Audizines Official 60-130 Standing Mile List updated and improved.

[alexverve]

i apologize if I misunderstood but this suggests the opposite is true.

just so we are on the same page, here is what i mean:
air flow for cooling purpose is not as important for a single run, since by the time temps rise, u r done. it will affect secondry runs since air/IC/W/M needed to cool off air. NA engines are less affected, since their intake temps are not effected by Turbos getting hot and raising intake temps.

air flow for ammount of air sucked in for running an engine affects forced induction cars far less then NA cars since u we have vacume cleaners sucking in air. where NA need big Open Air elements with lots of oppening for airflow. on a Dyno, NA will need big fans to provide compatible air flow to get real power it can achieve on the street. we do not.

that is what i mean. yes, big multiple fans are great to reflect real power on a Dyno, but less then u think if u do a quick single pull.
3 vs 4th gear ratio will screw up numbers more. it is bad enough that every Dyno is tuned differently, that runs are done under different temperatures, different flows. adding another variable like gear ratio will make any Dyno chart comparison almost meaningless.

[gearhead1186]

just so we are on the same page, here is what i mean:
air flow for cooling purpose is not as important for a single run, since by the time temps rise, u r done. it will affect secondry runs since air/IC/W/M needed to cool off air. NA engines are less affected, since their intake temps are not effected by Turbos getting hot and raising intake temps.

agreed here.

air flow for ammount of air sucked in for running an engine affects forced induction cars far less then NA cars since u we have vacume cleaners sucking in air. where NA need big Open Air elements with lots of oppening for airflow. on a Dyno, NA will need big fans to provide compatible air flow to get real power it can achieve on the street. we do not.

not sure what your saying here but it doesnt sound accurate.

that is what i mean. yes, big multiple fans are great to reflect real power on a Dyno, but less then u think if u do a quick single pull. 3 vs 4th gear ratio will screw up numbers more. it is bad enough that every Dyno is tuned differently, that runs are done under different temperatures, different flows. adding another variable like gear ratio will make any Dyno chart comparison almost meaningless.

now I really wish I saved the logs from the dyno. im not sure if your talking about a 3rd or 4th gear pull. if your assuming 3rd gear pulls on a load dyno, then yes multiple fans will provide you a very good estimate of what you would be making on the street. if your talking about 4th gear pulls, there is actually more of a difference than you think. end of 4th gear your doing about 130+. I havent been to any dyno or even seen pictures of a dyno cell where they can emulate that kind of airflow. I took 4th gear logs with my car and the IATs and timing was a lot better than the logs I took on my first 4th gear dyno pull.

dyno graphs are by no means the end all but assuming similar conditions they do give you very useful information by eliminating the biggest variable of all.. the driver.

sorry for the tangent... back to 60-130s

[alexverve]

agreed here.



not sure what your saying here but it doesnt sound accurate.



now I really wish I saved the logs from the dyno. im not sure if your talking about a 3rd or 4th gear pull. if your assuming 3rd gear pulls on a load dyno, then yes multiple fans will provide you a very good estimate of what you would be making on the street. if your talking about 4th gear pulls, there is actually more of a difference than you think. end of 4th gear your doing about 130+. I havent been to any dyno or even seen pictures of a dyno cell where they can emulate that kind of airflow. I took 4th gear logs with my car and the IATs and timing was a lot better than the logs I took on my first 4th gear dyno pull.

dyno graphs are by no means the end all but assuming similar conditions they do give you very useful information by eliminating the biggest variable of all.. the driver.

sorry for the tangent... back to 60-130s

yes, sorry for taking it off the topic... last things though.
air flow is needed for 2 things - air volume needed to reach inside the engine into cylinder for detonation and air flow to cool the air going through IC's. we both agreed that for a single run, u do not really need to replicate 120mph air flow to cool off IC's, especially if u use W/M cause there is not enough time for temp to rise enough to hamper the output.

so the only thing that u need to replicate 120 mph air flow is for air that goes inside your engine. lets say that to reach your max power ECU requires 1 cubic inch of air to reach your cylinder at particular moment (call it amount Z). Air that comes through your intake through Air Box/Open air filter is amount X. that variable highly dependent on a speed of a car, since the faster u go, the more air flow goes into air intake. for NA car, final ammount Z can never be more then X. or u run reach and damage engine. so correct air flow is essential on a Dyno to replicate real world 4th gear run. in forced induction car, that is not the case, cause u have X (air from outside) + Y (compressed air from Turbos) = Z (final number in cylinder). now, lets say on the street @120mph X is 0.5 cubic inch. so for NA car, u can tune as much as u want as long as Z = X = 0.5 inch. on Turbo car, u have Y which will supply extra air volume needed (up to a point, depends on a size of Turbo). it does not need speed of airflow from actual 120mph, cause it is forced, meaning sucking in Air. with or without speed. power of suction depends on a RPM of an engine/spool of a Turbine. now, for a street @120 u get 0.5 from intake and 0.5 from Turbo = 1 inch = full power. on a Dyno, even if you X is smaller then 0.5 inch, your Turbo (Tial 770) once spooled creates so much air that it will compensate any volume that u wont get from outside (X). so say u get 0.25 from outside, Turbo will put up another 0.75", for a total of 1" and u will get total power. On the street, extra capacity of Turbo is either recirculated or dumped into atmosphere, but there is always some extra there. safety margin. cause outside conditions varry on weather, ellevation, air flow, etc. so i doubt any tunner tunnes the car for 100% capacity of a Turbo... cause u never know what might happen in real workd, and Turbo will only do 80-90%, then u can screw up an engine. So physically, Turbo will compensate (up to a point) airflow difference from a fan on a Dyno and real airflow @120. that is why talk about not being able to replicate airflow @120mph is not really accurate for Turbo cars. cause they do not depend on it as much as NA cars... Volume of air provided by big Turbines (605/770/GT28/RS6) is so big, and internal volume of 2.7L is so small, that i do not see how that small difference in air volume between fan and 120mph going through tiny intake opening can create a big difference in actual output on a Dyno.
again, i am not saying it is 100% true, but in my mind it is simple physics.
ps: i have my flamesuit on... :-)

[gearhead1186]

yes, sorry for taking it off the topic... last things though.
air flow is needed for 2 things - air volume needed to reach inside the engine into cylinder for detonation and air flow to cool the air going through IC's. we both agreed that for a single run, u do not really need to replicate 120mph air flow to cool off IC's, especially if u use W/M cause there is not enough time for temp to rise enough to hamper the output.

so the only thing that u need to replicate 120 mph air flow is for air that goes inside your engine. lets say that to reach your max power ECU requires 1 cubic inch of air to reach your cylinder at particular moment (call it ammount Z). Air that comes through your intake through Air Box/Open air filter is ammount X. that variable highly dependent on a speed of a car, since the faster u go, the more air flow goes into air intake. for NA car, final ammount Z can never be more then X. or u run reach and damage engine. so correct air flow is essential on a Dyno to replicate real world 4th gear run. in forced induction car, that is not the case, cause u have X (air from outside) + Y (compressed air from Turbos) = Z (final number in cylinder). now, lets say on the street @120mph X is 0.5 cubic inch. so for NA car, u can tune as much as u want as long as Z = X = 0.5 inch. on Turbo car, u have Y which will supply extra air volume needed (up to a point, depends on a size of Turbo). it does not need speed of airflow from actual 120mph, cause it is forced, meaning sucking in Air. with or without speed. power of suction depends on a RPM of an engine/spool of a Turbine. now, for a street @120 u get 0.5 from intake and 0.5 from Turbo = 1 inch = full power. on a Dyno, even if you X is smaller then 0.5 inch, your Turbo (Tial 770) once spooled creates so much air that it will compensate any volume that u wont get from outside (X). so say u get 0.25 from outside, Turbo will put up another 0.75", for a total of 1" and u will get total power. On the street, extra capacity of Turbo is either recirculated or dumped into atmosphere, but there is always some extra there. safety margin. cause outside conditions varry on weather, ellevation, air flow, etc. so i doubt any tunner tunnes the car for 100% capacity of a Turbo... cause u never know what might happen in real workd, and Turbo will only do 80-90%, then u can screw up an engine. So physically, Turbo will compensate (up to a point) airflow difference from a fan on a Dyno and real airflow @120. that is why talk about not being able to replicate airflow @120mph is not really accurate for Turbo cars. cause they do not depend on it as much as NA cars... Volume of air provided by big Turbines (605/770/GT28/RS6) is so big, and internal volume of 2.7L is so small, that i do not see how that small difference in air volume between fan and 120mph going through tiny intake opening can create a big difference in actual output on a Dyno.
again, i am not saying it is 100% true, but in my mind it is simple physics.
ps: i have my flamesuit on... :-)

Dont take this as me being rude or condescending but your "equation" has a lot of holes in it. How atmospheric pressure, density, manifold pressure and "air flow" factor in isnt simple at all and you have some things mixed up. To keep this thread on topic, we can take this discussion to PMs if you'd like.

The original point was that sufficient airflow is needed to keep the ICs from heatsoaking for multiple pulls on a dyno. It has nothing to do with forcing more air into the cylinders.

[Espen W]

Nobody testing 60-130mph and 100-200kmh anymore?
Still salty slush on the roads over here by the North Pole (roads been salted since October), but once they dry up I will get some improved numbers.
Come on, folks.
3rd gear times for 60-80, 60-90 and 60-100mph would be good to see as well. That takes the shifting out of the equation and the pull happens at more legal speeds.

[Audi_S4]

Me 200lbs + Full tank of 98oct

100-150km/h in 3 = 2.9sec
100-200km/h in 4 = 8.8sec

[Espen W]

Me 200lbs + Full tank of 98oct

100-150km/h in 3 = 2.9sec
100-200km/h in 4 = 8.8sec

My best 100-150kmh in 3rd is 2.77s, so your 2.9s is much closer than the 8.8s vs. my 7.6s for the 100-200. The reason is likely that mine likes the added load of 4th gear with over 600nm at the wheels in 4th, vs around 580nm at the wheels in 3rd. Second gear pulls would likely be very close, as my measurements have shown the 2.7T to put down pretty much the same torque at the wheels regardless of 2nd 3rd or 4th gear (when testing on the road). Goes to show that two cars that put down the same graph during a 4th gear dyno pull might differ significantly in the lower gears. Big turbos might look good in 4th, but the difference will be less in the lower gears, especially 1st and 2nd due to lack of load.

[Audi_S4]

My best 100-150kmh in 3rd is 2.77s, so your 2.9s is much closer than the 8.8s vs. my 7.6s for the 100-200. The reason is likely that mine likes the added load of 4th gear with over 600nm at the wheels in 4th, vs around 580nm at the wheels in 3rd. Second gear pulls would likely be very close, as my measurements have shown the 2.7T to put down pretty much the same torque at the wheels regardless of 2nd 3rd or 4th gear (when testing on the road). Goes to show that two cars that put down the same graph during a 4th gear dyno pull might differ significantly in the lower gears. Big turbos might look good in 4th, but the difference will be less in the lower gears, especially 1st and 2nd due to lack of load.

I also chose to lower the boost after 6000rpm to 1.3 bar to not overstress the K04's. I also have 400cell cats fitted . after I go to inspection I'm gonna ditch the cats and if the car finally stops braking stuff I'll prob end of revising the tune and make it 1.45 to redline without cats , so that would prob make it pull a little stronger in the upper rpm's

[Espen W]

I also chose to lower the boost after 6000rpm to 1.3 bar to not overstress the K04's. I also have 400cell cats fitted . after I go to inspection I'm gonna ditch the cats and if the car finally stops braking stuff I'll prob end of revising the tune and make it 1.45 to redline without cats , so that would prob make it pull a little stronger in the upper rpm's

Sounds good. Do you have 100-150kmh or 100-200kmh times before/after RS4 gearbox without other changes?

[Audi_S4]

Sounds good. Do you have 100-150kmh or 100-200kmh times before/after RS4 gearbox without other changes?

Nope, but a member on SRS has the exact same HP figure as me on the MRC dyno with S4 DSY box and he runs exactly the same times... 100-150 doesn't take any benefit of the RS box cause the turbo's are allready making full boost at that rpm

[JPM-Engineering]

I will test some 100-150 tonight .

[Espen W]

Nope, but a member on SRS has the exact same HP figure as me on the MRC dyno with S4 DSY box and he runs exactly the same times... 100-150 doesn't take any benefit of the RS box cause the turbo's are allready making full boost at that rpm

I see. Peak G force will be higher with the RS box during the pull, but the average thrust delivered at the wheels will be the same (as long as both your cars weigh the same). Your car is likely quicker 100-140, but the DSY equipped one quicker on top, as he is close to peak hp then, while you're likely past the hp peak by 140kmh.

Plug in your Vagcom and do some FATS tests. Should be very close to 3 seconds flat, and possibly in the 2.9s.

[JPM-Engineering]

Racelogic test
725 mts o ver sea
3gear from 80 km
100-150 kms 4 flat.
4 gear start at 80 km
100-150 4,1 seg
22 degrees celcius
Regards

[Espen W]

Racelogic test
725 mts o ver sea
3gear from 80 km
100-150 kms 4 flat.
4 gear start at 80 km
100-150 4,1 seg
22 degrees celcius
Regards

Interesting that you are only 0.1s behind in 4th gear. Indicates that it runs out of steam at the upper end of the interval in 3rd. Your 100-200kmh will certainly be quicker using 4th only.
My 4th gear is 0.4s behind 3rd in the 100-150kmh, with 2.77s vs . 3.17s, but 100-200 using 4th only is way ahead of using 3rd and 4th due to the time it takes to shift and the loss of boost.

[Jason:addict]

Notice we got this thread locked up top now - expect full updates with revised instructions in initial post. Both Reid and I will be SME's and the format will be more formal and ONLY include GPS based data. We will also include 1/4 times.

[AudiSportB5S4]

Whoaaaaaa it only took months of Reid crying for this to happen! Haha... Thought he was being punished or something.

We will also include 1/4 times.

I'm less than a few weeks away to see what a true 770 car can do in the 1/4...

[URHank]

Is anybody renting/lending with deposit their vbox? I have a 2800lb 612whp/527wtq urQ that needs a stab at the list.

[jibberjive]

Is anybody renting/lending with deposit their vbox? I have a 2800lb 612whp/527wtq urQ that needs a stab at the list.

Doooo iittttt.

[WMi_S4]

Is anybody renting/lending with deposit their vbox? I have a 2800lb 612whp/527wtq urQ that needs a stab at the list.

PM Reid (Tweetss4Estate), I know he mentioned doing this to me when he got his last year.

[Espen W]

Springtime is really the ideal time for good 60-130mph and 100-200kmh numbers, with dry roads and cold nights.
Roads are finally salt free over here, close to the Arctic, and it was close to freezing last night. Have done some tweaks to reduce boost taper at high rpm, so was expecting some decent times.
Pulled a 4th gear only 100-200kmh in 7.27s, an improvement of 0.37s.
(60-120mph was 6.86s and did a best ever FATS as well: 2.78s)

[Audi_S4]

sweetness! That's a good time, so you'll prob be sub 8sec from 60-130mph

[Espen W]

sweetness! That's a good time, so you'll prob be sub 8sec from 60-130mph

Judging from data from other cars (like the AMD Tial 605 car), my 60-120mph in the 6.8 range would likely mean 60-130 in approx. 8.5-8.7s, assuming I had a higher rev limiter.
Having to shift into 5th at approx 126mph, I would not even get close to that time, as shifting steals tons of time on the I5's.
However, work is being done on FFS (flat foot shifting) for the I5 B4's (launch control already done), so that would probably mean that a 2 shift 60-130 or a 1 shift with a higher rev limiter could be pretty fast.

[jibberjive]

At what RPM in 4th do we hit 130mph on the stock tranny ratio's? Would someone with built heads be able to hit it with a rev limiter of around 8k RPM?

[Espen W]

At what RPM in 4th do we hit 130mph on the stock tranny ratio's? Would someone with built heads be able to hit it with a rev limiter of around 8k RPM?

With 225/45/17 tires, theoretical RPM at 130mph is as follows:
S4 ratio (0.967): 6954rpm
RS4/RS2 ratio (1.032): 7421rpm

Rolling radius will change with load and speed, but the above numbers will be pretty close.

[jibberjive]

So with an 8k rev limit, one should be able to hit 130 mph in 4th with almost any reasonable tire on the S4, right?

[gearhead1186]

So with an 8k rev limit, one should be able to hit 130 mph in 4th with almost any reasonable tire on the S4, right?

[Espen W]

So with an 8k rev limit, one should be able to hit 130 mph in 4th with almost any reasonable tire on the S4, right?

Easily. With stock tire size, and stock 4th gear S4 ratio, theoretical road speed at 8K is 149.5mph.
I seem to remember that Mathias logged 133mph at the stock rev limiter with tires that were very close to stock rolling diameter, so a bone stock S4 should hit 130mph in 4th, unless it was equipped with a RS4 ratio for 4th gear. I suspect some US cars were equipped with RS4 ratio for 4th gear, or a lower rev limiter than the Euro cars, as some US owners seem to hit the limiter before 130mph in their S4's.

[gearhead1186]

Easily. With stock tire size, and stock 4th gear S4 ratio, theoretical road speed at 8K is 149.5mph.
I seem to remember that Mathias logged 133mph at the stock rev limiter with tires that were very close to stock rolling diameter, so a bone stock S4 should hit 130mph in 4th, unless it was equipped with a RS4 ratio for 4th gear. I suspect some US cars were equipped with RS4 ratio for 4th gear, or a lower rev limiter than the Euro cars, as some US owners seem to hit the limiter before 130mph in their S4's.

With stock tire size of ~24.9, stock 4th gear (1.07) and a redline of 8k, Im calculating a max speed of ~135. A TDI 4th (0.97) with all else equal will max out at ~145.

EDIT: RS4 4th is slightly longer at 1.03.

[Evilevo]

With stock tire size of ~24.9, stock 4th gear (1.07) and a redline of 8k, Im calculating a max speed of ~135. A TDI 4th (0.97) with all else equal will max out at ~145.

To my knowledge, the only difference between a US box and RS4 box is the shorter 3rd in the RS4 box. 4th remains the same 1.07.

I'm pretty sure 4th is shorter in the RS4 gearbox. You might be thinking of my trans in which I only replaced 3rd.

[gearhead1186]

I'm pretty sure 4th is shorter in the RS4 gearbox. You might be thinking of my trans in which I only replaced 3rd.

US box RS4 box

3.50 3.50
1.89 1.89
1.23 1.32
1.07 1.03
0.81 0.81
0.68 0.68

Its actually longer but not big enough of a difference to even worth noting IMO. About a 3mph difference.

[Espen W]

US box RS4 box

3.50 3.50
1.89 1.89
1.23 1.32
1.07 1.03
0.81 0.81
0.68 0.68

Its actually longer but not big enough of a difference to even worth noting IMO. About a 3mph difference.

Hmm, that is the first time that I've seen the 1.07 4th gear ratio.
The 0.967 is the one that is quoted the most:
http://www.audiworld.com/model/s4/01/specs.shtml

However, I have had a feeling that the US cars had a shorter 4th than the Euro cars.

[gearhead1186]

Hmm, that is the first time that I've seen the 1.07 4th gear ratio.
The 0.967 is the one that is quoted the most:
http://www.audiworld.com/model/s4/01/specs.shtml

However, I have had a feeling that the US cars had a shorter 4th than the Euro cars.

hmm. I could be wrong. I was going by scotty's stock reman gearbox.

http://www.advancedautomotion.com/pr...roducts_id=132

[bigern45]

ive trapped 124 in 4th, and my rev limiter is set at 7300 iirc. so im sure 135ish one a 8000 limiter would be possible. im not sure about my rpm as i pass the end of the quarter...

[Espen W]

hmm. I could be wrong. I was going by scotty's stock reman gearbox.

http://www.advancedautomotion.com/pr...roducts_id=132

Strange indeed.
Here are some more sources indicating 0.967 4th gear ratio for the US cars as well:
http://ctny.audiworld.com/mark/s4/gears/gear_calc.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_S4

[URHank]

There is a great App on the Droid called "Gear Speed Calculator" that allows you to put in gear ratios to multiple transmissions, indicate where spool occurs, and what redline is. It calculates in Tire size, and spits out a mph per rpm if you want it to.

http://www.appbrain.com/app/gear-spe....gearspeedcalc

[Audi_S4]

214km/h redline with DSY box and 202.4 with FDP box in my car with same rev limiter and 225/40/18 tyres

[gearhead1186]

Hmm, that is the first time that I've seen the 1.07 4th gear ratio.
The 0.967 is the one that is quoted the most:
http://www.audiworld.com/model/s4/01/specs.shtml

However, I have had a feeling that the US cars had a shorter 4th than the Euro cars.

from Scotty...

The RS4 gearing only differs with 3rd gear. Of which it will reduce the rev drop from the 2-3 shift, which helps however it does not address the overall shortness of 1-2 gears.

[Espen W]

RS4 4th gear is 1.032

[Burningcoals]

5.70 60-130 Full weight, pump + meth. Single 4th gear pull.

[kramrs2]

OMG!!!! Congratulations!! Fantastic numbers!