YET another 5-speed swap - in progress

[walky_talky20]

Started progress on my 5-speed swap today. I have so far pulled the engine and transmission. It feels good to get started and I can hardly wait to be rowing my own gears. Also, the fact that I'll be driving my parents' minivan to work in the meantime makes me anxious to get this done, lol.

I pulled the engine and transmission together as I have a lot of extra work I want to do at the same time. I took some photos of the progress, but this is not meant to be a DIY. I just wanted to share my project with others.

Firstly, I would like to thank Biketsai for his awesome writeup which has motivated me to do this. Truly an inspiration.

Here we go with the pics:

Drove it in, for the last time in "D":


On the lift, bumper off:


Core support off:


Up in the air for driveshaft, trans mounts, axles, shifter cable, bottom cat nut, and some starter wiring.
I was snapping the pics, so I didn't make into the shots. But that is my twin brother, so you can use your imagination. (I'm the better looking twin)


Ready to be plucked:


Little bit:


Little bit more:


And it's out:


Empty bay:


Pile of plastic parts (so many) and the front end:


Success:


^Yes, that is some kind of mouse nest on top of my front diff. The horror.

So that was all the progress for today. We started around 2pm, and got it out around 6:30. Working slow and steady. We didn't drop or loosen the subframe, didn't drop any control arms, and didn't touch the exhaust, other than unbolt the cat from the turbo. Everything went pretty smoothly. I discharged the A/C previously so I could just remove the A/C condenser instead of having it in the way, but the line connections would not let go, so I left it alone. It wasn't so annoying anyway. Also, I didn't realize my tranny cooler lines were quite so rusty. One of them would not budge at all. The nut wouldn't spin around the line. I ended up just cutting the line. That was a good moment, as there was no going back after that. 5MT or nothing.

Next thing to do is separate the engine and trans. Hopefully I'll get some time in the next few days.

[Papa_Dios]

Nice. Isn't that auto trans a heavy pig?? You have all the parts yet?

[walky_talky20]

Nice. Isn't that auto trans a heavy pig?? You have all the parts yet?

Yes, it's disgustingly heavy and ridiculously huge. Although, pulling it this way was a breeze. I think doing it this way was easier than just pulling the engine.

I have everything but just a few parts. Some forum members are helping me with a clutch and the hydraulic line. Still have to shake down my junkyard for the shifter trim, but that isn't vital. Other than that I'm all set as far as the swap parts. The rest of the stuff I need is just easy-to-get maintenance stuff, seals and things. Getting all that stuff through our parts supplier. I'm doing a t-belt, water pump, bunch of seals, cooling flange and associated stuff, some PCV hoses, all the vac lines, pulling the pan and checking/replacing the pickup screen. Lots of crap. Car will be down for a few weeks I'm thinking. I'd rather do everything at once.

[Shhmaudi]

Good werk!

[ThatA4T]

any progress?

[brettj20]

Nice work, hope to see it runing soon.

[Papa_Dios]

Oh yea definitely a good idea. Im going to do my TB as well to get it all out of the way. Looking good glad to see you making progress.

[DRock3d]

Two walkys is better than one haha nice job man, I don't think I quite have the balls to do something like this. Nice job!

[biketsai]

Sweet start! Glad you have finally pulled the trigger, its a scary yet anxious feeling once you realize there isn't any going back. It seems like pulling the whole setup is easier, Im just too worried about disconnecting all of that jazz and getting it back together. Keep us updated!

Chris

[EErie B6]

Awesome! I'm glad to see this finally under way.

You have been all about this for a long time, I cant imagine how excited you are to be doing it.

Congratulations Walky!!

[walky_talky20]

Thanks for the comments guys. They are encouraging.

Took some pics of some of my parts tonight. I will include the prices that I paid for them and what car they each came off of:

5-Speed Transmission (code ASZ) from a 1991 Audi Coupe Quattro: $212
This is the magical piece that makes this swap cheap. You can read more about this decision in my previous thread:
5-Speed Swap - Technical Questions




2 front axles from a 2000 Audi A4 2.8 Quattro 5-Speed (with bolts!): $55 for the pair
1 Drive shaft from same car: $60


Shifter box from a 2001 Audi A4 1.8T Quattro 5-Speed, including knob and boot: $50


Transmission mount brackets from a 2000 VW Passat V6 5-speed (with bolts!): $30 each

[EErie B6]

your shop has a very nice wood floor.


At the rate you are moving, I expect this done by lunch time tomorrow.

[walky_talky20]

^Haha. I didn't even do anything tonight but take pictures! Give me at least until sundown, eh?



Swap progress meter says otherwise
|
V

[biketsai]

Nice budget build, what are the plans for the clutch?

[Racerx220]

good luck with the swap walky. i expected you to be older for some reason lol

[walky_talky20]

good luck with the swap walky. i expected you to be older for some reason lol

^I'm guess I'll take that as a compliment.

For the clutch: I got a B6 OEM flywheel and pressure plate: FREE (Thanks John!). I ghetto-resurfaced both and will be using a new SACHS unsprung clutch disc: $70

Yes, I'm THAT cheap. I'm really trying to keep the 5-speed swap part of this project under $500. I figure I can always upgrade the clutch in the future. And it is kind of fun trying to see how low I can keep the cost.

[Polski]

Awsome work Walky!
I'm sad that you didn't go with the carbon drive shaft thought.
Goodluck!

[BlkBullitt]

Looks good! If you need any other random parts let me know (I've got a 98 5-Speed 1.8t parts car sitting in the garage).

[chodemaster]

good luck with the swap walky. i expected you to be older for some reason lol

haha I was thinking the same thing

[Lazer Viking]

good work.. you are missing an emissions sticker though

[biketsai]

Awsome work Walky!
I'm sad that you didn't go with the carbon drive shaft thought.
Goodluck!

Doesnt matter anyways, that thing is heavier than the non-CF DS.

[revolution337]

good work.. you are missing an emissions sticker though

non-emissions county possibly?

[walky_talky20]

non-emissions county possibly?

^That's correct. AKA "The middle of nowhere", lol. Most all of the surrounding counties have visual and gas cap checks, though. I'm sure that is coming eventually.

[Lazer Viking]

so much hate... lancaster county was non/emissions till about 5 years ago

[EErie B6]

good luck with the swap walky. i expected you to be older for some reason lol

Some are born with a silver spoon in their mouth... They found a socket set in Walky's.

[steffie905]

Nice work

[walky_talky20]

Got some more parts in so I took some pics.

New Clutch disc, SACHS SD80189:


Used B6 Dual Mass flywheel and pressure plate, freshly ghetto-resurfaced:


And some other parts, which aren't directly related to the swap:

Bag O' Injector o-rings:


Rear Main Seal w/flange:


Front Crank Seal:


I spent today working out my Pilot Bearing "Situation". And a situation it was! As you can see, the B6 Flywheel (and likewise the ATW and AWM 1.8T flywheels) do not have a simple 43mm hole in the center. It tapers down to a 29mm hole due to the integrated center-bearing for the Dual-Mass operation.



Therefore, I do not have the luxury of using the special-order bearing like Biketsai did (which is by far, the best documented fix for this issue). I am working on as-yet undocumented alternative pilot bearing solution. I don't want to share anymore until I verify that is going to work 100%. Hopefully I'll have details tomorrow.

[biketsai]

Im actually really interested to see what you do for this FW situation. On another swap I did over winter break, my friend was given the same looking FW that had the taper, we figure we couldnt use the Zorkos bearing and bang that piece out! We ended up just getting a new FW.

[M-Hood]

Couldn't you use that same bearing but leave it sticking out slightly? You should have some head room between the surface and the clutch disk itself seeing that your using an offset unsprung disk.

Just have to make sure that the bearing isn't touching the tapered part of the lower piece of the flywheel.

[walky_talky20]

Got some more parts in:

2 Cam seals (PTFE variety):


Oil Cooler O-ring:


Coolant Flange (w/o-ring to block):


O-ring for Coolant Feed line (aka: the o-ring that's never included with the coolant flange, but should be):


Transmission Input Shaft seal:


Took some more stuff apart. I was taking the t-belt stuff apart and to my absolute HORROR, I found a loose bolt behind the cover!


I couldn't believe it. The belt had been changed, Aud genuine belt, pump, and tensioner equipment. Also Only 2 (two!) of the 3 water pump bolts were there!. (No, the loose bolt was not a water pump bolt. It was one of the missing cover bolts I assume). It seems like really sloppy dealership work to me.

It looks like it had caused some minor damage to belt in 2 places:




Took some PCV crap off. Nasty, nasty things:



Got the engine on a stand now, with all the parts nestled neatly in my allotted cubby:



Also, I have details on the pilot bearing situation. Read on>>

[walky_talky20]

Couldn't you use that same bearing but leave it sticking out slightly? You should have some head room between the surface and the clutch disk itself seeing that your using an offset unsprung disk.

Just have to make sure that the bearing isn't touching the tapered part of the lower piece of the flywheel.

The photo above is actually showing the backside of the flywheel. Where it fits over the crank, it has the normal 43mm hole. But on the other side (the clutch disc side), there is only a 29mm hole. So there is no possibility of using a bearing of a 43mm diameter.

So what to do? I believe I've devised a workable solution. I should say that I have not invented this method, but perhaps I can say that I am documenting it. I should reference this thread for the hint:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3125000

Looking at the Automatic crankshaft, you can see there is already a hole there.


I was initially thinking of just pressing in a 1.8T pilot bearing into that hole. Turns out that hole is almost exactly the same size as the input shaft itself - no dice. So my next thought was to see if that center section was removeable. A quick check in ETKA shows that is indeed the case: the bushing has a separate part number. A slide hammer made quick work at that, thanks AutoZone!


That leaves me with this, now somewhat larger hole in the end of the crankshaft to work with:


Turns out that hole is now too BIG for the 1.8T pilot bearing...GREAT. So now I'm thinking about getting the Torque Converter bushing machined to receive the pilot bearing, when I realize that I may have a DEPTH problem as well...DOUBLE GREAT. Luckily, I had a grenaded Jetta 2.0 liter block sitting in the shop with which to compare. It is from an automatic car, but on the transverse cars, all the cranks are like our manual ones:


Yes, seriously grenaded. Reman cylinder head dropped a valve. Apparently it happened somewhere near the rev limiter!


Anywhoo, the part I am interested in:


I was able to ascertain that the leading edge of the pilot bearing in a manual car starts about a 10mm positive offset from the bolt-up surface. The "snout" sticks out about 13mm, and the pilot bearing is usually pressed in about 3mm into the snout (there is a beveled inner edge there). So I knew what I needed to create, but how? On my Auto crank, the snout does not protrude. If a bearing was installed in a similar way, it would end up at about a 0 mm offset from the bolt-up surface. This is a problem. A bigger problem is I have no idea what bearing I'm going to use. So off to the interwebs, and the above mentioned vortex thread, on the 10th post someone mentions that they had used a V6 pilot bearing.

At this moment I am racing around the shop trying to locate an Audi V6 pilot bearing. We just happened to have one, brand new! How lucky is that? After a quick comparison, the OD is a perfect match to the TC bushing: 24mm. Check it out.
Left to Right: 1.8T pilot bearing, 2.8 pilot bearing, 1.8T torque converter bushing.
For posterity - the corresponding part numbers are, left to right: 056105313C, 034105313A, 058105171A:



So that's settled, but what about the depth problem. Even looking closely at the V6 bearing the problem is even worse. The bearing rollers are way in the back of the housing. In fact, they are in the back half of the housing:


I know realized what that post on vortex was referring to when it said "cut it down a bit". I quickly grabbed a cut off wheel and went to work:




By cutting the back cap off, I could now install it backwards. After some intense measuring I decided I would have to install the bearing only part way. Slightly more than halfway is what I came up with:



I paint marked the input shaft to where I though the bearing would end up at the final install depth and did a test fit of the transmission (no flywheel or clutch at this point. My measurements were right on the money and it looks like this will work very nicely. This is a relief and I can now sleep at night knowing that the swap progress can continue.

Thoughts?

[walky_talky20]

Comments? Anyone? Bueller?

I feel like my (perhaps overdetailed and excessively over-photographed) updates may cause some to stop reading. That is ok with me . Just wanted to get some valued feedback on my bearing solution.

[Papa_Dios]

I like your ingenuity. Is this trans similar in mounting and length as the 01A?

[revolution337]

that pilot bearing looks like it is still sticking out pretty far. but you said you did a test fit, so I guess you're good.

[M-Hood]

I like your ingenuity. Is this trans similar in mounting and length as the 01A?

It is a 01A, just out of the older model Audi.

[Papa_Dios]

Ah good to know.

[walky_talky20]

that pilot bearing looks like it is still sticking out pretty far. but you said you did a test fit, so I guess you're good.

Yeah, I know. I measured it at least 5 times. And I still did the test fit. There is a nice window on the top of the tranny to see the input shaft and bearing, so I could verify the depth was correct. On the manual crankshafts, the 1.8T pilot bearing actually sits completely forward of the bolt-up surface. This is due to the "snout" being so long. So that is why it sits forward like that on the auto crankshaft.

[biketsai]

Looks like it should work!

[SleeperAvant]

Nice progress!

[walky_talky20]

Thanks for the comments, guys.

Painted my Intake Manifold tonight:

Cleaned and sanded just a bit:


And primed, and painted. Semi-Gloss Black:


I think it turned out pretty swell. Still a bit glossy in the photo as it was still drying. I'm doing the Valve Cover tomorrow evening.