The Great Maestro 7 Tuning Suite Thread

[MmmBoost]

Since more and more people are jumping on the Maestro wagon, it seems as though we need a dedicated thread here on Audizine in order to discuss and help each other out.

So Maestro users.......and potential Maestro users..........this is now your forum. Please feel free to ask questions, post findings, etc so everyone can read, learn, and help each other out.



As well as posting questions, info, etc here.....I would also recommend signing up on the Eurodyne forum. There is a lot of good information there regarding features and trouble-shooting.

I am also MmmBoost there... http://eurodyne.ca/forum/


Some VERY informative threads....

Maestro maps, axes, units, descriptions
HOWTO: Scale the Flowmeter map for your custom MAF housing
For you: An Excel spreadsheet useful for tuning <===== an AMAZING tool create by our very own, bananas


public service announcement
If you are trying to reset an entire map to zero corrections.........DO NOT set the entire map equal to "1" You must set it to at least 1.0001. Setting maps to 1.0000 will disable that map in the calculations and may have a very negative consequences.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

We definitely need this to be a sticky.

[champion]

Here's everything already summed up http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...Maestro+Tuning

[MmmBoost]

I'll answer this in here...

Chris did you say your running a .31 constant on the 630's ?

What battery voltage comp setting? I'm running .291 on the 630's

At the moment I'm running Siemens Deka IV 630cc's, but I'll be switching to Genesis 550cc's because they have the factory-correct dual cone spray pattern as well as they are more easily controllable at lower pulse width.


I was running a .031-ish constant, however, since rev 1.9.1 or 1.9,2 of Maestro, Tapp has "adjusted" the way the AMB engine uses/calculates/whatever the injecter constant. I am now running running a constant of .044255.



What do you mean .291? there are 5 Voltages you should have numbers for.

[alpinestar180]

i'm very glad this thread was started because i intend on going with maestro soon. I know i dont have many mods, but i figure its better to buy a system that i can change depending on where i go with my setup than to spend money going back and forth between tuning companies as i mod. plus i like the customizability of maestro. does it come with a preset stock map? and does lemiwinks?

holy shit i didnt realize that maestro was $1000

maybe not.... =)

anywhere to get it cheaper?

[7speed]

Yes it comes with a base map of your choice. There is a lot to learn.

[MmmBoost]

i'm very glad this thread was started because i intend on going with maestro soon. I know i dont have many mods, but i figure its better to buy a system that i can change depending on where i go with my setup than to spend money going back and forth between tuning companies as i mod. plus i like the customizability of maestro. does it come with a preset stock map? and does lemiwinks?

I figured it was time. There are a lot of curious people out there compared to when I went with it. Documentation is VERY minimal so the more help we can offer each other as a community, the better.


When you order the software/tuning suite, you have to read your ECU and send the file in with your mods. You then get a base file back which is written for your injectors and ECU and I believe turbo size (give or take).


It's a decent place to start.....but it's not perfect and needs work to make things run very well. I'm a bit anal though.......so I am constantly tweaking and changing things to make it even better.

[nein-reis]

i'm very glad this thread was started because i intend on going with maestro soon. I know i dont have many mods, but i figure its better to buy a system that i can change depending on where i go with my setup than to spend money going back and forth between tuning companies as i mod. plus i like the customizability of maestro. does it come with a preset stock map? and does lemiwinks?

holy shit i didnt realize that maestro was $1000

maybe not.... =)

anywhere to get it cheaper?

This is not for you, sorry. Its 1000.00 at its cheapest, and thats a bargain for what it delivers. Also, the base map is for big turbo's... its not designed/intended/or working with stock lowly modded cars. Its a great program, but not a magic horsepower finder. If you find yourself spending 5-20K on a motor build turbo build in the future, then it is for you. If not, it will do nothing for you. This is not a system that was made to tune your K03/K04 system, and if you don't realize this... you should honestly stay away ...far away from it.

[MmmBoost]

This is not for you, sorry. Its 1000.00 at its cheapest, and thats a bargain for what it delivers. Also, the base map is for big turbo's... its not designed/intended/or working with stock lowly modded cars. Its a great program, but not a magic horsepower finder. If you find yourself spending 5-20K on a motor build turbo build in the future, then it is for you. If not, it will do nothing for you. This is not a system that was made to tune your K03/K04 system, and if you don't realize this... you should honestly stay away ...far away from it.

jmw241 is having some success using Maestro on his K03 until he gets his BT build done. I give him props for that...... tuning that twitchy little turbo must be a nightmare.


To add to what Tyler said though......if you're not the least bit patient, I would not recommend Maestro.. I just counted tonight......I've been through 123 revisions to my file to experiment with different values and variables to see how they effect things.

Tuning is a bit of a black art. There are no instructions to follow........so once you get it loaded......it's up to you to make it work and you only get out what you put in.

[alpinestar180]

i am probably almost as anal as you, chris... ALMOST (just not nearly as experienced lol) I don't want you guys to think that I am just jumping on the maestro band wagon because it sounds cool. I know i would be spending lots of time tweaking. I am not looking into maestro because i think its the best solution for my k03 (and the K03 is not my end goal), i am looking into it because i plan on doing a build, and i don't want to dump 400-600 dollars (that i know i can save) by getting a flash, when i will want maestro down the road when i do the build. If i get it now and become well versed in its operation, it will be much easier to deal with when i DO finally start my build. Im just thinking in terms of my longer term goals.

I would hate to go APR 1+ and then get a BT setup 6 months later and have to toss the apr software and injectors (or lose money in a resale)

maybe it's just another inevitable expense of owning a b6

[nofearhawk]

I have maestro on my almost completely stock car at the moment, stage 1 file from tapp.

I'm also building a motor in my living room though, so in the meantime I'm just playing around with little things here and there. I wanted the ability to read and clear fault codes, upgradeable, and not have to rely on someone else's schedule to tune/fix/get my car running the way I want.

I will say though, if you don't consider yourself tech/computer savvy, maestro is not for you. There's no instruction manual or anything, you have to rely on past peoples experiences and some insight here and there from tapp.

BTW you can get it for 900 shipped, and USP said they would be willing to sponsor a group buy (check group buy request forum), I couldn't wait around but you can see my thread there.

[SleeperAvant]

great thread, make it sticky! Thanks MmmBoost.

[pape]

Ok I have a question. my friend with his 2003 1.8t A4 has the maestro. he was actualy one of the first ones to get it before it went on sale for the B6's
Now his going to sell the car an put it back to stock. Is there any way I would be able to buy it from him or swap ecu's. I drive a 2002 1.8t A4 both are 5speed

[Dan[FN]6262]

*this needs sticky action

in for when I get connection with my ECU again lol

[dougyfresh]

To add to what Tyler said though......if you're not the least bit patient, I would not recommend Maestro.. I just counted tonight......I've been through 123 revisions to my file to experiment with different values and variables to see how they effect things.

Tuning is a bit of a black art. There are no instructions to follow........so once you get it loaded......it's up to you to make it work and you only get out what you put in.

If you don't have the time to dedicate to tweaking maps but need a custom written file there are tuning sources out there that can do this for you (ASP, Avalon, EPL, etc..). That is what I did because I just do not have the time to tweak things. It would have taken me a few months with the time allotment I have if I were doing it on my own with Maestro. It took ASP less than a week to write and modify my files that are on my ECu. Changes from here are less than a day of dyno and street time. Maestro was also not available when I needed it (1-2 years ago).

[dougyfresh]

Ok I have a question. my friend with his 2003 1.8t A4 has the maestro. he was actualy one of the first ones to get it before it went on sale for the B6's
Now his going to sell the car an put it back to stock. Is there any way I would be able to buy it from him or swap ecu's. I drive a 2002 1.8t A4 both are 5speed

Best to call Eurodyno and talk to Chris directly about this. I am not sure if anything will transfer since the 2002 is a completely different set of base maps. Go straight to the source for answers..

[jmw241]

I'll answer this in here...




At the moment I'm running Siemens Deka IV 630cc's, but I'll be switching to Genesis 550cc's because they have the factory-correct dual cone spray pattern as well as they are more easily controllable at lower pulse width.


I was running a .031-ish constant, however, since rev 1.9.1 or 1.9,2 of Maestro, Tapp has "adjusted" the way the AMB engine uses/calculates/whatever the injecter constant. I am now running running a constant of .044255.



What do you mean .291? there are 5 Voltages you should have numbers for.

I run a .0291 injector constant right now, with the same 630's. So you jumped up from .031 to .044 since the latest update? That's a big jump, what changes have you noticed?

I will update later on with the voltages I'm currently running, I never made any changes to them from the base 630 file.

[MmmBoost]

I run a .0291 injector constant right now, with the same 630's. So you jumped up from .031 to .044 since the latest update? That's a big jump, what changes have you noticed?

I will update later on with the voltages I'm currently running, I never made any changes to them from the base 630 file.

No with the new version my number jumped. It doesn't run any different, just somehow the software calculated it different.

I've been slowly lowering my Minimum Injector Pulsewidth and it seems to be leaning up my idle to where i want it.

[613B6]

I dropped by battery comp table by about 20% and idles like perfect again even with low load. The only ill effects is I'm seeing more o2 correction (positive) than before. Going try half those values on the way home...
i

[jmw241]

jmw241 is having some success using Maestro on his K03 until he gets his BT build done. I give him props for that...... tuning that twitchy little turbo must be a nightmare.


To add to what Tyler said though......if you're not the least bit patient, I would not recommend Maestro.. I just counted tonight......I've been through 123 revisions to my file to experiment with different values and variables to see how they effect things.

Tuning is a bit of a black art. There are no instructions to follow........so once you get it loaded......it's up to you to make it work and you only get out what you put in.

Thanks a lot Chris. You gave me tons of help and it paid off.

It was a bitch, but I enjoied every bit of it, learned tons and had a blast doing so. It does not run perfect, and there is alot left to make this ko3 tune perfect, Im hoping to be gtx-3071 within a week. I had planed on original having a BT on the car 2-3 weeks ago and that's why I stoped making big changes to the ko3 file.

To Anyone that wants to tune their Ko3 with Maestro. First off, im willing to help anyone, give screen shots of my maps ect. But know this, I tuned my ko3 with a big ass fmic. I don't see 21-22 psi until 3k or slightly after that and then it's 22 psi till 4k then it tapers down to 15 psi by 4700 an. 13 by 5200.

Because of how the turbo spools, and spike/tappers off so dramaticly and only over 2k rpms it makes tuning and the driving characteristics of the car a bit rough. Part throttle around 3k took a little while to smooth out, but the fmic made this easier to tune tbh. It's going to be harder to tune on a stock smic because you wi spike sooner, so you will need to really smooth out the boost pid table to account for that.


Also, there are different ways to tune, or different methods. I know that I tweaked the boost pid table alot at first, while both Chris and Chris did not.


All in all it is definitly possible to tune a ko3 with maestro. My biggest fear though is that we will start to see people attempt to tune ko3's with Maestro, when that person has no business doing so. I spent months learning about the basics of hardware first where I had a very solid understanding of how different components of the car function. If you don't understand what an n75 valve works, or what sensors the car uses to calculate desiered a/f, and the list goes on. You need a great understanding of the hardware first IMO, then you need to learn how the software will control that hardware. It's very easy to screw something up, I rememer when I first started tuning, I was adjusting my injector constant, first thing i messed with. I stead of giving the car a 3% injector constant I gave it 30%, obviously when I went to go start the car she did not fire up, wicked wicked rich.

Keep in mind if you asked me what an cam chain tensioner, map sensor, or 02 sensor was 12 months ago I would have been confused.

Now I'm pulling cams, and tuning my car......you can lean this stuff, it's just a matter of how much time/dedication you give it.

[Audi Skate Snow]

This definitely needs to be updated on the first post daily as well. Trying to read 30+ pages on the maestro on vortex is ridiculous.

[lave3k]

The Battery Voltage Compensation table is in milliseconds, while the injector constant is in ms/%.

The battery voltage compensation table is the best place to adjust for injector latency, while you need to insure that your minimum injector pulse width is sufficiently low with injectors that large, its not a great way to adjust idle fuel.

I'd recommend reading your idle and partial fuel trims after driving the car 20+ mins between tweaks:

Take your idle % correction and multiply it by your injector constant % * ms/% => ms This is the fixed ms time you need to add or subtract from the battery voltage compensation to correct for injector latency. At first just do it across the whole range.

Take your partial load % correction and simply scale your injector constant by it. If you repeat this process a few times you should be able to bring your idle and partial fueling into agreement. Don't over react to small changes as you can go back and forth chasing nothing and the fuel trims will always be shifting a little. Once you have worked this out, then move on to injector correction tables to fix specific problems at certain rpms.

[jmw241]

The Battery Voltage Compensation table is in milliseconds, while the injector constant is in ms/%.

The battery voltage compensation table is the best place to adjust for injector latency, while you need to insure that your minimum injector pulse width is sufficiently low with injectors that large, its not a great way to adjust idle fuel.

I'd recommend reading your idle and partial fuel trims after driving the car 20+ mins between tweaks:

Take your idle % correction and multiply it by your injector constant % * ms/% => ms This is the fixed ms time you need to add or subtract from the battery voltage compensation to correct for injector latency. At first just do it across the whole range.

Take your partial load % correction and simply scale your injector constant by it. If you repeat this process a few times you should be able to bring your idle and partial fueling into agreement. Don't over react to small changes as you can go back and forth chasing nothing and the fuel trims will always be shifting a little. Once you have worked this out, then move on to injector correction tables to fix specific problems at certain rpms.

I don't know who you are, where you came from or what you just said (I'll read into it later when I have time to understand/figure it out)

But rock on! This looks like solid information and is exactly what we need! Thanks bro!

[613B6]

The Battery Voltage Compensation table is in milliseconds, while the injector constant is in ms/%.

The battery voltage compensation table is the best place to adjust for injector latency, while you need to insure that your minimum injector pulse width is sufficiently low with injectors that large, its not a great way to adjust idle fuel.

I'd recommend reading your idle and partial fuel trims after driving the car 20+ mins between tweaks:

Take your idle % correction and multiply it by your injector constant % * ms/% => ms This is the fixed ms time you need to add or subtract from the battery voltage compensation to correct for injector latency. At first just do it across the whole range.

Take your partial load % correction and simply scale your injector constant by it. If you repeat this process a few times you should be able to bring your idle and partial fueling into agreement. Don't over react to small changes as you can go back and forth chasing nothing and the fuel trims will always be shifting a little. Once you have worked this out, then move on to injector correction tables to fix specific problems at certain rpms.

wow great info! thanks!

[dougyfresh]

I don't know who you are, where you came from or what you just said (I'll read into it later when I have time to understand/figure it out)

But rock on! This looks like solid information and is exactly what we need! Thanks bro!

He tunes motronic based ECUs via hex editors and the like (like all other motronic custom tuners.)

[dougyfresh]

My biggest fear though is that we will start to see people attempt to tune ko3's with Maestro, when that person has no business doing so.

Give it time. It'll happen. This is a risk Eurodyne took when releasing this front end. I am sure they are covered legally should someone do blow up their engine due to lack of knowledge when modifying maps and try to press legal action towards Eurodyne.

[bananas]

Here's everything already summed up http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...Maestro+Tuning

let me just say that I've been reading that thread (up until a couple months ago) and there are a lot of misinformed individuals posting there

[MmmBoost]

let me just say that I've been reading that thread (up until a couple months ago) and there are a lot of misinformed individuals posting there

Agreed. I don't even go back there to see if anyone has written anything worthwhile or helpful

[bananas]

The Battery Voltage Compensation table is in milliseconds, while the injector constant is in ms/%.

Hey man, nice to see you in here :) Did you ever get a TunerPro xdf out of WinOLS or post your summary/analysis somewhere?

[lave3k]

Yeah.... I ended up not going the TunerPro route and instead of open sourcing the whole thing I went to the dark side. What can I say don't look at me...I'm a monster!
Anyway I'd like to help out with some summary/how to on here. Have you shared your magical data plotting/sorter sheet? -that thing is fantastic.

[nein-reis]

Ok I have a question. my friend with his 2003 1.8t A4 has the maestro. he was actualy one of the first ones to get it before it went on sale for the B6's
Now his going to sell the car an put it back to stock. Is there any way I would be able to buy it from him or swap ecu's. I drive a 2002 1.8t A4 both are 5speed

Short answer... no. You cant run files from other years of B6 in a 2002 ECU. Ask me how I know? Well, Chris (bananas) and I once made the mistake of loading his 03+ plus file into my 02 ecu and it bricked it. I had to send my ECU to Tapp in Canada to fix my new paper weight back into a working ECU. And you will not be able to run the 02 ECU in your 03 car. I did, but its a different circumstance and a rare dealer happenstance I was able too.

[AudiHere04]

Short answer... no. You cant run files from other years of B6 in a 2002 ECU. Ask me how I know? Well, Chris (bananas) and I once made the mistake of loading his 03+ plus file into my 02 ecu and it bricked it. I had to send my ECU to Tapp in Canada to fix my new paper weight back into a working ECU. And you will not be able to run the 02 ECU in your 03 car. I did, but its a different circumstance and a rare dealer happenstance I was able too.

Isn't the initial read file your stock ecu file or whatever you had pre-maestro?

[nein-reis]

Isn't the initial read file your stock ecu file or whatever you had pre-maestro?

Yes there is, I assume your thinking I should have just loaded that again right? That would of been nice, but when I said it bricked it... it really did. Not only are the files different, they are in different places. So when I flashed the wrong ECU files on it, it moved it all around. Neither Maestro or the car could read it, so it was completely unresponsive to anything.

[nein-reis]

And that brings up another point.... Maestro can eff your shit up if you screw up. There are NO safety rails in place, so if you tune it to lean out like crazy at high RPM unkowingly... it will go ahead and assume you know what you want and do it.... bye motor. So be careful, and always double check your work. Learning by playing works, but can be a disaster.

[Sales@RAI]

And that brings up another point.... Maestro can eff your shit up if you screw up. There are NO safety rails in place, so if you tune it to lean out like crazy at high RPM unkowingly... it will go ahead and assume you know what you want and do it.... bye motor. So be careful, and always double check your work. Learning by playing works, but can be a disaster.

Well because of this I think an external wideband should be standard regardless if you plan on making over 300awhp

[pape]

Short answer... no. You cant run files from other years of B6 in a 2002 ECU. Ask me how I know? Well, Chris (bananas) and I once made the mistake of loading his 03+ plus file into my 02 ecu and it bricked it. I had to send my ECU to Tapp in Canada to fix my new paper weight back into a working ECU. And you will not be able to run the 02 ECU in your 03 car. I did, but its a different circumstance and a rare dealer happenstance I was able too.

Would it be posible if we swapped. ECU's, Cluster's, and immobilizer chips???

[nein-reis]

Would it be posible if we swapped. ECU's, Cluster's, and immobilizer chips???

I cant say... I'm thinking no. I'm not sure if you can swap clusters either... mileage issue?

Also, when I put my new ECU into my car a good friend who worked at a unnamed dealership did a live connect with Audi tech in the shop to recode my cluster to the new ECU... (big reason being I was 2003 3.0 and swapping a 2002 ecu in) to get it all to be happy together.

[Hansi]

And that brings up another point.... Maestro can eff your shit up if you screw up. There are NO safety rails in place, so if you tune it to lean out like crazy at high RPM unkowingly... it will go ahead and assume you know what you want and do it.... bye motor. So be careful, and always double check your work. Learning by playing works, but can be a disaster.

While I do see your point I believe the ME7 has fairly many safeguards against blowing up your motor..
But of course, it can happen, and yes you need to be careful..

[dougyfresh]

While I do see your point I believe the ME7 has fairly many safeguards against blowing up your motor..
But of course, it can happen, and yes you need to be careful..

There are safeguards but this software allows you to make drastic changes to maps. Drastic changes in the wrong direction without the proper knowledge of the ramifications will results in engine failure.

It is inevitable that this will happen. That day will come as Eurodyne sells more and more of these tuning suites.

[Hansi]

There are safeguards but this software allows you to make drastic changes to maps. Drastic changes in the wrong direction without the proper knowledge of the ramifications will results in engine failure.

It is inevitable that this will happen. That day will come as Eurodyne sells more and more of these tuning suites.

I agree, however, I think common sense should stop you from making drastic changes if you don't know what you are doing, hehe..

But enough about that, great thread.. I am sure this is the future, even with that slight chance of blowing something up (if you lack the common sense mentioned)