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  1. #1
    Veteran Member Four Rings NWS4Guy's Avatar
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    Direct Injection and build-up issues

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    Yes, back to this topic again. I got my new R&T in the mail and there is an article which they also have online already. I'll link and paste it below, but does anyone know of there are any kinds of changes Audi has definitely done to combat this yet?

    I bolded the part where Ford (Yes FORD) has addressed this issue apparently in their DI engines already.

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=8464

    Direct Injection Longevity
    We are sure to see more gasoline direct injection and gasoline direct-injection turbocharged engines in the near future. Will these engines be as reliable and trouble-free as the port-injection engines so common today? Will they run hotter and would it be better to use only synthetic oil in these engines? Are there any disadvantages to these engines other than that they cost more?

    Richard Gilbert
    Souderton, Pennsylvania


    Spraying cold gasoline directly into the combustion chamber cools the intake charge, reducing the risk of detonation. This allows a higher compression ratio, blower boost or both, and that is where the extra engine efficiency comes from.

    Thus, by itself, DI runs cooler and makes no special requirements on engine materials or longevity, so those parts remain unchanged. From that standpoint, DI engines should prove as reliable as traditional port fuel-injection powerplants. There is some increased complexity to DI, namely the high-pressure fuel pump (over 2000 psi), but considering diesel fuel pumps run at much higher pressures and have proven reliable, it seems logical that gasoline direct-injection pumps will also be reliable.

    Adding turbocharging doesn't change DI's cooling effect, but does bring on the secondary conditions of increased weight, parts count and underhood heat retention.

    Ford tells us these secondary effects are well controlled in EcoBoost applications. The turbos are small, packaged very low on the engine, water-cooled and don't have much heat-retaining mass. Again, diesel experience is favorable in these regards as well, but we'd keep an eye on any rubber parts near the turbos for heat degradation.

    One DI concern is oil residue on the manifold side of the intake valve. Such residue comes from the PCV system and is continuously washed away by gasoline detergents in port fuel-injected engines. In a DI engine, however, the fuel is injected downstream of the intake valve so no valve washing takes place. Ford has found extra oil filtering of the PCV air is required; this is done with a media-type device mounted externally to the engine, typically atop a valve cover. There seem to be no special oil requirements.

    If the intake valves aren't washed by DI, the cylinder walls might be. The resulting high ring wear was likely more of an issue in vintage direct-injected gasoline engines (WWII Mercedes aircraft V-12s and 300SL variants come to mind) where the fuel spray was relatively crudely controlled compared to today's electronically governed, multi-strike applications. We'd think there is precious little fuel "waste" to hit the cylinder walls given today's emphasis on reduced emissions and fuel consumption.

    Bottom line: We believe the new crop of turbocharged, direct gasoline-injected engines offers a rare jump forward in both power and economy at mainly the cost of higher initial investment. Durability should be on a par with current gasoline engines, with the possible exception of rare additional maintenance to accessories such as the fuel pump, filter media or turbos.

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Audi has done squat.

    Lexus IS350 has toyota's 2nd generation Direct Injection system, which now includes port injection in addition to direct injection (for certain modes of operation)
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Two Rings
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Quote Originally Posted by UGwagen View Post
    Audi has done squat.

    Lexus IS350 has toyota's 2nd generation Direct Injection system, which now includes port injection in addition to direct injection (for certain modes of operation)
    And that was in 2006.

    The 4GR-FSE (IS250) doesn't have port injection though. So it seems they might not think it's an issue for the build-up, but rather as a means to keep port injection as an option where it is more efficient than direct injection.

    The ECU maps vary the ratio between the two depending on situation. IE, WOT, port injection will mix more fully with the intake air before combustion compared to DI.

  4. #4
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    This issue was a major issue int he 2.0T FSI engine, and many have equipped the Catch can. hopefully someone will come with a kit for the S4 and other DI engines, or Audi would implement a port injection to the engines.

  5. #5
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    I've seen photos of the inside of an intake manifold from a VW 2.0T engine with around 50,000 miles on it. It was pretty gunked up. The PCV on the 2.0T is fairly crude and the membrane is also prone to rupture. This causes boost to leak back into the crankcase. So there's two problems, really. Dirty manifolds and leaky membranes. Kinky ;)

    I'm really surprised that Audi/VW have done so little in regards to buildup in the manifold. Ford is right and it would only take a small, user-serviceable filter before the PCV valve to keep oil from venting with the air. Or even an oil catch-can.

    Maybe the aftermarket needs to come to the rescue here... I would definitely buy one if it means keeping my intake manifold clean and sexy.

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  6. #6
    Veteran Member Four Rings riegeraudi's Avatar
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    There are catch cans out for purchase and correct me if I am wrong but I don't think they are model specific.
    Also from what I understand Audi did introduce the fix that lexus has on their cars on the later 2.0T engines and the new engines in the S4. But it would be great if you guys can ask your mechanics to confirm this as this was given to me by another enthusiast but I have no proof.

  7. #7
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Quote Originally Posted by - Jeremy - View Post
    I've seen photos of the inside of an intake manifold from a VW 2.0T engine with around 50,000 miles on it. It was pretty gunked up. The PCV on the 2.0T is fairly crude and the membrane is also prone to rupture. This causes boost to leak back into the crankcase. So there's two problems, really. Dirty manifolds and leaky membranes. Kinky ;)

    I'm really surprised that Audi/VW have done so little in regards to buildup in the manifold. Ford is right and it would only take a small, user-serviceable filter before the PCV valve to keep oil from venting with the air. Or even an oil catch-can.

    Maybe the aftermarket needs to come to the rescue here... I would definitely buy one if it means keeping my intake manifold clean and sexy.

    Get cracking, Mr. Aftermarket!

    - Jeremy -
    However, the PCV on the RS4 engine is very complex, which creates 4 vortexes to filter out the fine oil mist----in the end, it still happens.

    There are theories that ester addtitives in oils will reduce the gunk. Also a very small amount of fuel actually does hit the intake valves-- so certain fuel additives can help as well.
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  8. #8
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Quote Originally Posted by riegeraudi View Post
    There are catch cans out for purchase and correct me if I am wrong but I don't think they are model specific.
    Also from what I understand Audi did introduce the fix that lexus has on their cars on the later 2.0T engines and the new engines in the S4. But it would be great if you guys can ask your mechanics to confirm this as this was given to me by another enthusiast but I have no proof.
    I would like to know this as well, I heard this rumour, but don't know if it's for sure.

  9. #9
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Check the 2.0T forums over at vwvortex/fourtitude, there are several major discussions on the subject. I believe some changes were made to the 2nd generation 2.0T to mitigate this issue, but I don't recall what specifically was done nor how effective it has/has not been.

    Several of the guys over there have pulled their heads and manually cleaned, but this is only temporary. I do know that I have used VW's OEM cleaner in my 2.0T at around 55k and it made a significant difference in idle and power. I've been running it every 5k now.

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Four Rings riegeraudi's Avatar
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    I think the best bet is probably to run a catch can for insurance.

  11. #11
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Quote Originally Posted by tgrundke View Post
    Check the 2.0T forums over at vwvortex/fourtitude, there are several major discussions on the subject. I believe some changes were made to the 2nd generation 2.0T to mitigate this issue, but I don't recall what specifically was done nor how effective it has/has not been.

    Several of the guys over there have pulled their heads and manually cleaned, but this is only temporary. I do know that I have used VW's OEM cleaner in my 2.0T at around 55k and it made a significant difference in idle and power. I've been running it every 5k now.
    Do you have the part number for this OEM VW Cleaner?

  12. #12
    Veteran Member Four Rings NWS4Guy's Avatar
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Resurrecting this!

    I spoke with the service dept at my dealership about this. They were a little shy about saying they knew there was an issue with the PCV causing buildup in the intake and specifically on the valves, but said they had heard some people found issues related to this.

    I asked if anything like a filter, catch can, or redesign had happened with the B8 S4 engine or even the 2.0T B8 engine to combat this. They said:

    "There has been no changes or design to take these deposits into account, nor are there any filters or catch cans in place."

    So I guess we might all want to look for a catch can to be safe than sorry?

  13. #13
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    I bought this about 10,000 miles ago and it worked wonders on my 2.0T A3. I know that I ordered it from WorldImpex.com, but I cannot find the part/order information for it anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akatsuki... View Post
    Do you have the part number for this OEM VW Cleaner?

  14. #14
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    I definitely recommend reading through the 2.0 FSI thread at vwvortex.com as this has been discussed, tested and beaten to death over there. The long and short of it is that people have tried seafoaming through one of the vacuum lines, they've run the VW engine cleaner, they've pulled the head and manually scrubbed everything...and now there are several options for catch cans.

    The consensus, from what I can tell, for the 2.0T at least is this: the original FSI motor has major carbon deposit issues that only a catch can will fix. A lot of people (myself included) have had success using the OEM engine cleaner every 3,000 - 5,000 miles and/or seafoaming through the vac line. This, however, only helps reduce the problem, not eliminate it.

    Don't quote me on this, but there also seems to be a belief that the newer TFSI motor corrects a lot of the issues the FSI had, though it's only been on the market for about a year so data is relatively small.

    Quote Originally Posted by riegeraudi View Post
    I think the best bet is probably to run a catch can for insurance.

  15. #15
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    n00b question: what's a catch can and where/how is it installed?

  16. #16
    Veteran Member Four Rings NWS4Guy's Avatar
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Quote Originally Posted by mellow_sparky View Post
    n00b question: what's a catch can and where/how is it installed?
    Catch can goes after the PCV valve and before the air from it is recirculated back into the intake. It catches vaporized particles of oil and unburned fuel and reside that the PCV circulates back in to be re-burned again. It's an environmental requirement to have PCV since the 60's or so.

    Problem is that in FSI cars, the fuel is injected right inside the cylinder, not over the intake valve. Since the valve is never washed with fuel on FSI cars, they tend to build up carbon on the intakes, restricing the airflow/swirl pattern, and robbing power, finally ending up in misfires on the cylinders.

    Catch can is like a sponge and takes these out of the airflow, every 10K miles or so you can drain that gunk out of a valve in the bottom of it and let it refill again. They cost anywhere from 100-300 bucks for nice ones - much cheaper than pulling intakes off every 10K miles and cleaning them. Especially since on this car, you have to pull the SC to even do that I bet.

  17. #17
    Established Member Two Rings JMUCI's Avatar
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    I know BSH Performance has three different catch can kits available: Street, Competition, and Race Catch Can Kits.

    http://www.bshspeedshop.com/store/home.php?cat=1120

    They are for the 2.0T engine, but you could inquire if they would work with the 3.0L engine. I definitely plan to get one of these kits for my 2009 A4 as I have seen and heard way too many horror stories about gunk buildup in Audi/VW Direct Injection engines. I have also heard that the BG Fuel/Air Induction Service gives a good cleaning as well.

    http://www.bgfindashop.com/bgservices/fuelair.htm

    The video in the link actually specifically shows the service being done on an A4.
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  18. #18
    Veteran Member Four Rings NWS4Guy's Avatar
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Thanks JMUCI,
    I've started a correspondence with Eurojet Racing to ask about our engine. They have already said they have something which will work, they want to see the engine bay and layout to make a bracket for it. I'll have to see about a trip over the mountains to them at some point unless there is someone in the Spokane, WA aera :)

  19. #19
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    I think all Audis now come with direct injection - that would be surprising to me that they'd use this across the board without addressing something that is a known problem (i.e. if everyone is coming in at 50K miles with valve problems I'd think they'd address it).

  20. #20
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Here's a Picture of the In and Out Ports of my Catch can when I drained it last night off my 2.0T




    Last picture is a drain I made a while back. I usually drain every 300 km since I'm afraid of freezing issues in the winter



    Look at how bad it is for a 4 cyclinder engine... and imagine your 3.0T engines running even more power and with a larger intake manifold.. how much worse could it be??
    I'm very interested in getting an S4 for my next car.. but if there isnt an OEM or aftermarket solution to this I don't think I'd come back to VW/Audi...

    On the side note..

    Instead of a kit, can't someone find the PCV lines on the 3.0T engine and hook up a catch can?

  21. #21
    Veteran Member Four Rings NWS4Guy's Avatar
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Great post with pics - this is what you DO NOT want in your intake manifold. EVER. The Catch can, catches this and you can dispose of it properly. If the design worked where it would truly recycle and burn this, it would be ok, but it doesn't for FSI engines :(

  22. #22
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Sorry for the mild threadjack, but I notice that the carbon buildup issue is always discussed for forced induction engines, but I've never seen anybody discuss it for the NA 3.2L engine. Since the 3.2 is also an FSI engine, shouldn't it theoretically suffer from the same buildup problem?
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  23. #23
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Quote Originally Posted by NWS4Guy View Post
    Great post with pics - this is what you DO NOT want in your intake manifold. EVER. The Catch can, catches this and you can dispose of it properly. If the design worked where it would truly recycle and burn this, it would be ok, but it doesn't for FSI engines :(
    NP. We're all FSI engines here.. figure I share the wealth of info and pics
    If you're good with DIY you can easily get a Carbing Catch can and hook it up yourself. I picked up one for a friend's GTI and he's ordering the PCV plates so I Can hook it up for him. Carbing Catch cans and some Forge catch cans are Universal for people who hook it up in their cars and aren't using specific kits. It may not look as clean or be easy to install, but still does the job for a lot less money, and still does the same thing.

    Heres a pic of my catch can


    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesA5 View Post
    Sorry for the mild threadjack, but I notice that the carbon buildup issue is always discussed for forced induction engines, but I've never seen anybody discuss it for the NA 3.2L engine. Since the 3.2 is also an FSI engine, shouldn't it theoretically suffer from the same buildup problem?
    I believe it does. Bobtheoilguy had a thread about a RS4 2007 with major build up issues I think

  24. #24
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Akatsuki... View Post
    I believe it does. Bobtheoilguy had a thread about a RS4 2007 with major build up issues I think
    Yeah, I had seen that thread. But I haven't seen anything about the 3.2 and was wondering if the V8 in the RS4 had a particular configuration that made the problem worse for it than other NA engines. Searches for other discussions on the topic almost always are centered on turbo FSI engines.
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  25. #25
    Veteran Member Four Rings NWS4Guy's Avatar
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesA5 View Post
    Sorry for the mild threadjack, but I notice that the carbon buildup issue is always discussed for forced induction engines, but I've never seen anybody discuss it for the NA 3.2L engine. Since the 3.2 is also an FSI engine, shouldn't it theoretically suffer from the same buildup problem?
    They absolutely do, FSI is Fuel Stratified Injection (which is direct into the cylinder injection of the fuel), so whether the engine is FI (Forced Induction)or not, it is affected. You only need to look a little to see the complaints:

    http://www.audiforums.com/forum/show....php?p=1005085

    Any car without either some sort of PVC filtration or a secondary injector to bathe the intake valve occasionally to rid it of the deposits will have this issue.

    Irony is that Ford's new FSI's don't have the issue, as they have new inline filters for the PVC lines which are replaced every so often instead of a catch can you can install one for the life of the car and drain occasionally.

  26. #26
    Established Member Two Rings nuklearmaniac86's Avatar
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    I have a Hypothesis that a catch can and a "mild" W/M injection system will solve most engine build up problems, even for N/A engines. The catch can to catch the oil blowby and the W/M injection to clean the intake manifold/valves that direct injection can't clean. I'm sure this has been said before and maybe even tested.

    BUT I'm not able to test it because I do not have a direct injection vehicle.
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  27. #27
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesA5 View Post
    Sorry for the mild threadjack, but I notice that the carbon buildup issue is always discussed for forced induction engines, but I've never seen anybody discuss it for the NA 3.2L engine. Since the 3.2 is also an FSI engine, shouldn't it theoretically suffer from the same buildup problem?
    Hobbes if you end up putting one on your A5, let me know what you used and how much of a bitch it was please... thinking of doing it to mine as well.
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  28. #28
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    No one mentioned the BMW engines. My understanding is that the 335 also uses the DI engine, and I have not seen any complaints over there, nothing but the HPF pump...
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  29. #29
    Veteran Member Four Rings L0U's Avatar
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    335s burn oil.....and where there is burnt oil, there is a crankcase vent issue 90% of the time. Forced induction don't seem to see the reduction in hp as much, so it is not as bothersome as in say an rs4.

    meth injection may be the ticket for more than just detonation fixes. I think it would be just enough cleaning for the valves as a side benifit.
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  30. #30
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Quote Originally Posted by L0U View Post
    335s burn oil.....and where there is burnt oil, there is a crankcase vent issue 90% of the time. Forced induction don't seem to see the reduction in hp as much, so it is not as bothersome as in say an rs4.

    meth injection may be the ticket for more than just detonation fixes. I think it would be just enough cleaning for the valves as a side benifit.
    Actually, yeah. I recall seeing a post on the GTI forums about this. A guy was using water/meth and he posted pics of his intake manifold. Looked sparkling clean inside. Might not be such a bad idea...

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  31. #31
    Veteran Member Four Rings L0U's Avatar
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    or we could fog some nitrous in there every 500kms with all the additional fuel sprayed in with it. I think the meth parts are about the same costs as a top end catch tank. Might be a great solution paired up with a chip tune that runs big boost antways.
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  32. #32
    Veteran Member Four Rings riegeraudi's Avatar
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Would meth kits be legal and would the extra hp with a tune tip the torque over the limit of what a S-Tronic could take?
    I probably going to buy this catch can anyone else interested or any other ones you guys are looking at that could be better?

    http://www.42draftdesigns.com/catego...catchcans.html

  33. #33
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Meth is legal. Without software you'd prolly have minimal gains, I wouldn't worry about the dsg

  34. #34
    Veteran Member Four Rings L0U's Avatar
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    catch cans in 20 below freezing can make for a ton of moisture, then ice in them. Once blocked....yer doomed. Keeping them de-iced might be a pain for us canadians.
    2013 Daytona S8, B&O, Bk alcantara, Solar, 360 camera, adaptive cruise,
    2015 Rhodium Macan Turbo, BK alcantara, Loaded.

  35. #35
    Veteran Member Four Rings riegeraudi's Avatar
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    thanks lou nice to know than we canadians don't really have any options I guess.

  36. #36
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Quote Originally Posted by L0U View Post
    catch cans in 20 below freezing can make for a ton of moisture, then ice in them. Once blocked....yer doomed. Keeping them de-iced might be a pain for us canadians.
    Well, if you want to keep your car in tip top shape you have to keep up with the maintenance

    Quote Originally Posted by riegeraudi View Post
    thanks lou nice to know than we canadians don't really have any options I guess.
    Draining the catch can is easy. I do it every 300km or so. takes about 10 mins.

  37. #37
    Veteran Member Four Rings riegeraudi's Avatar
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Akatsuki... View Post
    Well, if you want to keep your car in tip top shape you have to keep up with the maintenance



    Draining the catch can is easy. I do it every 300km or so. takes about 10 mins.
    So you are in T.O so am I so you have had no problems with it in the winter? Has you ever had it freeze before? If it does freeze will it harm the engine?

  38. #38
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    Quote Originally Posted by riegeraudi View Post
    So you are in T.O so am I so you have had no problems with it in the winter? Has you ever had it freeze before? If it does freeze will it harm the engine?
    No Issues what so ever.

    People had freezing issues cause they didn't drain it consistantly, and had the steelwool version of the catch can, where some steel wool had water in it and froze over time.

    If you drain it consistently it shouldn't be an issue. I have a really large catch can, so as long as i drain it every so often it wont be a problem. No issues here.

    I'll keep you updated with this as it gets even colder. So far I've been draining every 300 and no issues. Once it stays permanently under 0, I'll drain it every time I come home. I park my car in an underground parking, which stays around 5 degrees, so even if there is a bit of freezing it should melt. After a drive your catch can is usually hot, so it's a good time to drain.

  39. #39
    Veteran Member Four Rings riegeraudi's Avatar
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    So which one are you using?

  40. #40
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    Re: Direct Injection and build-up issues

    BSH Stg 2 + or as they call it now The competition Can

    http://www.bshspeedshop.com/store/pr...7&cat=0&page=1

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