JHM Longtube Header Thread

[Phantom RS]

[QUOTE=jaybquick@JHM;3941540]



Our customer's dyno overlaid with a stock dyno provided by 034.



So, can you explain why the torque is higher but the HP is lower in the lower RPM ranges (0-3500 rpm)? Obviously that's not mathematically possible. This makes your graph exceptionally questionable to me.

[jba]

So, can you explain why the torque is higher but the HP is lower in the lower RPM ranges (0-3500 rpm)? Obviously that's not mathematically possible. This makes your graph exceptionally questionable to me.

Also thought that was er.. odd. Also interesting that where torque is equal, the HP is higher on the red line. Would be interested in how that works.. Some sort of correction factor?

[eweu]

You can see that torque and horsepower are equal at 5252 RPM for the blue/red and green/orange pairs, so those are obviously the matched sets.

[jba]

You can see that torque and horsepower are equal at 5252 RPM for the blue/red and green/orange pairs, so those are obviously the matched sets.

Good point, i forgot about the 5252 rpm thing. Odd though that around 6krpm, the torque is equal but HP is way off.

[Justincredible]

Good point, i forgot about the 5252 rpm thing. Odd though that around 6krpm, the torque is equal but HP is way off.

I don't know if this answers you questions. But the Tq and Hp are able to carry longer thus the Hp going longer. after about 5000 the motor is about out of the TQ range but the Hp is able to carry on and due to the parts the hp is able to be extended past the stock drop off

[jba]

I don't know if this answers you questions. But the Tq and Hp are able to carry longer thus the Hp going longer. after about 5000 the motor is about out of the TQ range but the Hp is able to carry on and due to the parts the hp is able to be extended past the stock drop off

mm, i'm probably missing something basic here, but HP is just a multiplier of torque x rpm. (T*N/5252) So if torque and rpm are the same between the two graphs, HP should be the same too, no?

[eweu]

I don't know if this answers you questions. But the Tq and Hp are able to carry longer thus the Hp going longer. after about 5000 the motor is about out of the TQ range but the Hp is able to carry on and due to the parts the hp is able to be extended past the stock drop off

The confusion is that at the lower RPMs, the JHM run shows lower power but higher torque than the stock run. That's mathematically impossible since Torque = (Power x 5252)/RPM. So I think somewhere data or scaling has been lost along the way, and that's not terribly surprising since these dyno plots flew at us pretty quickly and from different sources at different times.

[Justincredible]

The confusion is that at the lower RPMs, the JHM run shows lower power but higher torque than the stock run. That's mathematically impossible since Torque = (Power x 5252)/RPM. So I think somewhere data or scaling has been lost along the way, and that's not terribly surprising since these dyno plots flew at us pretty quickly and from different sources at different times.

Oh I was talking about the extended Hp in the RPM range.

I would say we don't have to worry too much about the sources for the dyno as I understand that came from the company that runs the dyno

[Swanky]

Since the data was dropped in our lap here are 2 images courtesy of 034 Motorsport's dyno. Our customer dynoed when we weren't present. Also it was done on a dyno day with a ton of people there.

Our customer's dyno overlaid with a stock dyno provided by 034. Thanks 10mpg

Jay, i just want to give you a heads up that the dyno plot 034 provided you with and that you put your company name on is very misleading. i can't believe people haven't mentioned this to you yet, but it is a clear copy and paste overlay with the axes not aligned. i have cropped the upper left hand corner of your original dyno you posts and annotated the issues. you can clearly see the lighter gray "ghost" axes that i identify with the red arrows. also, you can see where i continued the ghost grid line all the way to the y-axis for the green line stock tiptronic peak torque. the graph physically shows ~236 ft/lbs tq and the caption states only 224.7 ft/lbs tq

this proves your own point (and Justincredible's and JFunkey's etc etc) that dynos are not always what they seem. maybe 034 can send you a better dyno that lines up, but in the mean time this one should be disposed of due to its misleading characteristics.

in this case BOTH the people questioning the dyno are correct and the people accepting the dyno are correct. the mathematical calculations from peak to peak are correct, but the graphical lines are off. to all the members on here for their insight. after i saw so many back and forth posts i decided to check into it myself and these are just my observations.

[jfunkey]

Ya Im with you on this. ALthough the info is there and you can see what the difference is this kinda thing is what it comes down to.

Although we get the general idea and you can't despute the results. Dyno info is more trouble then its worth.

Good looken swanky. Its not off enough to throw the results into anything new to look at but this is one more reason why I don't put much stock in all this.

Now as a side note you have to remember that the info might be lined up 100% perfict but you need to understand that the scale used on the other dyno sheet could have been different as it is if you go look back at the original sheet 10 mpg posted. The scale I would wager is what is off but the RPM's are what is lined up,

For those of you who don't know there are scales on the side of the dyno for hp A/F RPM as long as were looking at the same scale with the RPM's matching I would say were all good for the refrence.

[Matt@JHM]

I see your point swanky the graph is more about the peak numbers and about reference.

[beemercer]

I agree with you Swanky.

This is why JHM sticks to the track... Hahaha

Yeah its really a matter of Lehr und Kunst, for my car I prefer the latter.

[H0LLYW00D]

I agree with you Swanky.

This is why JHM sticks to the track... Hahaha

Yeah, all this dyno info doesn't really do much for me. Too much to argue over. A consistent trap of 108 without even headers though.....

[jfunkey]

Yeah, all this dyno info doesn't really do much for me. Too much to argue over. A consistent trap of 108 without even headers though.....

This is spot on. The way to look over the info is comming from so many angles and there are real interested people and top knowledgeable people looking over the info and making sence of it all.

I put swanky at the list of middle of the road guys looking at stuff from all angles. He is no fan of anything other then looking into the situations and getting all the info out.

My thoughs are this if you look at the dips in power for say the intake door flap they seem to line up in the correct RPM range and if you do shift the graph there is still a large power gain no matter how you shift it.

But for me F dyno racing lets get this pig to the track the results are there for me. 108+ thats something to say for sure. Im excited to see more

[McCarthyism]

Is anyone concerned with the emissions issue of running straight headers? Anyone done a smog check with headers? I barely passed last smog check with piggies and miltek, but I'm not sure about an S4 with headers. Anyone have input?

If emissions are not a concern, I may be likely to make a switch SOON! Then again, I'd like to not contribute to poisoning the air here in CA! After all, my livelihood depends on clean air/soil!

[Justincredible]

I know they offer them with cats, that's a nice option. But I don't know much about the cats other then that.

I know 10mpg has them and I believe he lives in CA where its one of the hardest emissions standards states there is.

[ChronicTeutonic]

You will not pass visual inspection without the converters so I'd make sure you had a way to put some on when it is time fore inspection.

[Silver B6 S4]

Is anyone concerned with the emissions issue of running straight headers? Anyone done a smog check with headers? I barely passed last smog check with piggies and miltek, but I'm not sure about an S4 with headers. Anyone have input?

If emissions are not a concern, I may be likely to make a switch SOON! Then again, I'd like to not contribute to poisoning the air here in CA! After all, my livelihood depends on clean air/soil!

This is one of the reasons why I haven't done piggies. Since the engine in this car is squeezed in the bay, you can barely see the stock manifolds. I wouldn't think visual would be a problem.

[eweu]

Has anyone actually reported passing a smog test in California? This year would be when the very first required smog checks start taking place on the early 2004 MY cars. (New cars are exempt for six years, then it's every two years after that.)

Headers or downpipes should be an automatic fail on the visual since they are not the stock parts nor are they stamped with a CARB exemption. But we all know smog techs rarely look underneath the car which is about the only way you can see them on an S4. This is the game The People's Republic of California makes us play. At least Quattro cars don't have to run on the dyno.

[Justincredible]

Well for you Ca folks the piggies would be the best thing for visual. But like Silver B6 S4 said you would have to know what the exhaust system looks like and then get under the car and look up to see anything. The headers are not visible from the motor compartment

[ieatfishburitos]

Do we know if the cats are easily visible from below on the headers w/ cat option?

[sway]

Do we know if the cats are easily visible from below on the headers w/ cat option?

I believe all the headers have the pre-cats deleted, and if you have cats added afterwards the will connect to the back side of the headers wich would be right under you tranny mount point, so if they put it up on jacks or something, yes. If they just look under they should be tucked up where the tranny sits. Here is a pic of where they connect. That beam is the tranny to sub frame mount in the pic:

[IronMike]

really stupid question, but I will ask anyway. So say the install price is for example $1,000 and the headers are $2,500 equaling $3,500. So for $3,500 out the door I am good to go if I go cat-less? Or do I have to buy for example Fast intentions cat-backs as well bringing the total close to around $5,000??? And if so, will cat-less be louder than all hell and make my neighbors light my house on fire? Can I add F.I. catback later?? sooo many questions sorry, I am in need of an exhaust but If it will be another 1,500-,2000 to upgrade to headers instead of dp and catbacks, than I will go that route. Thanks in advance.

[sway]

really stupid question, but I will ask anyway. So say the install price is for example $1,000 and the headers are $2,500 equaling $3,500. So for $3,500 out the door I am good to go if I go cat-less? Or do I have to buy for example Fast intentions cat-backs as well bringing the total close to around $5,000??? And if so, will cat-less be louder than all hell and make my neighbors light my house on fire? Can I add F.I. catback later?? sooo many questions sorry, I am in need of an exhaust but If it will be another 1,500-,2000 to upgrade to headers instead of dp and catbacks, than I will go that route. Thanks in advance.

I would say you are better off gettin a 2.5 exhaust to begin with which ever company you prefer. Since JHM is working with FI, the FI bolts right up with little to no mods. I'm sure other exhausts are similar to that. If you want to go with a 2.25 exhaust (milltek, awe) you can get an adapther that will bottle down for that. It's sort of pointless to get the headers and keep your stock exhaust. You'll probably get close to the same effect as just gettin a c/b. The cats come with the headers, and if you prefer cat-less you'll probably just get a piece of plain pipe that'll go in between your headers and exhaust. Here is what the headers come with if you order sport cats:


The small piping are the cats themselves ^. This is what the F.I. comes with non-res v :


If you get them res you should notice wider piping somewhere on the x pipe, if they do it like awe. no cats though. The cats are located on your downpipe and pre cats just behind the stock headers. Hope this helps.

[SpeedETC]

Is anyone concerned with the emissions issue of running straight headers? Anyone done a smog check with headers? I barely passed last smog check with piggies and miltek, but I'm not sure about an S4 with headers. Anyone have input?

If emissions are not a concern, I may be likely to make a switch SOON! Then again, I'd like to not contribute to poisoning the air here in CA! After all, my livelihood depends on clean air/soil!

I have Piggies and a Milltek on my S4 and passed CT emissions without an issue. The tech did do a visual inspection which was nothing more than a quick look under the car. I believe the rules are slightly less stringent here than in CA and other states.

[IronMike]

Okay, so is the consensus to go with just a cat-back now (I want to wait to see more results/info on the headers) with 2.5'' diameter i.e. Fast Intentions? I want an exhaust now but do not want to waste money by getting the headers later on. Somebody please verify my thinking as I will pull the trigger as soon as I know that it is the right decision. Thanks.

Also, does anyone have any complaints or comments regarding the F.I. catback or other brands with 2.5'' that I should look at. Does the non-res F.I. catback have bad drone?? Thanks again.

[jfunkey]

I ordered the headers already. I really like the FI set up and there are a few that don't like it so thats good for me.

The headers aren't for everyone. But for me the dyno info and the feed back from people is more then enough along with the knowledge of what headers do compaired to stock manifolds.

Info will keep comming in but so far you have 1 shown dyno that shows a large jump. Then there is the S/C car dyno info floating around that said the PES car with headers did 18ft-lbs tq and 35hp more to the wheels then a non headered car.

Some people are going to make more some people are going to make less. The battle always comes down to are you willing to spend the extra money for the extra power. I was but this is not for everyone.

[Matador]

Any more info? I'm seriously starting to look twice at the R in the garage after hearing/seeing the videos...

[jfunkey]

Bro as you can see I have a R as well and I love it but after checking out some of the local S cars with JHM parts on them it was easy to let the wife take over the R for the day to day as I start planing the S and its future

[AudiOso]

Man I can't wait until my car is out of warranty to do this upgrade.

[fitzS4]

turbo your R and you will think differently trust me

[jfunkey]

Man I can't wait until my car is out of warranty to do this upgrade.

I saw your pic in the show your self section. You don't have to pay to put these in. You can set the car on a set of small trees and just yank out the motor. Then call it some names and give it the finger and its will go right back in. If you get too caught up call braveNy and call it a day

turbo your R and you will think differently trust me

you know I considered this for a while. But when it came to it the V8 just sounds like music while the R32 sounds like well not so much music. ha ha

[sway]

Okay, so is the consensus to go with just a cat-back now (I want to wait to see more results/info on the headers) with 2.5'' diameter i.e. Fast Intentions? I want an exhaust now but do not want to waste money by getting the headers later on. Somebody please verify my thinking as I will pull the trigger as soon as I know that it is the right decision. Thanks.

Also, does anyone have any complaints or comments regarding the F.I. catback or other brands with 2.5'' that I should look at. Does the non-res F.I. catback have bad drone?? Thanks again.

Your best bet to get the "bang for your buck" is to go with a 2.5 c/b, piggies from jhm, and tune while you wait for the headers. Piggies really won't be a waste of money seeing as you can always keep em if you ever need to go back to "stock". I think that'll get you more power than headers with stock exhaust. My .02 cents. Let Jay know your plans and I'm sure he'll be more than happy to help

[Silver B6 S4]

IMHO, this is my plan.

I will get piggies, and see a little performance difference from just the stock D/P's. It's well worth the money, and it will keep me happy for a while. When I get bored with this, I will look into the headers. There are 1-2 people in California running these. If it can pass smog without swaping them out, I will be all over them. S/C after that, and after warranty is up.


A car is never fast enough.(For me at least) I have had several cars, but one example was my 07 STI. It was quick stock, stage 1 at 500 miles made a difference, and went with a maddad fullback protuned stage 2 at 1200 miles(275hp-295tq at the wheels on a mustang dyno). Stage 2 was fast for maybe a week, I got used to it, and it felt like stock again.

[IronMike]

IMHO, this is my plan.

I will get piggies, and see a little performance difference from just the stock D/P's. It's well worth the money, and it will keep me happy for a while. When I get bored with this, I will look into the headers. There are 1-2 people in California running these. If it can pass smog without swaping them out, I will be all over them. S/C after that, and after warranty is up.


A car is never fast enough.(For me at least) I have had several cars, but one example was my 07 STI. It was quick stock, stage 1 at 500 miles made a difference, and went with a maddad fullback protuned stage 2 at 1200 miles(275hp-295tq at the wheels on a mustang dyno). Stage 2 was fast for maybe a week, I got used to it, and it felt like stock again.

Hmm, I think what you said is the route I may take. Vast Performance is right by my house, so I can go with the piggies and F.I. exhaust. So I need to make sure I get the x-pipe and not the H-pipe correct (in order to fit the headers in the future)? Which leads me to ask, why would you ever want the H-pipe in the first place?

Also, what should the install price be for the piggies and catback on a tiptronic s4? Just a ballpark will work. Thanks.

[jfunkey]

look for it to me a little more cause of the auto.

[AudiOso]

I saw your pic in the show your self section. You don't have to pay to put these in. You can set the car on a set of small trees and just yank out the motor. Then call it some names and give it the finger and its will go right back in. If you get too caught up call braveNy and call it a day

LOL... If you say so

[Mk4 30R]

that Nogaro Avant in the video sounds like a Corvette. simply amazing.

[obijohn22]

What do you mean us? You garage claims you own no Audi... 335s get the same ol bar donkeys that are diseased and go home with club hoppers everynight. Audi's get the classy broads.

any girl that goes home with you because of your car can hardly be called "classy" lol