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  1. #1
    Active Member Two Rings
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    New Key and Transponder Chip - Dealer only?

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    So I bought a used A4 from a local used car dealer and there was only one key that came with the car. I went to about 5-6 locksmiths and they all told me different things. I had prices from 65 to 150 dollars for a basic key to be cut and programmed. The dealer I bought the car from said he has a guy that does it for 100 dollars for the key with lock/unlock only. So I bought a key from ebay for 30 dollars with a blank key, new transponder chip and the lock/unlock/panic and trunk release and brought it to the guy that said he would cut and program a regular key for 65 dollars thinking that I would get the key I wanted for about 100 dollars. The locksmith said he couldn't do it because it programmer he has is asking for a 4 digit pin to access the immobilizer that he states the dealer would have. He then showed me how his programmer works and I see he wasn't full of shit to try and scam some more $$$ off me. I figured that it would probably be the same with all other locksmiths so I didn't bother going back to the others. Does anyone know where or how I can get this 4 digit pin cause the Audi service department would not release that information and requires that I have the key made through them.

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Three Rings NetLogic's Avatar
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    Transponder Chip - Dealer only? - Yes unless you can get vag tacho to work which I will say won't happen since you are asking this in the first place.

    There is a thread on the first page or so about this. Also search and you will get plenty along with one major one.
    Luke

  3. #3
    Active Member Two Rings
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    thanks...

  4. #4
    Veteran Member Three Rings NetLogic's Avatar
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    Also make damn sure the immo chip you got is the correct one. Some one on here just bought a fob and immo off ebay and the immo was wrong and wouldn't work. Below is what is needed.

    http://www.keymam.com/product_view.asp?pid=50
    Luke

  5. #5
    Senior Member Two Rings KR_A4's Avatar
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    I had the same issue this wknd.

    The dealer will perform this for you... but cannot provide you with the pin due to the version of immobilizer and method to initiate adaptation.

    VAG Tacho is mentioned to work for this, but I have yet to get comfirmation of this.

  6. #6
    Active Member Two Rings
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    I am pretty new at German cars and it really does seem like it works differently with programming and ecu codes compared to my old cars which were all Japanese cars. I downloaded the ross-tech software from their website and I am trying to get my hands on a vag cable to see if I can pull out anything from the options menu. This VAG Tacho that both you KR_A4 and NetLogic is that a separate software of is it part of the software from Ross tech? The locksmith guy didn't even know anything about Vag-Com software, he was using some other unit that looks like a handheld obd2 reader from autozone or something to try and pull the immobilizer code for the transponder. @ NetLogic, the locksmith confirmed that the transponder chip was the correct one for my car. Thanks for all your help guys.

  7. #7
    Veteran Member Three Rings NetLogic's Avatar
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    Yea separate software just google it you will find a few things on it just not a lot info out there. Also to my understanding it's the gauge cluster has the 4 digit pin is and not the ECU. Also I think once you have the pin you can code the cluster with vag-com as well. Again this is limited to the little bit of reading I have done on the subject.
    Luke

  8. #8
    Veteran Member Four Rings ocod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NetLogic View Post
    Yea separate software just google it you will find a few things on it just not a lot info out there. Also to my understanding it's the gauge cluster has the 4 digit pin is and not the ECU. Also I think once you have the pin you can code the cluster with vag-com as well. Again this is limited to the little bit of reading I have done on the subject.
    if you seach the last pages of the B7 key fob by mikewire or derleicaman
    Someone else discussed Vag Tacho that has done it..
    Last edited by ocod; 08-23-2010 at 10:08 PM.
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  9. #9
    Veteran Member Three Rings derleicaman's Avatar
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    Hi ocod,

    My user name is derleicaman.

    derleicaman

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Four Rings ocod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derleicaman View Post
    Hi ocod,

    My user name is derleicaman.

    derleicaman
    i knew when I saw you posted I was going to get it.
    My apologies
    was to lazy to look up thread .


    edited post for your approval :)


    it was in your thread starts at post #410
    http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-B6-DIY/page11
    Last edited by ocod; 08-23-2010 at 10:21 PM.
    KO4 APR Stage II+ // tt injectors // Podi SW gague // NGK BRK 7E .28 gap // 2.5" Test Pipe // Forge 007 DV //
    APIKOL Snub Mount // Stock N75 // 20%Tint // DTH FRP Skirts // 270 miles to empty // B7 key fob // 35W 5K HID's

  11. #11
    Active Member Two Rings
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    Thanks for all your help guys. I was actually getting my car vag for the auto lock at 10mph today and the guy said that vag-tacho could read the pin or if I remove my cluster its on the back. I am going to take the cluster out this weekend and try to get the pin and see if it works. Read up on Ross-tech's website that the 4 digit pin is in the back too. Thanks for all your help.

  12. #12
    Veteran Member Four Rings imnuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by itzsleepy View Post
    Thanks for all your help guys. I was actually getting my car vag for the auto lock at 10mph today and the guy said that vag-tacho could read the pin or if I remove my cluster its on the back. I am going to take the cluster out this weekend and try to get the pin and see if it works. Read up on Ross-tech's website that the 4 digit pin is in the back too. Thanks for all your help.
    Can you post back if the 4 digit SKC is actually behind the instrument cluster? I don't really want to go through the hassle of removing it only to find it's not there.
    Retrieve your SKC for use with VCDS

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  13. #13
    Active Member Two Rings
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    I was researching all night so far to see if it really is and the only thing I can confirm is it is read from the instrument cluster using a software rs232. Again, like I said before, completely new to this and there is only so much info I can find. I guess that where they get the phrase its behind the cluster since it was said its behind the instrument cluster, but I am going to take it out anyways this weekend only cause I like to remove stuff and it gives me something to do... I will post again sometime saturday night or so and let you know if I find the SKC or anything that can be used to get that SKC. So far from everything that I am reading only Vag-Tacho is the best bet. Not even dealers can get the SKC number from what I read.

  14. #14
    Established Member Two Rings Dresevski's Avatar
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    I too have one key and it has been something on my mind for months since I have the eBay blank. I might just avoid most of the hassle by going to Audi and paying $100 for the front half of the key, no rear buttons...if I lost my key then I'll get another
    2002 A4 1.8T QM 105k ... EPL map, JHM shift kit, lowered, Pioneer X920BT, 12" sub ... Injectors? New speakers?

  15. #15
    Active Member Two Rings
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    So I was looking around on how to remove the cluster and I came across this DIY: http://www.audiworld.com/tech/int64.shtml If you look carefully at the photos it does really seem like there is anything there that says pin code. But anyways I ordered a Vag-Tacho today and waiting for it to come in to get my pin. Working late saturday but I am still going to try to remove my cluster to see if I find anything. I will post pics up once I have it out too.

  16. #16
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Items for Sale

    Which vag-tacho did you order? And what year is your car? It seems like the few ebay auctions I looked at only said it would work up to 02 or 03. Just wondering if you are working on something newer, or if you found elsewhere that it should work on all our B6 years? Thanks.

  17. #17
    Active Member Two Rings
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    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=220658931906 that was the one that I ordered and it says 02 + 03. I guess we will see when I get it in if it works. Some other guy that I been talking to in my area said that he used Vag-Tacho and pulled up the immobilizer pin number before and programmed keys using Vag-Com when he was working for this used car dealership in Queens, NY. I guess there really is only one way to tell and for me to try it out and see what happens. I will keep people posted.

  18. #18
    I have the Vag-tacho software but I dont have a vag-com cable to test it out with. But through a simple search on youtube I see this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZgbS...eature=related

  19. #19
    Active Member Two Rings
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    Okay, I know I said I was going to get it done this weekend removing the cluster and looking for the pin code, but I had time just now and I removed my cluster.
    The dash is empty nothing is in there that resembles any pin numbers

    The bottom of the cluster has nothing but the production date sticker

    The back of the cluster has a blank sticker

    The left side has a sticker with nothing on it that resembles a pin code

    The right side has a 4 digit number that say PM on it. I guess that I can try that number on monday when I have access to a Vag-Com cable. If you look closely its above the barcode.

    Top of the cluster has nothing.

  20. #20
    This is disappointing. Any word on the vag-tacho?
    450whp 17psi @ 6400rpm on pump

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  21. #21
    Active Member Two Rings
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    Still waiting for the cable to arrive. Probably in a week or so I hope. I am trying to find someone in the NYC area if they have the cable and I can borrow it for a few but no luck. Doesn't seem to be as common as the VAG-COM cable.

  22. #22
    Veteran Member Three Rings NetLogic's Avatar
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    Sleepy will a vag cable not work?
    Luke

  23. #23
    Active Member Two Rings
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    I tried using the vag cable and vag-tacho software the other day and I would not register. We even try to install the drivers that was supplied with the vag-tacho software and there was still nothing. Tried other usb ports and nothing. Technically it should work but Vag-Tacho would not detech the cable. The cable that I was using was a Vag cable from Ross-tech, so its not a generic one from ebay. I just gotta wait till monday to see if he figured out any solutions and test out that 4 digit PM number from the back of the cluster. I received an email today from the ebay seller that they have shipped my cable out and it should arrive 12-15 business days from now. It sucks cause my friend and gf will be back from HK before then and they wont give me an address for local pick up. I will keep everyone posted. Oh on a second note, I did by B7 console swap and now have a B6 console and e-brake in the house. I wanna get rid of it so you are in the brooklyn, ny area you can have it.

  24. #24
    Veteran Member Three Rings spyder101's Avatar
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    Just take it to the dealership. You'll spend more time and money dicking around with the pin numbers, cables and equipment than just getting it handled.

  25. #25
    Veteran Member Three Rings S4King's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyder101 View Post
    Just take it to the dealership. You'll spend more time and money dicking around with the pin numbers, cables and equipment than just getting it handled.
    But then if it works he will be able to do other peoples cars and make some money.

  26. #26
    Active Member Two Rings
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    not really looking to make money but its a food for thought. =D. Really looking to see if i can do it and dont have to spend 300 dollars per key the dealer wants. The Audi dealerships here in NYC are a**holes and charge an arm and a leg. Also, when I went, they wanted my registration, title for proof of ownership and three weeks for the key to be made. Went to the service departments in Brooklyn, NY.

  27. #27
    Veteran Member Three Rings S4King's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by itzsleepy View Post
    not really looking to make money but its a food for thought. =D. Really looking to see if i can do it and dont have to spend 300 dollars per key the dealer wants. The Audi dealerships here in NYC are a**holes and charge an arm and a leg. Also, when I went, they wanted my registration, title for proof of ownership and three weeks for the key to be made. Went to the service departments in Brooklyn, NY.
    I hear ya bro. What bothers me is that its only a 30min job but i understand they have to charge one hour. But for them to charge that amount for each key is outrageous. But i hope things work for ya. Then i would try it myself.

  28. #28
    Active Member Two Rings
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    Hey guys, I am in the process of "manufacturing" another key for my 2002 Audi A4B6 also. I only have one key so my goal is to have another one that I will keep home, in case I loose the only one I have. Since I have a 2002 model, it seems that my CCM is somehow different from the B7 models so my only option ( without other modifications ) - is to go with a B6 key only. Although the B7 key looks sexier, I won't cut my wrists so a B6 key would be just fine :)
    Now, as far as I have read through quite a few threads on this forum concerning this matter , let's sum up what we know so far ( and anybody should correct me if I'm wrong ) :
    - the key is actually made out of 2 distinct parts:
    a. the key ( blade ) part - which contains the metal blade + the transponder chip that is required to communicate with the car's immobilizer in order to start the engine
    b. the buttons ( remote locking ) part - which contains the radio transmitter + buttons that lock/unlock the car's doors/hood remotely.

    First off - you need another key of course - probably I will just get a used one off ebay as they come cheap, some even with blank metal blades mounted. In my case, my key has the following product code : 8ZO 837 231 / 355029 @ 433.92MHz. This is the code found on the buttons half and I do suspect that this is the only code that is important because the other half ( the blade half ) is actually a plastic case containing the metal blade + transponder chip which is the same in all cases ( id48 chip ). On eBay I found keys ( remote part ) working on 2 different freq. : 433.92 and 315 Mhz.
    Question 1 : if the key(s) that already is functional, works on let's say 433.92Mhz, do you necessary need to get the next keys that work on the same frequency or you can get any key to work on any car ?
    There are 2 ways to match the key ( remote lock/unlock ) to the car : one way where you require to have your existing key in the ignition and follow some simple steps ( you can find the exact steps on google on tons of websites ) and the second way which is the safest and always seem to work with no problems : use a VAG-COM interface to have the car "learn" the new keys as explained here - http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/car...-matching.html

    To get the remote to work seems to be the simple part, as dealing with the car's immobilizer in order to have it start the engine requires the other half of the key - the part with the metal blade and the transponder chip. The metal blade issue is actually not an issue, it's pretty straight forward actually : purchase an uncut ( new ) metal blade and have it cut by a locksmith to match the original key's profile. You have to be careful though as there are 2 types of blades : a longer one and a shorter one. On my B6 my blade is a bit longer and according to the forums, the B7 ( and newer ) keys are shorter by a bit so be careful what you buy. Once the blade problem is out of the way, you have to deal with the more delicate problem : how to match the key's chip to be recognized by the car's immobilizer in order to start. There is only one way ( except the dealer ofc ) to program the key to work with the immo : the VAG-COM way as explained here : http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/key-matching.html
    The problem is, you need a 7 digit SKC ( Secret Key Code ) to do it. Before 2005 Audi either released this code to it's clients on a new car purchase or a client could just ask about it at a local Audi dealer. After 2005, this info is not released to the public anymore ( probably cause of security issues ) and not even a dealer or an Audi technician can get this code as the process of matching a new key to a car in a dealership is done with the car connected to a device that connects to Audi's database in Germany and the sync is done automatically online with nobody seeing this SKC in the process. So how do we get it ? Some say that on some models is written on a paper behind the car's cluster, but 2 guys that took out the car's cluster reported no code. Looks like the only way to get that code is to use a VAG Tacho interface connected to the car and a PC. These can be purchased off eBay. I haven't seen one but it seems that is very similar to a VAG-COM interface cable but is used mostly to re-write the car's mileage display and to read out this code from the car's ECU. I don't know what version should work on what cars but if someone knows exactly, it would be great to share it to us. I would also like people that managed to read out the SKC using such a VAG Tacho cable/interface to relate how it's done and if there is any other software involved other than the one supplied with the cable on a CD upon purchase.
    Supposedly we managed to get the SKC code using the Tacho interface. We note it down and follow the Ross-Tech ( link above ) technique to match the new key(s) chip(s) to the car's immo.
    Question 2 : Using VAG-COM, can you match an already used chip ( already in a second-hand key ) to the car or the chip has to be necessary "virgin" ?
    If you would go to a dealer to have a key matched, that key's chip would have to be "virgin" ( never used on another car before ) - so when purchasing a used key off eBay you would also have to purchase a new chip to fit in the key you wish to sync to the car. New chips can be found on KeyMam or eBay - search for id48 chips. Some eBay folks, say that ANY chip ( previously used or not ) can be matched to ANY CAR using the VAG COM. I find this to be at least very likely to be true because according to Ross-Tech instructions, with the old key in the ignition, there is a point where the number of matched keys is set to 0 - so all keys are being UNMATCHED which means the old key ( working one ) is now also considered a used key like any others. The following matching process must be completed for both the old working key in the same way as for the new ones. So if it works to re-match your old key, why not work for any other previously used keys ?

    So to sum up what's needed : 1 complete Audi Key with a functional remote component, 1 blank metal blade, 1 VagCom interface, 1 Vag Tacho and maybe a new transponder id48 chip.

    I hope everything makes sense and I ask you guys to make clarifications where needed... and correct anything I wrongly stated above. Also I would appreciate it for more advanced users to answer my 2 questions above.
    Also looking forward to hear from people that actually succeeded all the steps above :)

  29. #29
    Veteran Member Three Rings NetLogic's Avatar
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    You have an 02 so you can't use a b7 fob. I linked to where you can buy the blank immos earlier in this thread. Until sleep reports back on vag tacho you must go to dealer with blank immo chips. All of this has been covered many times.
    Luke

  30. #30
    Active Member Two Rings
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    Okay so far on my research to get a new key just as you are trying to do is, 1. get a new key fob, if you get a b6 key fob then you are okay without changing the ccm but if you want the b7 key fob u need to change the ccm. The 02 ccm ends with T and the ones you need end with BT or CG. As far as the frequency coding, I have a 315mhz so I got key fobs that were 315 mhz. You need blank key blades and new ID48 chips. From what I have been researching, you cannot reprogram a written immobilizer chip. 2. you need to get the keys cut and reprogram from the locksmith or the dealer. Unfortunately my dealer charges and arm and a leg per key so I am trying to get the programming part done myself. Some locksmiths have cloning machines but they also charge an arm and leg. Some places I went to in Brooklyn and Queens were asking close the same price the dealers wanted. For programing Vag-Tacho 3.51 is the latest software http://www.maltchev.com/kiti/ and you can program the keys as get the pin code with Vag-Tacho. I have ordered one and should be here in 12-15 business days as per the tracking information. If I successfully get it done I will post up with pictures/video and try to writeup my first DIY on it. I also got a B7 key fob for 10 dollars on ebay just recently that had the same frequency code as my b6 and same part number. Bought it to test it out, if it doesn't work, would make a good spare key I guess.

    On a second note, I took apart my kick panel and dead pedal and could not find the CCM unit in my car. Anyone have pictures of it by any chance of where it is? Thanks.

  31. #31
    Active Member Two Rings
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    As I said, I am aware that because I have a 2002 B6, I am forced to get another B6 key without changing the CCM - and I'm fine with a B6, no biggie there.

    Regarding the immo chip programming... from what I understand, when matching the keys with the car, we are in fact programming the CAR's component to work with the giving key not vice versa. In other words, we are connecting with the car's internal component and do the work there. We have no connection with the key itself. So I find it logic that ANY chip ( either used or unsed ) will work with any given car. To further sustain this ( and I already covered it in my brief above ), on Ross-Tech website, we are instructed to first delete ANY PREVIOUS keys from the car's memory, including the one we are already using in the ignition that very second, so at that point our car has absolutely NO KEY matched to work. Our old key is considered just another second hand key like any other. When we start the matching process on the next step, we first start matching our old key again with the car and then go on with the next key(s). Does this make sense ?
    Anyway, the chips are very cheap so it isn't a problem about the price, it's more of a hassle issue cause if you manage to make a key's remote work fine + the blade copied to match your original key's profile .. you MAY not be required to wait 2 weeks for a "virgin" chip to arrive from China.

    However the dealers require a "virgin" chip because every key's chip is registered on their data-base to be matched to a certain car. So they can't have an already registered key work on ANOTHER car. This way they avoid the possibility for 1 key to start 2 or more cars. So it's normal that a "unused" chip is required. It's a normal security thing.
    But when we use VAG-COM, we have no connection with their data-base, just our car in the garage. So for all we know, the key's chip we are trying to match to our car might have already been matched to start 500 cars in the past. To be honest I don't seem to care, as the blade is different anyway and even so, my concern is that my car isn't started with another key, not that my key can actually start 500 other cars ;) Does it make sense ?

  32. #32
    Active Member Two Rings
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    From all the cloning tools and software that programs immobilizer chips that I have read up about does not rewrite over a programmed chip and needs a new fresh chip to be programmed to. The VAG-Com software to program an immobilizer states that you have to set the values to zero so that no keys are programmed to the immobilizer unit to your car. Then when you program new keys you set the value of keys that you have in total, new keys that you are programming and any old keys you have so that the immobilizer knows how may keys you have. You have one key right now and you want another key right? So when you program the new key with VAG-Com you erase the value so that it is set to 0 and then set the new value to 2 keys you have in total. You have the old key which is already programmed with your immobilizer id and the new key that will be program when you follow those steps. The original key is not reprogrammed at all. I could be wrong but that is what I read and learned to my understanding of how it works.

    Either way the ultimate goal is to get a duplicate key and pay as little as possible so we don't have to go to the dealers and get dicked up the ass in charges. =T So basically I would just follow all the instructions of the other post out there to get the key duplicated. I am just trying to find a way so I can avoid going to the dealer period.

  33. #33
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    Craiova/Romania

    Yes in the long run that's our goal and if my calculations are correct, it should be somewhere around 100-130$ to have everything purchased and running in the end ( key + blade + chip + vag-com + vag tacho ). And according to all the research i've done, it's pretty sure that IT WILL WORK.

    The chip inside the key has no power source, no battery and no other electronic component. There is no programming done to "IT" when matching it to the car as I don't see how it is able to have anything "recorded" on it. The chip has some sort of unique id that is read by the car. All the "recording" is done on the car not on the key. In my town, most of the buildings with apartments have a intercom locking system on the main door. So either you call someone in the building to let you in, or if you actually live there, you are given a little plastic round thingy that you put on as a key chain and when you're at the building's door just have that plastic thing near a receiver in the wall and the door opens. It's pretty much the same system, it doesn't have a battery or anything, it's just a small chip that is read by the locking system and opens the door. This is my assumption of how things work, and I am 95% sure I am not wrong.

    Anyway I will buy a "virgin" chip along with my new key just in case as 5$ is a very low amount to take any chances :) And it's not like I can run down to the store and get one right away, is it :)

    Can't wait for you to get the Tacho interface and let us know how it went. BTW what car/year do you have ?

  34. #34
    Active Member Two Rings
    Join Date
    Jul 19 2010
    AZ Member #
    61654
    My Garage
    1992 Mazda Miata
    Location
    New York

    I also have an 2002 A4. Its an 1.8T Quattro. I keep checking the tracking and its left china already so I am just waiting for it to arrive.

    Update: It have reached JFK airport waiting to clear customs.. =D

  35. #35
    Active Member Two Rings
    Join Date
    Jul 06 2010
    AZ Member #
    61084
    Location
    Craiova/Romania

    shit ... must be in your possession in no time :) Suppose you already have a VagCom interface, right ? Many say that Tacho does both the reading and registering new keys ... We shall soon find out it seems :)

  36. #36
    Active Member Two Rings
    Join Date
    Jul 19 2010
    AZ Member #
    61654
    My Garage
    1992 Mazda Miata
    Location
    New York

    yeah hopefully soon. Vag-Com I dont have a cable I just have access to one. I should buy one soon tho.

  37. #37
    Established Member Two Rings Farmerjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 03 2010
    AZ Member #
    55464
    My Garage
    10' Equinox
    Location
    South Dakota

    ^ebay
    Black on Black unpainted lowers, 1.8T Auto

    "Hilfe! Polizei Brutalitšt!"

  38. #38
    Active Member Two Rings
    Join Date
    Jul 19 2010
    AZ Member #
    61654
    My Garage
    1992 Mazda Miata
    Location
    New York

    okay so I went back to the get my registration from the dealer today and used the vag-com cable. That four digit PM number is not a valid SKC/Pin Code number. I will post again when I get the VAG-Tacho.

  39. #39
    Active Member Two Rings
    Join Date
    Jul 19 2010
    AZ Member #
    61654
    My Garage
    1992 Mazda Miata
    Location
    New York

    I got the Vag-Tacho in today and it did not work at all. I think that I would need the newer version that all immo 3 which also means I need to get the new cable too.

  40. #40
    Active Member Two Rings
    Join Date
    Jul 06 2010
    AZ Member #
    61084
    Location
    Craiova/Romania

    holy crap, so it doesn't work at all. Any chance you can find another 2001/2002 - B6 and check if it's the same thing ?

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