One of the biggest areas of concern for the longevity of your TSI direct injection engine is the long term effects of oil vapor deposition in the intake and valve train. Even though all TSI engines come equipped with a cyclonic oil separator from the factory – time has shown that these separators are not enough – and that the biggest contributor to these vaporized oil deposits on the intake valves and plenum are the gasses emanating from the PCV system. Without additional filtering and maintenance your intake valves could look like this:
QUALITY
We have designed the best Oil Separator on the market for the FSI/TSI platform. Designed to help remove excess oil/water vapor from the intake tract and increase the longevity of your direct injection engine. The Clean Catch Oil Separator will be the only catch can you will ever need to buy.
Made from the highest quality components, these catch cans are built to last a lifetime, and beyond. Designed from the ground up – with the honing of many different iterations of internal baffle design, these cans both look and function as well, or better than any on the market today.
ENGINEERING
Each can employs a specifically designed V-shaped baffle to maximize surface area for increased deposition of condensed vapor, without sacrificing the flow characteristics necessary for the FSI/TSI PCV system to function correctly.
Each design has undergone an extensive long term testing process - in both street and race applications to ensure that each can functions with maximum efficiency, without any loss in performance. Utilizing CNC aluminum components along with aerospace quality hose, connectors and hardware, these cans both function and look like an OEM quality piece.
SIMPLICITY
Installation of the TSI Clean Catch Oil Separator takes just minutes and is designed to allow clearance for the stock engine cover to be retained after install.
Every TSI Clean Catch system comes with a matte powder coated aluminum can, high flow #10 braided and sport-crimped hoses and hose ends, along with in-house designed CNC bent can bracket, as well as a billet intake manifold block off. In addition all aluminum pieces are anodized black for longevity and good looks!
Every Clean Catch system comes with our proprietary VAGPORT connection system, a revolutionary PCV connection system, consisting of custom designed and machined port adapters specific to Volkswagen and Audi applications. Each VAGPORT connector utilizes the same type of quick release connector used by Audi sport and Team Joest on all their competition Le Mans prototype racers.
I went to the Black Forest site and saw the video of the can being emptied. There appears to be a lot of water in the can, but there was oil as well. Oil in the can is better than in the intake. How long did it take for the can to get that full? What is the recommended service interval? Is there any possibility of the can getting full and a large quantity of the oil/water mixture getting dumped into the intake (i.e. steep incline)? I am ignorant concerning catch-cans, please excuse the novice questions.
2012 Glacier White A4 Prestige 6MT, Sport Package, S line Plus, Debadged
I also agree that the price is too high. I was quoted 5 hours to manually clean the intake valves, so wouldn't want to pay that much for prevention.
is a bit off. You pay 5 hours of labor ever 25k miles for carbon cleaning or you pay for the catch can once. Yes, the catch can costs as much as one cleaning, but I will have the car long enough to need at least 2 if not 3-4 cleanings. Plus, if you don't do the cleaning, you can cause other collateral damage, so the cost of one cleaning done as a prevention really saves more than the cost of that cleaning, if some of those carbon chunks go down past the valves.
2011 A4 Avant Meteor Grey/Black, Titanium Package, Prem+ Nav, B&O. Tint, LED license plate lights, LED interior lights, custom sub, lots of VAG updates, APR Stage 1
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You pay 5 hours of labor ever 25k miles for carbon cleaning or you pay for the catch can once. Yes, the catch can costs as much as one cleaning, but I will have the car long enough to need at least 2 if not 3-4 cleanings.
The problem is that it is unlikely that using an OCC = valves stay super clean. Catch cans in general can be fairly ineffective. On my old 335i I found my can (different brand) collected very little over time and my intake valves still got coated even after putting an OCC into the car on day 1. Not saying that the BFI OCC won't be efffective, just that I'd like to see someones valves after 10k miles of using their can after the valves started out clean. For $500 it had better be pretty effective. And in my experience a typical OCC runs around $200-250. BFI is way out of the ballpark at $500. Probably only possible because they are the only game in town currently.
Hopefully BFI will chime in here. Wonder if a group buy around $375-$400 would be a good split between having the only catch can and buying goodwill with a large group of customers and prospective customers?
Has ANYONE (other than the company selling $500 OCC's) inspected a B8 TFSI (valve-lift version) EA888 after reasonable mileage and actually WITNESSED intake valve build-up? Perhaps the new valve lift technoolgy and the resulting low RPM swirl/tumble effect on intake air is aiding in keeping the intake valve's clear. Thoughts ??
Has ANYONE (other than the company selling $500 OCC's) inspected a B8 TFSI (valve-lift version) EA888 after reasonable mileage and actually WITNESSED intake valve build-up? Perhaps the new valve lift technoolgy and the resulting low RPM swirl/tumble effect on intake air is aiding in keeping the intake valve's clear. Thoughts ??
I was wondering the same thing, and I'm assuming no.
Even if there isn't carbon buildup on the valves, there is some disadvantage of that excess oil being in the intake tract, right? There was a fair amount of oil in the lines/intercooler when I put on my Eurocode unit.
Agreed, though - I'd be a buyer at a lower price - $500 is making me hesitate (a lot)...
I went to the Black Forest site and saw the video of the can being emptied. There appears to be a lot of water in the can, but there was oil as well. Oil in the can is better than in the intake. How long did it take for the can to get that full? What is the recommended service interval? Is there any possibility of the can getting full and a large quantity of the oil/water mixture getting dumped into the intake (i.e. steep incline)? I am ignorant concerning catch-cans, please excuse the novice questions.
Here is the video you're talking about.. This Clean Catch is installed on our shop A5 with about 3000 miles of daily driving.
Keep in mind that most of what is in the can is condensed water vapor that accumulates in the system. What we are trying to remove is the emulsified oil vapor that gives the liquid its peanut butter color.
To address the cost issue - our Clean Catch products are constructed using the aerospace quality hoses, CNC aluminum components and connectors. Using the highest quality components commands a higher retail cost then competitor oil separators.
We have no plans of offering a Group Buy at this time, but we are constantly evaluating our sales objectives on all of the products we offer. In the event a Group Buy is offered, we will definitely make it known to our consumers.
To address the cost issue - our Clean Catch products are constructed using the aerospace quality hoses, CNC aluminum components and connectors. Using the highest quality components commands a higher retail cost then competitor oil separators.
We have no plans of offering a Group Buy at this time, but we are constantly evaluating our sales objectives on all of the products we offer. In the event a Group Buy is offered, we will definitely make it known to our consumers.
I'll be waiting for a group buy or one from a diff company. The black forest can does look solid, but I think I want one that is not crafted with aerospace quality hoses, just ones that are suffice for automobiles.
Thanks for the response. I am still concerned about a full can dumping into the cylinders. Is this a non-issue? If so, is there valving in the VAGPORT?
2012 Glacier White A4 Prestige 6MT, Sport Package, S line Plus, Debadged
To address the cost issue - our Clean Catch products are constructed using the aerospace quality hoses, CNC aluminum components and connectors. Using the highest quality components commands a higher retail cost then competitor oil separators.
We have no plans of offering a Group Buy at this time, but we are constantly evaluating our sales objectives on all of the products we offer. In the event a Group Buy is offered, we will definitely make it known to our consumers.
I agree your product is amazing and I appreciate your commitment to quality. But what your audience here is telling you is that you overshot your target market perceived value (meaning what we think such a product should cost and would therefore immediately sign up for) and you might consider selling for less. I don't know what your engineering time cost, but I do know that your part cost, even though "aerospace grade", is not equivalent to the $499 you're asking, as someone with a ME degree and extensive background in Aerospace, Consumer Electronics and Manufacturing.
Maybe more folks will find the $499 worth it, but at least those who've spoken here don't. Additionally, you could select non-Aerospace Grade materials to reduce your cost (if you are truly paying aerospace costs vs. nearly equivalent Non-Areospace cost (which is mostly a terminology and set of requirements far above automotive and unnecessary in cars)) to help as well.
Either way...you've found a disconnect between your perceived product value and what your customers value it as and might consider listening vs. being defensive.
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Has ANYONE (other than the company selling $500 OCC's) inspected a B8 TFSI (valve-lift version) EA888 after reasonable mileage and actually WITNESSED intake valve build-up? Perhaps the new valve lift technoolgy and the resulting low RPM swirl/tumble effect on intake air is aiding in keeping the intake valve's clear. Thoughts ??
You guys are scaring me now. I had the BG cleaning done around a month ago and there was alot of black smoke coming out the exhaust, the BG guy apparently said that my car was pretty bad, so will be getting my valves cleaned soon. Will post the results when its completed, hopefully I can get the shop to take some pictures that I will share.
You guys are scaring me now. I had the BG cleaning done around a month ago and there was alot of black smoke coming out the exhaust, the BG guy apparently said that my car was pretty bad, so will be getting my valves cleaned soon. Will post the results when its completed, hopefully I can get the shop to take some pictures that I will share.
Looking forward to your findings....and hopefully you can see it with your own eyes and not go by what the shop tells you.
I agree your product is amazing and I appreciate your commitment to quality. But what your audience here is telling you is that you overshot your target market perceived value (meaning what we think such a product should cost and would therefore immediately sign up for) and you might consider selling for less. I don't know what your engineering time cost, but I do know that your part cost, even though "aerospace grade", is not equivalent to the $499 you're asking, as someone with a ME degree and extensive background in Aerospace, Consumer Electronics and Manufacturing.
Maybe more folks will find the $499 worth it, but at least those who've spoken here don't. Additionally, you could select non-Aerospace Grade materials to reduce your cost (if you are truly paying aerospace costs vs. nearly equivalent Non-Areospace cost (which is mostly a terminology and set of requirements far above automotive and unnecessary in cars)) to help as well.
Either way...you've found a disconnect between your perceived product value and what your customers value it as and might consider listening vs. being defensive.
I agree with everything you've said here, and it's kind of frustrating that consumers have to constantly mention this to companies. Pricing is one of the most important aspects of any business and people really need to pay more attention to pricing ranges, and consequently, to customer service. When you do a commercial, your feedback is few and far between. When you post an item on a forum, you're immediately reaching your target market, but you're also opening yourself up for immediate feedback and criticism, which is also a GREAT measure on how a company cares about their customers (their responses). Customers want to feel more than just dollar signs, and reacting to customer demand is the best way to keep a customer happy and increase loyalty.
I'm definitely on the bandwagon of different price range. I don't disagree on the quality, at all, but given the nature of this technology, there is not that much perceived difference in functionality from a less expensive product.
When you post an item on a forum, you're immediately reaching your target market, but you're also opening yourself up for immediate feedback and criticism, which is also a GREAT measure on how a company cares about their customers (their responses). Customers want to feel more than just dollar signs, and reacting to customer demand is the best way to keep a customer happy and increase loyalty.
Guys, I'm not at all convinced that BFI is watching this thread...
I E-mailed them and told them several people on this thread were interested in a group buy, gave them the link, and asked if they were considering a group buy.
In the E-mail response they said they had posted to this thread. A follow up to that E-mail has gone unanswered...so just saying they might not be hearing the comments - esp the ones after their last post.
Guys, I'm not at all convinced that BFI is watching this thread...
I E-mailed them and told them several people on this thread were interested in a group buy, gave them the link, and asked if they were considering a group buy.
In the E-mail response they said they had posted to this thread. A follow up to that E-mail has gone unanswered...so just saying they might not be hearing the comments - esp the ones after their last post.
I guess they make too much money not to listen. Can you imagine their customer service after the sale? Just give it a minute "made in China" with not so aerospace quality material will hit Ebay pretty soon ;)
I guess they make too much money not to listen. Can you imagine their customer service after the sale?
I was just trying to say that if people want BFI to hear these comments - they should know that I don't see much evidence of them actively participating in this forum/thread. They perhaps should consider alternative contact methods : Email and/or phone, etc.
Just saying BFI doesn't appear to be nearly as active here as some of the other forum sponsors - so one shouldn't necessarily expect to post in a thread and get their feedback...
Many larger forum sponsors have dedicated (or at least partially dedicated) resources specifically to monitor forums and answer questions/concerns. BFI is probably busy doing work, engineering products, providing service to local customers and answering direct phone calls etc. I'm sure they'll make their way back here eventually to comment further if they feel they need to.
They've already left this message....
"To address the cost issue - our Clean Catch products are constructed using the aerospace quality hoses, CNC aluminum components and connectors. Using the highest quality components commands a higher retail cost then competitor oil separators.
We have no plans of offering a Group Buy at this time, but we are constantly evaluating our sales objectives on all of the products we offer. In the event a Group Buy is offered, we will definitely make it known to our consumers."
Alright guys, there are a few themes going on here, so I will try to tackle them one at a time.
Jim - Yes we are watching this thread, but in our companies history, we have never run a group-buy, so we haven't decided if we would do one for this product. If we did the price difference wouldn't be dramatic - it would be a 10-15% difference off of the retail price. We are running a 10% off sale in our store right now however:
Countryboy - The level of the can is something that you would have to keep an eye on - as when it is full it can draw those condensed vapors (water and oil) back into the intake. In our testing on the TSI engine, it has take between 3000-8000 miles to fill the can depending on the engine (every one is different) and the conditions. We recommend at a minimum checking and draining the can at every oil change (we hope you guys do 5k oil changes :)). If the can is full it would most likely present itself as smoking at idle as it draws that mixture into the engine.
And the big issue:
PRICE
I understand you guys would like a less expensive option. In reality we all would - if I could sell these setups for $100 I would, but that just isnt realistic. I can understand with the perceived value of the system and similar functioning products for other platforms being less expensive causing some of you pause when you see the price of the kit. But there are a couple of points I would like to make sure everyone understands.
1. I know we have stressed this alot - the cost of the kit is related to the components used. The majority of the excess cost of the kit is directly related to the type of hose and connections used. Braided nylon race hose is among the most expensive available fluid hose available, and along with the fittings and adapters for that hose and the Vagport fittings we have developed - that accounts for $200+ of the cost of the kit.
2. We could possibly make a version of the kit that would utilize standard rubber hoses that would significantly reduce the cost involved, but there are issues involved with that type of hose and where it needs to connect. Our current system would not work with rubber hose at the turbo connection, as that would certainly fail over time due to the heat involved. Long story short, it would require more development time to get something that would work.
At the end of the day, we do appreciate your comments - it helps us see where to focus and what needs to be changed. That being said, simply asking for a group buy isn't going to magically change the price significantly. I understand the price shock, but we are not drastically marking up these items and trying to convince you that they are more expensive than they really are. These components are simply expensive. If it is more than you are willing to spend, I can understand that, this kit is not for you. If you want a solution that uses race quality components, that is both attractive, functional, and easy to install then this might be the right solution.
I know that's alot of words, but we are open to suggestions, and Pete (Black Forest) does check these threads everyday so we won't leave you hanging.
Jim - Yes we are watching this thread, but in our companies history, we have never run a group-buy, so we haven't decided if we would do one for this product.
...
Pete (Black Forest) does check these threads everyday so we won't leave you hanging.
Fair enough - I got the wrong impression.
Looking back at what I posted, It might not be clear, but I wasn't trying to concentrate on group buy and/or pricing - but there were a fair number of questions that I thought you would have chimed in on to clarify your products benefits/etc.
You commented on the video aspect of countryboy's post, but not the rest, didn't respond to the comments/questions by cory_can or dan_q... That, and the fact that your only response in this thread came after I E-mailed sales at blackforrest made me think this was not actively being monitored. Wasn't trying to be critical, just wanted people to know that BFI might not be actively watching.
And to be honest, I think that I was most expecting you to respond to the post that the pictured engine is not an EA888. Now that I look again, I realize this was over in the A5 forum post, and I see that you did respond to MonzaA5's first post (but not his 2nd). (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-Oil-Separator) My mistake.
But given your response over there - if we don't experience side load/negative g operation much (track) - what is the relative importance of a catch can for the EA888 2.0T we have in our A4's?
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Originally Posted by Highlander1010
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