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Thread: Headers?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Four Rings FastEddie's Avatar
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    Headers?

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    I was looking around and i it seems like JHM are the only people that make headers. It this true? In the future i would love to get Intake, intake manifold, Headers, and exhause and chip/tune. Basically a bunch of nice bolt ons.

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    Senior Member Four Rings
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    Even if other companies made headers I would stick with JHM. Go with the JHM headers, you wont be dissapointed. They really require an engine pull though...you know that right?

    Do some reading on the intakes - they are pretty much proven worthless on our cars.

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    Veteran Member Four Rings Slow4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M|R View Post
    Even if other companies made headers I would stick with JHM. Go with the JHM headers, you wont be dissapointed. They really require an engine pull though...you know that right?

    Do some reading on the intakes - they are pretty much proven worthless on our cars.
    Intake spacers or cold air intake? I'm aware that the CAIs are worthless since the current air boxes do the same magical trick.
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    Senior Member Four Rings FastEddie's Avatar
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    LOL at slow4 magical trick. No i had no idea i needed a pull for headers. Honestly if/when i do my bolt-ons ill do them all at once. Thanks for the info on the intake though.

    BTW only being in the Audi community for a week and i already realize that JHM seems to be qaulity stuff. Im coming from F-bodys (camaros) and everyone and thier mother made headers and exhaust systems. thats why i asked. I found it a little odd that only one company seems to make headers.

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    Registered Member Four Rings EUROSWAGR's Avatar
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    do intake manifold, intake spacer, 034 MAF boot to stock air box with a K/N filter
    FX4 Ecoboosting until the perfect RS comes along..

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    Quote Originally Posted by FastEddie View Post
    LOL at slow4 magical trick. No i had no idea i needed a pull for headers. Honestly if/when i do my bolt-ons ill do them all at once. Thanks for the info on the intake though.
    Thats why I mentioned it. If you want the sound and performance of headers without pulling your engine, look into going with a full2.5" catless system. Thats as close as youre going to get.

    Slow4, I was referring to "cold" air intakes. They have shown no to very little increases in power, and possibly even decreases...how embarrassing is that lol.

    OP, stick with OEM, or a drop in KN filter if you really feel the need to mess with it. Intake spacers are a whole different story though, those are worth it.

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    Established Member Two Rings
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    [/QUOTE]
    Im coming from F-bodys (camaros) and everyone and thier mother made headers and exhaust systems. thats why i asked. I found it a little odd that only one company seems to make headers.[/QUOTE]

    This is a different animal altogether...forget the easy bolt ons and finding parts at Autozone days...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FastEddie View Post
    LOL at slow4 magical trick. No i had no idea i needed a pull for headers. Honestly if/when i do my bolt-ons ill do them all at once. Thanks for the info on the intake though.

    BTW only being in the Audi community for a week and i already realize that JHM seems to be qaulity stuff. Im coming from F-bodys (camaros) and everyone and thier mother made headers and exhaust systems. thats why i asked. I found it a little odd that only one company seems to make headers.
    OP, not a prob. Its a learning experience.

    You will soon realize how kind Audi engineers were to us in their choice of placement for bolts, sensors, and screws.

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    Veteran Member Four Rings Slow4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M|R View Post
    Slow4, I was referring to "cold" air intakes. They have shown no to very little increases in power, and possibly even decreases...how embarrassing is that lol.

    OP, stick with OEM, or a drop in KN filter if you really feel the need to mess with it. Intake spacers are a whole different story though, those are worth it.
    Oh I am in total agreement with CAI, I remember reading that they make NO significant gains HP wise. I believe there has been a study (unofficial) that proves this and if anything, they slightly increase throttle response.

    My DarinINTAKE mod for the B5 S4 increased my throttle slightly, at least that's what I observed/felt.

    Are the drop-in K/N filters lightly oiled? I bought one and read/heard it causes issues with the B5 hitachi and bosch MAFs so I removed it. I'm not sure if that's the same on the B6/B7.
    Last edited by Slow4; 04-04-2012 at 05:54 PM.
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    Im coming from F-bodys (camaros) and everyone and thier mother made headers and exhaust systems. thats why i asked. I found it a little odd that only one company seems to make headers.[/QUOTE]

    This is a different animal altogether...forget the easy bolt ons and finding parts at Autozone days...[/QUOTE]

    Ya if the 4.2l was in as many cars as the LT or LS series engine we would be set. You can grab a set of long tubes for less than freakin $200!!

    You my friend have moved on to a much different beast, but my F-body friends envy the sound of a high revving 40V V8!
    FX4 Ecoboosting until the perfect RS comes along..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow4 View Post
    Are the drop-in K/N filters lightly oiled? I bought one and read/heard it causes issues with the B5 hitachi and bosch MAFs so I removed it. I'm not sure if that's the same on the B6/B7.
    I believe they come lightly oiled when they are new. Some say that the oil ruins the MAF in our cars but I would imagine you would have to drench the filter in oil for that to happen. I just stuck with an OEM Mahle filter, I believe it is.

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    Veteran Member Four Rings Slow4's Avatar
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    To answer OPs question, there are other companies out there that do manufacture/fabricate headers for our 4.2s but as of current, I think JHM has been the one to put one use.

    Check APR, AWE, Vast or SummitTuning to see if they carry them. I believe AWE might stock some.
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    Quote Originally Posted by M|R View Post
    I believe they come lightly oiled when they are new. Some say that the oil ruins the MAF in our cars but I would imagine you would have to drench the filter in oil for that to happen. I just stuck with an OEM Mahle filter, I believe it is.
    They do some pre oiled, and when you clean and oil it, lightly coat the filter. Also, make sure you give the oil a little time to dry and soak in....and the oil goes on the outside of the filter, not the inside or both sides
    FX4 Ecoboosting until the perfect RS comes along..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow4 View Post
    To answer OPs question, there are other companies out there that do manufacture/fabricate headers for our 4.2s but as of current, I think JHM has been the one to put one use.

    Check APR, AWE, Vast or SummitTuning to see if they carry them. I believe AWE might stock some.
    JHM makes the only headers, and don't quote me on this, but Vast may have been the company that they had reproducing them......and yes anyone can fabricate headers, but the R&D that JHM put into them is way more than any other company every will. Have you ever looked in your engine bay? Imagine the amount of work that went into fab work on long tubes for our cars with the amount of space, then take into account all the other design parameters for making efficient headers.

    I am hoping to go faster than 12.7 all motor without headers.
    Last edited by EUROSWAGR; 04-04-2012 at 08:29 PM.
    FX4 Ecoboosting until the perfect RS comes along..

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    Veteran Member Four Rings beemercer's Avatar
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    even if someone else ends up making headers, the JHM ones would be the ARH equivalent and will make more power/torque
    You represent the idiocy of today.

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    Senior Member Four Rings FastEddie's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the input. what exactly is an intake spacer and why so much of a significant mod?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FastEddie View Post
    Thanks for all the input. what exactly is an intake spacer and why so much of a significant mod?
    From what I read, it helps the engine keep cool while adding torque to the low-to-medium RPM range.

    http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...e-power-(NEW!)
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    Senior Member Three Rings S4_Artillery's Avatar
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    The JHM headers are not JHM, they are Fast Intentions. JHM developed them and sells them. My question is: there have been a lot of these made so why are they still welding them? Why not mandrel bend? The cost should go down significantly because a welding artist will not have to spend hours creating one set. And they would flow better due to smooth insides not a bunch of seams. I have seen some crazy bends with a mandrel machine so I know it can easily be reproduced.

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    Veteran Member Four Rings beemercer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S4_Artillery View Post
    The JHM headers are not JHM, they are Fast Intentions. JHM developed them and sells them. My question is: there have been a lot of these made so why are they still welding them? Why not mandrel bend? The cost should go down significantly because a welding artist will not have to spend hours creating one set. And they would flow better due to smooth insides not a bunch of seams. I have seen some crazy bends with a mandrel machine so I know it can easily be reproduced.
    the JHM headers actually used to be built in michigan but that may be changing. I believe the prebent sections are in part used because some of the compound bends are too complex for a mandrel bending machine
    You represent the idiocy of today.

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    Veteran Member Four Rings vdubjetta02's Avatar
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    Nice basic bolt on mods :

    - intake manifold
    - Aftermarket drop in filter
    - 2.5" downpipes
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    2013 Golf R: APR stage 2+

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    Senior Member Four Rings FastEddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S4_Artillery View Post
    The JHM headers are not JHM, they are Fast Intentions. JHM developed them and sells them. My question is: there have been a lot of these made so why are they still welding them? Why not mandrel bend? The cost should go down significantly because a welding artist will not have to spend hours creating one set. And they would flow better due to smooth insides not a bunch of seams. I have seen some crazy bends with a mandrel machine so I know it can easily be reproduced.
    I agree thats why i was surprised only one company makes them and the price is steep. However going to a business school you know that if you in a market by yourself you can set a price for people to pay. If they got some competition you can bet your ass the price would drop to probably somewhere around 2,000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FastEddie View Post
    I agree thats why i was surprised only one company makes them and the price is steep. However going to a business school you know that if you in a market by yourself you can set a price for people to pay. If they got some competition you can bet your ass the price would drop to probably somewhere around 2,000.
    They actually don't make as much of a profit as you think. The thick laser cut flanges + the high quality steel are all expensive. IIRC each set uses over a dozen jigs to create and many many hours of welding.
    A few mods here and there

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    Quote Originally Posted by noznab View Post
    They actually don't make as much of a profit as you think. The thick laser cut flanges + the high quality steel are all expensive. IIRC each set uses over a dozen jigs to create and many many hours of welding.
    Everyone thinks R&D is free too, you couldn't even get a custom set made for that, unless you are an amazing fabricator yourself. Even if you were it would be a lot of man hours!

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    Quote Originally Posted by noznab View Post
    They actually don't make as much of a profit as you think. The thick laser cut flanges + the high quality steel are all expensive. IIRC each set uses over a dozen jigs to create and many many hours of welding.
    This is exactly what I am talking about. Mandrel bend these things! All those jig set-ups plus the talented welder = fucking expensive.

    The material is not that expensive. Like someone stated earlier, the F-body cars have a lot of header options and the best header makers use the same material, thick flanges, and quality collectors for 1/4 of the JHM/FI price.

    example: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/KOK-6022/?rtype=10 for less than $800 you get top quality and look at those bends!

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    Veteran Member Four Rings beemercer's Avatar
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    1-5/8" 16G 304 (like those headers) is $13.22/ft
    1-1/2" 16G 321 (like the JHM headers) is normally $29.95/ft

    prices from burns stainless llc

    the material cost of building the headers in all 321 is significantly higher than 304. The JHM headers also include a new hardware kit and intermediate pipes.
    You represent the idiocy of today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EUROSWAGR View Post
    Everyone thinks R&D is free too, you couldn't even get a custom set made for that, unless you are an amazing fabricator yourself. Even if you were it would be a lot of man hours!
    Yup. When I spoke to the person who designed the headers he told me he had the motor in and out well over 100 times just testing fitment! 99% of people don't realize that there's way more that goes into designing proper headers than just runner length. If any other company starts producing headers I'd be completely skeptical if they had even a fraction of the R&D that JHM's headers have behind them.
    A few mods here and there

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    Quote Originally Posted by noznab View Post
    Yup. When I spoke to the person who designed the headers he told me he had the motor in and out well over 100 times just testing fitment! 99% of people don't realize that there's way more that goes into designing proper headers than just runner length. If any other company starts producing headers I'd be completely skeptical if they had even a fraction of the R&D that JHM's headers have behind them.
    This.

    JHM has the header game in the bag. Pretty much the only headers for our cars that are tried and true with no issues. Id be wary at the least if another company came out with them.

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    Senior Member Three Rings S4_Artillery's Avatar
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    Wasn't there a post about some custom Kooks S4 headers? I'll check real quick.

    edit: just checked. not Kooks headers, it was a custom catback from Kooks for an RS4

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    Senior Member Four Rings FastEddie's Avatar
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    i understand R&D. I father has a custom built WS-6 Firebird and made alot of his own stuff. He made a sweet ram air intake that cost him almost 1500 bucks to make. Now he could reproduce it for like 200 to 250 and sell for probably 350-399. Eventually he would make profit. All i was getting at is once you create that one that works, reproducing is easier. As S4 artillery said, use mandrel bends and try to mass reproduce for less cost. Anyways i do appreciate all the info and good talks going on in here!

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    ^When you see them in person you'll understand. As beem said, the bends are very complex, and the area is extremely tight. There's a reason years went by without anyone even trying, and only one company has even produced a set. At the end of the day, JMH didn't just make 1 set and say that works best. The multitude of factors and combinations they considered means it's the only one I would consider for headers, and frankly, the only reason they built them (imo) is to fulfill their entire picture and to meet their big power needs down the road.
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    Registered Member Four Rings BenSti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbgt72 View Post
    ^When you see them in person you'll understand. As beem said, the bends are very complex, and the area is extremely tight. There's a reason years went by without anyone even trying, and only one company has even produced a set. At the end of the day, JMH didn't just make 1 set and say that works best. The multitude of factors and combinations they considered means it's the only one I would consider for headers, and frankly, the only reason they built them (imo) is to fulfill their entire picture and to meet their big power needs down the road.
    You have a point, but you should realize, the technology of modern CNC benders is impressive. It can do any free-form shape, not just simple mandrel bends. It is also, as far as this is concerned, perfectly repeatable and requires no special setup. Granted a machine like that is very very expensive, however the point is it could be done if they wanted to. I am guessing they are happy where they are currently with the manufacturing and see no reason to change.

    Just a quick search turned up this bending the proper size tubing for the exhaust:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot0Cxmk2aa4

    Is it economical? Who knows, but it is pretty damn cool and looks like it would make short work of the bends on the headers.
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    Senior Member Three Rings S4_Artillery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beemercer View Post
    1-5/8" 16G 304 (like those headers) is $13.22/ft
    1-1/2" 16G 321 (like the JHM headers) is normally $29.95/ft
    I didn't realize the material is 321 SS. But do they have to use 321? 304 is more than adequate for the application.

    Quote Originally Posted by BenSti View Post
    You have a point, but you should realize, the technology of modern CNC benders is impressive. It can do any free-form shape, not just simple mandrel bends. It is also, as far as this is concerned, perfectly repeatable and requires no special setup. Granted a machine like that is very very expensive, however the point is it could be done if they wanted to. I am guessing they are happy where they are currently with the manufacturing and see no reason to change
    Exactly!

    Honestly, all it would take is some dishonest character to get their hands on a set of headers and model it to be reproduced on a CNC mandrel machine, use 304 steel, and sell the completed copy for half price. Or JHM could do the same and everybody wins. The sound of header equipped Audis will dominate the streets.

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    Registered Member Four Rings BenSti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S4_Artillery View Post
    Exactly!

    Honestly, all it would take is some dishonest character to get their hands on a set of headers and model it to be reproduced on a CNC mandrel machine, use 304 steel, and sell the completed copy for half price. Or JHM could do the same and everybody wins. The sound of header equipped Audis will dominate the streets.
    I would be shocked if those XS Power headers are anything different.
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    Registered Member Four Rings BenSti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S4_Artillery View Post
    I didn't realize the material is 321 SS. But do they have to use 321? 304 is more than adequate for the application.
    I am kind of curious why they chose such an expensive material. I guess do it once and do it right, but I think 321 is a little excessive for NA engine headers. I know it is used on turbo applications due to high EGT. 321SS is optimized for operation between 800-1500F, I don't think the exhaust gas temps from an S4 get anywhere near that temp, I could be wrong though.
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    Veteran Member Four Rings beemercer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenSti View Post
    I would be shocked if those XS Power headers are anything different.
    lol, I wouldnt bet against that..
    You represent the idiocy of today.

  36. #36
    Veteran Member Four Rings beemercer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenSti View Post
    I am kind of curious why they chose such an expensive material. I guess do it once and do it right, but I think 321 is a little excessive for NA engine headers. I know it is used on turbo applications due to high EGT. 321SS is optimized for operation between 800-1500F, I don't think the exhaust gas temps from an S4 get anywhere near that temp, I could be wrong though.
    I think there was concern over cracking at the welds given the length/weight of the headers. So I gather they decided to use 321 to mitigate issues with precipitation at the welds.
    You represent the idiocy of today.

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    Veteran Member Four Rings BCsniper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenSti View Post

    Just a quick search turned up this bending the proper size tubing for the exhaust:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot0Cxmk2aa4
    I've seen this video before, very cool to watch however I see one problem when thinking about it for our header application: "Nissin 3D bender that can bend up to 1-1/4" O.D." Those would be some tiny headers. I'm sure there are probably other machines out there that can do a diameter that would work but I would imagine getting a set done on those would cost the same or more than the JHM headers unless you were ordering a ton all at once.

    I'd imagine the problem with having them mandrel bent is much like Beem and mbgt72 have said, the area is might me too tight or complex to be done from a mandrel bender. Or maybe they were worried also worried about strength. The first thing I read when looking up mandrel bending was "the bend may appear stronger the outer wall of the tube is actually stretched thinner by the mandrel bending process". I doubt it would really do much to change the strength of the pipes, but with all of those things together, having them welded probably was just the best/most reasonable way to go for this application


  38. #38
    Established Member Two Rings j2ther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M|R View Post
    OP, not a prob. Its a learning experience.

    You will soon realize how kind Audi engineers were to us in their choice of placement for bolts, sensors, and screws.
    Exactly, I think its payback from the war.

    As others have said, go for catless dp and full 2.5" exhaust system. Will save you a bunch of cash and you'll still pick up some nice gains and the sound is great. I definitely recommend Fast Intentions. Danny at FI is a great guy to do business with.

  39. #39
    Senior Member Four Rings Axel-'s Avatar
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    From a business perspective, even if mandrel bending them might be cheaper IF (as mentioned above) they were mass produced and therefore lowered the unit price, installing them requires an engine pull. Even if they were 1/3 of the price or even 1/2 price from what they are today, how many would actually buy them and install them. I doubt they would be able to sell a huge inventory (if mass produced) to make a profit within a reasonable amount of time. That would mean having them sit in inventory for a long period of time which in itself has a large associated cost (tied up capital, storage, etc.)

    I'm going to assume they've done the math from a business model stand-point and felt it just wasn't realistic/profitable/justified.
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  40. #40
    Veteran Member Four Rings beemercer's Avatar
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    ^thats a good point too, the market is tiny and building the cad program to bend the pipes would make their r&d dollars even higher. plus the cost of contracting out the bending, it may make very little sense to take that next step forward.

    JHM's old fabricator for the headers was suprisingly efficient and fast, he and I worked side by side on my car for an extended weekend and I was always impressed by his perfectionism and speed at the time.
    You represent the idiocy of today.

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