NOTORIOUS VR's Stock 2.7T TiAL S605 Build

[jibberjive]

Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of upgrading the springs, or if one is not upgrading the springs, then not having to disassemble at all, just plop them on.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

yeah I don't be upgrading the springs with the stock exhaust valves, it seems that is a no-no for sure which can cause failure.

Again for the rev limit I am going to set/keep I doubt it would be doing me any good to upgrade.

I did find a set of heads locally though, so that is good news.

[Don Supreme]

Well I can't really say for sure about the failure rate of the stock sodium filled exhaust valves, but you rarely hear of failures in stock heads so why would it be any different in the 2.8 heads if my revlimit stays the same at 7200 rpm?

That's my thinking anyway.


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They failed on Guruman's first 28rs setup..

[SleeperAvant]

I hear the 2013 R35 GTR is getting sodium-filled valves. Just sayin'

[NOTORIOUS VR]

They failed on Guruman's first 28rs setup..

He had uprated springs on the stock sodium valves

[TweetsS4Estate]

He had uprated springs on the stock sodium valves

I ran upgraded springs on stock valves.. If you want to keep it sock, just keep it simple. You will never want to spin it past 7k anyways... E85 will help it come in faster with more timing. You will love it! ... Assuming that's what you're doing..

[NOTORIOUS VR]

I ran upgraded springs on stock valves.. If you want to keep it sock, just keep it simple. You will never want to spin it past 7k anyways... E85 will help it come in faster with more timing. You will love it! ... Assuming that's what you're doing..

I will one day run E85, it's just not available up here without pulling a mission so it's not on the priority list yet.

Simple is the name of the game for sure.

slight porting on the 2.8 heads (more just cleaning then porting), transfer exhaust valves and springs from 2.7 heads, new lifters and valve stem seals, lap the valves into the existing seats and that is it.

Rev limit will stay as it is now @ 7200 rpm (maybe go to 7300 RPM is need be for shifting, etc).

[TweetsS4Estate]

I don't think you will want to spin it to 7300.. honestly. Even now, look at your logs, you run out of steam after 6700. I'd shift at 7k

[jibberjive]

I hear the 2013 R35 GTR is getting sodium-filled valves. Just sayin'

I"m not talking about the technology, rather hearing of specific instances with Audi sodium filled valves.

[Max@034]

Alright boys and girls... time to start collecting parts...

The shopping list:

X ATQ/AHA heads
- Rods
- ER or AMD SMICs
- RS4 Airbox (top)
- RS4 Y-pipe (maybe, might just have one made out of aluminum instead)
- Extra IM for modding (porting and increased plenum volume)
- 3" DPs to new exhaust system (either dual 3" or single 3.5", still undecided)
- 2.0T coil conversion
- 710N DV's
- V8 rear brake upgrade parts
- HPX MAF and housing

Make sure you hit me up Sascha. About the ER's too.

Also, having now disassembled a bunch of 2.7 and 2.8L heads, they've had the EXACT same valves. I've yet to see this so-called difference, and I think you are doing way to much work to just swap over to stock valves. Inconel aren't very expensive in the long run, and if you are swapping valves, you'll probably need to redo the guides anyways.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

I don't think you will want to spin it to 7300.. honestly. Even now, look at your logs, you run out of steam after 6700. I'd shift at 7k

I would take my current logs with a grain of salt...

Make sure you hit me up Sascha. About the ER's too.

Also, having now disassembled a bunch of 2.7 and 2.8L heads, they've had the EXACT same valves. I've yet to see this so-called difference, and I think you are doing way to much work to just swap over to stock valves. Inconel aren't very expensive in the long run, and if you are swapping valves, you'll probably need to redo the guides anyways.

For sure I will Max.

As for the valves, I am almost certain they are a different part no. in ETKA.. I will have to look again though to be sure.

[Max@034]

I would take my current logs with a grain of salt...



For sure I will Max.

As for the valves, I am almost certain they are a different part no. in ETKA.. I will have to look again though to be sure.

It is a different part number in ETKA, but not in physical construction from what I've seen. Like your logs, take what I say with a grain of salt; Audi is famous for changing production runs mid model year without telling a single soul. But we've disassembled a fair amount and they've been identical in their construction, material, etc. There are also more then a few instances of folks running the stock 2.8L valves without issue on big turbo cars.

However, I think it is time for me to cut a 2.7L valve in half, and cut a 2.8L valve in half, to finally put this to rest!

You only need 12 exhaust valves, inconel are like $30 or less each.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

It is a different part number in ETKA, but not in physical construction from what I've seen. Like your logs, take what I say with a grain of salt; Audi is famous for changing production runs mid model year without telling a single soul. But we've disassembled a fair amount and they've been identical in their construction, material, etc. There are also more then a few instances of folks running the stock 2.8L valves without issue on big turbo cars.

However, I think it is time for me to cut a 2.7L valve in half, and cut a 2.8L valve in half, to finally put this to rest!

You only need 12 exhaust valves, inconel are like $30 or less each.

That would be a very interesting test Max..

I also don't see what the whole hoopla is about with the "sodium filled" valves... look @ how many VR6's are boosted on stock hardware not to mention countless other European cars that were originally NA that are boosted with stock parts. You're right I might just leave the valves in provided they're not bent (the heads are coming from an accident car).

[Issam@INA]

I'll keep that in mind, but I am trying to souce the heads locally first as shipping the heads will be pretty expensive on it's own. AMC has a set of heads FS at this very time, but like said shipping costs

Rods are not on the list because I think the bottom end is strong enough as it is.

Not building the heads wither, just going to do a slight port job and refresh all the seals, replace the lifters and drop in the 2.7 head exhaust valves.

AMC heads are the chinese replica units .
Danny has some 2.8 heads as well and I have a pair here if you want. Let me know if you need any help.

[Mantis]

I honestly didn't know that there were replica heads available.

[Issam@INA]

I honestly didn't know that there were replica heads available.

AMC is a Spanish company that manufactures OEM replacement heads for alot of different brands (not sure if its the same AMC Sascha is talking about) but when you get the box it says "made in spain" but thats the box... ;)
the heads are manufactured in China (and you can see them plaguing ebay).

Your best bet to ensure a good head is obviously to look @ the casting for the made in germany stamp. AMC heads wont have a stamp on the heads - just the OEM part # (for identification purposes).

[jibberjive]

You learn something new everyday. The AMC he's talking about is forum member AMC, I'm pretty sure.

I've got some 2.7 and 2.8 valves, maybe next time I'm at the shop I'll dremel some in half ha.

But yeah, that's basically what I was saying, taking the heads completely apart just to put other stock hardware that isn't necessarily any better seems like wasted effort IMO. If you do want to take them apart, go a tiny bit big (aftermarket exhaust valves) or go to your grandmother's house.

[Issam@INA]

OEM valvespring & retainers accompanied with intake valves are great
just change the exhaust valves really.

[fatezero]

There is no difference between the 2.8 exhaust valves and the 2.7. You will be 100% fine Sascha, without a doubt! I know people running 600+hp on bone stock original 2.8 heads without any issues...for years now

[NOTORIOUS VR]

thanks Adam, good to know that you're in agreement with Max...

So then now I just have to hope all the valves are good in the heads!

[TweetsS4Estate]

I guess you will see what I'm talking about when you put it together. Good luck with it all!

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Just FYI, my FMIC setup with custom piping is for sale... everything you need to put the FMIC on your car is included.

PM me for info, will be posting in the classifieds soon.

[Cadiburns]

ERs or AMDs?

[AudiA4_20T]

If you do upgraded exhaust valves, do ferrea and not SUPERTECH inconel. A bunch of 1.8T guys have learned this all too well

[NOTORIOUS VR]

ERs or AMDs?

ER's

If you do upgraded exhaust valves, do ferrea and not SUPERTECH inconel. A bunch of 1.8T guys have learned this all too well

Probably won't though, stock will do just fine for my 7200-300 rpm limit.


Sent from my thingamabob over the internetz....

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Just FYI, my FMIC setup with custom piping is for sale... everything you need to put the FMIC on your car is included.

PM me for info, will be posting in the classifieds soon.

scratch that FMIC is SOLD

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Oh HAI!

Thanks to Max...

[AudiSportB5S4]

Sick! Wash out the metal shavings

[NOTORIOUS VR]

I'll make sure they're spick and span inside and out.

Sent from... you don't even wanna know.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

For future updates look here: http://schnell-engineering.com/blog/

[Jason:addict]

There is no difference between the 2.8 exhaust valves and the 2.7. You will be 100% fine Sascha, without a doubt! I know people running 600+hp on bone stock original 2.8 heads without any issues...for years now

Just for the record guys while both are sodium filled the 2.7 valves have a lower keeper groove location which preloads the spring more at installed height. This is done because there is pressure in the exhaust manifold on the turbo set-up.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Just for the record guys while both are sodium filled the 2.7 valves have a lower keeper groove location which preloads the spring more at installed height. This is done because there is pressure in the exhaust manifold on the turbo set-up.

good info Jason, thanks...

so in your opinion it is still worth while to swap in 2.7T ex. valves to the 2.8 heads?

[Jason:addict]

good info Jason, thanks...

so in your opinion it is still worth while to swap in 2.7T ex. valves to the 2.8 heads?

I use Supertech solid stainless exhaust valves - they're cheap and won't break. Stock intakes.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

I use Supertech solid stainless exhaust valves - they're cheap and won't break. Stock intakes.

Alright I'll keep that in mind

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Today I finally got around to installing my ER's that I got from Max... after a few people posting that they're such a pain in the ass to install I was expecting more, but they went in without a hitch.. little to no mods needed and got it the old FMIC out and the ER's in, in under 3 hours.

I'll be honest.. I was expecting more... people talking about pressure drop and all that jazz, but I noticed no increase in boost at all after switching to ER's.... I'll have to wait until the weather gets warmer to take some logs that I can compare to but from what I can tell there is no difference between my FMIC setup and now the ER's except that the car is even more stealth now with no pipes showing through the grills.

Would I do it again, go from FMIC to ER's? Probably not unless I see a huge difference in temps which I also doubt I will see.

Anyway on to some pics...



ER's...


Buddy stopped by w/ his 996T:


How I mounted the dryer...




ER's installed...



Driver side...


Pass. side...


Clearance between dryer and IC... lots of room...

[fatezero]

You are not going to see a huge difference in temps if its just one run in the winter. Where the ER's shine is multiple back to back runs and IAT's in the summer. It takes a lot of heat to get them heat soaked

[NOTORIOUS VR]

For sure... But many were also always saying how much the fmic has pressure drop and the ER's have very little. So I was expecting to see at least something in terms of increase in boost. But nada.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

[Mikse]

Just for the record guys while both are sodium filled the 2.7 valves have a lower keeper groove location which preloads the spring more at installed height. This is done because there is pressure in the exhaust manifold on the turbo set-up.

Soooo many times has it been mentioned they are "identical" and yet they arent... Here's pics just for the record how much they differ. Rosten exhaust valve vs N/A (from 2.4 head but the same as 2.8)

N/A exhaust valve

Rosten Stainless (same dimension as S4)


Now the question: Exhaust springs are also different (intake springs are the same) according to part numbers from ETKA but how they are different and can they take the extra pressure and heat?

[jibberjive]

For sure... But many were also always saying how much the fmic has pressure drop and the ER's have very little. So I was expecting to see at least something in terms of increase in boost. But nada.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

The MAP sensor is post intercooler, so the 'increased boost' would be the decreased pressure drop across the IC's, meaning that the turbos don't have to work so hard for a given requested boost.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

The MAP sensor is post intercooler, so the 'increased boost' would be the decreased pressure drop across the IC's, meaning that the turbos don't have to work so hard for a given requested boost.

I'm running a fixed DC on the N75... and it's reference is from the compressor covers of the turbos. I should have seen more boost if there was a larger pressure drop