FAQ: VR6 -12V & 24V Info sharing

[Caddy7]

I agree with you. I bought the S4 for its engine. If I didn't have an S4 I would definitely buy a cheap B5 A4 and do this.

When I was shopping around for the S4 5 years ago I thought they were kind of pricey. I always wondered if it would be cheaper to buy a B5 A4 and swap a vr6 in it but I thought nah it would be too much of a headache. Bravo 034 for making this happen.

+1

If I would swap motor it would be into a model that did not have a potent motor in it already. Maybe put the VR6T into a A5 or a B7A4 Avant would be more tempting for me...

As for making use of AWD, they sold VW GTI VR6 as "syncro" (AWD) in europe so that would be an easy mod to make the GTI AWD. It will be lighter and even faster then a B5S4.

[wdbdy2000s4]

+1

If I would swap motor it would be into a model that did not have a potent motor in it already. Maybe put the VR6T into a A5 or a B7A4 Avant would be more tempting for me...

As for making use of AWD, they sold VW GTI VR6 as "syncro" (AWD) in europe so that would be an easy mod to make the GTI AWD. It will be lighter and even faster then a B5S4.

depends what gen GTI...the tunnel on Mk3s won't fit the drivetrain so you need to weld in a new one from a rallye which invovles cutting out half the floor. Plus the rear end isn't a direct bolt up for the mk3. No clue about a MK4 though.

[Caddy7]

depends what gen GTI...the tunnel on Mk3s won't fit the drivetrain so you need to weld in a new one from a rallye which invovles cutting out half the floor. Plus the rear end isn't a direct bolt up for the mk3. No clue about a MK4 though.

Im talking like this one:
http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/sh...n&pageNumber=1

[vdub203]

thats a euro mk3 syncro diff floors than na spec models but look it up on vwvortex there's a few floating around that did conversions. also canada had passat syncros and alot of parts can be used from that along with a audi tt trans that mounts to the vr

[wdbdy2000s4]

Im talking like this one:
http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/sh...n&pageNumber=1

That's what I was talking about, different floor, there is nowhere for the driveshaft to go on a US spec....and that is the longest URL ever. haha

[Issam@INA]

Congrats to the 2 S4 owners stepping up to the plate :D

[RusS4]

So will someone figure out how to use the factory ecu already???

[dubiraq05]

so what kinda modification needs to be done to run a/c on a 12v motor? if that could be tackled i think this would seal the deal on everything.... lets go 034 throw us some info so we can all start handing over our bank account to you!!!

[wdbdy2000s4]

so what kinda modification needs to be done to run a/c on a 12v motor? if that could be tackled i think this would seal the deal on everything.... lets go 034 throw us some info so we can all start handing over our bank account to you!!!

this:

There is if you get creative with a driver side engine mount design.

[Caddy7]

How much power is the VR6 capable of before needing internals done? (rods and such)

[dubiraq05]

this:

dosn't the 12v have different mounts than the 24v?
12v=034 cradle/24v uses oem mounts

anyone have pics up close of the engine installed in a b5 car?

i guess what im looking for is a general answer on what needs to be modified with the motor cradle....

[dubiraq05]

How much power is the VR6 capable of before needing internals done? (rods and such)

roughly 100hp per cylinder

[AudiA4_20T]

thats a bit high, but they are stout motors

[NYEuroTuner]

Issam,

Couple quick questions, hope I dont get flamed. lol


Alert

<---Noob questions

1.How do we go about keeping all the electronics in the car working? Alarm dash etc. Do we have to keep the stock S4 ecu for that? Or do you sell a kit so "almost" everything plugs in.?

2.And what about the throttle? since the s4 was drive by wire, and I'm planning to go with a 12v drive by cable , what needs to be done to get that pedal to work with the 12v?


3.And regarding to the 12v and its mounting situation, do any special mounts need to be welded since only the 24v has all those holes? or does your kit provide the proper brackets needed so everything keeping the engine in place is bolt on?


And final question.


4.Can someone safely run a 12v Vr6 non turbo in our cars? Or do you think the awd system puts too much stress on the motor?


I want to drop in a vr and get it running smoothly non turbo for now, and then go boost in the months to come.

thanks for your time.

P.S i tried skimming through the thread seeing if anyone asked the same questions Im asking, sorry if maybe I missed them.

[dubiraq05]

thats a bit high, but they are stout motors

that info i got from issam himself

[Papa Stone]

Issam,

Couple quick questions, hope I dont get flamed. lol


Alert

<---Noob questions

How do we go about keeping all the electronics in the car working? Alarm dash etc. Do we have to keep the stock S4 ecu for that? Or do you sell a kit so "almost" everything plugs in.?

And what about the throttle? since the s4 was drive by wire, and I'm planning to go with a 12v drive by cable , what needs to be done to get that pedal to work with the 12v?


And regarding to the 12v and its mounting situation, do any special mounts need to be welded since only the 24v has all those holes? or does your kit provide the proper brackets needed so everything keeping the engine in place is bolt on?


And final question.


Can someone safely run a 12v Vr6 non turbo in our cars? Or do you think the awd system puts too much stress on the motor?


I want to drop in a vr and get it running smoothly non turbo for now, and then go boost in the months to come.

thanks for your time.

P.S i tried skimming through the thread seeing if anyone asked the same questions Im asking, sorry if maybe I missed them.

I don't see why not! They run 4 motion in europe with a golf (earlier stated in the thread and on this page!!)

[blmlozz]

I don't see why not! They run 4 motion in europe with a golf (earlier stated in the thread and on this page!!)

the VR6 should have no problem running the car non-turbo.. It'll be slow, but if a 170horse 12V V6 can move these things, then I'm sure a lighter 172hp VR6 can too.

[wdbdy2000s4]

yeah...a4s come with 2.8s....enough said.

[NYEuroTuner]

Any word on the other questions?

[Papa Stone]

Thats 600hp.. That is serious HP..

I seen 532 wheel on a 12V with spacer and a Microtech stand alone running a GT35r

Crazy stuff my friend crazy stuff

[Issam@INA]

1.How do we go about keeping all the electronics in the car working? Alarm dash etc. Do we have to keep the stock S4 ecu for that? Or do you sell a kit so "almost" everything plugs in.?
.

Well you could do it that way...
i.e. STock S4 ECU and cluster to keep the dash happy and standalone or MKIV R32 harness and ECU to keep the engine the way you want.

2.And what about the throttle? since the s4 was drive by wire, and I'm planning to go with a 12v drive by cable , what needs to be done to get that pedal to work with the 12v?
.

You need to get an AEB Audi A4 B5 1997 Accelerator pedal - we have these in stock.

3.And regarding to the 12v and its mounting situation, do any special mounts need to be welded since only the 24v has all those holes? or does your kit provide the proper brackets needed so everything keeping the engine in place is bolt on?
.

We provide a 12V mounting kit if you want but it is the kit from our race car.

4.Can someone safely run a 12v Vr6 non turbo in our cars? Or do you think the awd system puts too much stress on the motor?
.

Stress on a VR6? HA!
The 12V Motor is probably the most solid VW motor next to the 8V from the late 80's.
You cant kill a VR6 engine if you tried....
electrics on the other hand will last about 4 miles.

[Papa Stone]

Great stuff you should be getting a call by next month to purchase all the engine stuff for my built

[NYEuroTuner]

Perfect, thank you Issam!!!!

Last Question, which is the recommended route to go?

12 valve?

Or 24?

I know Chris Green did it with a 12v on his S, and So did you guys with your A4.

I'm asking only because 12 valves are so much more abundant and cheaper than the 24v.

And I'm not doubting either vr6 engine, I just want to do this right.


Again, I appreciate your time, and your answers.

[viperbl]

Hi guys,

Been following this thread with great interest. Lot of good work so far and has got me very interested indeed :)

I would be keen to see any dyno sheets, no so much interested in big HP figures as such but more how much torque we are getting and from what RPM …

Cheers Rich

[NYEuroTuner]

Hi guys,

Been following this thread with great interest. Lot of good work so far and has got me very interested indeed :)

I would be keen to see any dyno sheets, no so much interested in big HP figures as such but more how much torque we are getting and from what RPM …

Cheers Rich

Maybe these can help you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvcRkUGx8Fc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjAWrq1d8NQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=097Ao_x8MEA

[Issam@INA]

Perfect, thank you Issam!!!!

Last Question, which is the recommended route to go?

12 valve?

Or 24?

I know Chris Green did it with a 12v on his S, and So did you guys with your A4.

I'm asking only because 12 valves are so much more abundant and cheaper than the 24v.

And I'm not doubting either vr6 engine, I just want to do this right.


Again, I appreciate your time, and your answers.

I personally am a fan of the 24V VR6 motor due to its ability to be somewhat of an "OEM" type swap right down to the motor mount brackets.

[revhards4]

Issam, when you guys make a harness for a 24v VR6 swap can you pin it out to an AEM EMS? What kind of info would you need for a harness like that, pin outs for the AEM box?

[blacksrt4]

Sorry for the ignorant newb questions, but I have a few:

1. is there a significant difference in the B5 S4 driveline versus the A4 driveline? (aside from the 5 spd versus 6 spd manual).

2. Are either one going to be equally strong when handling significant amounts of power? 600awhp?

3. Can the B5 S4 6 speed mate directly to the rest of the A4 driveline?

I only ask because the caption on one of the videos above is "Eurotuner GP wrap up of our ground-up build of a 2001 Audi A4. We mated a VW VR6 12v motor to a S4 driveline to make for one of the countries fastest A4's!"

Thanks

[RusS4]

So Issam how long so you think it will be before you make a harness so you can just keep your stock ECU and get a tune?

[andream88]

Originally Posted by Wizard-of-OD
2.8 24V VR6 Engine - 1500 USD (high) to 1000 USD (low).
Manifold - can use a y-pipe EIP style - 250 USD or full log - 600
Downpipe - 495
GT3582R - 1295
Clutch Set up - 790
Flywheel - 430
Adapter Plate - 210
Starter Motor - 425
Engine Management - 1700 USD for the Stage II + 595 for the harness = 2295 or if you have the skill....put a 24V harness in the B chassis.
OEM Motor mount brackets - 600
Fueling - (6) 630cc injectors and an adjustable FPR - 540
Oil pan - 500
Misc - 2000

And I am being over generous

Total = 11680

So, let's clear my mind up a bit.

VR6 engine:
is it ok if i use a 3,2 24v from a European R32/Porsche Cayenne/A3 3,2 ecc?
Does anybody sell pistons/rods for this block (do i really need them for 500bhp?)

Trans:
There's a 034 FW to adapt the 01E trans to the VR6 block.
But what about the clutch? Am i right in thinking a 01E std clutch would do the job (mated to that 034FW)?

Engine Management:
034EFI Stage2 + harness. Ok.
Does this mean that my tacho/RNS-D navi unit/AC won't work anymore?
Does the 034EFI Stage2 use the std OBD2 port for diagnostics?

OEM motor mount brackets:
I was under the supposition that the 24v would bolt-on the OEM B5 mounts.
Am i wrong?
If yes, which car's OEM motor mounts should i buy?

Oil pan:
uhm...why?

Thanks,

Andrea

[Matador]

So, let's clear my mind up a bit.

VR6 engine:
is it ok if i use a 3,2 24v from a European R32/Porsche Cayenne/A3 3,2 ecc?
Does anybody sell pistons/rods for this block (do i really need them for 500bhp?)

Trans:
There's a 034 FW to adapt the 01E trans to the VR6 block.
But what about the clutch? Am i right in thinking a 01E std clutch would do the job (mated to that 034FW)?

Engine Management:
034EFI Stage2 + harness. Ok.
Does this mean that my tacho/RNS-D navi unit/AC won't work anymore?
Does the 034EFI Stage2 use the std OBD2 port for diagnostics?

OEM motor mount brackets:
I was under the supposition that the 24v would bolt-on the OEM B5 mounts.
Am i wrong?
If yes, which car's OEM motor mounts should i buy?

Oil pan:
uhm...why?

Thanks,

Andrea

- The R32 engine/block is basically the same as the 24v VR6, so you could use it. Lots of people sell pistons/rods, Integrated Engineering being one of them.
http://www.intengineering.com/VW/R32/sc267337/

- The adapter plate is actually an OEM piece (which I think is really cool). My understanding is any clutch will work but you need the 034 flywheel and starter.

- Engine management I'm not 100% about, but I know the tach will still work.

- You have to get the OEM mounts for the VR6 block is what was quoted. Obviously the mounts for the 2.7t won't work on a VR6 block, but they are OEM pieces (Taureg, Q7, etc.)

- Not sure about the oil pan, I'll let someone else answer that.

Most of the stuff you asked has been posted before, just be sure to search.

[wdbdy2000s4]

all the gauges and tach and everything can still be used. You may have to retain the s4 ECU to run the gauges and such but the 034 management will still run the VR6 engine.

[andream88]

thank you for the quick reply guys.

I still don't get the engine management options though.
Will wait for Issam to chime in.

cheers

[NYEuroTuner]

So with the stock S4 ECU still in the car to run the electronics, we can still pass inspection?

[Papa Stone]

As I have learn..
1. Is you have the 034 IIC you don't need the stock ecu for anything..

Hi..
quick question.. I pull the engine out today and I have a few questions.. What do I need to keep to run my stock Display (dash) in my car..??
Thanks I am selling all this stuff so I want to know what I need??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Issam@034
keep your stock cluster and your stock engine check

and my stock engine check what?? I don't need my ECU(from the V6 car) or any wiring harness??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Issam@034
No none of it just engine check (oil pressure ,coolant temp)

For the oil pan
either buy one from 034 motorsport (best option), or get a toureg one and modify the cross member..

[andream88]

I've understood why you have to buy the 034 oilpan.

Look at their time attack A4 photos......... ;)

[Issam@INA]

So Issam how long so you think it will be before you make a harness so you can just keep your stock ECU and get a tune?

Working on it right now but no ETA for the eager in you...so far all the guys that have wanted the VR6 swap have been going with stage IIc and its a hell of alot better than the stock motronic found in the S4's

Issam, when you guys make a harness for a 24v VR6 swap can you pin it out to an AEM EMS? What kind of info would you need for a harness like that, pin outs for the AEM box?

1 thing at a time...I do not even want to wrap my head around an AEM configuration.

1. is there a significant difference in the B5 S4 driveline versus the A4 driveline? (aside from the 5 spd versus 6 spd manual).

None that I am aware of (factoring out the differentials and gearbox)

2. Are either one going to be equally strong when handling significant amounts of power? 600awhp?

600whp = 01E
forget 01A for that.

3. Can the B5 S4 6 speed mate directly to the rest of the A4 driveline?

You need the subframe,gearbox brackets and rear differential so essentially no.

We mated a VW VR6 12v motor to a S4 driveline to make for one of the countries fastest A4's!"

Thats correct
Complete S4 driveline.

is it ok if i use a 3,2 24v from a European R32/Porsche Cayenne/A3 3,2 ecc?
Does anybody sell pistons/rods for this block (do i really need them for 500bhp?)

Andrea,
for 500bhp you dont "need" pistons and rods but I would recommend it knowing YOU.
And yes the 3.2 VR6 is the same right across the board - even on the Cayenne as I dismantled a cayenne head about 3 years ago for documentation purposes.

There's a 034 FW to adapt the 01E trans to the VR6 block.
But what about the clutch? Am i right in thinking a 01E std clutch would do the job (mated to that 034FW)?

We have the clutch set ups.Just tell us the power you want to make.
01E standard clutch will not bolt to our flywheel.

Engine Management:
034EFI Stage2 + harness. Ok.
Does this mean that my tacho/RNS-D navi unit/AC won't work anymore?
Does the 034EFI Stage2 use the std OBD2 port for diagnostics?

No OBD-II ports on the 034 and why wouldnt your AC work?

OEM motor mount brackets:
I was under the supposition that the 24v would bolt-on the OEM B5 mounts.
Am i wrong?

We supply OEM motor mount brackets that will allow you to use the B5 motor mounts on a 24V engine.

[RedRocketS4]

what about maintenance on the 24v vr6. for instance, when you blow your head gasket.

How hard is it to change out the head gasket on the 24v VR6? What kind of time frame am I looking at? Do I need to change the timing chain at the same time? What else should I do for preventative maintenance while I'm in there?

thanks, Issam

[Matador]

what about maintenance on the 24v vr6. for instance, when you blow your head gasket.

How hard is it to change out the head gasket on the 24v VR6? What kind of time frame am I looking at? Do I need to change the timing chain at the same time? What else should I do for preventative maintenance while I'm in there?

thanks, Issam

1) Head Gasket - http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volks.../Engine/100/11

2) No you don't need to change the chain.

3) 2-3 hours if your a nub?

It's just one gasket, can't get much easier than that.

[Papa Stone]

So Issam, how much power can the 01A take, I was looking for 500whp so I need to know if this is possible.. and can it take at least 400whp??

Thanks