FAQ: VR6 -12V & 24V Info sharing

[jibberjive]

Hey Issam, any specific links or companies for those manifolds and DP's that would work on our cars for the price you listed, or is that just a general idea for custom made?

Like was said previously too, that price list doesn't include hardware to build the block (rods, pistons, valves, springs, retainers, bearings), nor the labor for the machine shop for those, nor an exhaust, turbo lines (for example lines for 2 GT turbos for our car cost around $400 from ATP, so figure around $200 or maybe a little more depending on length for a single turbo), wastegate, wideband, and intake.

How are the stock cranks on those motors? What do people do for cams (just keep the stock?)?

At the end of the day I don't really see it being too much cheaper (if at all) than a GT setup on the 2.7, but all of the other benefits other than the money definitely intrigue me. I'd love to run a big single.

If anyone does dare to venture and try this I wouldn't hesitate to buy from 034/Issam at all. I'm going to be running a ton of 034 stuff in my build as well, good people

[Dr.Duct]

Hey Issam, any specific links or companies for those manifolds and DP's that would work on our cars for the price you listed, or is that just a general idea for custom made?

Like was said previously too, that price list doesn't include hardware to build the block (rods, pistons, valves, springs, retainers, bearings), nor the labor for the machine shop for those, nor an exhaust, turbo lines (for example lines for 2 GT turbos for our car cost around $400 from ATP, so figure around $200 or maybe a little more depending on length for a single turbo), wastegate, wideband, and intake.

How are the stock cranks on those motors? What do people do for cams (just keep the stock?)?

At the end of the day I don't really see it being too much cheaper (if at all) than a GT setup on the 2.7, but all of the other benefits other than the money definitely intrigue me. I'd love to run a big single.

If anyone does dare to venture and try this I wouldn't hesitate to buy from 034/Issam at all. I'm going to be running a ton of 034 stuff in my build as well, good people

Although it may not be a whole lot cheaper then a budget GT build.. Your getting something that is alot more refined.. Although the swap isnt all that popular *yet*, Your running a setup (turbo and motor) that is more common, and will most likely have a larger amount of resources for tuning, etc.

Not to mention, This thing is destroying anything GT cars have ever done.. mid 150 traps on E85?? That is pare with supra's that have much larger turbo's, and a larger 3.0 motor and lighter weight.. Its beyond incredible.

[espo4442]

I have a feeling people selling vr's on vortex are about to start bumping up the price

[Boris]

Hey Issam, any specific links or companies for those manifolds and DP's that would work on our cars for the price you listed, or is that just a general idea for custom made?

Like was said previously too, that price list doesn't include hardware to build the block (rods, pistons, valves, springs, retainers, bearings), nor the labor for the machine shop for those, nor an exhaust, turbo lines (for example lines for 2 GT turbos for our car cost around $400 from ATP, so figure around $200 or maybe a little more depending on length for a single turbo), wastegate, wideband, and intake.

How are the stock cranks on those motors? What do people do for cams (just keep the stock?)?

At the end of the day I don't really see it being too much cheaper (if at all) than a GT setup on the 2.7, but all of the other benefits other than the money definitely intrigue me. I'd love to run a big single.

If anyone does dare to venture and try this I wouldn't hesitate to buy from 034/Issam at all. I'm going to be running a ton of 034 stuff in my build as well, good people

yeah how much more for all that shit listed above thats pretty much necessary to enjoy teh larger turbo..

Sort of ends up being the same price as a GT build.. WELL> got to PAY to PLAY!!! (really wish we had better smiley icons these are lame as hell.)

I look at it this way...

What other AWD car can I get 500, 600 whp out of that will cost in total....

around 30 grand, if you buy the car for about 10k.....

THAT also has some luxury.isnt old as hell, and doesnt look like shit....no evos or subies then (DQ'd for lack of luxury, I think they look fine fwiw)

Theres nothing else I can think of that will give me 600 whp for that money that still has luxury, and can put the power down with awd to take advantage of lower gears. Every HPF kit M3 I have seen just spins through 1st second and third, whats the point. I can't drive on slicks everywhere...

ANyways, I hope to see more Gt cars and these VR6 cars...

[jibberjive]

Not to mention, This thing is destroying anything GT cars have ever done.. mid 150 traps on E85?? That is pare with supra's that have much larger turbo's, and a larger 3.0 motor and lighter weight.. Its beyond incredible.

I'm definitely incredibly impressed with it's time and trap speeds for sure. It's crazy to see a B5 S4 body going that fast, but to be fair, how many of the GT's that we hear about on here are running stand alone engine management and running 30+ psi? Also, did he refine the tuning and that whole setup when it was in the other car? Regardless, that's incredibly fast!

[stef2.7t]

Are you making a kit for this swap or offering tuning/instal? This would be one worth a trip to get worked on. As far as the a6.. I guess the question would be is the room about the same? I have heard these motors don't last that long. How long have you been testing this motor?

x2 on the bold

[wdbdy2000s4]

Hey Issam, any specific links or companies for those manifolds and DP's that would work on our cars for the price you listed, or is that just a general idea for custom made?

How are the stock cranks on those motors? What do people do for cams (just keep the stock?)?

pretty much any VR turbo mani would work...the DP would probly have to be custom but apparently it's only 2 90* bends so it's a pretty straight forward build.

The stock cranks are fine, i'd go 3.0 crank if building the motor anyway b/c it's only an extra 500(if you don't use the girdle). The 034 VR car can handle 1000hp according to their website so I doubt the crank would be a problem.

As for GT set-ups, I'd bet simmply's car would be close. Didn't it trap like 140 spinning tires through 3 gears? With drag radials he could potentially be in the 9s.
Who knows though, that was the first time at the track. Chris could be running very low 9s with a few more trips and some minor tweaking.

[wdbdy2000s4]

I have heard these motors don't last that long.

are you reffering to a vr6?

[AudiA4_20T]

I have a feeling people selling vr's on vortex are about to start bumping up the price

yea, not really. I can get 12V motors at the junkyard for $200... and theyre everywhere, not hard to come by

[laxman851]

Is the size of the longblock larger with the 3.6l vr6 vs the 3.2? I would assume so but I thought I'd ask.

[Issam@INA]

Hey issam you have miscellaneous as $2000 i was just wondering what that would be.

Usual bs that adds up in a project

If you wish to build the motor add another 3-4k for all the motor, head work and machining. Then add another 4-5k for a nice turbo setup, plus then theres the exhaust etc. At the end of the day it's not cheaper it might actually be more..

Turbo set up is included and you do not need to touch a stock VR6 motor...ask the R32 boys on HPA/VF Engineering kits.

Is the size of the longblock larger with the 3.6l vr6 vs the 3.2? I would assume so but I thought I'd ask.

Completely different motor with a little larger size but not that much larger.

x2 on the bold

A6 has a larger engine bay as it is extended more towards the front of the vehicle.

As for GT set-ups, I'd bet simmply's car would be close.

Forget GT set ups...this is a chalk and cheese comparison.How many labour hours you need to even TOUCH a turbocharger on an S4?
You know how many hours on a VR6? ..... 15 MINUTES.

Most people are overlooking the simple things : maintainability in the end.

[GURUMAN]

I think I know that jig...

[espo4442]

yea, not really. I can get 12V motors at the junkyard for $200... and theyre everywhere, not hard to come by

$200? I wonder how good of condition those are in

[Issam@INA]

I think I know that jig...

ssssshh

[revhards4]

The 24v VR6 is great. But to be honest you can make good power with the 2.7t. If I was to build a 900-1000 monster it's just easier to go with the inline vr6 as you can run a very large turbo and the car is going to be changed alot to handle that kind of powr. Plus at that hp the car is not as street friendly as a nice fuel delivery system is required...ie fuel cell or sumped tank, yada yada...the list goes on and on to make that kind of power that nobody seems to talk about.

[stef2.7t]

A6 has a larger engine bay as it is extended more towards the front of the vehicle.

So you're saying that along with being able to fit in any b5 chasis, it would be a simple swap in the c5 as well?

[Cecchini]

My only question that has yet to be answered is the vr6 lighter than the 2.7tt?

[sean1.8t]

My only question that has yet to be answered is the vr6 lighter than the 2.7tt?

they're both iron blocks. the VR probably has a little less mass to it since it's not a split V configuration.

so i would say it's either same weight or maybe ~50lbs lighter than the APB 2.7t motor

it would be very negligable

[Issam@INA]

So you're saying that along with being able to fit in any b5 chasis, it would be a simple swap in the c5 as well?

Theoretically speaking you can put the VR6 into ANY longitudinal Audi but ideally yes it will fit in a :
B5
B6
B7
C5
chassis

My only question that has yet to be answered is the vr6 lighter than the 2.7tt?

VR6 motor is lighter than the V6.

[Big Boost]

Regarding the weight difference, the most important factor to me is that you lose having two of everything. The turbos and manifolds, the inlet and discharge IC piping, etc. So not only is the engine lighter, but all of the ancillary equipment saves weight as well.

[gmx]

Regarding the weight difference, the most important factor to me is that you lose having two of everything. The turbos and manifolds, the inlet and discharge IC piping, etc. So not only is the engine lighter, but all of the ancillary equipment saves weight as well.

It can also be argued a 90deg V6 has lower CG.

But I'm still all up and interested in this swap

[Issam@INA]

It can also be argued a 90deg V6 has lower CG.

But I'm still all up and interested in this swap

That is true but no S4 touched our VR6 Around a track
You want a LOW COG then bottom mount the turbo

[djwimbo]

If you have a 12v VR6 turbo stock rev running say 25psi then the VE would be 2.29
If you have a 2.7tt with the 7200 rev limit like most aftermarket tunes and run 25 psi the VE is 2.4
The 2.7 has a higher VE because the number of valves. The VR6 is onyl a 2 valve which makes is only 85% efficient and the 2.7 is a 5 valve making it 92% efficient.

Calculating VE based on the # of valves and displacement isn't accurate enough to base your comparison on. You have to factor in the efficiency of the turbo. Putting a GT30 on a 2.8L and asking it to push 35psi to 8500rpm isn't the same as doing it with a 42R or even a 35R. While the # of valves does correlate to velocity and volume of the air/fuel that's ingested into the engine, it does not set the engine to a specific percent of efficiency.


Agreed, VR6 is lighter than the 2.7T or 2.8L.

Any arguments for the COG are thrown off by the fact that doing the sunroof delete option will counteract any weight that has moved up in the chassis. The weight of the sunroof assembly above your head has more effect than moving 100lbs of engine up 6 inches.

[solowb5]

There are threads on the tex for 24v to 12v differences. The new audi FSIs run a oem surge tank so that isn't a issue to maintain dd.
a 200 dollar 12v will be in great shape. I see locals give these engines away.
Not all manifolds can be used on the 24v bc the most have been designed for a fwd thus placing the gate location ontop of the compressor side when mounted longitudal.
Also 12v and 24v manifolds aren't interchangeable. Actually I believe from my research only the accessories are the only thing interchangable.
I am going to run all oem EM in my b5 chassis. I hated using standalone as I'm more into a close to oem feel in driveability.
There aren't many oem tunes available yet for the 24v. Either unitronics or c2.
I'm sure VAST could do a ME7 tune though.
I'm going with c2 since they have been in the vr world for a while. Plus I'm local to them and can get dyno tuned :)

Cool thing is I got my 24v free lol Actually I was in a sense paid to take it.

After watching the 9 sec pass in a full trimmed s4 w/ a 12v I have been beyond sold haha.

[Papa Stone]

For me, the 24V is a better options because I NEED to run A/C.. If not the car won't be able to be use on the street..

Also I would only do it in a A4.. A S4 has a great engine so why change it? My car came with a 2.8V6 so it was a easy decision..

[Big Boost]

Regarding the swap, it's damn near a bolt in affair. The most important question(s) to ask is, what are the details involving the swap? Does 034 make a custom intake manifold with the correct throttle cable conversion? Is there a twin scroll turbo manifold in or near production with dual wastegates? I know there is a log style, but I noticed the time attack car has a GT45R and those only are available with twin scroll turbine inlets. Will the factory distributor work or should it be converted to batch/sequential coils? Please let us know. Thanks.

[Matador]

I wouldn't worry about the whole twin scroll thing. People are making 500-600+ HP on GT35s with the eBay/SPA turbo manifold. As far as an intake manifold, you could try HPA's new CVP manifold since it has provisions for two different TB locations, or it'd have to be custom with the inlet coming straight on like USP's.

[Big Boost]

The HPA set up is only for the 24V motor. I am searching for a 12V solution. The 24V set up would allow you to keep the A/C which is cool, but not a deal breaker.

UPDATE!
Because I actually searched 034's website, I saw that they had a cast intake manifold for the swap. Is this one going to be mass produced?

[Matador]

The HPA set up is only for the 24V motor. I am searching for a 12V solution. The 24V set up would allow you to keep the A/C which is cool, but not a deal breaker.

UPDATE!
Because I actually searched 034's website, I saw that they had a cast intake manifold for the swap. Is this one going to be mass produced?

No, not HPA, SPA. Or Kinetic. Or, as you've seen, the one on 034's site.

eBay Manifolds (SPA Turbo) or HERE
Kinetic Motorsport

[Big Boost]

I am referring to the intake manifold, not the turbo manifold.

[Matador]

(facepalm) my bad. :P

[Big Boost]

LOL. No problem my man.

[AWDturbo1852]

so there is absolutely no way to run a/c with a 12v?......who takes it from a roll? the gt car or the vrs4?

[wdbdy2000s4]

depends on the vrs4...most people in here are talking about 500-600whp so a GT car could have that race...If someone is running a serious turbo setup on a VR like chris green and pushing 700+ at the wheels...probly not much of a chance for the GTs.

[Big Boost]

It also depends on the power to weight ratio. The VR swap should lose at least 250-300 lbs. So with a VR6 swap pushing 500-600whp the GT turbo set up might lose. It's only speculation until we start seeing more of these VR's on the road.

[wdbdy2000s4]

and more GT cars too. There hasn't been much documentation n well running GT cars. It looks like simmply and alex have well running caras so hopefully they'll be providing a lot of data. Dom's setup is running too, so hopefully we can see some numbers from him too.

[Big Boost]

Both set ups are fairly new, so waiting for more VR6 conversions is going to take possibly even longer than GT's. A showdown between a GT and a VR would be the defining moment.

[Issam@INA]

I wouldn't worry about the whole twin scroll thing. People are making 500-600+ HP on GT35s with the eBay/SPA turbo manifold. As far as an intake manifold, you could try HPA's new CVP manifold since it has provisions for two different TB locations, or it'd have to be custom with the inlet coming straight on like USP's.

Custom one is perfect for these kind of applications.

A showdown between a GT and a VR would be the defining moment.

No offense to the GT owners in here but GT's wont stand a chance.

so there is absolutely no way to run a/c with a 12v?......who takes it from a roll? the gt car or the vrs4?

There is if you get creative with a driver side engine mount design.

[OneSickSedan]

For me, the 24V is a better options because I NEED to run A/C.. If not the car won't be able to be use on the street..

Also I would only do it in a A4.. A S4 has a great engine so why change it? My car came with a 2.8V6 so it was a easy decision..

I agree with you. I bought the S4 for its engine. If I didn't have an S4 I would definitely buy a cheap B5 A4 and do this.

When I was shopping around for the S4 5 years ago I thought they were kind of pricey. I always wondered if it would be cheaper to buy a B5 A4 and swap a vr6 in it but I thought nah it would be too much of a headache. Bravo 034 for making this happen.

[Issam@INA]

I bought the S4 for its engine.

I would buy an S4 for the body package and interior.
Engines can always be changed