3.0 Tiptronic- Change ATF or not?

[big_c]

Hey everyone, I have a 03 5AT tiptronic, shifts great, but the first 1->2 shift of the day on cold start is a bit firmer than others. Other than that, it drives like new. As far as i know, the fluid has never been changed. I want to make sure the trans lasts for me, so changing the ATF is the logical next move. I have 92k on it. Debating whether or not to buy the blauparts kit and do the job my self. It looks pretty easy, but I only will have the VCDS shareware and ebay vag com cable. Will this be adequate to read the temperature?

Also, I am a bit nervous because I've read a post from someone stating that they had shifting issues after a drain and fill. Thoughts or reccomendations?

[Audized]

I've changed ATF twice and never had shifting issues.

[rollerton]

Yeah, change it. Swap the filter, refill it when warm'ish and you'll be way better off than having 100k mile fluid in there.

[Rob_M]

Yup - change it. Just did the Blauparts kit. Piece of cake. Gotta have the VAG-COM to monitor the fluid temp to get the right fill.
One note of caution is the crappy torx tranny pan bolt heads might strip - they are made of play-doh.
Whack the torx screwdriver into the bolt with a hammer first to loosen it up.
I managed to get all mine out but stripped a few in the process. The Blauparts kit has a few extra bolts - but they are hex-head bolts. Way better.
For about 5 bucks I replaced all of mine with hex-head bolts.
Also note the fluid pump that comes with the kit does not fit the supplied ATF bottles very well at all (!)
I had a Pentosin ATF bottle handy that it fit perfectly on, so had to transfer the fluid into it first...PITA....
End of the day - seems much smoother on cold starts - I mean really cold - like -40 cold....

[yorkcountydub]

personally i'd be hesitant, especially if the fluid has never been changed before. the shifting could possibly get worse. i hope this makes some sense. your trans right now is used to all the material from the clutch packs and fluid in it right now. it's possible that when you flush your trans you'd loose all that material that has been in-sync with everything in the trans. so by loosing that you might actually make the shifting worse. it's a roll of the dice is what im saying. now if you'd been changing the fluid every 40k miles that would be different. good luck tho

[Kwarner]

I just did my first 01V filter and fluid change after 113k and the transmission slop definitely got much better.

[diagnosticator]

The idea that the tip trans needs old contaminated fluid for the clutches to work is illogical nonsense. Flushing a trans using a flushing machine can loosen wear deposits and cause problems is an unproven theory also. I recommend just draining the trans and using Pentosin ATF-1 fluid for the refill. In order to get most of the old fluid out a second fluid change should be done soon after the first. After a couple of fluid changes now at 98K miles, my tip shifts better than new and the clutches grab right now.

[rollerton]

The idea that the tip trans needs old contaminated fluid for the clutches to work is illogical nonsense. .

I read this thread this morning, saw the comment #5 and went out to work on my Dune buggy hoping someone would say this for me. Now move on up to the 'remote starters' thread.
It's too bad there isn't a way to find things from old threads that have already been asked..hmm..soommethiing... maaaybe..? naah. Oh well.

[big_c]

Yup - change it. Just did the Blauparts kit. Piece of cake. Gotta have the VAG-COM to monitor the fluid temp to get the right fill.
One note of caution is the crappy torx tranny pan bolt heads might strip - they are made of play-doh.
Whack the torx screwdriver into the bolt with a hammer first to loosen it up.
I managed to get all mine out but stripped a few in the process. The Blauparts kit has a few extra bolts - but they are hex-head bolts. Way better.
For about 5 bucks I replaced all of mine with hex-head bolts.
Also note the fluid pump that comes with the kit does not fit the supplied ATF bottles very well at all (!)
I had a Pentosin ATF bottle handy that it fit perfectly on, so had to transfer the fluid into it first...PITA....
End of the day - seems much smoother on cold starts - I mean really cold - like -40 cold....

Thanks for the reply. Did you find the 6 quarts that it came with to be sufficient?

[coolblue]

The idea that the tip trans needs old contaminated fluid for the clutches to work is illogical nonsense. Flushing a trans using a flushing machine can loosen wear deposits and cause problems is an unproven theory also. I recommend just draining the trans and using Pentosin ATF-1 fluid for the refill. In order to get most of the old fluid out a second fluid change should be done soon after the first. After a couple of fluid changes now at 98K miles, my tip shifts better than new and the clutches grab right now.

Hi Diagnosticator,
I'd read your comments on the complete tip trans fluids change may cause more problems in the past, that's why I'm always afriad of getting the trans fluid change till now.
So you will recommend to just drain and refrill the trans oem ATF at least two times instead of the complete trans fluids change (open the trans belly pand & replace the Pan Gasket and Pan Filter), correct?
By the doing the drain and refrill the trans ATF, will it possible to solve my vibration at D drive at stop problems-it's very annoying.
(See my post here)
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...se-issues-help


Thanks in Advance.

[big_c]

If you are going to change the fluid- do it right and remove the pan and filter, and clean the magnets as well. Then just do an additional drain and refill in a few weeks if you are still having issues.

I have a bit of vibration in D at idle as well, it gets much less noticeable when the car is fully warmed up. Im chalking it up to the torque converter not fully disengaging until the fluid is thinned out and warm. (92k on fluid). Hoping the trans fluid change solves this problem.

[coolblue]

If you are going to change the fluid- do it right and remove the pan and filter, and clean the magnets as well. Then just do an additional drain and refill in a few weeks if you are still having issues.

I have a bit of vibration in D at idle as well, it gets much less noticeable when the car is fully warmed up. Im chalking it up to the torque converter not fully disengaging until the fluid is thinned out and warm. (92k on fluid). Hoping the trans fluid change solves this problem.

But in my case, I don't have vibration all the times (usually 50/50) and only happened at D Drive at stop and it's very quiet and smooth when there's no vibration. There are much more chances (70-80%) getting the shaking vibration at D when warmed up or warmer weather.

[b6onboost]

I agree that the idea is illogical nonsense, Audi claimed it happened to our A6 4.2.

Car was flawless, not a single issue, never had warranty work...just scheduled maintenance up to 60k. Dealer replaced the fluid, car shifted poorly, they gave us the explanation that the microscopic shavings and material in the worn ATF provides added friction and when replaced with new ATF the transmission has the potential to slip. I can't explain why an otherwise perfect tranny would all the sudden shift so poorly, but it did. Logical or not that was Audi's explanation and they were willing to replace the tranny under extended warranty.

The idea that the tip trans needs old contaminated fluid for the clutches to work is illogical nonsense. Flushing a trans using a flushing machine can loosen wear deposits and cause problems is an unproven theory also. I recommend just draining the trans and using Pentosin ATF-1 fluid for the refill. In order to get most of the old fluid out a second fluid change should be done soon after the first. After a couple of fluid changes now at 98K miles, my tip shifts better than new and the clutches grab right now.

[big_c]

60k was the reccomended interval for your a6? I thought it was lifetime - if so why would Audi change it?

[big_c]

Bought the blauparts kit and it should arrive along with my vag com cable tomorrow. Will report back after I get it changed. I am hoping that the cold shift quality is greatly improved!

Here is the procedure I plan on using:

http://www.audiction.com/audi-mainte...-fluid-change/

[big_c]

The idea that the tip trans needs old contaminated fluid for the clutches to work is illogical nonsense. Flushing a trans using a flushing machine can loosen wear deposits and cause problems is an unproven theory also. I recommend just draining the trans and using Pentosin ATF-1 fluid for the refill. In order to get most of the old fluid out a second fluid change should be done soon after the first. After a couple of fluid changes now at 98K miles, my tip shifts better than new and the clutches grab right now.

Diagnosticator and Kwarner: How did your trans perform prior to the fluid change? Did you have any firm shifts when it was cold, or noticeable downshifting? These are the two symptoms that seem to be mostly normal, that I want to resolve with the fluid change.

[road_tripper]

I agree that the idea is illogical nonsense, Audi claimed it happened to our A6 4.2.

Car was flawless, not a single issue, never had warranty work...just scheduled maintenance up to 60k. Dealer replaced the fluid, car shifted poorly, they gave us the explanation that the microscopic shavings and material in the worn ATF provides added friction and when replaced with new ATF the transmission has the potential to slip. I can't explain why an otherwise perfect tranny would all the sudden shift so poorly, but it did. Logical or not that was Audi's explanation and they were willing to replace the tranny under extended warranty.

I had an SUV with a zf tranny; changed tranny fluid at 70K, and then not again for 120K, and then a 30K interval and then a 50K interval (last fluid change done at 274K) and had no problems with the transmission. The change at 190K, the fluid was dark brown (like molasses) and I was also told my transmission was going to blow up in 10 miles (or 500 miles)... SOON! well the old truck kept going another 90K until I sold it. A lot of people said the same as the audi guys told you... the fluid has friction particles from the clutches and if the fluid is drained, the tranny was going slip because all the clutch material drained out.

No matter the cause, one has to love that extended warranty while it is in effect!

[Kwarner]

Diagnosticator and Kwarner: How did your trans perform prior to the fluid change? Did you have any firm shifts when it was cold, or noticeable downshifting? These are the two symptoms that seem to be mostly normal, that I want to resolve with the fluid change.

Prior to the change I would have very noticeable delays in shifting as well as jerking when switching from drive to reverse or vice-versa. There was also noticeable jerking when down shifting, especially when coming to a stop. After the change delays have almost disappeared completely and there is no jerking whatsoever when shifting or switching from drive to reverse.

[RLB6]

Please tell me you don't actually believe that. You are pretty much rattling off what a dealer has told you or something you heard through hearsay. This is all false. All the tiptronic owners I know have only experienced an improvement when the ATF/filter service has been properly performed. Hell, I didn't swap my tranny fluid til I had 130K on the clock. I just did another service when I swapped in my new pistons and my transmission is doing well mated to my 2.0 stroker, 9.5:1, CTB-30R powered motor.

Folks who have not had a good experience when getting the trans serviced is mostly likely do to an improper procedure. The single most important part of servicing the ZF transmission is getting the fluild up to the exact specified temperature to check and properly fill to the absolute correct level. Not getting the temperature right and attempting to fill the transmission can be costly.

personally i'd be hesitant, especially if the fluid has never been changed before. the shifting could possibly get worse. i hope this makes some sense. your trans right now is used to all the material from the clutch packs and fluid in it right now. it's possible that when you flush your trans you'd loose all that material that has been in-sync with everything in the trans. so by loosing that you might actually make the shifting worse. it's a roll of the dice is what im saying. now if you'd been changing the fluid every 40k miles that would be different. good luck tho

[big_c]

RLB6- thanks for the reply.

Here is the procedure I intend on using for filling.

1. Fill level pan with fluid until overflow. Should be around 3 qt. Install fill plug.
2. Connect vag com and check fluid temp. If below 40*C, start the car.
3. With the car running, hold the brakes and cycle through all gears, holding each for 10 secs.
4. Leave the car running and open fill plug. Add fluid until overflow. Leave fill plug open and keep engine running.
5. Continue checking fluid temp to ensure below 40*C, cycling through gears, and adding fluid until fluid approaches 40*C.
6. Once near 40*C, install fill plug and turn engine off.
7. Wait until fluid temp is at 32 or so. Start the engine and cycle through the gears again. Open fill plug and add fluid. Continue cycling gears and adding fluid until you reach 40*
8. Once fluid reads 40*- fill until overflow. Torque fill plug to 59 ft lb.

It seems the overall idea is that at 40*C, you want the fluid to be topped off. All the gear cycling procedures are to ensure that every passage in the transmission has fluid in it, so there are no voids.

[RLB6]

Exactly, the key here is the temperature of the fluid (anywhere between 30 - 50*C) For me, my fuild temps have to be down to atleast 32*C but 40*C is ideal under normal conditions.

[b6onboost]

I think it was because the car was 5 years old, even though it only had 60k, so they recommended changing the ATF.

60k was the reccomended interval for your a6? I thought it was lifetime - if so why would Audi change it?

[big_c]

Right- but the fluid is supposed to be lifetime- as in, never change it. Curious as to why an Audi dealer would have you change a lifetime fluid in 5 years.

[Charles.waite]

Right- but the fluid is supposed to be lifetime- as in, never change it. Curious as to why an Audi dealer would have you change a lifetime fluid in 5 years.

Lifetime doesn't mean what you think it does. Its more or less a copout on Audi's part where they didn't want to specify a certain change interval. Basically "Lifetime" means its good until its not good.

Audi just issued a TSB on the B7's ZF 6_Speed Tiptronic about the faulty Torque Converters saying to change the "Lifetime" transmission fluid as a possible fix.

Lifetime doesn't really mean anything. It just means they never HAVE to change it as part of a service interval.

[big_c]

Lifetime doesn't mean what you think it does. Its more or less a copout on Audi's part where they didn't want to specify a certain change interval. Basically "Lifetime" means its good until its not good.

Audi just issued a TSB on the B7's ZF 6_Speed Tiptronic about the faulty Torque Converters saying to change the "Lifetime" transmission fluid as a possible fix.

Lifetime doesn't really mean anything. It just means they never HAVE to change it as part of a service interval.

I agree with you. Will be changing my 92k fluid tonight. I was referencing b6onboost's post that suggested that his transmission was destroyed after a fluid change on his A6. My question to him was why would an Audi dealer change a lifetime rated fluid after only 5 years/60k? I've never heard of an Audi dealer that would perform a fluid change on this trans. Seems sketchy

[big_c]

I agree with you. Will be changing my 92k fluid tonight. I was referencing b6onboost's post that suggested that his transmission was destroyed after a fluid change on his A6. My question to him was why would an Audi dealer change a lifetime rated fluid after only 5 years/60k? I've never heard of an Audi dealer that would perform a fluid change on this trans. Seems sketchy

Ok, Im mostly done with the fluid change. Just have to top it off with the vag com when the cable arrives.


Some tips for anyone else who is doing it-

Be sure to have a long T27 Bit for the forward bolts, there is a trans line in the way that makes it difficult to access with a short bit.

As mentioned before, tap the bolt with the bit to jolt it loose.

Other than that, its pretty easy. I have 5 qts in now, and need to add the rest later. While filling per the procedure- I got a check engine light :( No idea what it is from, but will check later. Hoping its nothing serious, perhaps a low ATF signal because I was in the process of filling it with the engine on??

To parrot everyone else, definitely change the fluid. There was a nice layer of thick silvery oil at the bottom of the pan, and the magnets were coated. I could see some very thin silvery powder in the bottom of the pan. The fluid was a shade of black when viewed in a clear container. This is with 92k on it.

The fluid that comes with the blauparts kit is Meyle ATF 3-H, its a shade of pink like normal trans fluid. It is marked as VW G 052 162 Compliant.

[zz2h33]

good job dude. if anything piece of mind is worth the work!

[big_c]

Yeah, this CEL is freaking me out though!

I got about 5.5 qts in, which is almost exactly what I removed between draining, the pan, and what drained out of the filter. I didn't get my VAG COM cable yet today, will be in tomorrow, so I just filled it to overflow when it was warm-ish, and like I said its the same amt as I drained from it.

I took it for a test drive, and was pleasantly surprised. The trans shifted smooth as butter, and the previous downshifting jerking was much less noticeable. Also the trans seemed to hold gears better around corners, so its not downshifting all the time.

So, I will leave it until I can confirm the fluid temps and level, and check out the cold start shifting to see if it solved the problem.

[Charles.waite]

Damn that's some serious transmission debris. It's like the fluid has sludges to the bottom. I need to change the ATF in my b7 soon. That'll be a treat. Apparently they use some special fluid that's extremely expensive. Of course my torque converter is on its way out so I'm hoping the fluid change will give it a new lease on life until AoA issues an extended warranty on the TC...

And by expensive I mean $45/liter expensive...

[big_c]

Damn that's some serious transmission debris. It's like the fluid has sludges to the bottom. I need to change the ATF in my b7 soon. That'll be a treat. Apparently they use some special fluid that's extremely expensive. Of course my torque converter is on its way out so I'm hoping the fluid change will give it a new lease on life until AoA issues an extended warranty on the TC...

And by expensive I mean $45/liter expensive...

Yeah, it was nice to clean the magnets and pan off. The sludge wasn't as bad as I had expected, for 92k of driving. Just some very fine metallic particles at the bottom of the catch pan that I drained into. When pouring the fluid into a larger container, it was more of a dark yellowish clear grey color, with no visible pieces or anything. Either way, it was definitely worth the money to know that there is mostly particle free fluid circulating now!

[diagnosticator]

RLB6- thanks for the reply.

Here is the procedure I intend on using for filling.

1. Fill level pan with fluid until overflow. Should be around 3 qt. Install fill plug.
2. Connect vag com and check fluid temp. If below 40*C, start the car.
3. With the car running, hold the brakes and cycle through all gears, holding each for 10 secs.
4. Leave the car running and open fill plug. Add fluid until overflow. Leave fill plug open and keep engine running.
5. Continue checking fluid temp to ensure below 40*C, cycling through gears, and adding fluid until fluid approaches 40*C.
6. Once near 40*C, install fill plug and turn engine off.
7. Wait until fluid temp is at 32 or so. Start the engine and cycle through the gears again. Open fill plug and add fluid. Continue cycling gears and adding fluid until you reach 40*
8. Once fluid reads 40*- fill until overflow. Torque fill plug to 59 ft lb.

It seems the overall idea is that at 40*C, you want the fluid to be topped off. All the gear cycling procedures are to ensure that every passage in the transmission has fluid in it, so there are no voids.

That differs from the procedure in the Bentley somewhat. The key difference is that you must have dripping overflow with the fluid temp below ~45 deg C. Max., and above ~ 35 deg C, Minimum, with the engine idling in P or N. With fluid dripping overflow between those two fluid temps, install the fill plug then turn the engine off.


Refilling ATF:

"Fill with ATF using ATF filler tool VAG1924 until ATF exits from the check hole.
Shift selector lever into position "P" .
Start engine.
Keeping the brake pedal depressed, shift into all selector lever positions at idle speed. Each position must remain selected for at least 10 seconds.
Shift selector lever into position "P" .
Check ATF level and top off. Refer to ATF Level, Checking onward."

Checking fluid Level:

"Once an ATF temperature of 35 degree C is reached, remove ATF check plug - arrow - and drain excess ATF if necessary."

"If ATF flows out from the ATF filler plug hole before the ATF reaches 40 degree C, the ATF level - arrow - is OK."

"ATF check plug must be closed again by 45 degree C 2) at the latest Always replace seal (arrow) for ATF check plug".

Ref: Bentley

[diagnosticator]

Hi Diagnosticator,
I'd read your comments on the complete tip trans fluids change may cause more problems in the past, that's why I'm always afriad of getting the trans fluid change till now.
So you will recommend to just drain and refrill the trans oem ATF at least two times instead of the complete trans fluids change (open the trans belly pand & replace the Pan Gasket and Pan Filter), correct?
By the doing the drain and refrill the trans ATF, will it possible to solve my vibration at D drive at stop problems-it's very annoying.
(See my post here)
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...se-issues-help



Thanks in Advance.

The first fluid and filter change, the pan must be removed to change the filter, and clean out the pan. After that, any second or third fluid changes only need the fluid changed, without removing the pan. Changing the trans ATF will not effect the idle vibration, it's not related to the trans ATF at all.

[big_c]

Just an update on this-

I have been driving the last week since the trans fluid change. My idle vibration in D is significantly less noticeable than before. The firm first 1-->2 shift on cold start is also much less firm.

[msharifi]

I just can't wait to start on mine! Glad the fluid change fixed your issues.

[aldito2]

Does anyone know of a diy for trans ? Is vag com absolutely necesaary ? Sorry if this has beej posted already im kind of a noob

[big_c]

Before you do anything, read this thread several times. The DIY was posted in post #15.

http://www.audiction.com/audi-mainte...-fluid-change/

Yes, you want a VAG com cable to ensure you have the proper fluid level. Get one from ebay for $7. I filled mine without a cable at first, and ended up being .25 qt too much.