S5 FSI engines doomed due to intake manifold carbon build-up ?

[elf_cruiser]

So do you run with the PCV to the atmosphere (crankcase side), and the other end plugged up (intake side)? Or..? Share your setup please :)

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=2777294

I wound up getting some heater hose to use btwn the valve cover and the breather - that crappy clear plastic tube didn't take the heat.

[joster]

I have exactly the same experience, a 2009 S5, new fuel injectors, high pressure pumps, etc. Nothing worked. They finally tore the top off and blasted the carbon out of it.

This is a huge problem. DO NOT BUY an AUDI with an FSI motor.

[Tanner]

Well you might as well not buy anything then, pretty well all manufacturers are using direct injection. The only engine that I am aware of that doesn't have buildup issue is the Lexus IS350 as it has a port injector also to help clean the intake valves.

Guys are seeing that the buildup isn't as extreme or noticeable on the backside of the intake valves of the 3.0T, albeit there is some buildup on the valve stems.

[joster]

Not true. While all manufacturers seem to offer Direct Injection Motors somewhere in their lineups, they are not exclusively DI like Audi. BMW and Acura, for example, all have port injection motors. BMW has them in 6, 8, and 12-cyl motors for 2011. I'm about to bail on my S5 and get a beemer. Not going to wait for the class-action lawsuit.

[Tanner]

If anything BMW is moving towards that direction with their "EfficientDynamics". Their latest V12 does in fact use direct injection (they call it High Precision Injection). The only straight six left that uses port is the one used in the 328.

So just for discussion-sake, what BMW are you seriously going to look at that has port injection.

[joster]

328 x-drive. 3.0 liter motor with valvetronic. It is one of the only remaining non-direct injection motors in their lineup.

Specifically: http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/conte...tionId=1504203

[joster]

Well, it's official:

After opening a case with Audi Customer Service (ACS), and waiting four weeks for them to "research," I finally got a call back:

ACS: "Hi this is Eric from Audi Customer Service."
ME: "Hi, what did you find out?"
ACS: "I talked to several people here, and it's a fuel quality issue."
ME: "'scuse me? what do you mean by that?"
ACS: "It is a fuel quality issue."
ME: "I run nothing other than Sunoco 93, and have all the receipts. They told me not to run Mobil ever, so I don't"
ACS: "I'm not saying you run unacceptable gas, I'm saying it's a fuel quaity issue, industry-wide."
ME: "Where do you suggest I buy gas suitable for this vehicle."
ACS: "I don't know."
ME: "Well I can only buy gas at a gas station on planet Earth, so what do I do?"
ACS: "Until there's a recall or service bulletin, there's nothing we can do for you."
ME: "So, what you're saying is, I can expect my car to have serious Carbon Problems, and the only fix is to have the heads pulled off and 'de-carboned' every 10-15k miles?"
ACS: "Until the gasoline comanies improve their fuel quality, yes."
ME: "And is Audi going to pay for this, after my 45k mile warranty is up?"
ACS: "We'll have to wait and deal with it at that time."
ME: "Um, I'm rather speechless, are you saying that it's a known problem that has no fix, and that that Audi won't cover the ongoing costs of keeping the car running?"
ACS: "I'm saying we can't do anything for you until there's a recall or service bulletin."

So, Audifans, bail now. It is bad, very bad.

My car has been in 10 times now for service. They finally pulled the heads and blasted the carbon out of it. The last service report reads like a Stephen King novel.

I am not waiting for the class-action lawsuit.

[Tanner]

I'm not going to sound like a broken record player but this isn't anything new. It's been like this starting with the first 2.0T FSI.

Sorry, I'm not bailing to a BMW 3-series.

[torsendiffsrock]

+1. trade your s5 for a 3 series. I don't know why you think there is going to be a class action lawsuit, fsi has a number of benefits..

[MrPerfect]

I agree, it's ridiculous and Audi's response is ridiculous. But status quo. Do you have pictures of the before and after? Any and all documented details are good. Your scripted conversation doesn't do much.

[TheChef]

I like turtles.

[GSS5]

Well, it's official:

After opening a case with Audi Customer Service (ACS), and waiting four weeks for them to "research," I finally got a call back:

ACS: "Hi this is Eric from Audi Customer Service."
ME: "Hi, what did you find out?"
ACS: "I talked to several people here, and it's a fuel quality issue."
ME: "'scuse me? what do you mean by that?"
ACS: "It is a fuel quality issue."
ME: "I run nothing other than Sunoco 93, and have all the receipts. They told me not to run Mobil ever, so I don't"
ACS: "I'm not saying you run unacceptable gas, I'm saying it's a fuel quaity issue, industry-wide."
ME: "Where do you suggest I buy gas suitable for this vehicle."
ACS: "I don't know."
ME: "Well I can only buy gas at a gas station on planet Earth, so what do I do?"
ACS: "Until there's a recall or service bulletin, there's nothing we can do for you."
ME: "So, what you're saying is, I can expect my car to have serious Carbon Problems, and the only fix is to have the heads pulled off and 'de-carboned' every 10-15k miles?"
ACS: "Until the gasoline comanies improve their fuel quality, yes."
ME: "And is Audi going to pay for this, after my 45k mile warranty is up?"
ACS: "We'll have to wait and deal with it at that time."
ME: "Um, I'm rather speechless, are you saying that it's a known problem that has no fix, and that that Audi won't cover the ongoing costs of keeping the car running?"
ACS: "I'm saying we can't do anything for you until there's a recall or service bulletin."

So, Audifans, bail now. It is bad, very bad.

My car has been in 10 times now for service. They finally pulled the heads and blasted the carbon out of it. The last service report reads like a Stephen King novel.

I am not waiting for the class-action lawsuit.

You're not supposed to run Mobil with our cars? I try to alternate between that and Shell but Shell is a bit more expensive so I usually end up getting Mobil. I'd say that 75% of the time I've filled up has been with Mobil.

[JimmyBones]

I'm not going to sound like a broken record player but this isn't anything new. It's been like this starting with the first 2.0T FSI.

Sorry, I'm not bailing to a BMW 3-series.

The 2.0Ts are nothing compared to the 3.2 V6s for carbon build up.

Just to let you guys know the main reason it is such a pain to get carbon cleanings covered under warranty is Audi has only released the technical service bulletin for the 3.2 V6s that states to clean the valves with cold start misfires. Thus the only way for a tech/dealership to get paid under warranty to do the repairs is get technical assistance to tell the tech to clean the valves. I say this because I had to go through a day worth of bull shit before technical assistance would let me clean valves on a 2008 S5 two weeks ago. That CPO S5 was at 60K miles and it took three hours to clean the valves with the Audi special tool/zip ties plus I went through three cans of carb cleaner and two cans of brake clean. Talk about major carbon build up and a pain getting it off. I was amazed that air could get into the cylinders because I could barely tell one set of valves were open.

[ActivS5]

The 2.0Ts are nothing compared to the 3.2 V6s for carbon build up.

Just to let you guys know the main reason it is such a pain to get carbon cleanings covered under warranty is Audi has only released the technical service bulletin for the 3.2 V6s that states to clean the valves with cold start misfires. Thus the only way for a tech/dealership to get paid under warranty to do the repairs is get technical assistance to tell the tech to clean the valves. I say this because I had to go through a day worth of bull shit before technical assistance would let me clean valves on a 2008 S5 two weeks ago. That CPO S5 was at 60K miles and it took three hours to clean the valves with the Audi special tool/zip ties plus I went through three cans of carb cleaner and two cans of brake clean. Talk about major carbon build up and a pain getting it off. I was amazed that air could get into the cylinders because I could barely tell one set of valves were open.

Wow, That's pretty bad. What were the symptoms of build up? Did they get a CEL?

I picked up my S5 CPO about 3 weeks ago and have been wondering about the build up issue.

[JBM]

Well fuck me...I was looking into one of these. I guess I would have to completely redo the emissions on my S5 in order to get it not to be a POS. I want one sooooo bad but if this is going to be an issue I might as well rock that 1967 fastback I have always wanted. Not good...damn it is getting harder to stay true to Audi.

[Huey52]

I installed a catch can in my RX-8 (filter-vented to atmosphere) as the rotary engine similarly suffered from power robbing carbon buildup. Frequent high rev's and periodic Seafoam flushes were similar safeguards.

[Huey52]

Mobil is on Audi's approved fuel list ("Top Tier" gasolines with detergent). http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

You're not supposed to run Mobil with our cars? I try to alternate between that and Shell but Shell is a bit more expensive so I usually end up getting Mobil. I'd say that 75% of the time I've filled up has been with Mobil.

[Huey52]

Related: my January build A5 2.0T deposits some carbon on my garage floor most every morning cold start. I wonder if Audi has introduced some new software routine, or at only 2k miles the ECU is still learning the fuel trims and is typically cold-start running rich?

[JimmyBones]

Wow, That's pretty bad. What were the symptoms of build up? Did they get a CEL?

I picked up my S5 CPO about 3 weeks ago and have been wondering about the build up issue.

The customer had a check engine light on with multiple misfire faults and it ran rough/misfired until the engine was warmed up.

One of the things that technical assistance told me to do was a software flash to update the engine control module and after running the update the engine went right back to misfiring.

I have to say Audi has gotten better with the V8s because the RS4s were bad about carbon build up accumulating fast but the newer V8s take a lot longer to cause misfires. I can't say anything about fuel economy or lack of power over time with a newer V8 because I don't own one yet.

[lascivious]

So, I talked to my Service Person about this the other day, what to do and how to avoid it.

My person ackowledged the issue and knew about it (that's good). Said to use top tier fuels (I do anyways). Recommended fuel additive BG44k every 4 tanks (as it wouldn't hurt anyways). Recommended driving it hard. Said they are seeing it worse in the 3.2's than the 4.2s. Etc..

Good news is that they said, if it starts idling rough or gives you any symptoms bring it in. I guess the proof will be in the pudding. I'll post again when I take it in for the inevitable carbon clean up.

[danS5]

So, I talked to my Service Person about this the other day, what to do and how to avoid it.

My person ackowledged the issue and knew about it (that's good). Said to use top tier fuels (I do anyways). Recommended fuel additive BG44k every 4 tanks (as it wouldn't hurt anyways). Recommended driving it hard. Said they are seeing it worse in the 3.2's than the 4.2s. Etc..

Good news is that they said, if it starts idling rough or gives you any symptoms bring it in. I guess the proof will be in the pudding. I'll post again when I take it in for the inevitable carbon clean up.

I'm at 18K+ right now, and I was told by my tech to pick up a fuel additive as well, but not that stuff. I got this directly form my dealership:



He didn't mentioned how often I should apply it (how many tanks), but he claimed that this is what they use when a car is throwing engine codes and to see if ti corrects the problem.

[danS5]

So, I talked to my Service Person about this the other day, what to do and how to avoid it.

My person ackowledged the issue and knew about it (that's good). Said to use top tier fuels (I do anyways). Recommended fuel additive BG44k every 4 tanks (as it wouldn't hurt anyways). Recommended driving it hard. Said they are seeing it worse in the 3.2's than the 4.2s. Etc..

Good news is that they said, if it starts idling rough or gives you any symptoms bring it in. I guess the proof will be in the pudding. I'll post again when I take it in for the inevitable carbon clean up.

I'm at 18K+ right now, and I was told by my tech to pick up a fuel additive as well, but not that stuff. I got this directly from my dealer:



He didn't mentioned how often I should apply it (how many tanks), but he claimed that this is what they use when a car is throwing engine codes and to see if it corrects the problem.

[32spoke]

Carbon build up causes an engine to become inefficient, plus will also contribute to killing the emission device known as the catalytic converter. Maybe discuss escalating this with what state agency that is involved with smog testing vehicles. In california, I would contact the California air resources board, and explain the problem. hopefully they take up the issue. The state of california took issue with the GM 4.3 V6 engine. Though it's a 5.7 engne minus two cylinders, it created too much NOX emissions from it's design. California wanted those engines out of their state. California confronted GM about the engine and I don't know what came of it, but I guess what I'm driving at is that the carbon build up can ruin the cats and that's a no-no!

[spaniard]

S5 FSI only???

[Tanner]

Everything Audi here is FSI.

Basically the early FSI and TFSI engines -owners of these are early adopters. Good read:

http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/06/...-adopters.html

Seems that the new supercharged engine, the buildup is substantially less based on what I've read.

[todd1010]

Here's my S5 at 30k miles driven pretty hard with nothing but Shell, Exxon, Sunoco gas. I've never had a CEL come on but usually experience hesitation at first start up, like the car is falling on it's face.

[MonzaA5]

I find it interesting that carbon buildup doesn't seem to affect the new 2.0T and 3.0T engines. I wonder what Audi did to fix the problem.

[todd1010]

I find it interesting that carbon buildup doesn't seem to affect the new 2.0T and 3.0T engines. I wonder what Audi did to fix the problem.

I think they (manufacturers) are putting a injector to do the cleaning.

[buiyahkah]

I heard they made some changes to the 2010 engines to help prevent the carbon build up. Is this true?

[todd1010]

I heard they made some changes to the 2010 engines to help prevent the carbon build up. Is this true?

I believe they put in an injector to clean the valves on the Q5's but not sure about any other engine.

[buiyahkah]

I believe they put in an injector to clean the valves on the Q5's but not sure about any other engine.

So I guess there's a good possibility that I'll need to get mine cleaned as well?

[Alkivar]

You're not supposed to run Mobil with our cars? I try to alternate between that and Shell but Shell is a bit more expensive so I usually end up getting Mobil. I'd say that 75% of the time I've filled up has been with Mobil.

bullshit you arent supposed to run Mobil.

Audi says run with a top tier brand listed here when asked: http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html Mobil is listed there.

The PDF from the Audi of America website lists Exxon but not Mobil... but guess what... SAME COMPANY/SAME GAS...

[MonzaA5]

I believe they put in an injector to clean the valves on the Q5's

No they didn't.

[illusive45]

Have you guys paid any attention to the hundreds of FSI carbon buildup threads on all the Audi forums??? The problem has really nothing to do with the gas you put in your car and everything to do with oil vapor and the inherent problems of current direct injection design flaws. Here's very informative thread on Bob the Oil guy forums:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1325647

Yes, it is highly suggested you run a top tier gas, but that has nothing to do with the carbon buildup issue. Get it straight, ppls. And yeah, be vigilant about your oil changes and the type of oil you use!

[Margee53089]

I just had the engine malfunction light go on at 42,000 after my friend, the sheriff, had my car out this weekend and got it up to 140 mph. I thought he wrecked something so I took it in and they had to take the intake manifold off and clean the valves. I went back into my records and found the same thing happened at 13, 000 miles but they didn't clean the valves just noted the misfiring of the engine. I am really mad about this...shouldn't you expect better from a car that cost $60,000????

[UbiquitouS5]

It sure hurts to look so good.

[Tanner]

Us 2.0T guys ... been there done that a long time ago and still going through it. Regular cleaning every 80,000-100,000 km. Fortunately forced induction delays the issue. 40,000 km since the last cleaning, engine is misfiring but not bad enough to throw a CEL but it goes away after a few minutes of driving.

Read that RS4 guys have noticed that after getting a newer factory ECU program, the engine temps is a bit higher. Whether that delays the buildup or not, who knows, but it's not going to eliminate the issue.

It does seem that the newer FSI engines are doing better, not sure what was done though and it's too soon to tell how long it takes for the buildup to get to a certain point where the misfires begin.

as for that comment about a misfire at 13,000 miles... it could be anything. If the misfire is cleared and doesn't come back, then it's not enough for Audi to do anything really. If the misfiring continues, then they'll go through a set of steps to try and resolve the issue (ie.: dirty/faulty injectors, bad coilpack, spark plugs, etc.)

[UbiquitouS5]

Sometimes the CEL light comes on my car when i turn it on and goes away as I start driving (car has 8700 miles)....is this an early sign of carbon buildup?

[Tanner]

I don't think it's related to buildup. If a CEL comes on right away when you turn on the car and it goes away later, I would interpret that as something else. Find somebody with a vagcom cable and get the codes. Or get the dealer to look at it as you are under warranty. Obviously because the CEL is no longer there and the dealer needs to see this for them to do something, try video taping what you see then show it to them. Usually that is enough for them to look at it.

Regarding intake buildup, when it's bad enough, the engine will misfire. And for a CEL to get thrown, the number of consecutive misfires needs to reach a certain threshold before a flashing CEL occurs (believe it was 100 on my 2.0T as I was watching the misfire counter using the rosstech tool). Of course, if you get a big misfire (like a coilpack failed), the flashing CEL will come on a lot quicker. The flashing CEL will then remain solid and it usually doesn't go away unless it's manually cleared. This all based on my experience.

[UbiquitouS5]

Tanner: Sorry for newbie question, but when a car misfires, is it still drivable?