FAQ: VR6 -12V & 24V Info sharing

[Issam@INA]

1st Mounting a 24v Vr to B5 auto FWD zf trans? 034 couldn't give me answer to if the Adapter plate would bolt up/work,ect...

ZF transmission has a dual bolt pattern bell housing so yes the adapter plate will work.

second starter basically the same thing i couldn't get a answer to if there starter would work,

Starter motor may work depending on the depth of your ring gear.1.8T is showing same part # for automatic and manual so you might be in luck.

3rd motor mounts are you guys all using the 034 solid mounts?? or custom? Lastly harness/ECM, any ideas on who might beable to do a harness for me? i just don't have the time.

Short of dropping it off to a shop and saying "here swap this for me" you are not going to find a shop that is readily willing to take on a swap of this magnitude.
Motor mounts for the 24V are available but I do not want anyone running into the issues that Justin had so be patient and a full kit will be available shortly.

[TravS4]

Motor mounts for the 24V are available but I do not want anyone running into the issues that Justin had so be patient and a full kit will be available shortly.

Woot!... Now I just need money. And a car.

[CookinSPG]

thanks Issam, Well i think i've got a couple ideas about the harness, What issue do you think i'll have with the ZF ECM comunicating with the Vr ECM? Is there anyone who can and would do a Custom tuned Tip software??? I wish Uni would do some Tip software. What issue did justin have with the mounts?? what mount's are we speaking about? 034 mount's are solid i'd really like to not solid mount a motor if i don't have to. My saab has solid mount's and they are miserable in traffic. Any other issue's i'm missing other than blowing up my ZF?? lol. Pretty sure this is gonna cost me a Rediculous amount to do. Oh well. Atleast i was already planning on a Built trans this winter any how. Pretty sure i'm the only person stupid enough to try this for the Show aspect, and performance 2nd. Atleast something other than a damn MkII or Mk4 might get some prop's for once!
-Chatham

[NYCVR6]

Motor mounts for the 24V are available but I do not want anyone running into the issues that Justin had so be patient and a full kit will be available shortly.

...

[Issam@INA]

thanks Issam, Well i think i've got a couple ideas about the harness, What issue do you think i'll have with the ZF ECM comunicating with the Vr ECM? Is there anyone who can and would do a Custom tuned Tip software??? I wish Uni would do some Tip software. What issue did justin have with the mounts?? what mount's are we speaking about? 034 mount's are solid i'd really like to not solid mount a motor if i don't have to. My saab has solid mount's and they are miserable in traffic. Any other issue's i'm missing other than blowing up my ZF?? lol. Pretty sure this is gonna cost me a Rediculous amount to do. Oh well. Atleast i was already planning on a Built trans this winter any how. Pretty sure i'm the only person stupid enough to try this for the Show aspect, and performance 2nd. Atleast something other than a damn MkII or Mk4 might get some prop's for once!
-Chatham

I seriously recommend looking into LEvel 10 because I am pretty sure even in NA form that your transmission is not going to last very long.As for the VR6 ECM and your auto tranny....that would be UP TO YOU as I dont know anyone that would even attempt such a swap.

Not going to lie,some of you have contacted me and I do not mean to be rude when I say "this swap isnt for you" but I am trying to be as nice and diplomatic as possible without getting too "real" about it.I have been toning it down on the VR6 front because alot of people are emailing me,pming etc etc and asking me the most simplest questions alive when I know they have been answered in this thread.
When I first thought of the VR6 swap I envisioned a kit where any joe schmoe would be able to buy all the parts needed and do the swap in his garage but when people start asking about "Oh can I do this for $2000" then you are wasting both your time and mine....

The VR6 Swap is meant to be for those who are looking for more than 800hp....those who want insane power and are tired of bolt in turbo kits.It is MEANT to cost money....you cant have a powerful car of this magnitude on a K04 budget.It is NOT going to happen....
If you dont have anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000 set aside for this then do not even bother.


p.s. was that nice? I dunno....the voice in my head says it was a nice post.

[CookinSPG]

LOL sorry Issam, Honestly i've been doing Swaps for yr's some simply some crazy, RB powered 240's, rotary MG's, Saab's,ect... So i'm not too worried about the Actually swap, more concerned with stuff that will slow me down or shaft me in the end such as a tran's controller. Really wish I had the motor in front of me already this would probally answer some of my stupid Questions.Really wish the Thread wasn't littered with so much "How Do I keep My A/C BS..." A/C is for Pussy and Line's are always in the way/ugly. Sorry Guy's if i'm not building a track machine, but a dyno Queen. I've read a ton of bad stuff about Level 10? not sure whats true n whats not but. everyone i've spoke with said either IPT or 517 for trans. i've already tlked to john at IPT and was told 600hp with a built box wouldn't be a issue. i've also read this thread for several month's over and over(probally once a week in full) I just wanna try to do this the simplest way by learning from everyone else's mistake's and problems. and not waste $$$$$. So i'm gonna go to the yard tomorrow to hunt for a few pieces. hope i come across a decently priced 24v while im out. Does Anyone have any good pics of there mount brackets???
-Chatham

[jibberjive]

Pretty sure i'm the only person stupid enough to try this for the Show aspect, and performance 2nd.

You're right about that But at least you're honest and up front about it rather than trying to play it off like some are with Jesster's showcar and his rollcage.

Good luck anyhow, I bet supercharging it is going to be pretty tough though.

[Big Boost]

The VR6 Swap is meant to be for those who are looking for more than 800hp....those who want insane power and are tired of bolt in turbo kits.It is MEANT to cost money....you cant have a powerful car of this magnitude on a K04 budget.It is NOT going to happen....
If you dont have anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000 set aside for this then do not even bother.

You hit the nail on the head. As time goes on, the VR conversion will be more refined and perfected with better mounts to allow for A/C compatilbility and other improvements lie ahead as well. Again, this swap is NOT CHEAP, and as mentioned in a much earlier post, this swap is akin to building a full on race car.....for the street. Again, as time passes on this swap will become more affordable, but not by much due to the extensive hardware and chassis mods you have to purchase and execute respectively.

[Haenszel20v]

The VR6 Swap is meant to be for those who are looking for more than 800hp....those who want insane power and are tired of bolt in turbo kits.It is MEANT to cost money....you cant have a powerful car of this magnitude on a K04 budget.It is NOT going to happen....
If you dont have anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000 set aside for this then do not even bother.

I'm glad you posted this, because there's 100,000,0,00,000,000 people talking about doing this swap I presume just cuz its the new thing to do and saying "oh I'll run it NA" etc for no apparent reason. just chip your 1.8t, or leave your 2.7 stock... it'll be faster than an NA vr6. Hell, a chipped 2.7t would probably be even with a "stg2" vr6t.

My logic behind this swap is to have an engine bay that I can tear into without worry/hassle(as easy to work on as a 1.8t), will have down low tq, and reasonable high end power....... and also has a timing CHAIN.. because I've had nothing but issues with the timing belt setup on 1.8t's (count: 3 motors).

[dougyfresh]

Not going to lie,some of you have contacted me and I do not mean to be rude when I say "this swap isnt for you" but I am trying to be as nice and diplomatic as possible without getting too "real" about it.I have been toning it down on the VR6 front because alot of people are emailing me,pming etc etc and asking me the most simplest questions alive when I know they have been answered in this thread.
When I first thought of the VR6 swap I envisioned a kit where any joe schmoe would be able to buy all the parts needed and do the swap in his garage but when people start asking about "Oh can I do this for $2000" then you are wasting both your time and mine....

The VR6 Swap is meant to be for those who are looking for more than 800hp....those who want insane power and are tired of bolt in turbo kits.It is MEANT to cost money....you cant have a powerful car of this magnitude on a K04 budget.It is NOT going to happen....
If you dont have anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000 set aside for this then do not even bother.


p.s. was that nice? I dunno....the voice in my head says it was a nice post.

I think it was okay. Gotta wake people up to reality sometimes even if it feels like you are coming off harsh.

[wdbdy2000s4]

LOL sorry Issam, Honestly i've been doing Swaps for yr's some simply some crazy, RB powered 240's, rotary MG's, Saab's,ect... So i'm not too worried about the Actually swap, more concerned with stuff that will slow me down or shaft me in the end such as a tran's controller. Really wish I had the motor in front of me already this would probally answer some of my stupid Questions.Really wish the Thread wasn't littered with so much "How Do I keep My A/C BS..." A/C is for Pussy and Line's are always in the way/ugly. Sorry Guy's if i'm not building a track machine, but a dyno Queen. I've read a ton of bad stuff about Level 10? not sure whats true n whats not but. everyone i've spoke with said either IPT or 517 for trans. i've already tlked to john at IPT and was told 600hp with a built box wouldn't be a issue. i've also read this thread for several month's over and over(probally once a week in full) I just wanna try to do this the simplest way by learning from everyone else's mistake's and problems. and not waste $$$$$. So i'm gonna go to the yard tomorrow to hunt for a few pieces. hope i come across a decently priced 24v while im out. Does Anyone have any good pics of there mount brackets???
-Chatham

I've heard a lot of horror stories about level-0. I personally would go with 517.

I know a shop in Philly who will do the harness but they would need the car so they could wire it up and make sure it works perfectly(they've done this before btw). Take it to PM if you're interested, I'm not trying to advertise, steal business, or take up 034s thread.

[wdbdy2000s4]

I seriously recommend looking into LEvel 10 because I am pretty sure even in NA form that your transmission is not going to last very long.As for the VR6 ECM and your auto tranny....that would be UP TO YOU as I dont know anyone that would even attempt such a swap.

Not going to lie,some of you have contacted me and I do not mean to be rude when I say "this swap isnt for you" but I am trying to be as nice and diplomatic as possible without getting too "real" about it.I have been toning it down on the VR6 front because alot of people are emailing me,pming etc etc and asking me the most simplest questions alive when I know they have been answered in this thread.
When I first thought of the VR6 swap I envisioned a kit where any joe schmoe would be able to buy all the parts needed and do the swap in his garage but when people start asking about "Oh can I do this for $2000" then you are wasting both your time and mine....

The VR6 Swap is meant to be for those who are looking for more than 800hp....those who want insane power and are tired of bolt in turbo kits.It is MEANT to cost money....you cant have a powerful car of this magnitude on a K04 budget.It is NOT going to happen....
If you dont have anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000 set aside for this then do not even bother.


p.s. was that nice? I dunno....the voice in my head says it was a nice post.

Not harsh at all. It's the complete and honest reality and it was well said. If you're going for 400-500whp then a k04/tial605/rs6 swap is a much more cost efficient option. If you're going for a 800whp monster than a big single VR6 is the best way. This is by no means a cheap swap and people need to realize that.

[rbj325]

The VR6 Swap is meant to be for those who are looking for more than 800hp....those who want insane power and are tired of bolt in turbo kits.It is

I disagree. I want to do the swap to get 400-500 reliable horsepower without having to push my 4 cylinders until they are ready to pop.

Edit: Plus the exhaust note of a VR6 is nice :)

[Haenszel20v]

I want to do the swap to get 400-500 reliable horsepower without having to push my 4 cylinders until they are ready to pop.

you can..... very easily...... on sub-20psi pump gas.

[NYEuroTuner]

My logic behind this swap is to have an engine bay that I can tear into without worry/hassle(as easy to work on as a 1.8t), will have down low tq, and reasonable high end power....... and also has a timing CHAIN..

Winnar!

[Matador]

Not going to lie...

p.s. was that nice? I dunno....the voice in my head says it was a nice post.

Well stated, sir. I might also add, as much disdain as there is for even mentioning the word "Vortex" here, it is a MASSIVE repository of information that is FINALLY searchable by Google. Most if not all of the questions about what direction to proceed in NA/Supercharger/Turbo upgrades for the motor and also issues people have seen with high HP VR6s have already been theorycrafted as well as actually built and well documented. If you check out the 2.8l 24v VR6 forum and the MkIV R32 forum, you'll keep the run-in with the "kiddies" to a minimum but will fulfill your thirst for VR6 knowledge.

ITBs, single turbo, twin turbo, tube manifolds vs. cast, etc. It's all there:

2.8l 24v VR6 Engine Forum
Golf IV R32


Though, ultimately, it comes down to SEARCH and READ. Like it always does.

[CookinSPG]

You're right about that But at least you're honest and up front about it rather than trying to play it off like some are with Jesster's showcar and his rollcage.

Good luck anyhow, I bet supercharging it is going to be pretty tough though.

Thanks but i'll be going turbo, just wondering if anyone had tossed the Superchargered or twin induktion ideas around. but i think a Vf blower would literally stick out the front bumper way too deep off the end of the block. blower would be sick tho. Jess's Car is the Hottness, sorry S4 boy's if i offend any one but you guy's are alot like the Saab community, very predictable, same ol stuff, and honestly kinda boring. So no one has any good pics of there mount's? I've found a few Vr's today. but nothing resonable priced. i'll keep looking.
Chatham

[NYEuroTuner]

I've found a few Vr's today. but nothing resonable priced. i'll keep looking.
Chatham

Don't be afraid to look out of state/out of the local area.. I drove 5 1/2 hours to get my 24valve from Rochester NY..

[wdbdy2000s4]

Thanks but i'll be going turbo, just wondering if anyone had tossed the Superchargered or twin induktion ideas around. but i think a Vf blower would literally stick out the front bumper way too deep off the end of the block. blower would be sick tho. Jess's Car is the Hottness, sorry S4 boy's if i offend any one but you guy's are alot like the Saab community, very predictable, same ol stuff, and honestly kinda boring. So no one has any good pics of there mount's? I've found a few Vr's today. but nothing resonable priced. i'll keep looking.
Chatham

powerlevels of the VF blower aren't worth the cost of a VR swap. a strong stage 2+ will be faster then a blow VR so there isn't much reason for the s4 guys to go that route. Id rather pay $1000 and have 300whp then pay 10-15k to swap in a VR and supercharge it where you only have 275-300whp. BTW, where do you live?

[CookinSPG]

I live in West Virginia, I've been looking out of state NyEurotuner, just haven't found ne thing yet with decemt price, just trying not to have to barrow my Father n law's truck to drive n get a motor if i can source one somewhat local. i've got a few leads tho. Also not everyone doing this swap is a S4 owner... pretty sure there's a couple A4 guy's doin this also. keep that in mind with the whole power concept. just asking about a blower again it would just be something different but looking completely impossible. Nyeuro any pics of you mounts??? the motor mounted in the car without the front end on??? all the pics i've seen are honestly not super detail on mount areas.
Chatham

[wdbdy2000s4]

In terms of the b5 chasis, the blower hangs too far off the front to fit in the car. Your two options are to cut the firewall and move everything back (lots of custom fab), or use the R32 trans and mount the motor the other way. Personally I would just use the R32 trans for simplicity, but since yours needs to remain auto and FWD then it's not really feasible for you.

[Haenszel20v]

or use the R32 trans and mount the motor the other way. Personally I would just use the R32 trans for simplicity, but since yours needs to remain auto and FWD then it's not really feasible for you.

that would never fit in the bay between the frame rails I fear.

[NYEuroTuner]

Nyeuro any pics of you mounts??? the motor mounted in the car without the front end on??
Chatham

Issam is in the process of making my mounts and a few other goodies.


And the best pic at the moment would have to be Justins S4..

[magz]

just asking about a blower again it would just be something different but looking completely impossible.
Chatham

And just straight-up not worth it. I am not as well versed with the 24v, but with the 12v, it becomes pretty hard to get past 300-325whp with a standard VF blower unless you like shredding belts and tensioners every 1K miles. And those numbers are at the front wheel, so figure even less going through an AWD platform.

Interesting thread guys, keep up the good work. I would love to swap my turbo VR into my B5. Kudos to the few that have decided to give this a shot.

[CookinSPG]

Thanks for the pics. i know he mentioned that before that the mounts were trimmed down,any more detail on the trimming? would it just be easier to make a set on soild works and then have then CNC'd out?the first set would probally cost but then to the rest it probally could be reasonable?
Chatham

[NYEuroTuner]

Thanks for the pics. i know he mentioned that before that the mounts were trimmed down,any more detail on the trimming? would it just be easier to make a set on soild works and then have then CNC'd out?the first set would probally cost but then to the rest it probally could be reasonable?
Chatham

No problem dude, thank Justin for finishing his swap.

But about the mounts, the best way to find out, Talk to Issam, so far Issam has been the best to work with, real cool guy.

If you have some basic questions, ask them here and he'll def get to them, but if your serious and want to get things moving, call him.

[wdbdy2000s4]

Thanks for the pics. i know he mentioned that before that the mounts were trimmed down,any more detail on the trimming? would it just be easier to make a set on soild works and then have then CNC'd out?the first set would probally cost but then to the rest it probally could be reasonable?
Chatham

The poly mounts need to be trimmed, not the metal brackets holding them. shimming down poly-mounts is very easy and cheap. You could do it yourself.

[Aggv]

So i assume it would be cheaper to replace the 2.7 V6 with a 2.7V6 instead of the VR swap if you only want K04ish power??

I ask because i have high miles on S and the idea of being to work on the car myself is appealing. OR least have access in the engine bay to things, which is far from the case in the 2.7tt.

[rbj325]

you can..... very easily...... on sub-20psi pump gas.

To the wheels without waiting till 4000rpm to get power?

[Haenszel20v]

To the wheels without waiting till 4000rpm to get power?

4,000? lol

You never said that.

[CookinSPG]

i thought i read that justin had to trim down his brackets? So just trim the mounts then? no one's answer about which bracket's either or if there the same between the 1.8 and the 2.7?? i found a couple S4's at the yard today pretty picked thru though. Think i've got a lead on a motor, harness, and ECM! YEAH! 1600 for it all.
Chatham

[NYEuroTuner]

i thought i read that justin had to trim down his brackets? So just trim the mounts then? no one's answer about which bracket's either or if there the same between the 1.8 and the 2.7?? i found a couple S4's at the yard today pretty picked thru though. Think i've got a lead on a motor, harness, and ECM! YEAH! 1600 for it all.
Chatham

Mounts have to be trimmed to lower the height of the motor to fit under the hood of the car, and the passenger engine Bracket has to be fabricated/modified to work. Only the drivers side S4 engine bracket bolts on, the holes on the passenger side of the motor dont line up with the bracket, so welding is needed.


And 1600 is a great price, I paid 1500 for my 24v with harness and ecm and low miles.

[URHank]

Nate posted it over at motorgeek for those who dont browse that forum. This is the conservative tune for the Eurotuner Event this week. I am losing sleep waiting for the issue to come out...

[jrock]

I sure hope Issam figures it out soon. I know I am waiting for all the kinks to get fixed til I get mine and Im sure quite a few others are too!

[CookinSPG]

BUMP...

[CRAIG1MACK]

I sure hope Issam figures it out soon. I know I am waiting for all the kinks to get fixed til I get mine and Im sure quite a few others are too!

x2. Wanting to purchase the mounts, etc, etc...

[NYEuroTuner]

BUMP...

So hows your progress coming along?

[NYCVR6]

Since i havent posted in a while.. My car has been down due to a bad alternator and me being lazy. I pulled my axles last night and sending them and hubs to A1CVTech. They are making me axles, ill post up pics when they are done. But, they are awesome guys to work with and should be producing high performance S4 axles after mine are finished. I might be putting a r32 head in over the winter with schrick 268's and see what we can crank out of this motor after we figure out this VVT crap..

[NYEuroTuner]

^

Did you solve that overheating issue you were having before?

[NYCVR6]

^

Did you solve that overheating issue you were having before?

I have an electric booster water pump like the one guru posted.. Just havent instaled it yet, im thinking that should do the trick.