(drumnjuny's) - GTX2867R Big Turbo Build

[drumnjuny]

okay... got my valve cover off. this is gonna be hard b/c i have like a million pictures so bear with me. have some concerns, but im sure the guys at RAI know best so i'm going to do whatever they tell me. once i check for the valves being bent we'll have a better idea. exhaust cam lobes? are pretty scratched up, from the ones i can see, and one has a good gash (the picture i took looks like nothing but it feels pretty rough to the touch)... every exhaust rocker was off either one or both sides... weird.

first, i'm gonna put up the pictures of what i found when i got in there.

then, the pictures of the rockers once i got em out.

the situation:










rockers:

[drumnjuny]

feel free to voice your ideas! i'm super curious... thanks as always for the input haha... i know this doesn't tell us much but i'm sure it tells us a little haha.
i'll probably have to go further into the car to see if the pistons are damaged and check if the valves are bent... timing belt when i touch it can move a little but it feels like it should. i can post a video of me wiggling it if that would help. but it wont budge from the gears (when i tried to slide the belt on/off the gears, no play at all)


maybe it was related to the bump i went over??

[DRAKLORE]

Wait those rockers... We're off? That's kind of fucked and gives me some
Ideas, but I'll
Keep my opinion to
Myself for now..

[drumnjuny]

yeah every single one on the exhaust side was popped off. and ray said definitely not related to any bump...

and i definitely never revved the engine over 7k (it kind of flies through the upper range but maybe 7.5 even, nowhere close to like 9k), definitely never missed a gear downshifting, definitely didn't

[DRAKLORE]

Oh ok only passenger side.
My best guess at this point, cam seized, chain snapped

[DRAKLORE]

I have never seen a variator issue on these motors so idk what the failure would look like. RAI can shed some
More light on that since they have seen one

[drumnjuny]

yeah idk what caused those to bounce off like that... every single rocker/roller was popped off the valve side and freely sitting in there, half of them still clipped into the other side half not

[DRAKLORE]

Yeah I'm not trying to stir the pot.

What are the specs on this head. AFAIK port, polish, and Supertech valves and springs. Were the cams plasti gauged when they were reinstalled, new cam chain? Any cam work done at all, I'm just saying that to me it looks like the cams failed, if RAI had the head off and apart, I highly doubt they would re assemble it with that type of gouging on the lobes. At least I hope not, so for having 1200 miles and that gouging to develop I'm guessing that the Cams either could not take the extra strain of the stiffer springs, or an assembly issue... Again I'm not at the car, all I know
Is what I see so don't jump on me like
I'm tryin to cause issues with RAI cause IM NOT. They are very reputable, and until we see the VCT or chain it's all just speculation

[drumnjuny]

how do i get to the chain? is there a DIY? i gotta know what's going on its driving me nuts

just waiting for someone from RAI to tell me the next step haha...

[DRAKLORE]

Brad, flexcj5 has a spare head iirc
He's also just dealt with a snapped chain, so
He would know what the damage looks
Like, and how to get to the chain

[viziers]

Oh man leave for a bit and all hell breaks loose..... Shit this sucks, sorry to hear man!



vizi

[okswerve16]

This confirms the keyway did not sheer that is good cause you wont need a new crank lol but take the rear cam cover off and you will see that either the sprocket on the adjuster is loose or the chain broke. The two cams are wayyyy out of alignment you can tell because the groves in the cams should be opposite each other so the T10252 tool can fit in. Look at the kit http://www.toolsource.com/camshaft-t...-p-133813.html

And the reason you arent getting any cam timing codes is because the cam position sensor is on the intake cam and if the chain is broke or sprocket on the adjuster is off/loose it is not gunna spin because the cams are not connected anymore....

[okswerve16]

and what kind of valvetrain did you have? Ferrea or supertech?

[drumnjuny]

supertech and the chain is definitely broken yes... but my suspicion is that the cam keyway sheared... i have my reasons but it fits logically with all the symptoms i had... but its all just speculation ha

i will have to go try to move the motor with the cam bolt and see if the intake cam moves. (pretty sure it won't but let's see)

[okswerve16]

hmmm did you install lifter shims ? http://www.vapmotorsports.com/183-fe...i-20t-fsi.html

[drumnjuny]

i don't believe so but maybe that's something to look into... RAI can comment on whether we did or not use lifter shims. regardless i was ~3k rpms so there's no way they just flew off like that ya know... but the way they are damaged it looks like its possible that they sustained some damage before... but i'd assume it happened when the pistons bumped the valves...

oh and i misspoke earlier, my suspicion is the chain might be fine (possibly, but either snapped or had a lot of stress so needs to be replaced regardless) and still connected but the cam keyway sheared into the gear because of the way the car died, almost as if it was on timing (driving fine), then off timing (RPMs dip 1k), then on timing (rpms go up a little, maybe 3-400), then off timing again; the pistons tap the valves knock off the exhaust rockers and the RPMs hit 0 and the motor completely dies... explains why it happened right at the same time as the bump, must've given it just enough stress to shear partially. then it catches then shears more then catches then shears fully... know what i mean?

now the exhaust cam spins freely, intake cam sensor doesn't go off b/c the chain and intake cam aren't moving so they're not off timing according to the ECU, and the rockers aren't in place so the exhaust valves don't move from half open and the car can't build compression and b/c of the lower compression pistons they don't come in full contact with the valves anymore (explains the lack of or very quiet noise when they impact and also why it doesn't make a noise when the starter motor spins the engine at 100rpms)

[drumnjuny]

basically i'm (the engine is) pretty boned. Ray has offered to rebuild the head if i mail it to him. so right now the plan is Seal66 and I are gonna take the head off, then pop off the cam chain/ rear timing cover just for shits n giggles to see if i'm right... in the mean time i will have a local shop or mechanic install the IE dowel kit (the head will be off anyway, and i'm not comfortable drilling in there) and then either pay a shop to reassemble the engine or do it myself depending on how hard it is to put the head back on... looking at at least a month downtime i feel like.

i also want to turn the cam bolt before we do anything to see if the intake cam is connected or not which i think we can see its pretty clearly not since the timing is completely off... i have a feeling i got very lucky in the way it sheared (in increments, so timing must have been off just enough but not opposite timing then opposite then on again), which caused minimal damage i hope (couldn't hear anything so hoping the pistons are reusable and barely tapped the exhaust valves knocking the rockers off).

of course this is all speculation until we open the engine further we won't know... but i think my logic makes sense

[CorneliusRox]

Oh man leave for a bit and all hell breaks loose..... Shit this sucks, sorry to hear man!



vizi

x2

I need to read and catch up. This is a bummer though

[DRAKLORE]

hmmm did you install lifter shims ? http://www.vapmotorsports.com/183-fe...i-20t-fsi.html

Good Point!

[CorneliusRox]

hmmm did you install lifter shims ? http://www.vapmotorsports.com/183-fe...i-20t-fsi.html

wait, so these just sit between where? are they secured by anything are are just held on by the valve gap?

[okswerve16]

wish I was closer would definitely help you out, but I think at this point it might be cheaper to just get another head and transfer the stuff that isnt damaged over. Just by looking at it now you definately need a new exhaust cam, new adjuster, 8 rocker arms, 8 lash adjusters, if any of those valve are bent you will possibly need to reguide and reseat for those valves, new chain and chain tensioner, possibly rear cam housing cover as well. Thats a lot of $$$ in parts, not including labor.

I would definitely take the rear cam cover off first before speculating anymore its very simple just take of the HPFP and vacuum line to the vacuum pump, the harness going to the n205 valve, there is a screw in the back thats a pain but it holds a bundle of wires and the head ground but after that its only the 6-7 bolts holding the cover on.

[okswerve16]

wait, so these just sit between where? are they secured by anything are are just held on by the valve gap?

if you remove the rocker arm and take out the lash adjuster you put the shim into the head and then place the adjuster over it, you can see it sorta here



According to ferrea......The original design intention was Mr. Ferrea's solution to the FSI customers having their rockers getting tossed off of the lifter sockets, let alone breaking the retaining clip on the underside. What we came up with was a shim of a specific thickness that you install under the OEM hydraulic lifter body. This effectively PRELOADS the OEM lifter nearly 100% so that it functions similar to a solid lifter, but still has the lash-adjusting capability that it was meant to have built in. Hydraulic lifters are known to have pump-down issues above the 7,000 RPM range, which causes excessive lash...which inherently causes you to lose X-amount of valve lift and duration values

It seems like this is what possibly happened....

[CorneliusRox]

if you remove the rocker arm and take out the lash adjuster you put the shim into the head and then place the adjuster over it, you can see it sorta here



According to ferrea......The original design intention was Mr. Ferrea's solution to the FSI customers having their rockers getting tossed off of the lifter sockets, let alone breaking the retaining clip on the underside. What we came up with was a shim of a specific thickness that you install under the OEM hydraulic lifter body. This effectively PRELOADS the OEM lifter nearly 100% so that it functions similar to a solid lifter, but still has the lash-adjusting capability that it was meant to have built in. Hydraulic lifters are known to have pump-down issues above the 7,000 RPM range, which causes excessive lash...which inherently causes you to lose X-amount of valve lift and duration values

It seems like this is what possibly happened....

This makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the very quick and detailed answer!

[drumnjuny]

thanks for that info, that explains a lot i too was wondering where those would fit...
i pulled one of those cylinders that the roller snaps onto out by accident. didn't see anything in the hole but i may have just assumed it was part of the block, as i wasn't particularly looking for that shim at the time...

not sure what i'm gonna do right now, Ray has offered some help but i'm gonna wait for him to say himself what's going to happen so i don't accidentally assume/report inaccurately... while the motor is in pieces i'm going to get the dowel pin kit installed i think, just so that i don't have to worry about that crankshaft shear forcing me to go for a round three on this build... sigh.

[drumnjuny]

just sucks to not have a car for a long time but hopefully this gets resolved in the next month b/c then i'm moving a couple miles away... gonna be tough to work on this car in a parking lot of a building i don't live in anymore... lmao. shit ass timing for all of this to happen right after i did the build but i guess that's my ignorance for ya, assuming that the car wouldn't eat shit and die as soon as i got it back lol

[okswerve16]

trust me I know how you feel, I drove my car for the first time in 3 months the other day after a ton of setbacks and its still not done!!!! The only thing I can suggest right now is take off the rear cam cover it will tell you more, and It will definately be cheaper to just get another head

[Sales@RAI]

Lifter shims are just not a good idea. They're a good way to wear out cams/rockers quickly.

[CorneliusRox]

Lifter shims are just not a good idea. They're a good way to wear out cams/rockers quickly.

Just because of added pressure against the cams constantly?

[Sales@RAI]

Just because of added pressure against the cams constantly?

Yes, there is a reason why lifters have give to them. And lifters get more stiff the higher you rev. So I just do not think that is a good idea, at all.

If they were going in a race engine that gets rebuilt periodically, I can see their use.

[drumnjuny]

seeing build pics on RAI's facebook is just super depressing now...

[okswerve16]

Yes, there is a reason why lifters have give to them. And lifters get more stiff the higher you rev. So I just do not think that is a good idea, at all.

If they were going in a race engine that gets rebuilt periodically, I can see their use.

Not trying to point fingers because this probably isnt the cause of his issues, just want to discuss about the shims but you are mistaken AFAIK and correct me if I am wrong, the shim merely preloads the lifter in order to maintain the proper lash at high rpms. It is known fact that the OEM fsi hydraulic lifters bleed and can bottom out at high pressures/high rpm, this puts a lot pressure on the clips in return breaking them causing rockers to get thrown.....and since these arent solid or adjustable lifters there is no servicing that needs to be done on them

JC@douglasvw explained this to me when I bought a set of these from him when he was working directly with ferrea to get the thrown rocker issue solved

[DRAKLORE]

Yeah, I've never heard of upgrading valves/springs and doing head work without installing the proper shims.

I like to picture it like a hammer being swing through the air gaining momentum until it hits... To me that is way more wear vs any frictional gain because of the added pressure. If we are going to be worried about that, why build a head, why use STIFFER springs?
And then there's the gap... Which depending on the set of valves or springs could be different along the rockers, add hydraulic lifters that will hit a wall when the oil pressure caps... Idk maybe I just don't know enough about this motor. I'm basing all my theories on my knowledge of domestic motors.

[drumnjuny]

i've asked Ray to look into the shims, as i understand what you guys are saying and i also understand what he and dan are saying. what they're saying is the added pressure requires the head to be rebuild periodically, and is more important for race than street applications where u don't want to rebuild the motor all the time. i just want to be sure that i don't have to rebuild this engine again (any time soon at least haha). for what its worth, none of the clips on the lifters (the cylinder the rocker connects to opposite the valve, i assume) were broken as far as i noticed they were all intact the rockers were just popped off.

here's an important update: i tried to move the camshaft bolt... nothing. put as much force as i humanly can (i'm pretty small but still) and the cam doesn't budge a minute but i definitely felt the bolt moving, every so slightly. maybe a degree or even just a few minutes but it definitely shifted and the cam didn't move at all. at first i thought it might have been in my head, but the fact that it didn't move under a reasonable amount of force in the first place only convinced me further that the cam has sheared. still doesn't change the plan of action here.... going to remove the head, ship the whole thing back to RAI and they're going to rebuild it. i'm still curious to get into the rear timing cover and inspect the cam chain but at this point it doesn't really matter. in the meantime i will inspect the pistons, which i suspect will not be too damaged because i didn't hear much (maybe missed it but again, doubtful...) when the engine died. still going to have the dowel pin kit for the crankshaft installed when the car is in pieces, and going to go ahead and swap to the .64 A/R turbine... this hopefully will make this car more reliable (aka last for more than a week at a time lmao fml)

my question is this. if the rear cam chain is probably bound, the front timing belt cam gear is sheared, then why does the motor spin freely? does the cam still turn with the starter motor and the timing belt spin? b/c i can't move it at all by hand. so then does the timing belt not spin...? in which case what is spinning, because that has to be damaged as well... no? something's gotta be spinning right, because i can hear it whirring and then when i get off the clutch in first the car bumps forward a little and the starter motor dies... so just wondering what other damage i need to be looking for / diagnosing / assessing

[drumnjuny]

this is truly surreal... the whole situation. how is it even possible that 1500 miles after spending this much money, i have fucking damage across the board to every-fucking-thing.

someone tell me what else could be/is probably damaged please, so i can keep pretending like i didn't just spend every dollar i have on this piece of shit, or that this car is actually going to run again any time soon or at any point at all!? for more than a week hopefully next time?? god fucking damnit i'm never doing anything but bolt ons from now on and with my luck i'll probably still fuck shit up. but at least i won't have razed 20gs to the ground. what a fucking waste, seriously. of time. of money. most importantly of my fucking life and energy. if only i could get ANYTHING back from this, seriously. before i thought wow will the thrill of driving this car even be worth it... well now i don't even have that. now i have no transportation anywhere. someone bail me out of this mess and just buy it from me

[drumnjuny]

not to mention my bluetooth doesn't work either anymore not that its even in the realm of problems i have with the car right now. but seriously it must not be getting power or something cuz no phones can detect it. so add that to the list; rewire my BMP so its not fucking with shit that worked fine before this build. like my motor.

/rant

[flyingfish2626]

Sorry for the bad news brother. Following thread closely for sure.

[CorneliusRox]

This is what happens when you push limits. There is always something left to fix.

When you get this all sorted out, just throw the rev limiter back on it, maybe switch to the .64 a/r so you can use more of the power, and be happy with the fastest A4 in CO.

[ericpaulyoung]

Not that it helps, but you are on the hairy edge of what's possible with our cars. Everyone is just amazed at the power levels that thing is putting down, and when this issue is fixed, you will be sitting in one bad mother of a ride.

Eric

[drumnjuny]

i know i know... i'm just being a little bitch. i'm trying to be a man about it but all the sacrifices i've made (many more than i've listed here) are just killing me any time i think about them. and the sacrifices i will make in the future just to be able to get to work and back... and how i could be so fucking stupid to think this was a good idea lmao. super cool to have a sick car for a week? and to have a sweet signature on AZ?? i could have bought a brand new car and still had my audi... wtf is wrong with me i now have nothing,

[drumnjuny]

that's a good point corey!

maybe if i don't have time (money) to do the .64 a/r right away (my theory was better to not drive the car for another couple weeks until i can swap the turbines rather than break it again, at this point it will be a while maybe till the car is even running let alone running correctly... we really don't know how much damage has been done to the rest of the engine and car)... i'll do what ray suggested and just lower the boost for now. and adding a rev limiter at like 6k would definitely help... not like i'm ever going to have the balls to drive this car hard anyway, even when i do get it back all i will be able to think about is this feeling of inner hatred and disgust of myself so i'll probably just baby it around for its entire life. just becoming more and more clear that all of this wasn't worth it, for a car i can't even drive let alone drive hard.