Auto vs Stick

[GQ//S4]

trust me dude i know lol they were never offered in a manual for THAT reason, the auto can do a much better job.

And you would be completely wrong.

Mercedes only offers autos in their AMG models because of the following reason:

1. Mercedes tried a manual option on some of their vehicles over the past 20 years, the ratio that chose the manual over an automatic was disproportionately tiny, so they make VERY few manual cars.

2. Mercedes doesn't have a transmission capable of handling the power/torque figures most of the AMG cars put out, especially the 65's.

3. Ferrari "flappy-paddle gearbox's" have just come to the point where they are shifting faster than a formula one driver could w/ a manual transmission at 60 millieseconds in the Scuderia, this is not a fully automated system, but a paddle-operated system, all of the fasted transmissions require driver input, including F1 cars.

[b6onboost]

That's great and all but none of those are automatic transmissions. Technically they are manual transmissions with an electrohydraulically managed clutch(s).

What about the DSG, SMG, S-tronic, R-tronic, etc? All of these dual clutch systems are amazing, and my next car WILL have one of these if it's an available option.

Let's not forget the Ferrari F1 gearbox. Pretty sure that's the most advanced and fastest gearbox available in any road car.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

^^correction, Mercedes did NOT offer a manual due to low demand, that is obvious. But if u watch any recent interviews with AMG everytime they will specify, because the auto can do a better job, also to save their ass, so all performance figures can be duplicated. They DO have trannies that can handle well over 1000 ft lbs of trq, the issue would be if it was not limited, that it would not be drivable, the trq curve would be way to aggressive. U have to remember the trq converter was dropped and replaced with a wet clutch system. The Ferrari is an automated manual transmission. the driver inputs the changes but the computer shifts the tranny with the clutch and all. Think about it when u see a ferrari or lambo back up the motor revs to over 2000 RPMs before it gets rolling, because the computer is slowly releasing the clutch.

[A6.S-line]

^^correction, Mercedes did NOT offer a manual due to low demand, that is obvious. But if u watch any recent interviews with AMG everytime they will specify, because the auto can do a better job, also to save their ass, so all performance figures can be duplicated. They DO have trannies that can handle well over 1000 ft lbs of trq, the issue would be if it was not limited, that it would not be drivable, the trq curve would be way to aggressive.

Which production Mercedes (AMG or otherwise) has a manual tranny that can handle 500 tq, let alone 1000?

PS: What else would they say in an interview? That they put in a 5spd auto tranny because they had no other choice? Of course they're going to claim it was the "best" choice.

And WTF does "also to save their ass, so all performance figures can be duplicated" mean? So I suppose the performance figures for Ferraris, Porsches and all supercars with manuals since the beginning of time have been discredited because the "performance figures [could not] be duplicated?

[AudiA4Turbo22]

^^no no man read, they make AUTO trannies that can handle 1000 ft lbs of trq.

to save their ass, now u take a Porsche 997 Turbo down a 1/4 mile manual tranny, and every magazine u read will have completely different figures, u take an auto AMG down the 1/4 and all mags will have very similar figures, once again to maintain consistency

[A6.S-line]

^^no no man read, they make AUTO trannies that can handle 1000 ft lbs of trq.

And....what's your point?

to save their ass, now u take a Porsche 997 Turbo down a 1/4 mile manual tranny, and every magazine u read will have completely different figures, u take an auto AMG down the 1/4 and all mags will have very similar figures, once again to maintain consistency

Are you arguing just for the sake of it? Boy, Ferrari, Porsche et al must be run by a bunch of idiots, right? Because their stickshift supercars since the invention of the automobile have run the risk of generating inconsistent magazine 1/4 mile times? Yeah no wonder no one respects Ferrari or Porsche any more .... their cars are so inconsistent

This is the dumbest rationale for an auto tranny I have heard recently. There are many valid reasons for putting an auto in a car - this is not one of them

[fitch303]

I wish I had an automatic, it's just easier for roadies.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

And....what's your point?



Are you arguing just for the sake of it? Boy, Ferrari, Porsche et al must be run by a bunch of idiots, right? Because their stickshift supercars since the invention of the automobile have run the risk of generating inconsistent magazine 1/4 mile times? Yeah no wonder no one respects Ferrari or Porsche any more .... their cars are so inconsistent

This is the dumbest rationale for an auto tranny I have heard recently. There are many valid reasons for putting an auto in a car - this is not one of them

no no no that was an example ur missing the point and taking everything way to deep, this is their philosophy not mine. Also, if there was more of a demand than more manuals would be made. There isn't so there won't be any made. Their goal is to make a car that is daily drivable by even an old lady, yet be able to perform and rank up high even though there is no manual transmission. The point is MBZ is more aimed for a luxurious sports car than pure sports car.

[A6.S-line]

I have a hard time believing it's their philosophy. Do you have anything to back that up?

And the point about demand was made by GQs4 while correcting your earlier assertion that AMG chose a 5spd auto tranny because they found it was better than the manual option.

[b6onboost]

AudiA4Turbo22: you sound like a huge MB fan, and that's fine, but you should know the reason MB doesn't offer manual trannys. MB has introduced them on several models sporadically in the past and they never sell well. Potential MB buyers lean more towards luxury, and autos...whereas other brands like BMW and Audi still have very strong manual sales.

All this 'consistant magazine times' and 'auto does a better job' is all sorta BS IMO. MB still makes great cars, they're just taylored to a different crowd.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

I have a hard time believing it's their philosophy. Do you have anything to back that up?

And the point about demand was made by GQs4 while correcting your earlier assertion that AMG chose a 5spd auto tranny because they found it was better than the manual option.

it is better than the manual option no doubt, can u imagine how heavy and how firm that clutch would have to be to be able to hold that torque and power? no one will pay $200k for something like that, that was not correcting that was adding to the point. If u look at the buyers of the benzes they aren't the youngest hippest folk, they don't want manual transmission. So AMG perfected the auto in their cars, and believe that it is a better option both consumer wise, and reliability wise. Ur forgetting, I'm the biggest MBZ fan out there and i've spent years on forums, websites, videos, etc. I can't explain my point the way i want in words i have to show someone lol.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

AudiA4Turbo22: you sound like a huge MB fan, and that's fine, but you should know the reason MB doesn't offer manual trannys. MB has introduced them on several models sporadically in the past and they never sell well. Potential MB buyers lean more towards luxury, and autos...whereas other brands like BMW and Audi still have very strong manual sales.

All this 'consistant magazine times' and 'auto does a better job' is all sorta BS IMO. MB still makes great cars, they're just taylored to a different crowd.

wow just read this, sorry for repetition.

[GQ//S4]

^^no no man read, they make AUTO trannies that can handle 1000 ft lbs of trq.
to save their ass, now u take a Porsche 997 Turbo down a 1/4 mile manual tranny, and every magazine u read will have completely different figures, u take an auto AMG down the 1/4 and all mags will have very similar figures, once again to maintain consistency

You didn't read a single thing I posted, did you. They DO NOT (MB) make an automatic capable of handling that amount of torque. In fact, they don't even have one that handles 850 lb/ft, which is what the AMG 65 engine was capable of, but had to be limited down to the 7XX lb/ft mark to keep the transmission alive.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

^^read up on them again they are limited only in 1st and 2nd gear.

[VR4-S4]

Long story short...
Auto Fails at weight, drivetrain loss and actually DRIVING a car
Auto Succeeds at consistency and being able to stuff your face while on the cellphone as you are applying your make-up.

[RLB6]

Plus, Autos do drop boost between shifts

Care to explain why you think this is true? The truth is that you couldn't be any more wrong than you are now but I'd like to hear your reasoning behind it.

[topcat]

i love a good stick vs auto thread

[nuctech]

With all the in car entertainment.... stereo, nav., dvd, cell phone, passengers, smokes, etc. etc. etc....these are just a few things I could think of that the free hand comes in useful for.......though sometimes I just need one finger.

I drove manuals all my life, I like to relax as much as I can while I'm driving.....you would too if you had to drive in Hongcouver B.C. er sorry I meant...Vancouver B.C.

So true! And a little racist LOL!

[CTUltrasport]

look at this:
A4 3.0 quattro Tiptronic 0-60: 6.9sec
A4 3.0 quattro 6 speed 0-60: 6.0 sec

thats almost a whole second!

Where did you get those numbers from? 3.0 6 speed is 6.9.....

[ryannorthcott]

B6 A4 1.8T quattro sedan:

5-speed - 7.9 seconds
automatic - 8.5 seconds


3.0 quattro sedan

6-speed - 6.9 seconds
automatic - 7.7 seconds

http://www.audiworld.com/model/index.html

[B6JoeS4]

well audia4turbo22 just cleared up that there were no b7 RS4 autos, i didnt know that. but like i said before i rode in an auto b6 RS6, i dont see why they wouldn't have an auto b6 RS4 as well. i could be wrong, i was just assuming that was a given.

no such thing as a B6 RS6

no such thing as a B6 RS4

[B6JoeS4]

Where did you get those numbers from? 3.0 6 speed is 6.9.....

i just googled it and thats what i got. oh well

[cloaked]

B6 A4 1.8T quattro sedan:

5-speed - 7.9 seconds
automatic - 8.5 seconds


3.0 quattro sedan

6-speed - 6.9 seconds
automatic - 7.7 seconds

http://www.audiworld.com/model/index.html

Really wow I thought that my car was a turtle and yep I was right, while mine isn't a turtle anymore I find it hard to believe that Audi would have such a big difference in time between 1.8t auto and stick that's really stupid if they have the same HP I wonder if the Auto was tested in "S" drive. On another note where does the 2.0 and 3.2 fight in this equation?

[Audi-ence]

So true! And a little racist LOL!

You call it racist, I call it Vancouver's ethnic reality.

I am of European decent, but I've got friends from all types of backgrounds. I'm only racist against people who have no idea what they're doing behind the wheel of an automobile (auto. or manual) ......and for some reason it always seems to be 'you know who' behind the wheel of these poorly driven cars->.......it's so sad.

[diagnosticator]

don't you lose like 10 hp through the torque converter also?

The tip trans on B6 A4s has a torque converter clutch that is locked up, or engaged most of the time after the 1>2 gear upshift. The TCC is allowed to slip during specific situations after that upshift, but is normally not in program slip mode.
In Tip shift mode, the TCC is locked or closed practically all of the time from 2nd>5th>1st gears. When closed or engaged, there is no power loss in the torque converter, it's a solid mechanical connections between the engine and the drive line to the wheels. The only power loss that occurs all of the time is the power consumed driving the trans fluid pump.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

^^dumb question, but anything one can do so the trans pump doesn't suck up as much power? For example run it off something external?

[mxrz]

^^dumb question, but anything one can do so the trans pump doesn't suck up as much power? For example run it off something external?

It's a gear pump, an integral part of the whole transmission.

[gdawg'05a4]

AudiA4Turbo22: you sound like a huge MB fan, and that's fine, but you should know the reason MB doesn't offer manual trannys. MB has introduced them on several models sporadically in the past and they never sell well. Potential MB buyers lean more towards luxury, and autos...whereas other brands like BMW and Audi still have very strong manual sales.

All this 'consistant magazine times' and 'auto does a better job' is all sorta BS IMO. MB still makes great cars, they're just taylored to a different crowd.

MB still does offer a 6-speed in the C300 Sport and SLK300.

[diagnosticator]

^^dumb question, but anything one can do so the trans pump doesn't suck up as much power? For example run it off something external?

Not dumb, but the trans uses pressurized fluid to actuate all of the internal functions that transmit drive torque. Fluid pressurized by the pump forces the friction plates together to engage the several clutches, depending on the sequence of engagement/disengagement, is how the different gear ratios are selected.

Using an externally powered source of pressurizing the fluid won't reduce the load on the engine, and can increase the load due to inefficiency involved. For example, if the external pump is an electric motor drive, then the power to run that motor must be provided by the alternator, that is driven by the engine anyway. The trans requires constant fluid pressure, there is no opportunity to reduce pump load as a mode state.

[FORCE_FED_DUB]

can u imagine how heavy and how firm that clutch would have to be to be able to hold that torque and power? no one will pay $200k for something like that

a properly designed clutch sytem will not be "too heavy"

using arbitrary numbers of say 100,000 lbs pressure plate force required to hold 1000lbs/ft..... say the optimal clutch pedal pressure for a luxury car is 20lbs. the hydraulic force ratio needs to be 500:1. for every pound of force applied to the clutch pedal, 500lbs of force are applied to the clutch.

granted that is a very rough idea that is missing more variables than i care to count, but a clutch, like everything else about a car, is what it is designed to be. even if the manual tranny can hold 1000lbs/ft, it is easier for a bad driver to still kill it by abusing it than an automatic will allow. i'd bet that an AMG auto won't let you neutral drop it if you tried (atleast not from higher rpm). i wouldn't want to have to warrenty a manual twin turbo v12 (esp when the aftermarket will turn up the boost)

back to the OP's topic:
audi autos are slower than manuals. in this case, it's just how audi designed the car; not to be slow, but to be smooth and not lurch off the line (like a drag car will). holding the brake on launch will get a better result, but for a manufacture 0-60 test they aren't going to do that and won't recomend you to either.

when you get into computer controlled dual clutch manuals (DSG, S-tronic, R-tronic, etc) and computer controlled manuals (SMG, Ferrari, F1, etc) their performance can be rather jerky. i have yet to hear a car critic say that driving an SMG BMW or a manumatic Ferrari in traffic is a pleasant affair... and ask an E46 M3 SMG driver to back his car up a dirt hill (they will fail). they just can't be everything to everyone. DSG is a bit better in this regard (and i'm not just saying that because i'm a VAG fan) because it is programmed to be civilized in 'drive', but put it in sport or manual and it has a wicked 3-2 downshift, as well as dumping into gear like one would driving a manual in a "very spirited" manner.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

Not dumb, but the trans uses pressurized fluid to actuate all of the internal functions that transmit drive torque. Fluid pressurized by the pump forces the friction plates together to engage the several clutches, depending on the sequence of engagement/disengagement, is how the different gear ratios are selected.

Using an externally powered source of pressurizing the fluid won't reduce the load on the engine, and can increase the load due to inefficiency involved. For example, if the external pump is an electric motor drive, then the power to run that motor must be provided by the alternator, that is driven by the engine anyway. The trans requires constant fluid pressure, there is no opportunity to reduce pump load as a mode state.

i see thank you. Just trying to see what possibilities are out there.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

a properly designed clutch sytem will not be "too heavy"

using arbitrary numbers of say 100,000 lbs pressure plate force required to hold 1000lbs/ft..... say the optimal clutch pedal pressure for a luxury car is 20lbs. the hydraulic force ratio needs to be 500:1. for every pound of force applied to the clutch pedal, 500lbs of force are applied to the clutch.

granted that is a very rough idea that is missing more variables than i care to count, but a clutch, like everything else about a car, is what it is designed to be. even if the manual tranny can hold 1000lbs/ft, it is easier for a bad driver to still kill it by abusing it than an automatic will allow. i'd bet that an AMG auto won't let you neutral drop it if you tried (atleast not from higher rpm). i wouldn't want to have to warrenty a manual twin turbo v12 (esp when the aftermarket will turn up the boost)

back to the OP's topic:
audi autos are slower than manuals. in this case, it's just how audi designed the car; not to be slow, but to be smooth and not lurch off the line (like a drag car will). holding the brake on launch will get a better result, but for a manufacture 0-60 test they aren't going to do that and won't recomend you to either.

when you get into computer controlled dual clutch manuals (DSG, S-tronic, R-tronic, etc) and computer controlled manuals (SMG, Ferrari, F1, etc) their performance can be rather jerky. i have yet to hear a car critic say that driving an SMG BMW or a manumatic Ferrari in traffic is a pleasant affair... and ask an E46 M3 SMG driver to back his car up a dirt hill (they will fail). they just can't be everything to everyone. DSG is a bit better in this regard (and i'm not just saying that because i'm a VAG fan) because it is programmed to be civilized in 'drive', but put it in sport or manual and it has a wicked 3-2 downshift, as well as dumping into gear like one would driving a manual in a "very spirited" manner.

I get it, but then again it would not be something the avg MBZ buyer could control easily, cause with that much power, i mean a lead foot and a clutch don't equal safety. If it is an auto tranny such as the MBZ it records ur driving style so it will adjust to how much pedal u push and how u want it to react.