Any who during my last scheduled maintainence under warranty...once all completed they of course tell you whats else is wrong and what needs fixing. Last visit turns out that they said, (printed at bottom of invoice)
"58620 FOUND CRANKCASE VENTILATION VALVE TO BE THE CAUSE OF MIL TO P2187 FUEL TRIM BANK, BANK 1, SYSTEM TOO LEAN AT IDLE SPEED WHICH IS CAUSED BY INTERNAL LEAKAGE OF CRANKCASE VENTILATION VALVE"
I of course was not going to pay roughly $200 for the repair as I know this is a common problem and easy fix through upgrades and DIYs. But I got the extended warranty in the mail recently addressing this particular issue and now they are saying that there is nothing wrong with the vehicle at all when the service tech hooked it up to diagnosis comp (OBD module I imagine). I do not have a VGA/OBD reader, although that is now on my list of purchases, but I believe that the last tech changed the fault code so the light wouldn't come one for this issue. Service rep says that nothing is showing up as wrong and I am showing her my last invoice (above) detailing what he saw my last service, as well as mailed coupons saying that I need to repair this issue and comes with one of those 10% coupons. I kept asking her to tell the rep screw what comp says cause I know they changed code so nothing show up on diagnostic and open up valve/system itself as it's probably clogged with oil and gunk as well as oil spewed everywhere that could lead to camshaft issue.
I know I know...I need a VGA cable. But now that its covered under warranty they don't want to fix it.
What codes or MIL readings could I tell the tech to input showing me proper/default settings and that my car is running fine. Meaning proper vacuum pressure inHG, no seepage, and everything is sealed properly from intake manifold to crankcase hose?
Thanks and Help please....I've been raising hell cause they know it's BS.
Run it up the chain at the dealer, if the SA won't do anything take it to the Dealer Manager. If they won't do anything call AoA. Dealers hate when AoA gets involved.
hard to tell really, i mean i know for a fact that an audi tech cannot replace a part without a CEL, but with that paperwork you should be able to go back to them and be like its clearly outlined right here.
i never understood why dealerships don't warranty more work, sure its prolly more paperwork on thier end, but they get paid by audi no matter what.
i would go in person and talk to the manager of the service department
Scott
I don't even have an audi....i just love me some 'zine
America is all about speed, hot, nasty, bad-ass speed - Eleanor Roosevelt
hard to tell really, i mean i know for a fact that an audi tech cannot replace a part without a CEL, but with that paperwork you should be able to go back to them and be like its clearly outlined right here.
i never understood why dealerships don't warranty more work, sure its prolly more paperwork on thier end, but they get paid by audi no matter what.
i would go in person and talk to the manager of the service department
I am tomorrow...sucks cause my service rep is actually really good to me and she's the unfortunate middleman between me and the service dept. So I'm just gonna bring it in along with some homework I been reading and just ask, "so did this (pointing to last invoice) fix itself?"....that should start an interesting conversation....
I am tomorrow...sucks cause my service rep is actually really good to me and she's the unfortunate middleman between me and the service dept. So I'm just gonna bring it in along with some homework I been reading and just ask, "so did this (pointing to last invoice) fix itself?"....that should start an interesting conversation....
Lame ont he dealers part. Of all things to be obstinate about, a PCV valve? I could understand something more major, but a PCV VALVE!? They're dead simple to do, probably takes their tech 10 minutes to R&R plus the $70 in parts... Lazy bastards...
-CP
2004 A4 1.8TQ 6MT USP APR Stage 1 - Achtuning Snub - FSI Coils - BKR7EIX-11 (.04" gap) - 710N
Maintenance: 034 Silicon Breather - US Plastics Check Valves - Rev. D SJP - Rev. F PRV - Injector Seats - Coolant Flange
Issues: All control arms are shot - Shitty, poorly worn YK520s - Sloppy TREs - Godawful stock brakes
2006 A4 2.0TQ Avant Tiptronic stocker - Failing TC Mod
What Would Audizine members do?
......Last visit turns out that they said, (printed at bottom of invoice)
"58620 FOUND CRANKCASE VENTILATION VALVE TO BE THE CAUSE OF MIL TO P2187 FUEL TRIM BANK, BANK 1, SYSTEM TOO LEAN AT IDLE SPEED WHICH IS CAUSED BY INTERNAL LEAKAGE OF CRANKCASE VENTILATION VALVE"....
Don't need a MIL to fix this because they (the dealer) found the PCV to be the cause, basically the PCV is messed up and needs to be replaced under warranty. Complain this to Audi of America and bring your car somewhere else if they refuse to fix it.
hard to tell really, i mean i know for a fact that an audi tech cannot replace a part without a CEL, but with that paperwork you should be able to go back to them and be like its clearly outlined right here.
i never understood why dealerships don't warranty more work, sure its prolly more paperwork on thier end, but they get paid by audi no matter what.
i would go in person and talk to the manager of the service department
The bulletin also states oil leaks as symptom of a bad pcv. For the record, replace the shit outta these things. If the car I'm workin on has the Intake Flap Motor extension and the G410 extension too it pays half a days hours and I can do it all in less than 2
well first of all, you can not simply "change the fault code so the light wouldn't come on for this issue". That is litterally IMPOSSIBLE unless youre a tuning company like revo where they actually decypher and code something out to a certain extent(example: the O2 sensor codes). You either fix the issue, or you dont. its cut and dry.
Secondly, ive worked in dealerships for the passed 5 years since i have been out of school...what customers dont understand is that we (dealerships) can not fix a problem under warrenty that doesnt exist (unless its a recall...but the PCV notice is not a recall). This means we have to have some sort of code or some sort of malfunction that shows this part is the issue. That way, if the manufacturer calls back the part in question, the warrenty claim will not be denied and we (the dealer) will not be stuck eating the money involved in the warrenty claim. A common misconception is that dealerships are one with the manufacturer when in reality they are still privately owned businesses that are licensed/authorized to sell/repair a certain brand(s) of vehicles.
so put simply, its not that they dont want to fix it. If anything they would want to fix it for you. because that means a happier customer which typically means a return customer which means more money in thier pocket. However, at the end of the day there are certain steps and procedures you have to follow when dealing with warrenty items. They are just following those steps. Yes maybe they noticed the issue previously, but if the issue is not present NOW...unfortionately theres nothing they can do about it.
i never understood why dealerships don't warranty more work, sure its prolly more paperwork on thier end, but they get paid by audi no matter what.
heres another somewhat misconception, yea...they get paid...but typically warranty pay BARELY pays over what dealer cost is. Which (as im sure you all know) is a good amount difference from a customer paid repair costs.
i should note though i do not and have not worked at an audi dealer (yet)...im on "the dark side"
I came in that visit for oil change with a check engine light on...they did the regular oil and service and told me (just as printed on invoice this is reason). Now I come back 3 weeks later and internal leaking along with pcv malfunction just decided to clean itself up and restore to its natural state of idle running and combustion?
That leads one to think then if they're mis-diagnosing customers and perhaps doing the repairs anyway at the owners expense...what kind of dealer are they running
well first of all, you can not simply "change the fault code so the light wouldn't come on for this issue". That is litterally IMPOSSIBLE unless youre a tuning company like revo where they actually decypher and code something out to a certain extent(example: the O2 sensor codes). You either fix the issue, or you dont. its cut and dry.
Secondly, ive worked in dealerships for the passed 5 years since i have been out of school...what customers dont understand is that we (dealerships) can not fix a problem under warrenty that doesnt exist (unless its a recall...but the PCV notice is not a recall). This means we have to have some sort of code or some sort of malfunction that shows this part is the issue. That way, if the manufacturer calls back the part in question, the warrenty claim will not be denied and we (the dealer) will not be stuck eating the money involved in the warrenty claim. A common misconception is that dealerships are one with the manufacturer when in reality they are still privately owned businesses that are licensed/authorized to sell/repair a certain brand(s) of vehicles.
so put simply, its not that they dont want to fix it. If anything they would want to fix it for you. because that means a happier customer which typically means a return customer which means more money in thier pocket. However, at the end of the day there are certain steps and procedures you have to follow when dealing with warrenty items. They are just following those steps. Yes maybe they noticed the issue previously, but if the issue is not present NOW...unfortionately theres nothing they can do about it.
You also have to love when people bring their car in assuming that their MIL will be covered because of the extension letter (pcv,G410, Intake Flap or Cam/Follower) they put on the seat, only to find that they have an EVAP leak and then suddenly we're "ripping them off because their letter says its free"
I came in that visit for oil change with a check engine light on...they did the regular oil and service and told me (just as printed on invoice this is reason). Now I come back 3 weeks later and internal leaking along with pcv malfunction just decided to clean itself up and restore to its natural state of idle running and combustion?
That leads one to think then if they're mis-diagnosing customers and perhaps doing the repairs anyway at the owners expense...what kind of dealer are they running
there is such a thing as intermittent issues. you never know. ive only been in the business a short 5 years and i have seen some weird ass shit happen with cars.
ill be honest, i dont know what the hell youre talking about in that last sentence though. diagnosing is not garaunteed. its an investigated, trained, & educated guess. It unfortionatly is the way of the trade in all dealerships and most independent shops. sometimes issues are hard to figure out and cars are misdiagnosed.
You also have to love when people bring their car in assuming that their MIL will be covered because of the extension letter (pcv,G410, Intake Flap or Cam/Follower) they put on the seat, only to find that they have an EVAP leak and then suddenly we're "ripping them off because their letter says its free"
haha yea i know! happens all the time. when i was a writer (thank god im not anymore) id make it as clear as possible that if this is not the issue, you will have to pay. people would still get pissed. dealing with customers has made me a pretty miserable people person tbh haha. catch me off of work though and its the complete opposite.
She tried to tell me that the oil leak was from bad seal on oil can/filter o-ring and "we didn't charge you for it." No shyt you didn't charge me...you guys installed it 3 weeks ago, why on earth would I pay for your mistakes...insult to my intelligence...I was very displeased when she told me that after all good reviews I gave her and good service relationship we have/had. The leak might seep through due to how bad it is, but it's Internal getting thrown around my engine too.
Also why send me mail telling me I should replace Crankcase as it is very important for emissions and blah blah blah...also forgot to mention that day after I drop off she calls to tell me they need car over weekend and be a little while cause they need to replace whole cc vent system???
EDIT: also Im pretty sure you can get check engine light to disengaged when triggered. Either through OBD or sensor/clip
there is such a thing as intermittent issues. you never know. ive only been in the business a short 5 years and i have seen some weird ass shit happen with cars.
Amen to that. I've seen some really weird shit in my 8 years in VW/AUDI dealers
honestly man, your story sounds kind of one sided and is not very detailed. i cant really give you advise because its like putting a puzzle together the way youre describing it.
and also no, you can not get a CEL to "disengage" (???) via OBD or a "sensor/clip"(??????). You can CLEAR a check engine light, but if the problem isnt fixed, the CEL will eventually come back. Its not just coming on to piss you off, its coming on because there is a problem that needs to be addressed. It is possible that they may have cleared the light for you when the car was in last. How long it takes for the light to come back on depends on the drive cycles and driving style (for lack of a better word) required for the car to test that particular system. which would be a direct result as how you drive the car (highway, city, high rpm, low rpm, speed youre traveling at, amount of time youre traveling at a given speed, etc) can all play a factor for when the car will run a ceratin test on a certain system. in most cars, the first time a issue is detected, the car stores a "ghost code" which does not throw a CEL but is stores in the ECU. The second time the same issue is detected, the car will turn on the CEL. For example, my old B6a4 got a code for a rear O2 sensor. I cleared it because i didnt want to look at the light. I drove highway maybe once a week, if that. about 2 weeks later, the second time i drove on the highway, steady at about 60mph for a couple miles...boom. CEL came back on. That just happened to be when the car checked for correct opporation of the O2 sensors. I replaced it and never got a code again.
Op I was thinking you had a legitimate gripe at first but now I have no clue what you are talking about and am getting the sense you don't either. The only way you have any grounds to complain at this point is to educate yourself about what has been done to your car by this dealer, what hasn't been done, why things were done and if anything was misdiagnosed, what should have been done.
Your current attitude and lack of knowledge about which you speak means you'll likely not get anywhere around here or at the dealer. Start by getting your terminology straight and explain clearly what the problem is and what was done. No guessing because you don't really know what you're talking about.
-CP
2004 A4 1.8TQ 6MT USP APR Stage 1 - Achtuning Snub - FSI Coils - BKR7EIX-11 (.04" gap) - 710N
Maintenance: 034 Silicon Breather - US Plastics Check Valves - Rev. D SJP - Rev. F PRV - Injector Seats - Coolant Flange
Issues: All control arms are shot - Shitty, poorly worn YK520s - Sloppy TREs - Godawful stock brakes
2006 A4 2.0TQ Avant Tiptronic stocker - Failing TC Mod
I didn't say as fact but I was under the impression seeing as how I mentioned earlier I don't own a VGA thus don't know much about the coding and/or ECU possibilities ...
However, this is not at all one sided...when you, the dealer, send me mail addressing that I need/should fix this issue mainly for both my cars durability and emissions concerns and I schedule to do so, then after telling me that it is problem the following day confirming that they are needing to replace it. Then another call 3 days later stating everything with my car is fine and nothing was wrong to begin with seems a bit odd, no?
I'll update all tomorrow on issue...I have the list of hose and valve part numbers that need replacing according to a former Audi tech on here who has addressed this similar issue before. I appreciate all insight/criticism as I do take it constructively. I'm still learning that's all....also wouldn't be my first letter to A of A. They made sure my glove box was fixed immediately, but that was my old dealer in Orlando.
Op I was thinking you had a legitimate gripe at first but now I have no clue what you are talking about and am getting the sense you don't either. The only way you have any grounds to complain at this point is to educate yourself about what has been done to your car by this dealer, what hasn't been done, why things were done and if anything was misdiagnosed, what should have been done.
Your current attitude and lack of knowledge about which you speak means you'll likely not get anywhere around here or at the dealer. Start by getting your terminology straight and explain clearly what the problem is and what was done. No guessing because you don't really know what you're talking about.
No guessing...clearly laid out for me by dealer themselves.
Also where and which VGA should I purchase for basic use and analysis (like changing seatbelt chime and ability to chart engine performance...
honestly man, your story sounds kind of one sided and is not very detailed. i cant really give you advise because its like putting a puzzle together the way youre describing it.
and also no, you can not get a CEL to "disengage" (???) via OBD or a "sensor/clip"(??????). You can CLEAR a check engine light, but if the problem isnt fixed, the CEL will eventually come back. Its not just coming on to piss you off, its coming on because there is a problem that needs to be addressed. It is possible that they may have cleared the light for you when the car was in last. How long it takes for the light to come back on depends on the drive cycles and driving style (for lack of a better word) required for the car to test that particular system. which would be a direct result as how you drive the car (highway, city, high rpm, low rpm, speed youre traveling at, amount of time youre traveling at a given speed, etc) can all play a factor for when the car will run a certain test on a certain system. in most cars, the first time a issue is detected, the car stores a "ghost code" which does not throw a CEL but is stores in the ECU. The second time the same issue is detected, the car will turn on the CEL. For example, my old B6a4 got a code for a rear O2 sensor. I cleared it because i didnt want to look at the light. I drove highway maybe once a week, if that. about 2 weeks later, the second time i drove on the highway, steady at about 60mph for a couple miles...boom. CEL came back on. That just happened to be when the car checked for correct opporation of the O2 sensors. I replaced it and never got a code again.
Hit me like a ton bricks! (tell me what you think...the following it just my opinion
I was thinking about what you said above and it coincides well-enough to fit my current dilemma. Your are right, they could have cleared the codes on that last visit (deleting all my smog tests and recent driving history) and 3 weeks might not have been enough time for my car's ecu to collect enough data to send out a MIL or trigger a trouble code.
Also I'm not positive it's correct but I read that the PCV valve doesn't show up on a smog/emissions test as it relies on the technician's visual and functional inspection of the PCV through the use of a vacuum pump with pressure gauge, and then he enters this information into the smog machine data. So actually, the smog machine has no knowledge of the valve system failure other then the technician's input. (which I way I think they called me day after to confirm cause she said just by looking at it where gonna need to keep car and so on, but when he took repair to it and no faults had yet to show declared it as having no issues.)
Am I totally wrong here...? Basically they want me to drive it until computers recognizes my driving patterns and emission issues again but another road block is since the trouble codes for emissions test are predetermined values set by comp, that can be changed to trigger MIL at a greater stat than it's default meaning it'll take more time for it to come back on, which is pretty bad if true...I mean I drove in with light on, refused they're advice to repair then and drove away no light on since (3 weeks ago) that is only thing I can come up with as I can't sleep stressed and mad over whole situation and miss driving my car..I hate automatic
dude, just check the pcv yourself and then move on with your life. its easy enough to do (search). if it is busted, then ask them to fix it. if they still won't fix it then deal with AoA. its not a complicated issue. the fact that you have that record will only make it easier.
you are getting way wrapped up in irrelevant details and speculation, and it makes it sound an awful lot like you don't know what you are talking about. talking to the dealer like this will only piss them off and result in worse service.
Hit me like a ton bricks! (tell me what you think...the following it just my opinion
I was thinking about what you said above and it coincides well-enough to fit my current dilemma. Your are right, they could have cleared the codes on that last visit (deleting all my smog tests and recent driving history) and 3 weeks might not have been enough time for my car's ecu to collect enough data to send out a MIL or trigger a trouble code.
Also I'm not positive it's correct but I read that the PCV valve doesn't show up on a smog/emissions test as it relies on the technician's visual and functional inspection of the PCV through the use of a vacuum pump with pressure gauge, and then he enters this information into the smog machine data. So actually, the smog machine has no knowledge of the valve system failure other then the technician's input. (which I way I think they called me day after to confirm cause she said just by looking at it where gonna need to keep car and so on, but when he took repair to it and no faults had yet to show declared it as having no issues.)
Am I totally wrong here...? Basically they want me to drive it until computers recognizes my driving patterns and emission issues again but another road block is since the trouble codes for emissions test are predetermined values set by comp, that can be changed to trigger MIL at a greater stat than it's default meaning it'll take more time for it to come back on, which is pretty bad if true...I mean I drove in with light on, refused they're advice to repair then and drove away no light on since (3 weeks ago) that is only thing I can come up with as I can't sleep stressed and mad over whole situation and miss driving my car..I hate automatic
What does being automatic have to do with it again?
last maintenance wasn't warranty just a discounted schedule service.
8) now at peace
Well either way the PCV should have been under warranty, as Audi has released an extended warranty for the PCV system. THey told you would have to pay for it, which is why you declined it? If thats the case they were originally trying to pull a fast one.
Sounds like they've come to their senses...
-CP
2004 A4 1.8TQ 6MT USP APR Stage 1 - Achtuning Snub - FSI Coils - BKR7EIX-11 (.04" gap) - 710N
Maintenance: 034 Silicon Breather - US Plastics Check Valves - Rev. D SJP - Rev. F PRV - Injector Seats - Coolant Flange
Issues: All control arms are shot - Shitty, poorly worn YK520s - Sloppy TREs - Godawful stock brakes
2006 A4 2.0TQ Avant Tiptronic stocker - Failing TC Mod
i gotcha now, i didn't mean anything by it, it was just unclear in your posts about what happened, glad things worked out sounds like there could have been a miscommunication or something
Scott
I don't even have an audi....i just love me some 'zine
America is all about speed, hot, nasty, bad-ass speed - Eleanor Roosevelt
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Originally Posted by srn1985
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