Carbon Clean = Shit SO FAST [RESULTS]

[ericpaulyoung]

^^Can those go in the solvent tank?

Yes they can. These were off of an RS4.

These little guys are the now famous intake tumblers that are part of the intake tumbler system being discussed in another thread http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...tting-replaced

They sure do look like they help mixing the air! (being sarcastic). I say down with this old faulty design!! Power to the people.
- Eric

[stevegasm]

Nice. I would figure that the carbon isn't the worst thing for an engine. So long as its a bit softened up.

Pretty much. The only thing I worry about is chunks of carbon clogging up the cats and/or O2 sensors. No issues yet though.

[stevegasm]

Worst case of carbon build up I have seen on an Audi.

Looks like someone isn't driving their RS4 hard enough..

[DRAKLORE]

Those are not the manifold flappers attacthed to the manifold runner motor :-/

Those just sit in the pocket of the intake port not really sure what their purpose is....
See the little slits in each port... That's where those things sit.



See the flappers inside the manifold... That's what the manifold runner moves



Let's not go all crazy posting stuff without 100% understanding the components

[ericpaulyoung]

Those are not the manifold flappers attacthed to the manifold runner motor :-/


Let's not go all crazy posting stuff without 100% understanding the components

wow, Shane your first statement indicates that you don't understand the intake flapper system and all its components, then you say in your last statement that we shouldn't post stuff unless we understand all the components. Have to call you out on this one. They are both parts of the flapper system. The intake flaps connected to the electric motor on the side of your intake manifold align with the little drop in flappers that drop into your head. When they align, the flow is directed only to half the intake track (hence the swirling idea), when they are not aligned, the flow can travel on both sides of the intake valves. That is why you see the majority of the carbon buildup on the top half of the drop in flappers, i.e., the low rpm flow only flows over the top of the flapper drop in pieces.

- Eric

EDIT - At least this is my interpretation of the system; I am not an Audi authorized technician, so I could be WAYY the hell off. Just wanted to make that clear.

[jimrobbington]

What is the purpose of those? All they do is get in the way when you are trying to scope your valves.

JR

[DRAKLORE]

No Eric your wrong I'm sorry. I may not know the system 100% but those are intake port vanes and not runner flappers... The flappers "flap" open hence the name

[ericpaulyoung]

What is the purpose of those? All they do is get in the way when you are trying to scope your valves.

JR

I actually like the drop in vanes, as these (if designed correctly) are a well known geometry for decreasing flow losses. Just take a look at HVAC system designs, and you will see things like this. I just take issue with the overall system design with the upstream motor and Fap fap fap system.
- Eric

[ericpaulyoung]

No Eric your wrong I'm sorry. I may not know the system 100% but those are intake port vanes and not runner flappers... The flappers "flap" open hence the name

They work together, and it is their relative position that makes the flapper system work. Next time you take off you manifold check how they line up perfectly when the motor is in its first position.
- Eric

EDIT - but you are right, I was calling the wrong thing the fapper. It is the upstream fapper doing the work, and the vanes that get fapped upon.

[Charles.waite]

The Audi engineers must have spent many long, hard hours polishing this fapping system you speak of...

[DRAKLORE]

Fap Fap Fap

[ericpaulyoung]

I think there are likely hundreds of German engineers laughing there asses off at us silly Americans worried about the flapper system, when it offers operability over basically zero part of the power curve, and interrupts the flow during all the other parts of the power band. Check out the chart of when it is supposed to help. Then think about no matter how much the system tries to stay out of the way, it is still a reduction over the rest of that chart.


I still don't like them. It is like someone selling me something that will help 0.01% of the time with minimal impact the rest of the 99.99% of the time. I would just not use the damn thing 100% of the time.
- Eric

[stevegasm]

[DRAKLORE]

I can only imagine what you'd be saying if the intake
Manifold was made .2centimeters smaller Inside diameter...

But perhaps Eric, just perhaps the manifold was made slightly larger to compensate for this reduction in flow you claim exists..

[Charles.waite]

I think there are likely hundreds of German engineers laughing there asses off at us silly Americans worried about the flapper system, when it offers operability over basically zero part of the power curve, and interrupts the flow during all the other parts of the power band. Check out the chart of when it is supposed to help. Then think about no matter how much the system tries to stay out of the way, it is still a reduction over the rest of that chart.


I still don't like them. It is like someone selling me something that will help 0.01% of the time with minimal impact the rest of the 99.99% of the time. I would just not use the damn thing 100% of the time.
- Eric

I can only imagine what you'd be saying if the intake
Manifold was made .2centimeters smaller Inside diameter...

But perhaps Eric, just perhaps the manifold was made slightly larger to compensate for this reduction in flow you claim exists..

Flow and velocity are different things. Audi knows this and its why they designed a smaller port inlet for the b6 platform 1.8t engine. It helps smooth out tiny K03 powerband. However when you up the flow rates from, say, a GTRS, it becomes a restriction, hence why a lot of people port them or get larger AEB manifolds when they go BT.

not saying I'm an expert, but I would think Audi knows what they're doing as they've got similar designs in MANY engines they make.

However they have yet to demonstrate that they can build one that doesn't BREAK....

[jimrobbington]

I think there are likely hundreds of German engineers laughing there asses off at us silly Americans worried about the flapper system, when it offers operability over basically zero part of the power curve, and interrupts the flow during all the other parts of the power band. Check out the chart of when it is supposed to help. Then think about no matter how much the system tries to stay out of the way, it is still a reduction over the rest of that chart.


I still don't like them. It is like someone selling me something that will help 0.01% of the time with minimal impact the rest of the 99.99% of the time. I would just not use the damn thing 100% of the time.
- Eric

That is a great diagram for threw prv and n80

JR

[ericpaulyoung]

Flow and velocity are different things. Audi knows this and its why they designed a smaller port inlet for the b6 platform 1.8t engine. It helps smooth out tiny K03 powerband. However when you up the flow rates from, say, a GTRS, it becomes a restriction, hence why a lot of people port them or get larger AEB manifolds when they go BT.

not saying I'm an expert, but I would think Audi knows what they're doing as they've got similar designs in MANY engines they make.

However they have yet to demonstrate that they can build one that doesn't BREAK....

You make a great point! It may be great for a stock engine, as it is optimized and designed for a smooth stock engine flow. But who the hell cares about the performance of a mundane stock engine? As soon as you start changing the characteristics of the flows through your engine, all the stuff the Audi spent precious hours making a smooth running stock engine are now just a bunch of restrictions and performance killers.
- Eric

[ericpaulyoung]

That is a great diagram for threw prv and n80

JR

Thanks, I drew it myself! ;-)
- Eric

[wootwoot]

I have before dynos already, which is literally 1 day previous to the carbon cleaning. (reason why I even decided to do it in the first time)
Will be going in for another dyno this Friday to see the difference, and then I'll post the dynos

We all want to see dynos

[jimrobbington]

We all want to see dynos

Then when you actually show a dyno, everybody will just say that different dynos, different temps, blah blah blah didn't prove anything. Lol. Assholes.

JR

[DRAKLORE]

^^^ made me lol

what would we do without controversy?

[jimrobbington]

^^^ made me lol

what would we do without controversy?

It's true though. Everybody begs for dyno numbers, then when you actually show them, 100 excuses immediately why there's no way there was that much of an improvement.

People are full of "reasons" why my stage 2 dyno is better than their 2+ dyno. Nothing pleases everybody. Especially when it shows their car is slower.

JR

[ericpaulyoung]

It's true though. Everybody begs for dyno numbers, then when you actually show them, 100 excuses immediately why there's no way there was that much of an improvement.

People are full of "reasons" why my stage 2 dyno is better than their 2+ dyno. Nothing pleases everybody. Especially when it shows their car is slower.

JR

Yup, same thing happened here with injector flow rates. Everybody was begging for actual number against a baseline to allow objective comparisons between the S3, RS4, and stock injectors. Then when we start down the path getting this info, people start complaining that the testing is wrong, it doesn't matter, and we shouldn't be wasting our time.
- Eric

[DRAKLORE]

I'm still
Curious, I know there are always debates for every subject. I should
Know I start most if them lol but on a serious note. If the results are similar to johns results percentage wise it's
Prob good info, what most of us are looking for though is how
Many CCs the injectors are

[GA42.0T]

It's true though. Everybody begs for dyno numbers, then when you actually show them, 100 excuses immediately why there's no way there was that much of an improvement.

People are full of "reasons" why my stage 2 dyno is better than their 2+ dyno. Nothing pleases everybody. Especially when it shows their car is slower.

JR

Another reason to rock Stage Zero. You know you shit's slow and can't even cry at all about it.

OEM POWAHHHH!

[DRAKLORE]

Theres nothing wrong
With proving out your hardware before Upgrading software! From
Your photos the at is clean :-) can't wait to see
In person!

[GA42.0T]

Theres nothing wrong
With proving out your hardware before Upgrading software! From
Your photos the at is clean :-) can't wait to see
In person!

Thanks Shane. No doubt, me too! Saw you mentioned something about the rep from Jim Ellis getting a group togethe to drive you. PM me when you're heading up and maybe we can roll.

[Danne_gg]

was there any post dyno results btw?

[wootwoot]

It's true though. Everybody begs for dyno numbers, then when you actually show them, 100 excuses immediately why there's no way there was that much of an improvement.

People are full of "reasons" why my stage 2 dyno is better than their 2+ dyno. Nothing pleases everybody. Especially when it shows their car is slower.

JR

No reason to get butt hurt here. I think that the ops dyno would be important since he did one before the carbon cleaning and one after. This will show how much the carbon cleaning really can help performance. We are not comparing 2 different cars here so what is there to argue?

[DRAKLORE]

The barometric pressure of that day, the temperature, different gas, humidity, air quality, tune adjustment for conditions ect ect ect

If there's an arguement to be had it will probably be had lol

I dont think anyone can deny that the carbon gone is a better improvement for te motor than while it's there!

[airbornerifleman]

Where is the dyno, OP?
The only reason I paid so much attention to this thread is for the before and after dyno. All our cars suffer from carbon build up, this info would be a great motivator to get a carbon cleaning done, even for members that do not have any carbon related issues.

[M1k3]

wow, Shane your first statement indicates that you don't understand the intake flapper system and all its components, then you say in your last statement that we shouldn't post stuff unless we understand all the components. Have to call you out on this one. They are both parts of the flapper system. The intake flaps connected to the electric motor on the side of your intake manifold align with the little drop in flappers that drop into your head. When they align, the flow is directed only to half the intake track (hence the swirling idea), when they are not aligned, the flow can travel on both sides of the intake valves. That is why you see the majority of the carbon buildup on the top half of the drop in flappers, i.e., the low rpm flow only flows over the top of the flapper drop in pieces.

- Eric

EDIT - At least this is my interpretation of the system; I am not an Audi authorized technician, so I could be WAYY the hell off. Just wanted to make that clear.

You do realize what you just did right? ...

[DRAKLORE]

He just mad cause he wrong lol

I would rather not remove something that helps my already rough idle (RS4 injectors). It's a
Great idea, and personally I doubt (while in the completely open position) that a half a millimeter vane or flap is going to Hurt upper Rpm flow. If anything give the air more "directionality" and create a turbulence (which is what you want for atomization)
I see a lot of technical post coming from you lately Eric... Lulz
I'm just playin anyways

[ericpaulyoung]

No worries, I am having light bulbs!
Eric

[null]

So any dyno results yet?

My car cranks 3-4 times before it starts. I think my carbon been building up too. But in reality is it worth it ? I mean - its a hard hard job.. so much shit to remove and so much shit that can go wrong..and if it does it can go so wrong - that any buildup you had before will seem like a non-issue compared to things that happen from incorrectly installing it or breaking something in the process..

for bay area people - i have all the tools and a drive way to do it on. bring your car and I will watch you do it.. maybe attempt it myself later if all goes well

[dcchristopher]

OK, you guys have me dying to get this done. I'm thinking about rolling it into an extensive fuel system / air intake update that includes the HPFP, cam follower, injectors, miscellaneous intake parts, and of course the valve cleaning. I hate opening stuff up and not upgrading/updating while I'm anyway in there. So a $5 stripped banjo bolt (which cock-blocked my cam follower replacement) has slowly turned into a $1000 revamp but, hey, I'll sleep better knowing the other parts are in good order as well. The idea is, I can now only remove the fuel pump if I also remove the intake and cut the steel line attached to the banjo bolt.

I can't remember which version of the HPFP I have but it's from 2008 (previous owner, at 56K miles, experienced a sudden engine failure due to a "loose bolt" near the cam chain that required new HPFP, cam, and chain). I want to say it's the "H" version. It has the bleeder valve but uses the steel lines. My question is, can I replace the steel lines with rubber hoses while I'm at it? Basically, I'm trying to avoid going down the route (banjo bolt) that brought me to this very place.

Thank you all in advance!

[null]

So were the After dyno results ever posted? Perhaps no real measurable improvement from this ?

[airbornerifleman]

^X2

90% of threds here do not have any conclusion and it make them somewhat useless! People, FINISH what you start!

[schnell]

To the OP, where's the dyno????

[yayjohnny]

Sorry guys, but the after dyno results were complete garbo. Probably some boost leak or something. Not worth posting.
Even though I can't provide numbers, definitely should do it if you have higher miles because you will feel the difference whether it's in your head or not.
It's not a hard job to do once you do it.