1.8l + PTE5857 = 425awhp?

[Dan[FN]6262]

tomorrow the bottom end will be finished, as long as everything goes as planned

and I'm gonna start tearing apart the head.

[MMMB00ST_A4]

Your build thread is getting waaay off track already.

And no, no 3.0 swap for me. We just need to iron out some tuning details and we should be good to go on the swap.

[Clint@R.A.I.]

nice. Did you decide to do AEB or no?

[Dan[FN]6262]

nice. Did you decide to do AEB or no?

i need to talk to you.

[MMMB00ST_A4]

i need to talk to you.

Ut oh! You guys breaking up?? Sounds serious! Ok, ok, enough OT in your own thread!

[eg6siR]

what??

i also almost fell off my chair when i saw this...

@ dan, yea man, i'd let you drive it, it didnt cost a whole lot, and i got it to beat the shit out of... plus the worst you could do would be to hit a cone or go into the grass....

[a408]

i also almost fell off my chair when i saw this...

@ dan, yea man, i'd let you drive it, it didnt cost a whole lot, and i got it to beat the shit out of... plus the worst you could do would be to hit a cone or go into the grass....

lol im glad you guys like the jerking off lemur

[winston@podi.ca]

I would suggest pistons, but that's just me. The way I see it is, you're ripping apart the block already so why do a half ass job, run a slightly larger bore piston since you're honing the block this way all chances of a poor seal are eliminated. Also, why not AEB head considering its probably cheaper than porting and polishing the AMB and it would allow you to work on it and if something goes wrong you have another head as a spare. I know an AMB head can make lots of power and is underestimated, but I would just go the AEB route as the work of porting at least is already complete, or you can be uber baller and port it some more. I'm curious about the FMIC as I want to go the Treadstone route myself. Also, why are you running such humongous injectors?

+1

You won't make 400awhp with the AMB head regardless of how much work you do to it as it just doesn't flow enough air. I know as I decided to walk down that path already even though people told me otherwise.

If you are going to do the work do it to an AEB head and save yourself some time and money as head building isn't cheap even if you are doing your own work.

And why you would run massive injectors but keep the displacement to 1.8L doesn't make sense

[O2VW1.8T]

Why wont it make 400awhp, i dont see any problems. Later this year i'll start my build and change up the B6 scene hopefully

[Dan[FN]6262]

@ dan, yea man, i'd let you drive it, it didnt cost a whole lot, and i got it to beat the shit out of... plus the worst you could do would be to hit a cone or go into the grass....

LOL good point

[Dan[FN]6262]

You won't make 400awhp with the AMB head regardless of how much work you do to it as it just doesn't flow enough air. I know as I decided to walk down that path already even though people told me otherwise.

If you are going to do the work do it to an AEB head and save yourself some time and money as head building isn't cheap even if you are doing your own work.

And why you would run massive injectors but keep the displacement to 1.8L doesn't make sense

I respect your opinion and suggestions. You make very nice products for our platform and I've been meaning to order a Podi, but there just has been to much going on and it keeps getting pushed back.

Just so you know, I have been toying with the idea of getting an AEB just because I would like to get everything out of this turbo that I can, pending the fuel system. Also, I know what it cost to build a head, and I know it isn't cheap. If I can't do what I want with the AMB head, I can always get a bare AEB and swap over all valvetrain component OR get an AEB, build it and then swap heads and sell the AMB. There are a lot of options.

I don't understand why you are correlating injector size with displacement More fuel = more boost. I know a couple people that have a 35R strapped to a built 1.6l & 1.8l Honda engines and run 1000c injectors. Either way, I've decided to go with Siemens 870cc injectors.

Why wont it make 400awhp, i dont see any problems. Later this year i'll start my build and change up the B6 scene hopefully

I can't wait to see what you do.

[Clint@R.A.I.]

I am also confused as to how big injectors have anything to do with displacement...

[SleeperAvant]

Why would running large injectors on stock displacement be an issue?

[Dan[FN]6262]

It isn't.

[SleeperAvant]

+1

You won't make 400awhp with the AMB head regardless of how much work you do to it as it just doesn't flow enough air. I know as I decided to walk down that path already even though people told me otherwise.

If you are going to do the work do it to an AEB head and save yourself some time and money as head building isn't cheap even if you are doing your own work.

And why you would run massive injectors but keep the displacement to 1.8L doesn't make sense

I disagree. I bet the community would love to see what the AMB head can do as far as potential. Didn't A4ringed18T do a 3076r on his stock motor with nothing but IE drop-ins? Pretty sure he hit 400 front wheel hp or somewhere damn close to that.
As far as injector sizes, please explain why massive injectors are not good for 1.8L displacement.

[dougyfresh]

I disagree. I bet the community would love to see what the AMB head can do as far as potential. Didn't A4ringed18T do a 3076r on his stock motor with nothing but IE drop-ins? Pretty sure he hit 400 front wheel hp or somewhere damn close to that.
As far as injector sizes, please explain why massive injectors are not good for 1.8L displacement.

Winston basically did that. Albeit he overbored a few millimeters and used aftermarket pistons. So, you're arguing over 100 cubic centimeters give or take. Semantics in my book..

Daniel also did the same thing. I think he stuck with stock pistons though and a slight hone (but I forget).

Both had built small port heads and Winston just recently switched to a large port head.

This is not something new in the B6 A4 community.

[Dan[FN]6262]

I need to see both the small port and large port head in front of me. not just pictures of them side by side. I want to see why you couldn't achieve the same thing by porting the small port head. Both of the heads have the same sized valves and everything. The only difference is port size.

Doug, correct me if I am wrong. I'm seriously asking, not being a smartass or anything. Everything that I have researched, the only difference is the port size.

[winston@podi.ca]

I respect your opinion and suggestions. You make very nice products for our platform and I've been meaning to order a Podi, but there just has been to much going on and it keeps getting pushed back.

Just so you know, I have been toying with the idea of getting an AEB just because I would like to get everything out of this turbo that I can, pending the fuel system. Also, I know what it cost to build a head, and I know it isn't cheap. If I can't do what I want with the AMB head, I can always get a bare AEB and swap over all valvetrain component OR get an AEB, build it and then swap heads and sell the AMB. There are a lot of options.

I don't understand why you are correlating injector size with displacement More fuel = more boost. I know a couple people that have a 35R strapped to a built 1.6l & 1.8l Honda engines and run 1000c injectors. Either way, I've decided to go with Siemens 870cc injectors.

What I am giving you is more than opinion as I did everything you plan to do already. I did a fully built AMB head with stock cams and no matter what we tried with fueling we didn't come close to 400awhp. I bit the bullet, swapped out the AMB for a fully built AEB head, still with stock cams, and there was a huge improvement.

And for displacement more fuel + more air = more power. Yes it is only 100cc but why you wouldn't bore it out to make sure you have perfectly matched holes with the pistons is perplexing.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

I disagree. I bet the community would love to see what the AMB head can do as far as potential. Didn't A4ringed18T do a 3076r on his stock motor with nothing but IE drop-ins? Pretty sure he hit 400 front wheel hp or somewhere damn close to that.
As far as injector sizes, please explain why massive injectors are not good for 1.8L displacement.

Pretty sure Shawn never dynoed his car with the 30r, last dyno he did was on his gtrs which he didn't even hit 300whp on running a race gas mix and on a dynojet dyno, oh and don't forget he also was front wheel drive so he had less drive train loss also. He did run the 30r at the track though and his best trap was 108mph at high boost which is nothing exciting considering I had trapped 114-116mph with my car using the same turbo.

And I am also confused why people are so excited over this build, I am already running this tubo

[winston@podi.ca]

I disagree. I bet the community would love to see what the AMB head can do as far as potential. Didn't A4ringed18T do a 3076r on his stock motor with nothing but IE drop-ins? Pretty sure he hit 400 front wheel hp or somewhere damn close to that.
As far as injector sizes, please explain why massive injectors are not good for 1.8L displacement.

Go look up my dyno charts and posts as I believe I maxed out what the AMB head can do and to be honest it was disappointing for the amount of money I put into it... also 400fwhp and 400awhp is like comparing apples to oranges.

And I never said running massive injectors is not good or an issue. I am wondering why if you are doing all this work you don't increase the displacement at the same time.

And if when I ran the AMB head no matter how much fuel we through at the setup it didn't make any more power.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

Also, the reason everyone is asking about the injectors is this:

We have yet to see a build with similar components where the usual injectors are being completely maxed out. Running bigger injectors won't make sense if they aren't being used at max pressure or near their 870cc mark. Also, you can only run so much boost, you can't go hog wild and run 35psi. I mean the max u'll run is 26-28psi and that in itself can post to be a problem for not only the turbo but for the motor. This is just my opinion nothing else.

[winston@podi.ca]

With the injectors on the stock returnless fueling system the pressure is regulated at the fuel filter so we AMB guys are limited by the amount of fuel we can pump out of the rail. I am installing a VEI fuel pressure sender in my rail to measure just how much the fuel pressure drops when the boost starts to go up.

The B5 guys with the return fuel system and having a rising rate FPR can run 630cc injectors and hit the 400awhp mark ad their fuel pressure increases alongside their boost levels.

[Dan[FN]6262]

What I am giving you is more than opinion as I did everything you plan to do already. I did a fully built AMB head with stock cams and no matter what we tried with fueling we didn't come close to 400awhp. I bit the bullet, swapped out the AMB for a fully built AEB head, still with stock cams, and there was a huge improvement.

And for displacement more fuel + more air = more power. Yes it is only 100cc but why you wouldn't bore it out to make sure you have perfectly matched holes with the pistons is perplexing.

I didn't mean to make my response sound as if I didn't believe you, or that I was being a smartass or anything, I hope you didn't think that or took it that way. I'm using my stock pistons and when I removed them you could still see the factory machining marks on the cylinder walls, and there is absolutely no reason that I would have to think that one of my cylinders are not true. I've already honed my block.

Did you port your small port head? I'm sorry, I'm not well acquainted with your build.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

I will tell you what it does, It will drop from 58psi to 54-55psi while running 25psi of boost with a GT3076r, aeb head, schrick cams, 830cc injectors and a bosch 046 fuel pump (Eurocode XXX pump) on the stock fuel system. And my car on a dyno dynamics with the boost holding 26psi and tapering down to 24 by the end of the run made 387whp (this on the rising rate fuel system).

[winston@podi.ca]

I didn't mean to make my response sound as if I didn't believe you, or that I was being a smartass or anything, I hope you didn't think that or took it that way. I'm using my stock pistons and when I removed them you could still see the factory machining marks on the cylinder walls, and there is absolutely no reason that I would have to think that one of my cylinders are not true. I've already honed my block.

Did you port your small port head? I'm sorry, I'm not well acquainted with your build.

Don't worry, I didn't take your reply the wrong way. I used to be where you are and pretty much sending to you the same advice that was given to me, if you choose to follow your path and find out for yourself what works and what doesn't that is cool. The knowledge I gained along the build was worth the money I spent.

In regards to your pistons I would never assume that the cylinders are true by visual marks. Once again I did that too, I lost a piston and had JE cut another set using the same piston file, mic'd the pistons and they seemed to be within spec, put them in the block and I ended up with a noisy cold engine as the pistons were loose. Ended up eating up a lot of oil due to blowby and eventually gave up, pulled the block out, sent it to the machine shop and when they did all of the measurements each of the cylinders was a different size to each piston. So I got a 'new' AMB block and had each hole bored out to each piston again.

At the end of the AMB experiment we did try dropping on a port matched built AMB head from another build and had some gains but not the same amount as putting the AEB head on.

[winston@podi.ca]

I will tell you what it does, It will drop from 58psi to 54-55psi while running 25psi of boost with a GT3076r, aeb head, schrick cams, 830cc injectors and a bosch 046 fuel pump (Eurocode XXX pump) on the stock fuel system. And my car on a dyno dynamics with the boost holding 26psi and tapering down to 24 by the end of the run made 387whp (this on the rising rate fuel system).

When we put in fuel pressure gauge inline we measured a much bigger drop than 3-4psi at the rail. We'll know for sure in a couple of weeks.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

What fuel pump were you running? An 040 I believe right? Which doesn't flow as much as my pump and could explain why.

My pump is the XXX

[SleeperAvant]

Go look up my dyno charts and posts as I believe I maxed out what the AMB head can do and to be honest it was disappointing for the amount of money I put into it... also 400fwhp and 400awhp is like comparing apples to oranges.

And I never said running massive injectors is not good or an issue. I am wondering why if you are doing all this work you don't increase the displacement at the same time.

And if when I ran the AMB head no matter how much fuel we through at the setup it didn't make any more power.

Thanks Winston, I stand corrected.

[winston@podi.ca]

I am running the drop in 040 pump.

If the XXX pump does what the chart says I might have to look into it to see if it helps push fuel with the 630cc setup I'm running.

[sean1.8t]

+1

You won't make 400awhp with the AMB head regardless of how much work you do to it as it just doesn't flow enough air. I know as I decided to walk down that path already even though people told me otherwise.

plenty of people have made over 400 and 500whp running a small port head. just because YOU couldn't do it, doesn't mean no one else has. maybe spend a little less time powdercoating engine bay piece's and some more time optimizing your software and fuelling

[winston@podi.ca]

^^^ You are a big meanie

[Clint@R.A.I.]

I disagree. I bet the community would love to see what the AMB head can do as far as potential. Didn't A4ringed18T do a 3076r on his stock motor with nothing but IE drop-ins? Pretty sure he hit 400 front wheel hp or somewhere damn close to that.
As far as injector sizes, please explain why massive injectors are not good for 1.8L displacement.

Shawns car is the worst example in our community of a BT car performing. Wrong software, small port, stock cams, stock intake, ATP stuff, etc etc. It looked pretty and everyone loved it, and yes I drove in it, it was fast, but it wasn't a good example at all.

What I am giving you is more than opinion as I did everything you plan to do already. I did a fully built AMB head with stock cams and no matter what we tried with fueling we didn't come close to 400awhp. I bit the bullet, swapped out the AMB for a fully built AEB head, still with stock cams, and there was a huge improvement.

And for displacement more fuel + more air = more power. Yes it is only 100cc but why you wouldn't bore it out to make sure you have perfectly matched holes with the pistons is perplexing.

Winston, you missed one of the biggest ways to get air into the motor, CAMS. Had you put cams in with the small port, you might have cracked 400.

Pretty sure Shawn never dynoed his car with the 30r, last dyno he did was on his gtrs which he didn't even hit 300whp on running a race gas mix and on a dynojet dyno, oh and don't forget he also was front wheel drive so he had less drive train loss also. He did run the 30r at the track though and his best trap was 108mph at high boost which is nothing exciting considering I had trapped 114-116mph with my car using the same turbo.

And I am also confused why people are so excited over this build, I am already running this tubo

Agreed on Shawns car.

You've been good about your insecurities showing lately, keep it up man. Everyone knows what turbo you have.

Go look up my dyno charts and posts as I believe I maxed out what the AMB head can do and to be honest it was disappointing for the amount of money I put into it... also 400fwhp and 400awhp is like comparing apples to oranges.

And I never said running massive injectors is not good or an issue. I am wondering why if you are doing all this work you don't increase the displacement at the same time.

And if when I ran the AMB head no matter how much fuel we through at the setup it didn't make any more power.

There is 0 reason that he has to increase displacement. People have made 600whp on 1.8L displacement. The 2L is ~$1500 and that's not worth it to some. Honestly, I don't know why people even do the 1.9L when you can get a crank for $50.

Also, the reason everyone is asking about the injectors is this:

We have yet to see a build with similar components where the usual injectors are being completely maxed out. Running bigger injectors won't make sense if they aren't being used at max pressure or near their 870cc mark. Also, you can only run so much boost, you can't go hog wild and run 35psi. I mean the max u'll run is 26-28psi and that in itself can post to be a problem for not only the turbo but for the motor. This is just my opinion nothing else.

Ummm, running bigger injectors is so you have headroom. You don't get an injector that can handle 400hp when you want to make 400hp. I should have done at least 1000ccs. There are no downsides to running a bigger injector other than possible idle issues. Evos run up to 1600cc injectors. Our cars are boost limited because as boost goes up, flow goes down. So, having an 870cc injector on returnless makes it LESS than 870cc. This is why my 830ccs are maxed out and yes I have found the limit of these injectors. You can go hog wild and run 35psi. Turbos can run 50psi, the engine is dependant but a good tune on a nicely made setup can run good boost. Also, who said he isn't going to run meth and 35psi? If I had meth that's what I would run

With the injectors on the stock returnless fueling system the pressure is regulated at the fuel filter so we AMB guys are limited by the amount of fuel we can pump out of the rail. I am installing a VEI fuel pressure sender in my rail to measure just how much the fuel pressure drops when the boost starts to go up.

The B5 guys with the return fuel system and having a rising rate FPR can run 630cc injectors and hit the 400awhp mark ad their fuel pressure increases alongside their boost levels.

We have done this at the shop and verified 52psi across the board, from 4000-8500. Pressure at the rail is not the problem, the boost pushing back on the injector is.

When we put in fuel pressure gauge inline we measured a much bigger drop than 3-4psi at the rail. We'll know for sure in a couple of weeks.

Ours didn't drop more than 3-4 at all. This is still on returnless

[HTA A4]

Very good info. in this thread. Dan, you seem to know what you're talking about and you will learn so much during this build. I'm personally very glad I overbored my motor but kept the stock stroke. My only complaint about my current setup it that its not the best "around town" car. The problem I have is when pulling out into traffic or away from a stoplight, I cannot accelerate as fast as I would like while not getting into boost (so I don't open the wastegate). But that has to do with my compression ratio and the size of my turbo lol

IF you're looking to get everything out of this turbo setup like you said, I would overbore at minimum. Possibly look into a longer stroke if you want a little better spool. My $.02

[AudiA4Turbo22]

So why don't we make a return fuel system? If it'll yield more fuel and more power?

[O2VW1.8T]

I need to see both the small port and large port head in front of me. not just pictures of them side by side. I want to see why you couldn't achieve the same thing by porting the small port head. Both of the heads have the same sized valves and everything. The only difference is port size.

Doug, correct me if I am wrong. I'm seriously asking, not being a smartass or anything. Everything that I have researched, the only difference is the port size.

Top is AEB bottem is my stock AWP small port. I only ported the top to AEB spec..

[Dan[FN]6262]

Top is AEB bottem is my stock AWP small port. I only ported the top to AEB spec..

Thank you! That is what I wanted to see!

[A4 TSCHUSS]

You've been good about your insecurities showing lately, keep it up man. Everyone knows what turbo you have.

Really? What is there to be insecure about, my clutch slips, my tranny sucks, my software is a rough beta with no revisions which you have much better than me since you can work right with Mike Z and a dyno with the revisions you have got, I then go to a track not even with a tank full of race gas while running on 19 inch wheels which are obviously not ideal to go fast with and I still am "top dog" with all that not going for me while running a basic Gt3076r that is by no means the best or biggest turbo being ran by others Not sure what there is to be insecure about lmao. Insecure would be when a car that is subpar in the setup compared to mine spanking me, but if someone equal or even better would be no issue, but at this point that hasn't even happened, should it and will it, well it probably should especially with your car considering you have a better setup than me, we will wait and see how you do.

I just thought it was funny how people are like "this thing is gonna be a beast" or "Oh man I cant wait for this" like it is something new or exciting. It is 1.8 liter, it has a small port head, it has no cams, no intake manifold, gonna have some kind of manifold that isnt tubular and the turbo is already being ran by someone else, so why is it so exciting? There is nothing wrong with his build and what he is doing, but the way people are acting is like it is some kind of break through in performance but it is the complete opposite and is pretty plain.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Very good info. in this thread. Dan, you seem to know what you're talking about and you will learn so much during this build. I'm personally very glad I overbored my motor but kept the stock stroke. My only complaint about my current setup it that its not the best "around town" car. The problem I have is when pulling out into traffic or away from a stoplight, I cannot accelerate as fast as I would like while not getting into boost (so I don't open the wastegate). But that has to do with my compression ratio and the size of my turbo lol

IF you're looking to get everything out of this turbo setup like you said, I would overbore at minimum. Possibly look into a longer stroke if you want a little better spool. My $.02

Shoot if you think that with your HTA3076 put this turbo on your car, I lost quite a bit of acceleration in the midrange since boost hits so much later now.

[Dan[FN]6262]

I know my build sucks, you didn't have to remind me


I don't know why you're being all defensive. I wasn't trying to break the bank with my build or make the most power ever, or take your "top dog" crown. I want to just keep it pretty basic and just see how much power it will make.

[Clint@R.A.I.]

Really? What is there to be insecure about, my clutch slips, my tranny sucks, my software is a rough beta with no revisions which you have much better than me since you can work right with Mike Z and a dyno with the revisions you have got, I then go to a track not even with a tank full of race gas while running on 19 inch wheels which are obviously not ideal to go fast with and I still am "top dog" with all that not going for me while running a basic Gt3076r that is by no means the best or biggest turbo being ran by others Not sure what there is to be insecure about lmao. Insecure would be when a car that is subpar in the setup compared to mine spanking me, but if someone equal or even better would be no issue, but at this point that hasn't even happened, should it and will it, well it probably should especially with your car considering you have a better setup than me, we will wait and see how you do.

I just thought it was funny how people are like "this thing is gonna be a beast" or "Oh man I cant wait for this" like it is something new or exciting. It is 1.8 liter, it has a small port head, it has no cams, no intake manifold, gonna have some kind of manifold that isnt tubular and the turbo is already being ran by someone else, so why is it so exciting? There is nothing wrong with his build and what he is doing, but the way people are acting is like it is some kind of break through in performance but it is the complete opposite and is pretty plain.

FYI my first revision was the best, honestly I didn't know I was having these leaking issues so Mike was confused when he was trying to tune the car being all messed up.

Is your car fast? yea. But, the more BT cars the merrier, and Dan is going to have a custom tune written, so maybe his car will work slightly better