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  1. #1
    Senior Member Two Rings mjames's Avatar
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    Just test drove S4, C63, and M3 ... impressions

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    I drive a 2010 Audi S4 with 92k miles. Been lovely, though somewhat boring, getting long in the tooth. In the market for a new sports sedan (kiddo on way), so I test drove a new M3, C63, and S4 today. I realize the S4 is not comparable, but hear me out. I would be comfortable spending up to $85k and this was my first time driving these cars. I used to own two BMWs (E46 M3) and my impressions were quite surprising...

    BMW M3 -- Looks the best, felt "tightest" in a good way, was aggressive and loud with ZCP (though loud doesn't mean great-sounding) ... but the interior (this one didn't have full leather) felt meh ... dated, boring, very 2013-ish. I wasn't completely blown away for $80k+.

    Mercedes C63 -- Would have driven the S if they had one. By far the best engine and exhaust, obviously. Interior ... looks great from a distance, but when you are in it, you see hard plastics and cheapness. Some of the buttons by the gear-shifter felt cheap. My biggest gripe was the cheap hard plastic material my right leg would rest on while driving -- yuck! Also hated the COMMAND system and the nav screen looks ugly. Lastly, the panoramic sunroof has a thin screen when closed that's completely translucent. I hate that, when I have it closed I want to block out the sun. Overall, love the sounds and power ... that's it.

    Audi S4 -- They had a pretty loaded Premium Plus with 19s. Yes, it looks less aggressive than the others, but still very sharp. Immediately the cold start exhaust in the showroom impressed me, it sounded much better than the old S4. Not M3-loud, but aggressive. Interior feels a LEAGUE above the others ... fresh, updated, all that new technology is awesome. And I kind of like the seat massagers for a DD. Diamond-stitched leather, alcantara, flat-bottom steering wheel, just felt RIGHT when sitting in it. Driving impressions: feels a step faster than my old S4, and the biggest change is the exhaust is WAY nicer and louder, which was my biggest gripe before.

    Overall impressions -- The BMW and MB are faster and $20k more expensive. But my gut reaction was are these really necessary? They feel like overkill for a DD, and the S4 is so much more practical and yet still fast, fun to drive, and luxurious. It feels like a great car without trying too hard or being too ostentatious. I am seriously leaning towards the Audi (with Black Optics). I wasn't even going to look at Audi because no RS4, but I'm glad I did. Major thumbs up. Oh: and I can get a 2018 custom-ordered S4 in 60-90 days, whereas the others don't even have ordering guides out for 2018, so if I wanted the M3, I wouldn't be getting it until September.
    2010 Audi S4 - Ibis White - Magma Red/Black
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Four Rings
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    Nice review .. I definitely understand ur gripe about plastic with a high price tag


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  3. #3
    Veteran Member Four Rings LINDW4LL's Avatar
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    Good read.

    The C63 and M3 are obviously significantly better performers than the S4, but if you feel you won't benefit from the added performance, then "settling" for the S4 and saving the extra cash certainly isn't a bad choice. I agree on its interior being the best of the bunch, and it makes for a great DD.

    One thing to note- last I checked, Black Optics is still not available in the US- so you'll have to wait for that to become an option. Could not see it until MY2019.
    -Hayden


  4. #4
    Senior Member Four Rings
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    You can order it now


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    German Clunker and a British Clunker

  5. #5
    Active Member Two Rings mrpoker's Avatar
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    You hit on all the points that I would point out :) You really can't beat the overall package the S4 offers at it's own price range, period!
    Last edited by mrpoker; 04-20-2017 at 08:09 PM.
    On Order : 2018 S4 Technik Brilliant Black - ETA April 28th
    Currently Driving : Cirrus White MY15 CLA45 AMG

  6. #6
    Active Member Two Rings
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    Would you consider the s6 in that range? I certainly would.

  7. #7
    Established Member Two Rings dbuxton13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LINDW4LL View Post
    Good read.

    The C63 and M3 are obviously significantly better performers than the S4, but if you feel you won't benefit from the added performance, then "settling" for the S4 and saving the extra cash certainly isn't a bad choice. I agree on its interior being the best of the bunch, and it makes for a great DD.

    One thing to note- last I checked, Black Optics is still not available in the US- so you'll have to wait for that to become an option. Could not see it until MY2019.
    See the Black Optics thread, it's available for order only. Not on the Audi website yet, just order guides.
    B9 S4

  8. #8
    Veteran Member Four Rings LINDW4LL's Avatar
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    Just test drove S4, C63, and M3 ... impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by dbuxton13 View Post
    See the Black Optics thread, it's available for order only. Not on the Audi website yet, just order guides.
    Just saw- great news, and thanks for the correction.

    I'd only been checking the configurator.


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  9. #9
    Registered Member One Ring
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    I agree totally

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Four Rings sean1.8t's Avatar
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    Those cars compete with Audi's RS4 (if they bring it to the states again).

    The S4 is in the segment that includes the 340i and c450/c43-AMG.

    To each their own but after relinquishing all of my bias', I chose the Benz. Though all are superb cars at the end of the day.
    Current:
    2016 Mercedes-Benz C450 AMG: OE-Tuning stg2 tune w/ Weistec DPs - 450hp/530tq Winter mode (Blizzak WS80s/Thule Force cargo box)
    1988 Harley-Davidson Sportster 1200: Ported & Cam'd w/ Screamin' Eagle exhaust.

    Previous:
    2002 Audi A4 1.8TQM: Full GT28RS on meth w/everything else.
    2001.5 Audi A4 1.8TQMS: Tune and exhaust.
    1999 Subaru Legacy Outback wagon Manual: Bone stock.
    Nothing else worth mentioning.

  11. #11
    Active Member Two Rings mrpoker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean1.8t View Post
    Those cars compete with Audi's RS4 (if they bring it to the states again).

    The S4 is in the segment that includes the 340i and c450/c43-AMG.

    To each their own but after relinquishing all of my bias', I chose the Benz. Though all are superb cars at the end of the day.
    The fact that he was able to compare the car to the c63 and m3 and ended up choosing the S4 shows you that they are not far off from each other! On top of that the C63 and M3 have a way heftier price tag!
    On Order : 2018 S4 Technik Brilliant Black - ETA April 28th
    Currently Driving : Cirrus White MY15 CLA45 AMG

  12. #12
    Registered Member One Ring
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    The C63 and M3 are great cars. but unless you are going to track them often, I'll take the S4. It's more comfortable to every day drive by far and it actually has more power than you need.

    Geoff

  13. #13
    Senior Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by gm56 View Post
    it actually has more power than you need.

    Geoff
    Impossible


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  14. #14
    Active Member Two Rings mrpoker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug97gxe View Post
    Impossible


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    Ya I can't get enough of more power, they easily could of had this engine near 400hp :(
    On Order : 2018 S4 Technik Brilliant Black - ETA April 28th
    Currently Driving : Cirrus White MY15 CLA45 AMG

  15. #15
    Veteran Member Four Rings sean1.8t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpoker View Post
    The fact that he was able to compare the car to the c63 and m3 and ended up choosing the S4 shows you that they are not far off from each other! On top of that the C63 and M3 have a way heftier price tag!
    It just shows that the OP prefers a more subtle and comfortable daily driver. The 63 and M cars are very raw and harsh. To daily drive them takes a truly dedicated enthusiast.
    Current:
    2016 Mercedes-Benz C450 AMG: OE-Tuning stg2 tune w/ Weistec DPs - 450hp/530tq Winter mode (Blizzak WS80s/Thule Force cargo box)
    1988 Harley-Davidson Sportster 1200: Ported & Cam'd w/ Screamin' Eagle exhaust.

    Previous:
    2002 Audi A4 1.8TQM: Full GT28RS on meth w/everything else.
    2001.5 Audi A4 1.8TQMS: Tune and exhaust.
    1999 Subaru Legacy Outback wagon Manual: Bone stock.
    Nothing else worth mentioning.

  16. #16
    Active Member Two Rings mrpoker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean1.8t View Post
    It just shows that the OP prefers a more subtle and comfortable daily driver. The 63 and M cars are very raw and harsh. To daily drive them takes a truly dedicated enthusiast.
    I agree. I tried to drive the CLA45 as a daily driver but its just too uncomfortable. Very very fun car to drive but not as a daily driver, now I can get best of both worlds with the B9 S4 :D
    On Order : 2018 S4 Technik Brilliant Black - ETA April 28th
    Currently Driving : Cirrus White MY15 CLA45 AMG

  17. #17
    Veteran Member Four Rings sean1.8t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpoker View Post
    I agree. I tried to drive the CLA45 as a daily driver but its just too uncomfortable. Very very fun car to drive but not as a daily driver, now I can get best of both worlds with the B9 S4 :D
    Yep, I agree with that as well. Congrats on the B9.

    All the debates over which is better between the c43 & S4, there is one thing to remember, they're both amazing cars. Can't really go wrong with either of them
    Current:
    2016 Mercedes-Benz C450 AMG: OE-Tuning stg2 tune w/ Weistec DPs - 450hp/530tq Winter mode (Blizzak WS80s/Thule Force cargo box)
    1988 Harley-Davidson Sportster 1200: Ported & Cam'd w/ Screamin' Eagle exhaust.

    Previous:
    2002 Audi A4 1.8TQM: Full GT28RS on meth w/everything else.
    2001.5 Audi A4 1.8TQMS: Tune and exhaust.
    1999 Subaru Legacy Outback wagon Manual: Bone stock.
    Nothing else worth mentioning.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Four Rings
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    I daily drove a 600whp 3200 lb car.. power is something you learn and get used to over time and you end up wanting more .. the c63 and M4 might be intimidating at first but with enough seat time u find its just not enough


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  19. #19
    Senior Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug97gxe View Post
    I daily drove a 600whp 3200 lb RWD car.. power is something you learn and get used to over time and you end up wanting more .. the c63 and M4 might be intimidating at first but with enough seat time u find its just not enough


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    German Clunker and a British Clunker

  20. #20
    Senior Member Four Rings jokingjimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug97gxe View Post
    I daily drove a 600whp 3200 lb car.. power is something you learn and get used to over time and you end up wanting more .. the c63 and M4 might be intimidating at first but with enough seat time u find its just not enough


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    That's the true issue isn't it? Anything we get we'll wish it went faster. "Stock" just isn't in our DNA. For me my struggle is when is my car fast enough? Really it's pretty much there, even if only single pulley stage 2.

    I might look at the RS3 or RS4. But realistically, ok pay my little bad girl of and keep her, because when I'm done with my last few mods on her, I'll basically have a manual RS4 equivalent lol.

    Although those cross-stitched/massaging seats are tempting...
    Everything graciously mispelled by Android

    2014 S4 Prestige | Nogaro Blue Pearl | 6MT + Sports Diff | B&O | Black/Nogaro Blue Alcantaera | Stuff* | 3M Crystalline
    2013 A5 Premium Plus | Moonlight Blue Metallic | 3M Crystalline

  21. #21
    Established Member Three Rings shoe3k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjames View Post

    BMW M3 -- Looks the best, felt "tightest" in a good way, was aggressive and loud with ZCP (though loud doesn't mean great-sounding) ... but the interior (this one didn't have full leather) felt meh ... dated, boring, very 2013-ish. I wasn't completely blown away for $80k+.

    Mercedes C63 -- Would have driven the S if they had one. By far the best engine and exhaust, obviously. Interior ... looks great from a distance, but when you are in it, you see hard plastics and cheapness. Some of the buttons by the gear-shifter felt cheap. My biggest gripe was the cheap hard plastic material my right leg would rest on while driving -- yuck! Also hated the COMMAND system and the nav screen looks ugly. Lastly, the panoramic sunroof has a thin screen when closed that's completely translucent. I hate that, when I have it closed I want to block out the sun. Overall, love the sounds and power ... that's it.

    Audi S4 -- They had a pretty loaded Premium Plus with 19s. Yes, it looks less aggressive than the others, but still very sharp. Immediately the cold start exhaust in the showroom impressed me, it sounded much better than the old S4. Not M3-loud, but aggressive. Interior feels a LEAGUE above the others ... fresh, updated, all that new technology is awesome. And I kind of like the seat massagers for a DD. Diamond-stitched leather, alcantara, flat-bottom steering wheel, just felt RIGHT when sitting in it. Driving impressions: feels a step faster than my old S4, and the biggest change is the exhaust is WAY nicer and louder, which was my biggest gripe before.
    I'm not sure why you are looking at the M3 or C63 because they offer a completely different type of driving experience. I can tell you that the M3 and C63 are just different in every aspect. I noticed that you mentioned that the S4 is more practical and that speed isn't the most important part you are looking for. It is confusing because there are other cars in the segment that the S4 belongs in like the BMW (340) or the MB (C43). Honestly, I don't know what you would want in a response because to me it's almost like you don't understand the difference between these segments or you never really drove any of these cars. Did you try the Quadrifoglio or ATS-V? They are in the same segment as the M3 and C63.


    PS - The 2018 ordering guides are out for the C63s because I placed my order on 4/20 ;).
    2015 S4 | Sepang Blue | AWE GIAC Stage II v.2 | ECS Luft-Technik Carbon Fiber Intake | DSG | Sport Diff |

  22. #22
    Veteran Member Four Rings LINDW4LL's Avatar
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    Just test drove S4, C63, and M3 ... impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by shoe3k View Post
    I noticed that you mentioned that the S4 is more practical and that speed isn't the most important part you are looking for. It is confusing because there are other cars in the segment that the S4 belongs in like the BMW (340) or the MB (C43). Honestly, I don't know what you would want in a response because to me it's almost like you don't understand the difference between these segments or you never really drove any of these cars.
    While they're not direct competitors, OP can afford both the C63 or M3, and is only shopping the S4 because Audi has no offering available at that tier. And the pros of the S4 obviously outweigh the added performance of the other two in OP's mind.





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  23. #23
    Veteran Member Four Rings sean1.8t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LINDW4LL View Post
    I'd guess since he prefers the S4 over the M3/C63, that the C43 and 340i would stand no chance.




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    Why not? It's obvious that OP prefers a more reasonable and smoother riding car than the balls to the wall c63/m3, to which the c43 & 340i are exactly that. They're MB and BMW's version of the S4. So they would directly "stand a chance".


    And at that price range, I'd be shopping for a CPO'd S6. I'm with the OP that I wouldn't want to daily the 63 or M.
    Current:
    2016 Mercedes-Benz C450 AMG: OE-Tuning stg2 tune w/ Weistec DPs - 450hp/530tq Winter mode (Blizzak WS80s/Thule Force cargo box)
    1988 Harley-Davidson Sportster 1200: Ported & Cam'd w/ Screamin' Eagle exhaust.

    Previous:
    2002 Audi A4 1.8TQM: Full GT28RS on meth w/everything else.
    2001.5 Audi A4 1.8TQMS: Tune and exhaust.
    1999 Subaru Legacy Outback wagon Manual: Bone stock.
    Nothing else worth mentioning.

  24. #24
    Veteran Member Four Rings LINDW4LL's Avatar
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    Just test drove S4, C63, and M3 ... impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by sean1.8t View Post
    Why not? It's obvious that OP prefers a more reasonable and smoother riding car than the balls to the wall c63/m3, to which the c43 & 340i are exactly that. They're MB and BMW's version of the S4. So they would directly "stand a chance".
    I'm not sure which review you read, but OP's complaints for both cars were centered strictly around their interiors...

    He says he loves the power of the AMG and made no references to either being too harsh etc.



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  25. #25
    Veteran Member Four Rings sean1.8t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LINDW4LL View Post
    I'm not sure which review you read, but OP's complaints for both cars were centered strictly around their interiors...

    He says he loves the power of the AMG and made no references to either being too harsh etc.



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    Yeah, you're right. I guess I never fully read the OP, just skimmed it as the whole idea behind it still baffles me (as "shoe3k" most eloquently typed out).

    But if that's the case, my point still remains for the most part. I mean, just like the Audi's as you move up from A to S to RS; the interiors are mostly the same. Just a little bit more CF or alcantra here or there. And I'm not sure what he's talking about on the C63's interior having a bunch of plastic. My car's interior, like said, is virtually the same and there are like 3 pieces of plastic in the entire interior. Oh well. All things considered in this thread, I'm pretty sure OP has a screw loose so I digress.
    Current:
    2016 Mercedes-Benz C450 AMG: OE-Tuning stg2 tune w/ Weistec DPs - 450hp/530tq Winter mode (Blizzak WS80s/Thule Force cargo box)
    1988 Harley-Davidson Sportster 1200: Ported & Cam'd w/ Screamin' Eagle exhaust.

    Previous:
    2002 Audi A4 1.8TQM: Full GT28RS on meth w/everything else.
    2001.5 Audi A4 1.8TQMS: Tune and exhaust.
    1999 Subaru Legacy Outback wagon Manual: Bone stock.
    Nothing else worth mentioning.

  26. #26
    Established Member Three Rings shoe3k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LINDW4LL View Post
    While they're not direct competitors, OP can afford both the C63 or M3, and is only shopping the S4 because Audi has no offering available at that tier. And the pros of the S4 obviously outweigh the added performance of the other two in OP's mind.





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    That's the thing though. Most of the enthusiasts picking out the C63, M3, Quadrifoglio, ATS-V, etc are testing out those cars because of what they offer, which is their driving experience. Sure, I understand that the OP has the budget for the more expensive cars but as soon as he mentioned:

    The BMW and MB are faster and $20k more expensive. But my gut reaction was are these really necessary? They feel like overkill for a DD, and the S4 is so much more practical and yet still fast, fun to drive, and luxurious.
    "

    I was baffled because it now sounds to me like he is trying to justify the S4 because of the price difference and not because of the differences between the segments. It sounds to me that the B9 S4 is crossing off a lot of boxes, especially the value, which is understandable because the car is a great package like the B8 S4s. Anyway, the OP should just go for what makes him feel good about a car and not just the price.

    PS - OP, you should really try the C43 AMG because it will surprise you, especially the exhaust note.
    2015 S4 | Sepang Blue | AWE GIAC Stage II v.2 | ECS Luft-Technik Carbon Fiber Intake | DSG | Sport Diff |

  27. #27
    Senior Member Four Rings dalmation53's Avatar
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    I hate mercedez, BMW is to stiff for dd and fake sound. AUDI IS AUDI LOL. Prestige, comfortable,fast, elegant and best of all turbo v6. AUDI WINS. FLAWLESS VICTORY..

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    Ivan

  28. #28
    Veteran Member Four Rings VVG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gm56 View Post
    The C63 and M3 are great cars. but unless you are going to track them often, I'll take the S4. It's more comfortable to every day drive by far and it actually has more power than you need.

    Geoff
    I am discovering this sort of thing more and more. A number of years back, more power was actually usable on the street in a daily driver. However, overall power levels have gotten to the point, that it is not only unusable, it becomes dangerous. And there are times when you have to be so light with your throttle inputs that some of the fun is gone. I am looking to possibly go smaller when I replace my S6 in the next year or two. The car is and feels big. I am leaning towards the 4/5 platform.

    Anyway, my S6 is tuned to 560hp and over 600lb-ft......and I can rarely ever use it. The car actually feels more predictable and smoother in stock mode. I won't deny that the mind-bending thrust is fun, but for a DD, it truly isn't necessary, and you almost get frustrated over the inability to use it.
    Currently: Audi S6 * Audi S3 * Porsche Cayman GTS

  29. #29
    Senior Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by VVG View Post
    I am discovering this sort of thing more and more. A number of years back, more power was actually usable on the street in a daily driver. However, overall power levels have gotten to the point, that it is not only unusable, it becomes dangerous. And there are times when you have to be so light with your throttle inputs that some of the fun is gone. I am looking to possibly go smaller when I replace my S6 in the next year or two. The car is and feels big. I am leaning towards the 4/5 platform.

    Anyway, my S6 is tuned to 560hp and over 600lb-ft......and I can rarely ever use it. The car actually feels more predictable and smoother in stock mode. I won't deny that the mind-bending thrust is fun, but for a DD, it truly isn't necessary, and you almost get frustrated over the inability to use it.
    You just need to learn how to drive it


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    German Clunker and a British Clunker

  30. #30
    Registered Member One Ring
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    VVG,

    That's exactly the way I feel.

    Geoff

  31. #31
    Established Member Two Rings dbuxton13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug97gxe View Post
    You just need to learn how to drive it


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    Says the guy with "a German Clunker and a British Clunker" lol. That's an oddly harsh thing to say to an experienced driver who OWNS a 560hp S6. Duck and cover, amigo.
    B9 S4

  32. #32
    Senior Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbuxton13 View Post
    Says the guy with "a German Clunker and a British Clunker" lol. That's an oddly harsh thing to say to an experienced driver who OWNS a 560hp S6. Duck and cover, amigo.
    What does what I currently drive have to do with anything


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    German Clunker and a British Clunker

  33. #33
    Established Member Two Rings dbuxton13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug97gxe View Post
    What does what I currently drive have to do with anything


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    Bold move, Cotton. Just keep digging that hole.
    B9 S4

  34. #34
    Senior Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbuxton13 View Post
    Bold move, Cotton. Just keep digging that hole.
    Thank you for your useless contribution to this conversation
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  35. #35
    Established Member Two Rings aj6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug97gxe View Post
    You just need to learn how to drive it
    His points were valid in respect to an everyday car. Your statement exposes your own ignorance.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by aj6 View Post
    His points were valid in respect to an everyday car. Your statement exposes your own ignorance.
    if you read my prior comments i daily drove a 600 whp 3200 lb car with no problems.. the very say car when i bought stock i was fish tailing on ever corner because it was my first RWD car.. so i'm not sure where i'm ignorant in this situation.. in actuality i have more experience and knowledge on the subject matter. If you guys would stop trying to cape for him and realize what my statement said you would understand. The point is and always been with a high hp car once you first get the power you won't know how to drive it and with enough seat time.. practice and experience you will notice the power is not an issue.. there are daily driven 1000+hp cars don't insult my intelligence calling me ignorant .. if you've never daily drive a car with either of these (his or mine) then don't come arguing with me
    German Clunker and a British Clunker

  37. #37
    Established Member Three Rings shoe3k's Avatar
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    Strange that the OP never responded to the thread.
    2015 S4 | Sepang Blue | AWE GIAC Stage II v.2 | ECS Luft-Technik Carbon Fiber Intake | DSG | Sport Diff |

  38. #38
    Veteran Member Four Rings LINDW4LL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug97gxe View Post
    if you read my prior comments i daily drove a 600 whp 3200 lb car with no problems.. the very say car when i bought stock i was fish tailing on ever corner because it was my first RWD car.. so i'm not sure where i'm ignorant in this situation.. in actuality i have more experience and knowledge on the subject matter. If you guys would stop trying to cape for him and realize what my statement said you would understand. The point is and always been with a high hp car once you first get the power you won't know how to drive it and with enough seat time.. practice and experience you will notice the power is not an issue.. there are daily driven 1000+hp cars don't insult my intelligence calling me ignorant .. if you've never daily drive a car with either of these (his or mine) then don't come arguing with me
    Could be wrong, but I interpreted from VVG's post that he was speaking to traffic conditions not allowing the power to be used. Pretty sure you can't "learn" how to make more room.
    -Hayden


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    Quote Originally Posted by LINDW4LL View Post
    Could be wrong, but I interpreted from VVG's post that he was speaking to traffic conditions not allowing the power to be used. Pretty sure you can't "learn" how to make more room.
    Traffic? Wow Hayden nice to know u read minds.. tell me what I'm thinking when I read your post



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    German Clunker and a British Clunker

  40. #40
    Veteran Member Four Rings LINDW4LL's Avatar
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    Just test drove S4, C63, and M3 ... impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by doug97gxe View Post
    Traffic? Wow Hayden nice to know u read minds.. tell me what I'm thinking when I read your post



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    What else would limit his ability to use the power? 550hp requires a good amount of room if you want to go WOT for more than a couple seconds.


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    -Hayden


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