) at 3 bars of boost :)

    I think i will go with 4 DVs in January for a test. Will weld up custom bi-pipes to upgrade
    the RS4 ones and I am gonna add additional ports for DVs.

    Also I did not measure the ID of the ports on the RS4 bi-pipes, but they seem smaller than
    22mm.

  30. #70
    Veteran Member Four Rings NOTORIOUS VR's Avatar
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    What do the other European S4's (like the TTE cars) run? They seem to be running 2.8+ BAR all the time.
    E36 DYNO TUNING WIRING PARTS

  31. #71
    Veteran Member Three Rings rnagy86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
    What do the other European S4's (like the TTE cars) run? They seem to be running 2.8+ BAR all the time.
    Most are running OEM. Checked the hannover limo and he runs OEM DVs, but not a 5120 hack, so they have no idea what happens over the MAP limit,
    or they simply do not care.

    But this is a problem on K04s as well if you check previous posts.

  32. #72
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    i just checked my logs.. no spike.

  33. #73
    Veteran Member Three Rings rnagy86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S4James View Post
    i just checked my logs.. no spike.
    show a screenshot please

  34. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zba View Post
    Have Flyboy put them on his flow bench
    This is gold!

    But seriously... Why are we not doing this?

  35. #75
    Veteran Member Four Rings Zba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowSfaux View Post
    This is gold!

    But seriously... Why are we not doing this?
    Need people willing to ship him some DVs to test

  36. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnagy86 View Post
    show a screenshot please
    check some of my threads, ive posted them before..

  37. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnagy86 View Post
    Most are running OEM. Checked the hannover limo and he runs OEM DVs, but not a 5120 hack, so they have no idea what happens over the MAP limit,
    or they simply do not care.
    As with before, I am pretty certain the Hannover limo car runs Tial units close to the turbo outlets (pre-IC). http://www.tialsport.com/index.php/t.../140-tialbvqrj

    I don't have any proof except that I saw the change to this setup in the buildup to a rocky 2017.

  38. #78
    Senior Member Four Rings christianb5s4's Avatar
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    Would those Tial BPVs work in stock placement and the stock/APR bi-pipe or would they need custom work to fit?
    Imola 2001 Stage 3 S4: 308K - 2.5sec FATs - Completely Refreshed/Built Motor - SRM K24s w/ Custom Turbosmart wastegates - Clutchmasters Stage 4 - Etspec - Cinesnow WG/Oil Lines - SRM V3 Intercoolers - AA built trans - 4:1 Diff - JHM Trio - 034 - H&R Coilovers - FCP - Bosch Motorsports - OZ Racing - SRM/SSAC exhaust - Tons of New OEM parts

  39. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnagy86 View Post
    Today I've tried and it makes no difference at all. Also got 2 huge DVs from a friend where the piston goes up so high that it does not cover any part
    of the 22mm ports. Still no difference at all.

    Fuck.... :(
    Because my (stock) DVs are capable of dumping full boost from Tial 770 turbos and yours are incapable of dumping anything at all on similar set up, it tells me that your DVs are not opening at all. So I think that your tune is jacked (if as you say electrically N249 opens during ECU output test as well as internally re-routes manifold to vacuum port intake path when signaled) and is not signaling N249 to open vacuum port to begin opening DVs during transition...

    I don't have the access to laptop now but I can dig later into what map governs N249 activity. I wouldn't be surprised if some map for 5120 hack was forgotten or improperly modified and now ECU doesn't activate N249 when it should.

    Maybe do a quick hack and hook something up to N249 wiring (LED or whatever) so that you can see if it gets the signal when you let off the gas pedal. The N249 should also be active a lot during part throttle to recirculate boost and shorten air path when actual boost is not needed but turbos are still making it.

  40. #80
    Veteran Member Three Rings rnagy86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julex View Post
    Maybe do a quick hack and hook something up to N249 wiring (LED or whatever) so that you can see if it gets the signal when you let off the gas pedal. The N249 should also be active a lot during part throttle to recirculate boost and shorten air path when actual boost is not needed but turbos are still making it.
    That map is handled correctly, as I said earlier I already had a LED installed and the moment i liftoff the led is lit at a WOT pull as well.

    If you could it would be really helpful if you could upload a log file with B_ldsua and if you could measure vacuum at the reservoir. I would like to know what
    amount of vacuum is available to you and would like to see a log to compare.

    Thanks

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