"The EA888 has some improvements over previous generations, but there are also serious issues with the PCV system under g load or negative g situations (If you ever track your car). The PCV has the bad habbit of venting large amounts of oil into the intake. That is why APR Motorsport runs our cans on all of their EA888 Race cars (2 GTIs and 2 Mk6 Jettas)."
Let me know if I'm wrong but VW EA888 implementations don't have valve lift technology and it's the reason why I asked my question the way I did regarding low RPM swirl/tumble effect on intake air aiding in keeping the intake valve's clear.
To answer your questions directly - Yes it is not an EA888 engine in our picture posted above, but rather a 3.6 VR6. The point is that all of these direct injection engines 2.0 FSI, TSI, 3.6 VR6, 4.2 V8 etc. will all suffer from their pcv system deposits that have plagued other engines in the past. VW has done vary little to change the effectiveness of their PCV system (some would argue they made it worse with the EA888 revision - ie the poor high and low G performance).
Its just a matter of fact that we don't tear into as many of these EA888 engines at the moment, and when we do (for turbo installs etc) they have had fewer miles on them and therefore less evidence of deposits - we have had one that showed the begining signs of severe deposits at 45k, but much to my chagrin, the valves were cleaned before I could take pictures of it. As time goes on we will certainly have more picture evidence to show.
Based on our testing the TSI engines eject more PCV Gasses than their FSI predecessors, now as time goes on we will begin to see the complications of that, but of course every engine is different, yours may be better or worse than our test cars, every engine has tolerances.
As far as the valve-lift making a difference in helping to clean the valves, that is a possiblity, but I don't see it as being a major factor as its effect would be seen for such a short duration of the engines life. What I can say, is that the PCV systems are Identical to the transverse engines (save for one hose and the connection point to the turbo - the Longitudinal TSI uses the Transverse FSI Cold-side turbo mounting point) so draw what conclusions you can.
To answer your questions directly - Yes it is not an EA888 engine in our picture posted above, but rather a 3.6 VR6. The point is that all of these direct injection engines 2.0 FSI, TSI, 3.6 VR6, 4.2 V8 etc. will all suffer from their pcv system deposits that have plagued other engines in the past. VW has done vary little to change the effectiveness of their PCV system (some would argue they made it worse with the EA888 revision - ie the poor high and low G performance).
Its just a matter of fact that we don't tear into as many of these EA888 engines at the moment, and when we do (for turbo installs etc) they have had fewer miles on them and therefore less evidence of deposits - we have had one that showed the begining signs of severe deposits at 45k, but much to my chagrin, the valves were cleaned before I could take pictures of it. As time goes on we will certainly have more picture evidence to show.
Based on our testing the TSI engines eject more PCV Gasses than their FSI predecessors, now as time goes on we will begin to see the complications of that, but of course every engine is different, yours may be better or worse than our test cars, every engine has tolerances.
As far as the valve-lift making a difference in helping to clean the valves, that is a possiblity, but I don't see it as being a major factor as its effect would be seen for such a short duration of the engines life. What I can say, is that the PCV systems are Identical to the transverse engines (save for one hose and the connection point to the turbo - the Longitudinal TSI uses the Transverse FSI Cold-side turbo mounting point) so draw what conclusions you can.
I apologize if I am dense here, but would you mind describing who (type of driver, miles, etc) would benefit the most from it? It is sounding like someone who does a lot of track time/high g's, cornering, etc. may benefit more than those who just use their 2.0T as a daily driver. I know you mentioned above that one engine around 45k started showing deposits, but where would you say the cutoff is for when it starts to get "bad"?
Countryboy - The level of the can is something that you would have to keep an eye on - as when it is full it can draw those condensed vapors (water and oil) back into the intake. In our testing on the TSI engine, it has take between 3000-8000 miles to fill the can depending on the engine (every one is different) and the conditions. We recommend at a minimum checking and draining the can at every oil change (we hope you guys do 5k oil changes :)). If the can is full it would most likely present itself as smoking at idle as it draws that mixture into the engine.
Thanks for responding to all of my questions. I wouldn't be one to install something like this and not service it. I was wanting a typical service recommendation and what issues a full can would cause, which you provided. As for the price, it appears a little high but I've always been an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound cure kind of guy. If I can spend $500 up front to help prevent several thousand on intake cleanings in the future, I'm ahead. Plus, piece of mind is worth a lot to me. When I take delivery, it will be my DD and with my current commute, I will be racking up about 30K miles/year. It appears to be a high quality product and is one I am seriously considering.
2012 Glacier White A4 Prestige 6MT, Sport Package, S line Plus, Debadged
Joe - thanks for the information. It's this type of info sharing among members and between members and vendors that I've come to appreciate here at audizine.
It's fairly obvious that this is a high quality kit - and DavidB8's install/review I think speaks to that. I want the kit - for the potential valve buildup prevention and also to catch the oil I've seen in the turbo outlet piping/intercooler. It's just that due to the price, I'm trying to weigh the potential benefits vs the cost - and your inputs here help. Thanks again.
For Joe or anyone...
How much is involved in removing the intake manifold? What seals/gaskets are needed, overall difficulty, etc ?
I'm very tempted to pull it and look at/take pictures of my valves (if it can be done in a couple of hours in the garage one weekend and a few bucks of gaskets/etc). I'd really like to get a first hand datapoint on this - mostly for myself, but also to benefit the community. I've tried one of those cheaper borescopes, but just can't get it snaked into the right location from the IAT sensor hole, or through the throttle body. Thought at one point I wasn't going to be able to get it out... :)
I'm at about 24k miles after 2.75 years now - most drives are on the order of 7 miles to/from work.
Hey, I would imagine that engine oil, distance driven daily, fuel type, modifications, all affect deposit buildup in TFSI heads.
The fact that the intake system is subjected to un-burned vapors and oil mist and other compounds, would suggest that some PCV or crankase venting would be at least helpful?
Black B8 A4 Avant S-Line Prestige Package, Tiptronic 8 speed, V1, Vogtland Coilovers, APR 91 & 93 ECU Upgrade, VMR RS4 Reps, and more mods to come!
Looking forward to your findings....and hopefully you can see it with your own eyes and not go by what the shop tells you.
Well here you go guys. The valves were cleaned today and they weren't all that bad. I have 75K kms on the car and have had a K04 on it since around 20K. I am the second owner and the first owner probably didn't drive the car very hard, I on the other hand would characterize myself as an spirited driver. Quite often I am at or close to the red line while driving the highway to/from work. There are no oil problems with the car, I don't ever remember having to top up between oil changes. The changes are mostly done at 5K kms.
Just picked it up today and its raining so haven't had much of a chance to get any impressions. The only thing that I have noticed is it sounds a bit different and does appear to be stronger.
Wow! That is a considerable amount of build up. I have no doubt you feel a power improvement and will probably see a MPG improvement too. I still maintain however that this product, while amazing and well made, is overpriced for this audience based on feedback.
2009 A4 2.0T Tip, Quartz Gray
APR Stage II|APR Quad Turboback|APR Carbino|H&R Street Coils|H&R 24mm Rear Sway|EC Alu Kreutz|EC HFI Pipe|Stoptech F&R Rotors|Stoptech Street Pad Fronts & Posi Quiet Rears
3 Spoke OEM S-Line Wheel w/ Paddles|RS4 Blackout Replica Grille|Hoen HD Yellow Fogs|Cool White Interior LEDs|CF Di-Noc Trim|VAGd|Pirelli P-Zero Neros
OK guys enough price bashing.. I didn't get my kit for free you know... Maybe I paid more than most will if and when the next cheaper unit gets released by someone else but I have no buyers remorse.
I've thought about it a lot since I got the kit knowing a cheaper version will be out one day. The way I see it.. There are H&R Coil Overs and there are KW Coil Overs. Can both drop your car.. Yes.. Is one a higher quality... Yes... Do members buy both.. Yes.. Are both sets happy?.. Well for the most part. When I did the exahust on my bike I went titanium. Could I have got the exact same thing in steel a lot cheaper.. Yep.. Same performance but I paid for a higher level item.
I see people spend $300 on switches or $600 to reduce sway. Thing is we don't put as much value into something that we can't feel or show off. If someone came out with a kit $200 cheaper would I regret it? Nope.. I know I got value for the money I spent. It would be different if I got a sold a $200 kit for this price. Will you see the same value in a $300 kit? probably as you will get what you pay for. I got what I paid for. My hoses may be better my fittings more exact. But I got value for my money. You will get value for your money as well.
At the end of the day get value for your money (sense a theme?). If this product is out of your price range so be it. Sit tight I know someone else has heard your plee for a less expensive solution. I get the frustration.. The more expensive one came first and this is something a lot of people want.
If I had the ability to make suggestions for a future kit though.. Release valve on the bottom of the can for installtions that have the room to drain from them. Stronger boost tap and maybe some boost tap hose. All in all though I'm happy with the kit.
Mods:Votex spoiler, tint, Clear Bra, S4 replicas, Audi winter and trunk mat,mud flaps, Dipstick, oil pan heater, KW V2's, AWE Dual Exhaust, Votex valance, AWE FMIC, Eurocode IC pipe, PIAA fog lights,Vag Com, APR Stage 2, E-Codes, trunk mount emergency triangle, LED plate bulbs, Audi compressor and tire repair kit, RS4 Pedal set, Power Folding Mirrors, S4 steering wheel, heated rear seats, ski pass through....... www.audienthusiasts.com
My main concern is weather or not this thing works, not the price so much. $500 is money well spent if it works well. If it doesn't work then they could offer it for $1 and it would be a waste of money. Weather or not an OCC can works well typically has more to do with the design of the engine and how much blow by there is, where the can is located (further from heat sources = vapors condense more easily), and how effectively the can design condenses out vapors. Our puny little engine affords lots of space in the engine bay so BFI located the can away from heat sources which is why you are seeing so much water in the can when they empty it. That is a good thing because if it is somewhere hot, the vapors will barely condense and most will make it through the can anyway. But the only way to see how well the system works is to show the carbon deposits on new or newly cleaned valves and then show them again after some duration with the OCC in use.
In another 6 months somebody will have done this and we'll have our answer. If it actually works I'll immediately go out and clean my valves/buy a BFI OCC.
I am going to order one, for peace of mind if nothing else. I just crossed 5k miles, so would assume should still be pretty clean. Question is, should the valves be cleaned prior to getting it in? Thanks!
Thanks for the before and after pics, englishbay. It's hard to do without dedicating an entire day to be around so you aren't holding the whole process up.
What is your typical commute like? Is it stop and go or open highway cruising?
2012 Glacier White A4 Prestige 6MT, Sport Package, S line Plus, Debadged
I am going to order one, for peace of mind if nothing else. I just crossed 5k miles, so would assume should still be pretty clean. Question is, should the valves be cleaned prior to getting it in? Thanks!
I Was wondering the same thing but kind of figured it out. The intake provides positive pressure going into the intake not the other way. So if I had my valves done later it wont back feed into the can. Therefore waiting to put the can on is only going to increase the deposits on the valves. My conclusion was no harm in installing it right away.
My only recommendation for the kit was to change out the boost tap if your using it. You may not have the issue I did but the small plastic part snapped. I was hoping to find a replacement locally but given my location I'm out of luck. Anyways I let BFI know about the issue I had and I hope they choose to upgrade the one part. Anyway a little research found that the part in brass is less than a couple of bucks at a good hardware store. If your not using the boost tap your good to go since it comes with a nice metal cap off bolt.
Mods:Votex spoiler, tint, Clear Bra, S4 replicas, Audi winter and trunk mat,mud flaps, Dipstick, oil pan heater, KW V2's, AWE Dual Exhaust, Votex valance, AWE FMIC, Eurocode IC pipe, PIAA fog lights,Vag Com, APR Stage 2, E-Codes, trunk mount emergency triangle, LED plate bulbs, Audi compressor and tire repair kit, RS4 Pedal set, Power Folding Mirrors, S4 steering wheel, heated rear seats, ski pass through....... www.audienthusiasts.com
I Was wondering the same thing but kind of figured it out. The intake provides positive pressure going into the intake not the other way. So if I had my valves done later it wont back feed into the can. Therefore waiting to put the can on is only going to increase the deposits on the valves. My conclusion was no harm in installing it right away.
My only recommendation for the kit was to change out the boost tap if your using it. You may not have the issue I did but the small plastic part snapped. I was hoping to find a replacement locally but given my location I'm out of luck. Anyways I let BFI know about the issue I had and I hope they choose to upgrade the one part. Anyway a little research found that the part in brass is less than a couple of bucks at a good hardware store. If your not using the boost tap your good to go since it comes with a nice metal cap off bolt.
Thanks for the feed back and extra thought. Not currently using the boost tap, so hopefully will be ok as is and will keep in mind if I do get a boost tap.
I am going to order one, for peace of mind if nothing else. I just crossed 5k miles, so would assume should still be pretty clean.
I'm considering ordering one as well. I'm having to add .5 to 1 quart of oil between my 5,000 mile oil changes and I'd like to know how much of that is going through the PCV system into the intake & burned vs. around the rings...
Now I just need a big tax refund to pay for all the things my car "needs" :)
My only recommendation for the kit was to change out the boost tap if your using it. Anyways I let BFI know about the issue I had and I hope they choose to upgrade the one part.
Yes I spoke with David about his concerns about the boost tap, and I pointed out to him that we use the 42 draft designs tap (we felt it a better solution to use theirs than try to make a competing product for the sake of being different - we do however hard anodize them black). They include the plastic boost tap, which we have on run on all of our cars without issue, but after going over it we have decided to include a brass tap with the kit.
All the kits sold from now forward will include the brass tap - if you have an older kit and would like a brass tap please contact me and I can send you one.
Yes I spoke with David about his concerns about the boost tap, and I pointed out to him that we use the 42 draft designs tap (we felt it a better solution to use theirs than try to make a competing product for the sake of being different - we do however hard anodize them black). They include the plastic boost tap, which we have on run on all of our cars without issue, but after going over it we have decided to include a brass tap with the kit.
All the kits sold from now forward will include the brass tap - if you have an older kit and would like a brass tap please contact me and I can send you one.
I'm glad you guys made a good change. BTW, you cannot anodize plastic. Anodization is a metal based process only. I suspect you were using a ceramic paint to coat them or such, yes?
2009 A4 2.0T Tip, Quartz Gray
APR Stage II|APR Quad Turboback|APR Carbino|H&R Street Coils|H&R 24mm Rear Sway|EC Alu Kreutz|EC HFI Pipe|Stoptech F&R Rotors|Stoptech Street Pad Fronts & Posi Quiet Rears
3 Spoke OEM S-Line Wheel w/ Paddles|RS4 Blackout Replica Grille|Hoen HD Yellow Fogs|Cool White Interior LEDs|CF Di-Noc Trim|VAGd|Pirelli P-Zero Neros
I think he means the rest of the tap is anodized. It's just the screw in tap thats plastic. The actual mount is aluminum and the blocking plug is metal as well. Only the attachment for the boost hose is plastic. Or should I say was.
EDIT: Glad you guys made the change. It may only be one in a hundred that has the issue I did but it was the only weak link I seen the entire kit. I still need to do something about mine but at least future owners will be all set. I may just block mine off until I get south then replace mine. I can live without a boost gauge for the time being. With only 3 weeks left here getting one mailed here in time would just be to close.
Mods:Votex spoiler, tint, Clear Bra, S4 replicas, Audi winter and trunk mat,mud flaps, Dipstick, oil pan heater, KW V2's, AWE Dual Exhaust, Votex valance, AWE FMIC, Eurocode IC pipe, PIAA fog lights,Vag Com, APR Stage 2, E-Codes, trunk mount emergency triangle, LED plate bulbs, Audi compressor and tire repair kit, RS4 Pedal set, Power Folding Mirrors, S4 steering wheel, heated rear seats, ski pass through....... www.audienthusiasts.com
I think he means the rest of the tap is anodized. It's just the screw in tap thats plastic. The actual mount is aluminum and the blocking plug is metal as well. Only the attachment for the boost hose is plastic. Or should I say was.
EDIT: Glad you guys made the change. It may only be one in a hundred that has the issue I did but it was the only weak link I seen the entire kit. I still need to do something about mine but at least future owners will be all set. I may just block mine off until I get south then replace mine. I can live without a boost gauge for the time being. With only 3 weeks left here getting one mailed here in time would just be to close.
That makes more sense David. Does it take 3 weeks to get mail in Canada? :)
2009 A4 2.0T Tip, Quartz Gray
APR Stage II|APR Quad Turboback|APR Carbino|H&R Street Coils|H&R 24mm Rear Sway|EC Alu Kreutz|EC HFI Pipe|Stoptech F&R Rotors|Stoptech Street Pad Fronts & Posi Quiet Rears
3 Spoke OEM S-Line Wheel w/ Paddles|RS4 Blackout Replica Grille|Hoen HD Yellow Fogs|Cool White Interior LEDs|CF Di-Noc Trim|VAGd|Pirelli P-Zero Neros
Ordred mine today too...figured $475 (with shipping) was worth me feeling good about it. Do have to say though that BFI has great customer service. Called to check on a couple of things (such as the brass tap that David mentioned) and they were awesome at answering my questions and explaining things. Placed my order at 3 ish and got an email that it was shipped (with the brass tap) today!
Yes I spoke with David about his concerns about the boost tap, and I pointed out to him that we use the 42 draft designs tap (we felt it a better solution to use theirs than try to make a competing product for the sake of being different - we do however hard anodize them black). They include the plastic boost tap, which we have on run on all of our cars without issue, but after going over it we have decided to include a brass tap with the kit.
All the kits sold from now forward will include the brass tap - if you have an older kit and would like a brass tap please contact me and I can send you one.
Love it! Taking in customer feedback and in turn improving products.
On behalf of other potential buyers, thanks David.
Just got mine delivered today...quick shipping...thanks guys! Will try to get it in this weekend, take some pictures and post my initial mpressions (including the ease of install).
Quick question for Black Forest/Joe (or maybe David): the installation guide is thourough and perfectly clear, however I was wondering if there were any higher resolution pictures available for the ones included in the guide? Would be great if there are as it would help me out...
I did pull it out of the box and have to say it is definitely high quality and the componants are very well put together, with everything solid and clean looking. Was willing to pay for the piece of mind if nothing else, but did feel a lot better about the price when I saw/handled the actual parts. Nice work!
Just go to the post with the install I did. All the pictures are there.
Good thinking! Been a long week ha, should have put 2 and 2 together. Thanks for coming through again, much appreciated!
For reference, here is David's install thread: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...X-P?highlight=
Got it installed today. All in all, fairly easy installation overall, but I definitely struggled with getting the adapter out from under the coils! Even shot David a pm at one point for help...suspect is was a problem with my lack of experience more than anything. Basically just have to be willing to put a lot of force into it and have faith you won't break anything. Found David's instructions good, and used his Audizine installation post the most since the pictures were higher resolution. Didn't have 1/2" allen wrench for the drain, but used a Torx 55 bit without any problems as it doesnt have to be super tight.
I was surprised with the amount of oil and junk that was in the lines when I took them out...especially the adapter linkage that attaches right to the intake. Makes me glad I got it (even if just for peace of mind). Felt like everything was designed really well, especially considering the confines. Only thing I felt wasn't quite up to the quality of everything else was the bracket as the parts that sit on the car were not perfectly level. More of a picky thing as it does fit snug though.
I drive about 250 miles a week, so will keep everyone posted with pics/video here in a few weeks or so to see if there is anything in there yet.
Got a little bored after watching my Jayhawks lose so decided to go see what was in the new catch can. These pics are right around 250 miles of driving, about 70% highway, 25% side/city streets, 5% idle. Very little spirited driving. (Not sure if type of driving matters).
If I would have to guess at the consistency of it, I would say around 90% water, 10% oil, but I am NOT an expert at all. (For reference, it looked to have the same consistency as the BFI video on their website). The pictures where I am pointing to the catch can and cup is to show how full it is. Took a picture of a Red Solo Cup (have to capitalize it after Toby Keith's song now ha) since it may be hard to get a feel for the size of the catch can. Seeing this much in there makes me feel better about getting it, but then again, I have no idea how much would have actually gotten caught in the engine/valves.
Top of catch can:
Close shot for consistency:
How full catch can:
Red Solo Cup...:
How full cup:
Of course, the standard disclaimer - sorry for the crappy phone pics!
My one suggestion to the BFI guys is make this drainable without having to remove the hoses etc. I have run catch cans on many cars, and I usually have run a hole in the bottom of the can, with a nipple on it and a hose to a concealed but convenient place to drain it, then at the other end of the hose a petcock. Then, when I want to drain it, I simple open the petcock, and drain the can. worst thing that happens if I leave the petcock open.......can drains out.....and yes I violate smog nazi rules because my crankcase vents to the atmosphere. Since I live here in Fl that won't matter much for registration etc.
Just thought I would share another update, this is after about 850 miles of driving, about 65%/70% highway and rest city. I know a lot of it is water, but definitely glad I got it. This time is was less runny and thicker than before.
Top view of the catch can:
Side to see how much filled up:
Top view of normal red cup: (I think this gives a good view of the thickness/consistency of it)
wow.. is it normal for the catch can to get so full after only 850 miles? or will to begin to filter out less vapor after 'x' amount of time?
I was wondering the same thing...I was thinking that it would be fine to empty it at each oil change or something. Glad I got bored and decided to check it, otherwise would have probably ignored it until I got to 10k miles (at about 6.5k now). Wonder if there is more water in there at certain times of the year? Hope BFI or someone smarter than me chimes in tomorrow ha
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Originally Posted by Joe@blackforest
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