Dentist drill = Engine pull on franken turbos.......Need some advice

[speedlyte]

So i have the dentist drill with my Franken Turbos.....Driver's side......I believe its due to the down pipe spring being wound to tight. It was cut to make the down pipes fit. ssac down pipes.

I'm going to have at least the drivers side turbo rebuilt maybe the passenger side too since its under the 1 year warranty for the next three days ($250 a turbo).

Thanks Doug @ franken turbo for extending the warranty period as there is no way in hell those turbos are coming out that fast...


1 - Now I have to decide to return the car to stock.....and sell the stage 3 pieces separate (not part out)

2 - repair the turbos and sell it stage 3

3 - Anyone in south florida willing to work out a trade deal with cash on top of parts swap........

4- keep it and possible buy a lower mileage motor and do any extra repairs while I'm in there ? current mileage 145k


Here is the list of stuff and the repairs been done......

Upgrades

Franken turbos
H&R springs + bilstein shocks
034 ko4 inlets
Vast tune
Awe intercoolers
Samaco hose kit
Apr bi-pipe kit....
034 housing with hitatchi MAF
custom cold air intake
SSAC down pipes
UUC exhaust
dutechworks fuel pump
rebuilt tranny
replaced rear calipers with new
replaced front calipers with rebuilt ones
electric fan kit (fan delete)
lower temp thermostat - hot florida weather
intake manifold spacers
Audi 710 diverter valves...
short throw shifter....not sure of the brand
neuspeed rear sway bar...
low temp aux coolant fan sensor

Service
All seals have been replaced - valve covers, cam seals, cam caps, tensioner seals crank seal, rear main, upper and lower oil pan seals redone
New battery
clutch sensors both replaced
both 02s replaced
New front axles
1 Cam sensor replaced
034 engine mounts
rs4 tranny mounts
new spark plugs and coils
timing belt done at 135k
oem stereo replaced with ECS refurb....
Trim swap from wood to aluminum..
purge valve replaced
new n75 with orginal turbo swap
aux water pump replaced
oil level sensor replaced..
control arms were done around 60k

[speedlyte]

I need a final retune.....but I was maxing out on boost at 25 psi......so I want that dropped to about 20 ish regardless of what I do with the car...

[Aureus1]

I need a final retune.....but I was maxing out on boost at 25 psi......so I want that dropped to about 20 ish regardless of what I do with the car...

How many miles were on your turbos when this happened??? My palms are starting to sweat...

[speedlyte]

I don't think you want me to answer that question.......5k.....In all honesty I don't blame them for going bad to many variables on my side....I've addressed them all but still causes wear and tear...

* found multiple misfires - all resolved now

* 25 psi to high for these turbos in my opinon I maybe wrong

* The spring helping to clamp down drivers side down pipe was cut resulting in more tension

* Do to oil leaks found out I was a quart to low........

* I had boost leak problems....drivers side turbo hose popped off twice!

* running super rich due to the egts going bad

* during tuning realized I bad 02s

* started with a k04 tune.....that was bad idea.....

[slappy_dunbar]

Refresh them both. At $150 a pop it's crazy not to.

[speedlyte]

Refresh them both. At $150 a pop it's crazy not to.

And people swear by k04s rather than Franken turbos......I'd be up the creek without a paddle right now......

[DanS4]

And people swear by k04s rather than Franken turbos......I'd be up the creek without a paddle right now......

Yes k04s are oem parts.

I trust oem wheels over replicas.

[S4 00 2.7]

Refresh them both. At $150 a pop it's crazy not to.

This.

[Aureus1]

I don't think you want me to answer that question.......5k.....In all honesty I don't blame them for going bad to many variables on my side....I've addressed them all but still causes wear and tear...

Yeah sounds like life wasn't too easy for them. I'm around 16k on mine so hopefully I'm somewhat in the clear...

[Monty23]

Yes k04s are oem parts.

I trust oem wheels over replicas.

Do franks not have oem KO4 CHRAs?

[RicoSuave]

PM me regarding the turbos, fueling and intercoolers.

Thanks, and hope all goes well on the rebuild!

[speedlyte]

Well I've decided to keep it and rebuild the turbos, replace with a lower mileage motor, and keep it stage 3. I found a good deal on replacing with a lower mileage motor and am selling my motor to a local so I'd like to freshen up the newer engine.

* I want to thank Bryan @ Audis4parts he is supplying the engine......As always A+ customer service and parts.

List I should do to freshen up the motor...



Valve covers, cam tensioners, cam seals, crank seals, upper and lower oil pan, rear main, valley pan gasket
Timing belt kit
turbo install kit
fly wheel bolts
clutch throw out bearing * clutch is 5k old so no need for new clutch w light weight fly wheel
exhaust manifold gasket
Front passenger cam position sensor - APR bi-pipe blocks it off so I would have to pull the front end to do it.....
oil change with larger oil filter
coolant, power steering fluid, brake fluid, etc
spider hose is less than a year old...
n75 - less than a year old
spark plugs less than 500 miles and coils are fairly new
Samaco hose kit - already installed

Extras I should do? Or maybe not? Or something else?

Oil lines for the turbo - prevent clogged lines?
Crank sensor - time to install and location?
knock sensor - time to install and location?
speed sensor - time to install and location?
reference sensor - don't even know what that is but ...again based off time to install and location...should I

Anything else anyone recommend I should do?

[speedlyte]

Do franks not have oem KO4 CHRAs?

This was quoted from Vast's website.

Hybrid K04 framed turbochargers with hybrid compressor wheels, rivaling that of the overall performance of the RS6-k04 turbocharger and the flow characteristics of the Porsche 997 compressor wheel, but with better spool downlow.

[AudiSportB5S4]

^ Right, and I hope no one interprets that they have OEM K04 CHRAs... They are a turbo crafted in the fine land of China with a different wheel.. Absolutely no parts from the mother land (Germany) in those turbos.

[Don Supreme]

^ Right, and I hope no one interprets that they have OEM K04 CHRAs... They are a turbo crafted in the fine land of China with a different wheel.. Absolutely no parts from the mother land (Germany) in those turbos.

I thought it was "Father land" LOL.....

[splatt]

^ Right, and I hope no one interprets that they have OEM K04 CHRAs... They are a turbo crafted in the fine land of China with a different wheel.. Absolutely no parts from the father land (Germany) in those turbos.

Ftfy

[AudiSportB5S4]

haha.. Had to do some research...

[Max@034]

So i have the dentist drill with my Franken Turbos.....Driver's side......I believe its due to the down pipe spring being wound to tight. It was cut to make the down pipes fit. ssac down pipes.

Sorry, but I almost guarantee that is not the cause of your turbo going out... Your downpipe bolts directly the exhaust housing of the turbo, which is also bolted directly to the exhaust manifold; there is no flex in a cast iron turbine housing to cause your wheels to touch a housing or something.... Your crap SSAC downpipes will crack/flex far before a turbo should; they are made from sheet metal almost (this is from experience, not because we make a better product).

Unless you installed the turbos wrong, which is basically impossible since you've been running around with them for some time, your turbo went out for a different reason then your clamp being wrong on the bottom of your downpipe... You are also running 25psi on a turbo that...is not made to be run at 25psi.

[RedB5S4]

Sorry, but I almost guarantee that is not the cause of your turbo going out... Your downpipe bolts directly the exhaust housing of the turbo, which is also bolted directly to the exhaust manifold; there is no flex in a cast iron turbine housing to cause your wheels to touch a housing or something.... Your crap SSAC downpipes will crack/flex far before a turbo should; they are made from sheet metal almost (this is from experience, not because we make a better product).

Unless you installed the turbos wrong, which is basically impossible since you've been running around with them for some time, your turbo went out for a different reason then your clamp being wrong on the bottom of your downpipe... You are also running 25psi on a turbo that...is not made to be run at 25psi.

Glad I'm not the only one that thought the "spring causing turbo failure" didn't sound right.

Like Max said, the downpipes are going to break wayyyyyy before the turbine housing would warp. On the same hand, though, I don't see why people continuously insist on putting 25+psi through K04s and FrankenTurbos and then wonder why they fail prematurely. They simply weren't manufactured to consistently see those boost pressures.

[Burningcoals]

I don't think you want me to answer that question.......5k.....In all honesty I don't blame them for going bad to many variables on my side....I've addressed them all but still causes wear and tear...

* found multiple misfires - all resolved now

* 25 psi to high for these turbos in my opinon I maybe wrong

* The spring helping to clamp down drivers side down pipe was cut resulting in more tension

* Do to oil leaks found out I was a quart to low........

* I had boost leak problems....drivers side turbo hose popped off twice!

* running super rich due to the egts going bad

* during tuning realized I bad 02s

* started with a k04 tune.....that was bad idea.....

Just my opinion, but only boost should be a factor in contributing to the failure IMO. Innovative repaired 2 sets of K04's for FREE when they failed on my car.

[dannyn424]

flexing downpipes.. now I've heard everything lol....

[speedlyte]

Sorry, but I almost guarantee that is not the cause of your turbo going out... Your downpipe bolts directly the exhaust housing of the turbo, which is also bolted directly to the exhaust manifold; there is no flex in a cast iron turbine housing to cause your wheels to touch a housing or something.... Your crap SSAC downpipes will crack/flex far before a turbo should; they are made from sheet metal almost (this is from experience, not because we make a better product).

Unless you installed the turbos wrong, which is basically impossible since you've been running around with them for some time, your turbo went out for a different reason then your clamp being wrong on the bottom of your downpipe... You are also running 25psi on a turbo that...is not made to be run at 25psi.

That makes sense......What is weird is the car wasn't boosting up 25 psi with my tune. Then I installed the down pipes and it was boosting up to 25 psi......I wonder if the N75 is bad or something else..... ?

[Audi_S4]

25psi = 1.73bar

That's wayyy too much boost for sthose turbo's. okay some people will be lucky but you cant have a nice linear dyno graph with those boostlevels on K04 framed turbo's. I'd say 21psi max if you wanna have a reliable car!

[speedlyte]

And so this dismantling begins......and getting ready for the lower mileage engine......The joys of s4 ownership....lol

[kbjy11]

get us some pics of the wheels and/or a video of shaft play, if any...!

[AudiSportB5S4]

25psi = 1.73bar

That's wayyy too much boost for sthose turbo's.

Ever see what Flyboy (my favorite member on Audizine) runs?



That image is from his build thread..

[speedlyte]

He is hitting like 27-28 pounds of boost!

**If you look at my third picture the waste gate hose was split open......Which was probably the cause of my turbo failure.

[FlyboyS4]

He is hitting like 27-28 pounds of boost!

Keep in mind that for one thing I don't drive around holding high boost all that much, second, I intentionally have pushed the boost level to see what I could achieve briefly with a degree of comfort. That boost profile is higher that what I currently use.

**If you look at my third picture the waste gate hose was split open......Which was probably the cause of my turbo failure.

Thus illustrating the need for anybody to reserve judgment about the product reliability until a cause of failure can be found. Having the turbine continue to accelerate until the TIP can force the wg flapper open was probably not conducive to longevity.

You are also running 25psi on a turbo that...is not made to be run at 25psi.

I don't see why people continuously insist on putting 25+psi through K04s and FrankenTurbos and then wonder why they fail prematurely. They simply weren't manufactured to consistently see those boost pressures.

This has been the hundred dollar question for me, how much boost pressure to make so that the reliability is not greatly impacted. You guys seem to have some insight into the answer, could you share what you know? I've gone over the compressor map and used some estimates for pressure losses across the turbo and it doesn't seem like 25-26 psi is pushing the FT's, as long as the boost tapers off at the uppermost rpm's, above the 6000 rpm mark.

[Don Supreme]

He is hitting like 27-28 pounds of boost!

**If you look at my third picture the waste gate hose was split open......Which was probably the cause of my turbo failure.

I was looking at the picture and wondering if that line was torn... BINGO!

[speedlyte]

The line was definitely torn. Going with stainless steel braided lines this time around.

[sektor M7]

Keep in mind that for one thing I don't drive around holding high boost all that much, second, I intentionally have pushed the boost level to see what I could achieve briefly with a degree of comfort. That boost profile is higher that what I currently use.



Thus illustrating the need for anybody to reserve judgment about the product reliability until a cause of failure can be found. Having the turbine continue to accelerate until the TIP can force the wg flapper open was probably not conducive to longevity.





This has been the hundred dollar question for me, how much boost pressure to make so that the reliability is not greatly impacted. You guys seem to have some insight into the answer, could you share what you know? I've gone over the compressor map and used some estimates for pressure losses across the turbo and it doesn't seem like 25-26 psi is pushing the FT's, as long as the boost tapers off at the uppermost rpm's, above the 6000 rpm mark.

A compressor map is not the tell all, it simply shows what a turbo theoretical capeable is on a bench under controlled conditions.

As far as I can tell your input on those turbos is going to be limited because you are never get on them for any extended period of time. By your own admission you are just looking for a little push in your prefered RPM band in rush hour traffic.

Looking into my little crystal bowl tells me if you run FT's or KO4's at 26 psi at Vmax on unrestricted roads they are going to blow fairly quickly.

[speedlyte]

A compressor map is not the tell all, it simply shows what a turbo theoretical capeable is on a bench under controlled conditions.

As far as I can tell your input on those turbos is going to be limited because you are never get on them for any extended period of time. By your own admission you are just looking for a little push in your prefered RPM band in rush hour traffic.

Looking into my little crystal bowl tells me if you run FT's or KO4's at 26 psi at Vmax on unrestricted roads they are going to blow fairly quickly.

My tune wasn't higher than 22 psi.....When the down pipes were installed the boost increased to 25 psi. My guess is the pipe connecting the wastegates was nicked. Eventually splitting the hose.

[Don Supreme]

My tune wasn't higher than 22 psi.....When the down pipes were installed the boost increased to 25 psi. My guess is the pipe connecting the wastegates was nicked. Eventually splitting the hose.

Or one turbo was barely spinning and the other was working @ 100%.... Assuming such a thing is possible.

[FlyboyS4]

A compressor map is not the tell all, it simply shows what a turbo theoretical capeable is on a bench under controlled conditions.

I understand that there are affects that I'm not recording that could alter the way I see the turbo performance and that the compressor map should be viewed as an approximation. That was why I was inquiring with Max@034 and RedB5S4 about how they knew the FT was not designed to operate at 25 psi.

As far as I can tell your input on those turbos is going to be limited because you are never get on them for any extended period of time. By your own admission you are just looking for a little push in your prefered RPM band in rush hour traffic.

Looking into my little crystal bowl tells me if you run FT's or KO4's at 26 psi at Vmax on unrestricted roads they are going to blow fairly quickly.

I've explained to you previously (past discussion) that my evaluation of the parts on my car are under the conditions that I operate the vehicle. I realize that you believe a part should be tested under more stressful conditions than it is normally operated to get useful results, even if the conditions are unlikely to be encountered during regular operation of the vehicle.

I operate my car on public roads where multiple-gear, wot acceleration is unnecessary. A single gear pull through 3rd is more than enough for any situation I'll encounter on these roads. I would be concerned about reliability and component failure if I were to take my car to a track and be driving wot through multiple gears for an extended time. Of course I wouldn't just be concerned about the turbo's reliability under those conditions, there are numerous other parts on the car that would be subjected to higher stresses and be more prone to failure as well.

[aysix]

OP Please let me know if you go with a steel braided line, I'd like to get them too & let me know what size if you find out...:]

[speedlyte]

OP Please let me know if you go with a steel braided line, I'd like to get them too & let me know what size if you find out...:]

I already received them and my mechanic will install them. Here is what I got. I ordered 4 hoses when I really only needed 1. I can sell you the hose but you'll still need order the 0-fit hose clamps.

from www.summitracing.com:
Quantity / Part number / Description
1 / SUM-230406 / (-4 stainless steel braided hose 6ft)
4 / 900304ERL / Earl's Performance Econ-O-Fit Hose Clamps

[speedlyte]

Doug @ Franken turbo confirmed some of the problems I had. Here is his input.


1. FOD: something fine and gritty is getting into both turbos. So your leak is upstream of the Y-pipe. The material is very small and you wouldn't hear it hitting the turbos, but it's wrecked both CHRAs

2. Oil at the turbine inlets: your exhaust has a lot of oil in it. Does the car smoke? Because if so, refurbished turbos won't help make it stop.


I was finding a trace of oil in the y-pipe and diverter valves so I know the turbo was leaking a little bit. The y-pipe could use a cleaning on the inside as its rather dirty. But I don't know what got into the y-pip or before it. I've never ran the car without the filter. Although I'm going to replace it as a precaution and clean out the charge pipes and y-pipe.

For those concerned with Franken turbos quality I do believe there were definitely too many variables to determine it was the fault of turbo failure. I would honestly buy another set if I needed to but with $300 rebuild cost. Thats exactly what I'm having done. Thanks again Doug.

[speedlyte]

So Status update. I recieved my replacement engine with 80k on it from Bryan @ Audis4parts.

[speedlyte]

The two engines side by side old and new. 144k and 80k.

[speedlyte]

Upgraded the actuator end pieces since this was part of the reason for my turbo failure. Stainless steel lines.





Those interested in performing the stainless steel line upgrade. I highly recommend as 10+ year old car the lines need to be changed and those lines are very expensive if you buy the whole pipe from audi. Here is the info on parts.

from www.summitracing.com:
Quantity / Part number / Description
1 / SUM-230406 / (-4 stainless steel braided hose 6ft)
4 / 900304ERL / Earl's Performance Econ-O-Fit Hose Clamps