Independent Tuning B8 S4 GIAC Chip. Can you let us know when it is available?

[myth7676]

GIAC is currently wrapping up their software for the the B8 S4. Can you guys at Independent Tuning let us know when you have all the tools ready to perform the flashing? Thanks.

[EXRS4]

Read that thread was going to go with Revo but I'm liking GIAC as well. I have no interest on the increased bearing wear of adding a pulley at this time. My preference is Tune, Intake and suspension and be happy.

[Tanner]

Nice....

[tomh009]

It looks good but it's not just a tune - it includes the AWE intake as well so it's not quite apples to apples. And why does the stock run not drop off before the redline?

There are some unanswered questions ... see all the fun here:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...h-on-CA-91-oct

[Deep Sea S4]

Read that thread was going to go with Revo but I'm liking GIAC as well. I have no interest on the increased bearing wear of adding a pulley at this time. My preference is Tune, Intake and suspension and be happy.

First I have heard about increased bearing wear. Has there been talk about this? Or are you just suggesting that it must wear faster if its spinning faster?

[Tanner]

It looks good but it's not just a tune - it includes the AWE intake as well so it's not quite apples to apples. And why does the stock run not drop off before the redline?

There are some unanswered questions ... see all the fun here:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...h-on-CA-91-oct

Yeah the posts on audizine and quattroworld has gone all over the place of people saying this and that. Though say without an intake, drop 10hp, it's still a pretty nice increase in torque over stock.

[myth7676]

Read that thread was going to go with Revo but I'm liking GIAC as well.

I was going to go w/ REVO as well, but the local dealer here in TO keeps postponing, so at this point I think I'm going to go with GIAC since I had a very good experience w/ them on my A4.

[EXRS4]

First I have heard about increased bearing wear. Has there been talk about this? Or are you just suggesting that it must wear faster if its spinning faster?

With a smaller pulley and belt there will be increased drag on the nose of the blower which will increase, stress on the bearing and cause more heat (all bad for any FI car). While not huge, over time it will shorten the life of the blower and adding ECM tuning closer to the edge, the overall result just adds to everything that could go wrong. A pulley must also be installed exactly right with very accurate alignment or belts get shredded quickly. Not saying its an immenent problem but I think the APR tune will reduce engine life more than GIAC or Revo which keep the components stock. This of course is my personal feelings but I have seen many disasters with blowers in the Mustang and F-Body world.

If you can get the same or similar results by doing less, why add comlication to the mix?

[EXRS4]

I was going to go w/ REVO as well, but the local dealer here in TO keeps postponing, so at this point I think I'm going to go with GIAC since I had a very good experience w/ them on my A4.

I'm still open to both tuners at this time, winter makes it easy to wait and watch. After all the research I've done in the last month, including talking to quite a few tuners I've narrowed it down to these two. Talking to the respective tuners is what made me decide in the end, I've tuned cars before and they were the most forthcoming and reasonable.

[myth7676]

If you can get the same or similar results by doing less, why add comlication to the mix?

From what I could see until now, this seems to be APR's philosophy:
1. Release a lesser tune at first
2. Talk people into buying that w/ extra hardware you'll get more power
3. Assess the market and produce the hardware if there is demand
4. Release software version "2.0" that will take advantage of the hardware

In the end more revenue for APR ...

I saw in another thread that a REVO chipped car w/ nothing else on it was very close to an APR v 2.0 w/ pulley. Draw your conclusions ...

[myth7676]

...I've tuned cars before and they were the most forthcoming and reasonable.

I can't speak for REVO, as I have not used them before, but I totally agree w/ you about GIAC.

[EXRS4]

I thought you guys might find this interesting as part of a tuning discussion. When discussions talk about pulleys and boost, its good to understand how our blowers work. I know this speaks to Cayenne and Tourareg but the principles are very applicable as they continually compare to the B8 S4.

The Cayenne S and Touareg Hybrid have the same basic engine as the S4 and also employ the same Eaton TVS R1320 supercharger. The link below breaks down the blowe'rs operation which if you read and listen to closely will give you a very clear understanding of what tuners actually play with, on our cars.

http://www.evwaudi.com/2010/07/cayenne-touareg-hybridsupercharger-upgrade-chip-tune/

The video in this link also shows the blower disassembled, and how it works (at the end he mentions corvette development)

A quote from this piece, more or less justifys my resistance to pulley upgrades. I think they will indeed wear out these parts

The pulley is small to begin with so it would be a challenge to make it much smaller. Eaton makes the TVS r1320 supercharger that is on the hybrid and S4 engine and does not make smaller pulleys for it. Each supercharger is designed to operate most efficiently within a performance envelope (if you chart effiency on a graph it forms a “box”, really more of a blob) and going outside of the envelope is inefficient. Physically, the supercharger might be able to make up to 20 psi but it’s ecu limited to about 11.6 psi (0.8 bar). Any extra is recycled back to the supercharger through a bypass valve. ECU changes can close this valve and direct all the air to the engine. The reason the bypass valve is often open is to complement the design envelope of the supercharger with the engine performance for both high and low end power. Below is a video showing the insides of the supercharger showing the bypass valve.

I can see how ECU tuning makes such a difference, it really does control boost, bleed off and blower efficiency. It would be nice to have a truly independent comparison of real power, as the article also points out the B8 is seriously underrated from the factory:

The engine is rated at 333 hp but does it really make that much?

In the hybrid applications, maybe. Many dyno tests have shown that in the Audi S4, this engine actually makes around 360 hp! Why do they downrate the engine? I don’t know but it’s a common trend. Manufacturers almost never uprate their engines because it can result in lawsuits and car buybacks for false advertising and consumer protection. Most engines make about whatever they are rated at. A few engines, like the BMW 335i N54 engine or this Audi S4 engine, have consistently tested at higher power levels, which rules out a cheater ”tuner special” for car magazine testing.

Good tech info non-the-less

[ahcow]

Definitely interested in any tune that I can do locally without shipping ECU... Would prefer APR or GIAC. *waits for updates*

[tomh009]

Yeah the posts on audizine and quattroworld has gone all over the place of people saying this and that. Though say without an intake, drop 10hp, it's still a pretty nice increase in torque over stock.

Yeah ... this is the current end result:

Nice....

I'm hoping for real info from the tuners themselves instead of random claims by assorted fanbois and sycophants ...

[Tanner]

LOL, dyno chart got deleted. Guess he got tired with all of the posts.

[ahcow]

GIAC just said Pfaff is ready to go with the tools and stuff. Anyone ask IT if they have the tools?

[myth7676]

GIAC just said Pfaff is ready to go with the tools and stuff. Anyone ask IT if they have the tools?

I gave them a call today and waiting a call back - will update ...

[turbobaby]

Anybody know how much this will cost in Canadian dollars? Either from Pfaff or Independent.

[AK*]

i want to go with GIAC, i just dont want to go to pfaff.

[ahcow]

I want to go with APR but I don't want to ship my ECU. Next best thing is GIAC or REVO, as they can be done locally. With you on not wanting to go to Pfaff...

[EXRS4]

I like both GIAC and Revo but am leaning towards Revo now. I really like the Injen intake and may order up another Miltek exhaust to finish everything off. I have a friend who owns a bunch of Meineke's in London and Guelph who offered to personally install them for me one afternoon. I love saving the labour charges.

Since I have no storage space I'll likely just dump the stock parts. Downtown Audi had no problems services my old RS4 with it's mods under warranty so I'm not concerned about saving parts.

[AK*]

I want to go with APR but I don't want to ship my ECU. Next best thing is GIAC or REVO, as they can be done locally. With you on not wanting to go to Pfaff...

The name pfaff tuning scares me! Haven't had the best experience with pfaff.. to say the LEAST!

[tomh009]

I want to go with APR but I don't want to ship my ECU. Next best thing is GIAC or REVO, as they can be done locally. With you on not wanting to go to Pfaff...

APR has now released their 2.0 tune, and they're saying that they'll provide the flashing tools to the dealers at the distributor conference at the end of this month.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...T-ECU-Upgrades!!

They didn't release a stage 1 dyno chart yet, but it's supposed to be a 20-30 hp (and 20-30 ft-lb) improvement over the original version.

[B8MGS4]

I gave them a call today and waiting a call back - will update ...

Any update on this, please?

[ahcow]

APR has now released their 2.0 tune, and they're saying that they'll provide the flashing tools to the dealers at the distributor conference at the end of this month.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...T-ECU-Upgrades!!

They didn't release a stage 1 dyno chart yet, but it's supposed to be a 20-30 hp (and 20-30 ft-lb) improvement over the original version.

Thanks...with all the new chips out lately, can't really keep up with what's happening. I will wait for APR then! Which one are you going with?

[tomh009]

Thanks...with all the new chips out lately, can't really keep up with what's happening. I will wait for APR then! Which one are you going with?

Personally I'm thinking APR at this point, though I'd really like all three tuners to publish clean stage 1 charts so one could compare apples to apples.

Not sure the APR will be the absolute highest power, but (1) I have confidence in their tunes based on my two A4s; (2) I prefer the cruise control stalk for program switching rather than having a dongle of some kind floating about somewhere in the car; and (3) I can get the tune done at H2Sport, my preferred dealer.

GIAC would be the second on my list; at this point I'm not feeling as comfortable in Revo's brute-force tuning approach. It may well work well, but as an old software guy it just doesn't feel "right" to me.

[BryanR]

Personally I'm thinking APR at this point, though I'd really like all three tuners to publish clean stage 1 charts so one could compare apples to apples.

Not sure the APR will be the absolute highest power, but (1) I have confidence in their tunes based on my two A4s; (2) I prefer the cruise control stalk for program switching rather than having a dongle of some kind floating about somewhere in the car; and (3) I can get the tune done at H2Sport, my preferred dealer.

GIAC would be the second on my list; at this point I'm not feeling as comfortable in Revo's brute-force tuning approach. It may well work well, but as an old software guy it just doesn't feel "right" to me.

meh. imho, dyno charts truly do mean little in the real world. I could toss in the old argument of 'what performs well on the dyno, doesn't always translate well to the street'...blah, blah, blah, we've heard it all before.

my usual suggestion is simply go with the one you feel has the best support locally. it's not like you're going to be lining up at every traffic light with a APR S4 vs GIAC S4

on a side note: if I were an APR customer, I might be a little miffed that the next guy (GIAC) came out with their v1.0 tune that made your APR v1.0 tune look like a cash-grab...

[ahcow]

meh. imho, dyno charts truly do mean little in the real world. I could toss in the old argument of 'what performs well on the dyno, doesn't always translate well to the street'...blah, blah, blah, we've heard it all before.

my usual suggestion is simply go with the one you feel has the best support locally. it's not like you're going to be lining up at every traffic light with a APR S4 vs GIAC S4

on a side note: if I were an APR customer, I might be a little miffed that the next guy (GIAC) came out with their v1.0 tune that made your APR v1.0 tune look like a cash-grab...

I agree dyno are meaningless for the most part. They are not comparable, just guidelines. I would think all the tunes generated the same amount of power because it's just shutting off the bypass (for the most part) and optimizing it.

Depends, I seem to constantly run into other S4's on Yonge Street. Not that I would race or anything.

Well, APR did come out with the tunes months ahead and I think they are giving free upgrades to v.2.0. I decided to wait until the market matures a bit (more options) before choosing and now seems to be the time.

In terms of support locally, other than Stasis, which is a no go for me, none of the other 3 dealers are consider close to me. =\

[myth7676]

Any update on this, please?

No, they have not called back ... I guess they're not interested. I'll go to Pfaff.

[tomh009]

my usual suggestion is simply go with the one you feel has the best support locally. it's not like you're going to be lining up at every traffic light with a APR S4 vs GIAC S4

on a side note: if I were an APR customer, I might be a little miffed that the next guy (GIAC) came out with their v1.0 tune that made your APR v1.0 tune look like a cash-grab...

Agree with your suggestion, Bryan.

As to a cash grab, I think the GIAC/Revo options are maybe 15-20% less expensive. Not a huge difference, and not enough for me to decide based on that alone.

[myth7676]

Appt booked w/ Pfaff for this Thursday. I'll be getting: stock, 91 and 93 + flashloader.

[BryanR]

As to a cash grab, I think the GIAC/Revo options are maybe 15-20% less expensive. Not a huge difference, and not enough for me to decide based on that alone.

no, I was referring to APRs v2.0 now at GIACs v1.0 performance level.

yes, they are now offering the 'new' v2.0 software upgrade for free, but I'm willing to bet your APR reseller is going to at very least charge for labour...

I know, I know, in the end, the person first to market can do and charge whatever they what - that's just business.

[tomh009]

no, I was referring to APRs v2.0 now at GIACs v1.0 performance level.

yes, they are now offering the 'new' v2.0 software upgrade for free, but I'm willing to bet your APR reseller is going to at very least charge for labour...

True ... but on the other hand, many of those original APR 1.0 customer got a year of power out of their ECU tunes, whereas if they had waited for GIAC or Revo they would have been stock for that time.

Kind of like what I keep telling myself for having bought a 42" plasma years ago at (what is today) a ridiculously high price ...

[ahcow]

Appt booked w/ Pfaff for this Thursday. I'll be getting: stock, 91 and 93 + flashloader.

GIAC right? How much is it for the flash and labour?

[myth7676]

GIAC right? How much is it for the flash and labour?

Yes, GIAC. 1400 something + tax.

[tomh009]

Yes, GIAC. 1400 something + tax.

Is that $200+ in labour? And is that typical for the B8 S4 ECU tunes?

[myth7676]

Is that $200+ in labour? And is that typical for the B8 S4 ECU tunes?

Is that $200+ in labour? Yes ~3h in labour - they need to remove the ECU, flash it, put it back, clear codes, etc.

And is that typical for the B8 S4 ECU tunes? REVO seems to be a bit cheaper, but GIAC is inline w/ APR's prices.

[ahcow]

APR is $1,500 USD, who knows what they charge us for it in Canada. Still.. Pfaff =\
H2sport is so damn far too..

[tomh009]

APR is $1,500 USD, who knows what they charge us for it in Canada. Still.. Pfaff =\
H2sport is so damn far too..

Isn't APR now charging prices at par, if I recall correctly?

For me, H2Sport is on the "right" side of the GTA ... but if you live on the east side, it would not be very convenient.

[AK*]

Isn't APR now charging prices at par, if I recall correctly?

For me, H2Sport is on the "right" side of the GTA ... but if you live on the east side, it would not be very convenient.

I would drive all day Long to get my tune done at H2sport. I am confident in their work! Unlike other highly marketed shops that just cover dog poop with whipped cream and charge an arm and a leg to screw up your vehicle and waist your time.

Its too bad that APR dose not have local dealer flashing capabilities yet. I will wait until H2sport can flash my ECU.