Front Oxygen sensor: prognosis?

[Charles.waite]

I just swapped out my front oxygen sensor an wanted to know what people thought about its condition:



Old on the left, new on the right.

I've been struggling with poor fuel economy, and had ruled out everything else. I figured it had 70k+ on it, almost 10k of that was with a faulty thermostat so it saw a lot of rich running.

Currently the fuel trims are within 4%, CTS appears to be working to spec, cooling system is solid (new t-stat), no leaks, fresh oil change, new PCV, new Valve Cover gasket. From all that I could tell the car is running great and power delivery and responsiveness is great. I just pulled the plugs and they seem a tad old, but no misfires and the coils are solid.

Full disclosure, it's on a b7, but I like you guys better an i've gotten nowhere with any advice on the b7 side. Anyway the systems are basically all the same so it's pretty much comparable.

[Kwarner]

Looks nasty, just replaced mine recently and it was a "burnt" grey color. Any major differences after swapping it out?

[n7plus1]

of course the B6 guys are smarter

to me it doesnt look too bad. although, with things like this...looks and faulty can be 2 different things. You WILL get a buildup on it...its in the exhaust.

[walky_talky20]

It doesn't look like it was running lean. It looks pretty normal. Maybe a little rich.

From wikipedia (which as we all know, is gospel): "An overly rich mixture causes buildup of black powdery deposit on the probe. This may be caused by failure of the probe itself, or by a problem elsewhere in the fuel rationing system."

[Charles.waite]

It doesn't look like it was running lean. It looks pretty normal. Maybe a little rich.

From wikipedia (which as we all know, is gospel): "An overly rich mixture causes buildup of black powdery deposit on the probe. This may be caused by failure of the probe itself, or by a problem elsewhere in the fuel rationing system."

Yea I've had sooty tailpipes for a while and was running with a faulty T-stat for almost a year (it was running too cold all the time because it was opening too early, swapped it out in Feb or March) so I thought the poor mileage was from it running open loop a lot trying to get back up to temp. I was hoping that would solve the mileage issue, but apparently not.

I'm just thinking it was old and the extended rich conditions I put it through gummed it up and wore it out. We'll see I suppose. Got a roadtrip out to Montana over menorial day so I'd really like to get my MPG situation sorted by then.

Looks nasty, just replaced mine recently and it was a "burnt" grey color. Any major differences after swapping it out?

I haven't even driven the car since I replaced it, the GF has it today. I'll ask her if it drove better, but I don't expect her to have noticed anything useful The tank is basically empty so I've got a good baseline for any MPG improvements. I log everything on Fuelly so I'll hopefully have some data...

of course the B6 guys are smarter

to me it doesnt look too bad. although, with things like this...looks and faulty can be 2 different things. You WILL get a buildup on it...its in the exhaust.

Yea I've been reading up on them and it seems like its actually a bit hard to test them definitively. My thinking after reading a ton is that it was gunked up and was slow to heat and cool, thus was slow in adapting fuel mixture or something. Again, we'll see over the next week or so, I'm going to DD it to put some miles on it and see if I can get some good mileage number to compare with my old data.

[daihashi]

I haven't even driven the car since I replaced it, the GF has it today. I'll ask her if it drove better, but I don't expect her to have noticed anything useful The tank is basically empty so I've got a good baseline for any MPG improvements. I log everything on Fuelly so I'll hopefully have some data...

omg, I hear you on that. There was a time where I was having transmission issues with my Jeep and my g/f was using it as a beater. Few times she called and could not describe what was happening to save her life. Luckily I was pretty familiar with the car and had an idea of what happened each time, but man... the GF's seem to suck at describing car stuff. haha

[Valve_Cover]

looking at an O2 sensor will tell you virtually nothing about the sensor itself. Even if the car runs rich and the sensor is black with soot doesnt mean the O2 sensor is the cause. The only way to know if the sensor is good is to test it. Wide-band sensors are a bit tricky to test compared to traditional sensors, but they can still be tested fairly easily with the correct equipement.

Traditional sensors are tested via a scanner to check for voltage variations as well as the speed of the cross-counts. (rich to lean, and lean to rich). Wide-band sensors require to mesure the amount of current (in miliamps) the sensor requires to stay at lambda 1. This is done via the sensor's Ion pump and can be monitored with a DMM or a scope.

EDIT: If you aren't familiar with running a scan tool or a DMM I suggest bringing the car to a shop to check this type of equipement. Unless you have the change to spare and can just keep tossing parts at it.

[Charles.waite]

^^ Interesting, so you really have to have specialized equipment to test the sensor? Well that blows...

I'm guessing all the info I was reading before about cross-counts and stuff wasn't really applicable then.

Edit: Just read up on this link: Bosch Wideband and in large letters on the diagram, it states clearly "Does not toggle around 450mV". I read somewhere that you can probe the wires and watch the voltage across the sensor and it should "toggle" or "cross" 450mV and that the number of times it crossed that per second was some indicator of its health. Apparently not on our Wideband sensors though.

[Antekaudi]

Charles,

Could you describe your issue with thermostat ?

- Did you have any codes present ?
- What were the symptoms ?
- Were your fuel trims negative with bad thermostat ?

I am having high negative long term fuel trims and my car takes a while to heat up so i am thinking maybe thats whats causing it.

Thanks

[MikeWire]

Charles any stored codes?

[Charles.waite]

Charles,

Could you describe your issue with thermostat ?

- Did you have any codes present ?
- What were the symptoms ?
- Were your fuel trims negative with bad thermostat ?

I am having high negative long term fuel trims and my car takes a while to heat up so i am thinking maybe thats whats causing it.

Thanks

No codes present at all. This was on my b7 mind you but its very similar. My symptoms were:
-- Low heat output. It was noticeably less hot on HI than my B6.
-- Car was taking minimum of 10 minutes to warm up. It would get to 3/8s and just sit there for a few minutes sometimes too.
-- Under load, the coolant temp gauge would drop. Sometimes below 1/4 sometimes 3/8, but always under load.
-- On the highway the temp tended to drop, especially under load, like going across a mountain pass.
-- The symptoms got worse and worse, with the coolant temp drops happening more frequently and by greater amounts.

I replaced my T-Stat and all the issues immediately went away. I tested the T-Stat after I replaced it (stuck it in hot water and measured the temp at which the valve opened) and it turns out it was opening at 50*C rather than 80-90*C. So it was confirmed faulty.

The b7 only has one Coolant Temp Sensor (Gray 2-pin) and it looked new and appeared to be reporting temps correctly so I ruled it out as a culprit, which left only the Thermostat.

My thread is HERE if you want more info on it, but a lot of that thread is geared towards the B7. Still useful though.

[Charles.waite]

Charles any stored codes?

For the oxygen sensor? None at all. Which is part of why its a bit frustrating. Something is off in my car but its not off enough to trigger any warning/code thresholds in the ECU.

I'm really interested in my MPG over the next few tanks, hopefully it will go up. Unfortunately with the amount of driving I do, it might be a while. Takes me almost 3 weeks to go through a tank.

[Antekaudi]

Thanks for the response Charles.

What about the fuel trims with bad thermostat ?

[daihashi]

I also had a bad t-stat for about 8-9 months before I got around to it. My front O2 looked a little dirty but my fuel trims (long and short) always stay beneath -2/3% (just about never goes positive). I've thought about swapping mine out also, I think I could eek out another 2-3mpg and I feel that my idle fuel efficiency should be better... but that's mostly me obsessing over non issues I think. What was your average MPG, both city and highway, after fixing your tstat issue?

Btw, I'll be doing a write up in the next month or so on how to adjust driving style to squeeze the most MPG out of our cars. It will be pretty in depth and detailed, some will be Mods that can be done but most will just be detailed description on how to adjust driving styles and how to use various gauges (vacuum and AFR gauge if people have them) to gain more FE. I'll probably try 2 weeks in stock form, then 2 weeks for each mod I apply so that the FE gain is documented on a case by case basis. Hopefully that will help people as gas prices start to rocket. My goal is to try to consistently get 36mpg on the highway, or 30mpg combined; we'll see if I have any success.

Got my new TFSI coil packs in, can't wait to install them in a few weeks. Then I'll be seeing if there's any benefit to building a full belly pan and some other mods to decrease drag.

[Charles.waite]

Thanks for the response Charles.

What about the fuel trims with bad thermostat ?

Never checked them unfortunately, but my tailpipes kept getting all sooty, so I expect I was running rich.

I also had a bad t-stat for about 8-9 months before I got around to it. My front O2 looked a little dirty but my fuel trims (long and short) always stay beneath -2/3% (just about never goes positive). I've thought about swapping mine out also, I think I could eek out another 2-3mpg and I feel that my idle fuel efficiency should be better... but that's mostly me obsessing over non issues I think. What was your average MPG, both city and highway, after fixing your tstat issue?

Btw, I'll be doing a write up in the next month or so on how to adjust driving style to squeeze the most MPG out of our cars. It will be pretty in depth and detailed, some will be Mods that can be done but most will just be detailed description on how to adjust driving styles and how to use various gauges (vacuum and AFR gauge if people have them) to gain more FE. I'll probably try 2 weeks in stock form, then 2 weeks for each mod I apply so that the FE gain is documented on a case by case basis. Hopefully that will help people as gas prices start to rocket. My goal is to try to consistently get 36mpg on the highway, or 30mpg combined; we'll see if I have any success.

Got my new TFSI coil packs in, can't wait to install them in a few weeks. Then I'll be seeing if there's any benefit to building a full belly pan and some other mods to decrease drag.

I didn't see much of a gain, if anything since I fixed my thermostat actually. I wasn't very consistent about logging MPG until after I replaced it, I just used the trip odo and divided my the gallons at each fill up, I never wrote anything down. Right now its hovering in the 16mpg range 95% city, almost exclusively short trips (<4mi.). My B6 by comparison is around 18MPG over the same usage.

[daihashi]

Never checked them unfortunately, but my tailpipes kept getting all sooty, so I expect I was running rich.



I didn't see much of a gain, if anything since I fixed my thermostat actually. I wasn't very consistent about logging MPG until after I replaced it, I just used the trip odo and divided my the gallons at each fill up, I never wrote anything down. Right now its hovering in the 16mpg range 95% city, almost exclusively short trips (<4mi.). My B6 by comparison is around 18MPG over the same usage.

18mpg in your B6? Willing to bet your foot is heavier than you think it is, don't worry... I have the same issue and I don't drive crazy. Recently I've realized that I can lift my foot considerably off the pedal and maintain my speed but at the same time I drastically increase my vacuum. The key is to reduce engine load as much as possible while increasing vacuum. i.e. going 40mph in 3rd gear will put me at about 2800 rpm and vacuum will stay at about 18in/Hg.... but if I shift to 4th then I'm at about 2200rpm and and I can keep vacuum at about 16-17in/hg. The vacuum in 4th gear is less, but the engine load between 3rd and 4th is substantially less; so being in 4th has greater benefit.

There's more that I've noticed than that, and it's definitely a "feel" type thing that requires detailed attention at first, but now that I've been doing this for about a week or so I've noticed a big increase in mpg, but my acceleration and traveling speed has remained relatively the same. Acceleration off a stop is something else that really kills mpg, if you go too slow then you eat MPG... and if you go too fast you eat MPG. I find that about 40-60% throttle to gain about 60-70% of the speed that I want to travel at is ideal. I only use about 25% throttle or less to gain the remainder of my speed.

Driving as though you have no brakes also helps boost MPG considerably.

[Charles.waite]

18mpg in your B6? Willing to bet your foot is heavier than you think it is, don't worry... I have the same issue and I don't drive crazy. Recently I've realized that I can lift my foot considerably off the pedal and maintain my speed but at the same time I drastically increase my vacuum. The key is to reduce engine load as much as possible while increasing vacuum. i.e. going 40mph in 3rd gear will put me at about 2800 rpm and vacuum will stay at about 18in/Hg.... but if I shift to 4th then I'm at about 2200rpm and and I can keep vacuum at about 16-17in/hg. The vacuum in 4th gear is less, but the engine load between 3rd and 4th is substantially less; so being in 4th has greater benefit.

There's more that I've noticed than that, and it's definitely a "feel" type thing that requires detailed attention at first, but now that I've been doing this for about a week or so I've noticed a big increase in mpg, but my acceleration and traveling speed has remained relatively the same. Acceleration off a stop is something else that really kills mpg, if you go too slow then you eat MPG... and if you go too fast you eat MPG. I find that about 40-60% throttle to gain about 60-70% of the speed that I want to travel at is ideal. I only use about 25% throttle or less to gain the remainder of my speed.

Driving as though you have no brakes also helps boost MPG considerably.

I do that a lot actually, and it scares the bejesus out of my girlfriend!

I do have a bit of a lead foot, when I was commuting 45minutes to work, I got really good at driving conservatively and only used the gas when i needed to and coasted a lot, especially in traffic. Then I averaged around 21mpg in my b6 but there were a number of engine issues I've since fixed. My commute was 15 miles, of mostly stop and go traffic on the highway. For comparison I got roughly 15mpgs in my G37 6MT over the course of nearly a year of that same commute. I think a lot of the bad mileage is the short distances I now do but I feel it shouldn't be as low as it is. Again, I'm less concerned with my B6 at this point as I've fixed a number of engine issues with it in the past weeks, but my b7 is still being gluttonous and I drive it pretyt sedately compared to my b6. I am still in the honeymoon phase of being able to hear my turbo whoosh. I'm so juvenile...

[daihashi]

I do that a lot actually, and it scares the bejesus out of my girlfriend!

I do have a bit of a lead foot, when I was commuting 45minutes to work, I got really good at driving conservatively and only used the gas when i needed to and coasted a lot, especially in traffic. Then I averaged around 21mpg. My commute was 15 miles, of mostly stop and go traffic on the highway. For comparison I got roughly 15mpgs in my G37 6MT over the course of nearly a year of that same commute. I think a lot of the bad mileage is the short distances I now do but I feel it shouldn't be as low as it is.

Also if you're in a hilly area, maintaining throttle position instead of trying to maintain speed is best. You'll lose speed going up, but regain it and then some on the way back down. I find the best way to make sure that I'm maintaining my foot position is by watching my vacuum position. If it goes up when I'm going up a hill/incline then I know I'm subconciously pressing the gas pedal further than I should.

Last records in my B6 was 24mpg in the city and 32mpg on the highway. That was with using a lot of cruise control and grandma type driving; both of which are not the best way to try to squeeze the most FE out of our cars. If I accelerate the way I normally want to then I get about 17-18mpg in the city. Pretty sure with my new techniques I can probably take it to about 28mpg with some practice.

I take it that you have no vacuum leaks on your car? If not then you and I must really drive identically, our average MPG for the way we'd LIKE to drive seems to be the same. lol

[Charles.waite]

Very hill area. I live at the top of a hill, so I can coast down it but must always drive back up. I try to baby it up the hill so I don't get home and cook the turbo when I turn it off. I can barely maintain 35-40mph in 4th gear going up the hill while barely staying out of boost. I try to be conscious of having a light touch on the pedal, but I drive so little, I like to enjoy my car while I can!

[daihashi]

Very hill area. I live at the top of a hill, so I can coast down it but must always drive back up. I try to baby it up the hill so I don't get home and cook the turbo when I turn it off. I can barely maintain 35-40mph in 4th gear going up the hill while barely staying out of boost. I try to be conscious of having a light touch on the pedal, but I drive so little, I like to enjoy my car while I can!

Yep, I definitely feel you on that. The only difference between you and I is that I probably do more driving, and since I live in Houston it's mostly flat terrain (except for the overpasses on the freeway). Probably much easier for me to keep Fuel economy up compared to you. If you bog the motor in 4th going up hill then that's going to put a lot of load on the engine trying to maintain that speed and kill MPG. You might want to try to stay in 3rd, you'll be at a slightly higher RPM but it'll be easier to maintain that speed and less load on the motor since you're going up hill; and easier to have a large vacuum pull. Just be very careful with your foot; at 35-40mph in 3rd gear it doesn't take me much to go from vacuum to boost, it would probably be even more sensitive to that in hilly terrain.

You can also try pulsing the throttle a bit, meaning if you normally take the hill going 35mph... then at the first part of the hill go up to 45mph, reduce throttle back so you're not quite at the idle position but just a bit more. Your car will slow down for sure, but the additional vacuum pull will help increase MPG. Once you hit 35mph again then apply 60% throttle to quickly get back to 45mph and repeat. Just try to stay away from 80%-WOT when trying to speed back up or taking off from a line, air intake at that position seems to just kill fuel trims while 60% is almost as fast but much leaner.

I'm sure you know all this and I feel like an ass for even telling you. But talking/reviewing what I've been doing lately helps me organize the information in my head for when I do the Fuel Economy write up. Hope no offense is taken.

[Charles.waite]

No worries man. I am the same way.

[Charles.waite]

UPDATE: so far the new O2 sensor has been great. It appears to have cured a cold start stumble I was having as an added bonus I initially thought that was due to a faulty fuel filter, but it appears to be gone now. I'm still going to replace the fuel filter as its likely the original and with 75k on it it's past due anyway.

In addition, preliminary/innacurate results, based on the in-car DTE gauge are promising. Its indicating much higher numbers, though I know how useless those are in actually calculating MPGs so I'll wait until I fill up the tank before I make any sweeping declarations.

[daihashi]

Awesome.. can't wait to here the conclusion on this.

[Charles.waite]

Normally results would be very delayed as it takes me so long to go through tanks, but I'm driving to Montana and back for memorial day so I expect to go through a tank or two of pure highway. Should be a great calibration for the mileage. Granted I'll have the cruise control set to 85-90 a large portion of the way, but it will be a really good indicator for me as when I went there for thanksgiving it was pretty bad mileage (around 23-24 I think).

[MikeWire]

Missoula? Just wondering, I'm in Billings...Laurel to be exact.

[Charles.waite]

Missoula? Just wondering, I'm in Billings...Laurel to be exact.

Whitefish. My parents just moved out there and got a few acres, some animals and a tractor :-)

Oh and some guns...

[MikeWire]

Right on, great area. We have a family cabin right near Hwy 2 in Glacier and I have been in that general area...wish I could move there. Good place to have some guns!

[Charles.waite]

Right on, great area. We have a family cabin right near Hwy 2 in Glacier and I have been in that general area...wish I could move there. Good place to have some guns!

Yea its pretty incredible scenery. They live right on the edge of Glacier, so they've got tons of empty forest land behind them. Also the PO of their house was nice enough to leave some Deer decoys for target practice!

[Charles.waite]

So I spoke too soon. the O2 sensor didn't actually fix the cold start stumble. It seems sitting overnight isn't quite enough to trigger this problem. If the car sits for 24 hours though it stumbles on the first cold crank. After it fires up, the start starts right up.

Anyway, indications are still good for some improved fuel economy. yay.

[daihashi]

Are you still running a .04 gap on your spark plugs? Just curious, I got my new TSI/FSI coils installed and they feel pretty good... but I still feel like my car falls on it's face a little under WOT.

I'm also thinking of replacing my O2 just for the hell of it. Everything else on the car is new, the O2 is a year old but suffered for almost a year with vacuum leak mess, bad CTS and thermostat. I doubt I'll see any gains, more for my own peace of mind that it's new and fresh.

[Charles.waite]

Are you still running a .04 gap on your spark plugs? Just curious, I got my new TSI/FSI coils installed and they feel pretty good... but I still feel like my car falls on it's face a little under WOT.

I'm also thinking of replacing my O2 just for the hell of it. Everything else on the car is new, the O2 is a year old but suffered for almost a year with vacuum leak mess, bad CTS and thermostat. I doubt I'll see any gains, more for my own peace of mind that it's new and fresh.

Yea still running the .04" gap. I just put them in 3 weeks ago, sheesh!

Honestly if its just a year old its probably fine, but if it saw a lot of poor running conditions, its possible its fouled. I would pull it out and see what it looks like. For what its worth, my B7 seems to pull much harder (like pretty noticaebly) at the top end than it did before I replaced the sensor. I can't comment on my B6 as I haven't touched the sensor on it, but I would imagine its the same deal. They aren't cheap enough where I would say for sure replace it, but if it gives you that peace of mind go for it. Worst case, you buy one and the old one is fine, you can sell it. Top Tip: Call up JHM and if you're nice, they'll price match. I asked them to match FCPEuro's pricing at $85 and they did. Awesome guys, just give them a call! Jace (boostedAvant) told me a while back to call them up ask for Dru and tell them he sent you, haha. I feel fine about referring you to them for him via proxy.

[Charles.waite]

So a little update:

Daihashi, I know you wanted to know what my mileage was over the long weekend uring my 1000+ miles of highway driving. The results are in and the first tank was 26.5 mpg, the second was 25.5 mpg (that included a bit of city driving as well as just highway) and the third tank was 26.8mpg.

I know this seems a tad low for long distance highway cruising, but I was always going faster that 80, usually around 87-88 on cruise control and was on a number of small single lane roads where I needed to pass cars so a few extended WOT runs above 100mph were required (speed limit on the road was 70). Thus I was out of the sweet spot fuel economy wise which is in the 60-70mph range. Plus it was a bit windy so it tended to put a bit more load on the engine. I did toss my new BKR6EIX-11 plugs in minutes before I left for the trip and the car drove beautifully, so eat that +.04" plug gap haters.

The results are nice to see, as I was really worried there was some issue with my car. I think my really low MPG is mostly a result of my typical driving scenario. I drive downhill, 3 miles to work and the engine doesn't even get fully up to temp on the gauge. Couple that with my almost exclusive city driving and I think the 16-17mpg average actually makes sense. Considering my 1.8t is similar in fuel economy under identical driving, I'm leaning towards this case being closed. Possibly the new O2 sensor helped, and it seems to have made the car a bit peppier, but I no longer think there is some sort of nefarious, underlying issue causing my fuel economy to be total shit. Its just a function of how and where I drive.

[daihashi]

nice.. thanks for the update. Coincidentally I think my front O2 crapped itself in the last 2 weeks and is triggering a rear O2 code. My mpg is down drastically. I'm also running BKR6EIX-11's... car runs so smooth at that gap and power is good, I'm confident I could increase the gap even further if I really wanted.

And yea, your environment is just not friendly to Fuel Efficiency, but 26.5mpg isn't too shabby all things considered!

[Charles.waite]

nice.. thanks for the update. Coincidentally I think my front O2 crapped itself in the last 2 weeks and is triggering a rear O2 code. My mpg is down drastically. I'm also running BKR6EIX-11's... car runs so smooth at that gap and power is good, I'm confident I could increase the gap even further if I really wanted.

And yea, your environment is just not friendly to Fuel Efficiency, but 26.5mpg isn't too shabby all things considered!

I've still got my old one wrapped in plastic if you want to try it out. I'm pretty sure it was still working mostly fine as I never got any O2 related codes. I could send it out for the cost of shipping, I don't need it sitting in my shed.

[daihashi]

I've still got my old one wrapped in plastic if you want to try it out. I'm pretty sure it was still working mostly fine as I never got any O2 related codes. I could send it out for the cost of shipping, I don't need it sitting in my shed.

Sure if you want. If it seems to resolve my issue then I can definitely toss you some dough on top of the shipping, seems only right to do that. If not then I can just ship it back to you (could still be good and my issue is something else). I'll shoot you a pm so we can coordinate. I've dropped from an average of about 28-30mpg combined, to about 23mpg (at best). No exhaust leaks and no codes that indicate a problem other than the rear O2, which is on a spacer and has never thrown a code before. I need to log lambda while I'm driving to see if my AFR while driving is bad... because I know my AFR at Idle is spot on according to VCDS.

Maybe I should do that before I have you go through the hassle of shipping it. I'll send you a pm probably sunday or monday morning with an update.

[Valve_Cover]

I do roughly 29.4 mpg highway and 20.5 mpg city currently with the b6, calculated over the last 5-6 tanks. But what I find really sad is that with my 98' glx vr6 jetta i could get 31.5mpg .... I dont get how our cars arent doing better mileage than this :-/

[imnuts]

I do roughly 29.4 mpg highway and 20.5 mpg city currently with the b6, calculated over the last 5-6 tanks. But what I find really sad is that with my 98' glx vr6 jetta i could get 31.5mpg .... I dont get how our cars arent doing better mileage than this :-/

It's all about the weight of the cars.

[Charles.waite]

Fwd vs awd too. But I'm surprised the vr6 is that efficient. Nice!

Had a 98 jetta glx in college (actually it was the GF's) and I LOVED that car. So bummed when it but the dust.

[daihashi]

I took a few logs of me just driving around, no 3rd gear pulls. My O2 looks like it's sleepy, at some points my lambda reads 1.991 but I think that's when I am in decel in gear or in neutral. Other times I have portions of the logs that show lamda at approximately 0.75 when requested is 0.93 or higher. My ignition timing looks kind of funky too (probably related to sleepy O2).

I had made a bunch of highlights and stuff so I can upload the logs for others to give me feedback on, but I lost the formatting when I saved it. I'll have to make my color fills and highlights again and then I'll upload them so you can tell me what you think.

[Charles.waite]

Just remember to save it as a excel file rather than a csv. Then you keep the formatting.