Audizine B6/B7 S4 & RS4 1/4 mile times update 07/04/10

[cabracco85]

My times from yesterday was the following

13.17@104.95

break down of the slip
60ft 1.77
330 5.41
1/8 8.42@81.94
1000 11.00
1/4 13.17@104.95


That was at a DA of 2400ft

[B6guy42]

My times from yesterday was the following

13.17@104.95

break down of the slip
60ft 1.77
330 5.41
1/8 8.42@81.94
1000 11.00
1/4 13.17@104.95


That was at a DA of 2400ft

Good times. Good trap. Congrats.

[cabracco85]

Good times. Good trap. Congrats.

Thanks.

[B6guy42]

Thanks.

1.7 is quite impressive actually. Do you have a scan of the slip?I just want to see the full slip. I don't think you can do much better than that though.

[dextrek]

My times from yesterday was the following

13.17@104.95

break down of the slip
60ft 1.77
330 5.41
1/8 8.42@81.94
1000 11.00
1/4 13.17@104.95


That was at a DA of 2400ft

What are your mods? If it's still stock, then you are an Awsome driver. If not, you're still an awsome driver.

[jfunkey]

WOW congrats guys to run a 13.2 in 80 deg temps thats un herd of. Great times. I notice the JHM tune. One more vote for JHM for the N/A class

[cabracco85]

1.7 is quite impressive actually. Do you have a scan of the slip?I just want to see the full slip. I don't think you can do much better than that though.

I know i can do better i just need to upgrade the clutch as it is still the stock unit. I think low 1.7 hi 1.6 are doable with the proper setup. I can scan the slip but im not sure how clear it will be or even how to post pics. Send me a PM with your email address and i can send you a scan.

[cabracco85]

What are your mods? If it's still stock, then you are an Awsome driver. If not, you're still an awsome driver.

The only power adding mods are the JHM tune and catback with piggie pipes. I also have the JHM pulley(frees up power). intake spacers, JHM ss, JHM light front rotors, K&N filter. Pretty much thats it. i am also on rims that are heavier then stock. Stock clutch.

[cabracco85]

WOW congrats guys to run a 13.2 in 80 deg temps thats un herd of. Great times. I notice the JHM tune. One more vote for JHM for the N/A class

Once the weather cools down, there are going to be a few guys running 12s

[sakimano]

WOW congrats guys to run a 13.2 in 80 deg temps thats un herd of. Great times. I notice the JHM tune. One more vote for JHM for the N/A class

would be nice to see a full Stasis car's slips. Any around? These boys seem to be the JHM devotees! Also, what happened to 91GL...?

[mickf29]

Couldn't resist, nothing to do, so hopped in the car and headed to PIR again. BTW anyone know what Weatherman is in English? Liar. It was supposed to be 84 today, cool off from the 100+ temps this past week. Nope. Was 100 today. Was hoping to have some cool down from last weekend when my altitude equivalent runs were at ~2050 feet.

This weeks runs were altitude equivalent of 2313 feet! Damn hot. I have removed any reference to a DA conversion to avoid confusion at the advice of Justincredible. The actual times for my best run of the night, and ever, are in teh first slip posted below.

I am much happier this weekend with my runs, as I took some advice from several people (thanks twentyvalve, chris o, godfather jay). Finally broke 2.0 on my 60' times as well, 2x! I ran the tire pressure up at 44 this time, and definitely ran the rpm up to about 4500 to 5k each time, and feathered the clutch better I thought. my runs were quite consistent, and I think i am starting to run this car where it should be. I will let the slips speak for themselves below. I also let the RPM run to 7.8K to 8k before shifting this time, last week I was shifting at 7k to 7.2k rpm. I think I will hold off on any more dragging until early October, when the temps are way down in the 60's, and see what i can do then.

BTW I hooked up my exhaust valves again this morning, so my car is completely stock "performance" speaking. Not that the valves do anything for performance, but some people over on Quattroworld were saying I wasn't really stock because of that. problem solved. Unless the black wheels and black trim and LED's made me faster. I now think i can get a 12.9 in this car when the temps are better.

Other interesting info: if anyone ever wondered if the RS4 stock was faster than a 6.0L GTO with the LS2 motor, with intake and exhaust mods, the answer is yes. I had 2 solid runs with a very cool guy running his 2006 GTO, and we were very close, he was higher speed at the trap but he couldn't hook up like I could to start. 1/8th mile speeds we were even.

Fuel: 92 octane Shell V-Power
Track Temp: 89.1 @ 8pm
Humidity: 38%
Tire pressure: 44psi

Solo run:


vs. Honda Civic:


vs. Nissan Truck


vs. GTO 6.0L modded run #1:


vs. GTO 6.0L modded run #2:

[FarmerBob]

Nice runs Mick! Good to see some RS4's making the board. I didn't see the slip for the 13.123 @ 106.355 MPH run though?

[Justincredible]

Finally broke 2.0 on my 60' times as well, 2x! I ran the tire pressure up at 44 this time, and definitely ran the rpm up to about 4500 to 5k each time, and feathered the clutch better I thought. my runs were quite consistent, and I think i am starting to run this car where it should be.

This technique will have you end up needing a new clutch. Feathering the clutch is just glazing the flywheel at 4000 RPM altho you were able to cut a better 60ft this was terrible advice by anyone that gave it to you. There have been several posts about what to do at the track.

Don't feather the clutch. Bring the clutch to the point of engagement then back off about 1" Rev to 3200RPM and QUICKLY either pop or pull your foot off the clutch pedal. This is the technique of many of the 1.8/1.7 60' people. What you have done is going to land you a burnt flywheel

[mickf29]

FarmerBob: ignore that posted info about the adjusted speed and time due to DA conversion. It only confused things. Anyways it was hot out, and the car probably had some loss in performance due to this, draw your own conclusions. But for now 13.488 is my best 1/4mile time stock, regardless of temp or humidity :-)

[Justincredible]

FarmerBob: ignore that posted info about the adjusted speed and time due to DA conversion. It only confused things. Anyways it was hot out, and the car probably had some loss in performance due to this, draw your own conclusions. But for now 13.488 is my best 1/4mile time stock, regardless of temp or humidity :-)

As we all know the conditions for mickf29 along with more visits to the track will result in much better results. Mickf29 seems committed and Im sure will go to the track when the da drops, so will im sure many others helping us see first hand how temps effect performance

[Justincredible]

To clear up any issues in the future. We that come here and participate in the data collection are asked to only post direct info and not adjusted or possible times. We are all asked to follow the if it didn't happen and its not factual don't post it info.

There is nothing wrong with the I think the car has more in it kinda thing. But lets try to keep this as fact biased as possible for actual data collection

[Tek4ever]

Heya Mickf -


I just noticed that even though my launch was better than yours, you were going faster than me at 1/8. I was going 81.99, you were at 82.2. I think if you try shifting quicker and power shift, on a cooler night you'll have your 12s. /cheers

[mickf29]

Heya Mickf -


I just noticed that even though my launch was better than yours, you were going faster than me at 1/8. I was going 81.99, you were at 82.2. I think if you try shifting quicker and power shift, on a cooler night you'll have your 12s. /cheers

Well lets see if I can shift quicker next time, I am getting a JHM short shifter installed tomorrow! This winter a couple of us are going to port and polish the intake manifold, guys who did this in the UK are seeing huge gains from this little procedure, 2-3mph faster on the 1/4mil. One reported he was putting out 111mph with just this mod. Pretty much confirms how starved for air this engine is. Audi did a smart thing by going to dual 70mm intakes on this engine for the RS5. gave it 35 hp over the RS4, and that is the only engine difference I am told.

[mickf29]

legend: C/B=cat back .... Dp's=down pipes ...(Nc)=no cats ... c C/B=custom cat back ... L/W=light weight ... Ro=rotors ... Rim=rims ... bbb= big bake kit ... CP= crank pulley ... IS Intake spacers ... CX= stage x 2..3.. clutch. FW=flywheel LW S/C supercharged.... NO2 Nitrous oxide
The * represents a improvement over past mods.
Times will be in this post The red info represents the best for that category for that class of car_____ blue is the fastest power assisted time for NOS, Turbo, Supercharger
driver_________year___trans___program_____________mods_____________60ft____1/4mile___speed
Todeshandler___08/S4 __Man/6__ GIAC 94___ V/F S/C 5psi STaSIS C/B Avant.._1.91____ 13.02___. 107.08
JayBquick______05/S4__Man/6___JHM 93__ JHM IS,CP,LWFW,LWR,Nc,CB,clutch__1.85____ 13.03____.108.43
FarmerBob_____05/S4 __Man/6___JHM 93 ___ JHM intake spacers,LWFW clutch__1.84_____13.03____.105.91
Bhvrdr________ 04/S4 __Man/6___ APR 93__ APR Dp's, Milltek C/B L/W bbb......__ 1.86____ 13.20 ___ 103.17
TeK4ever*.____04/S4 __Man/6 __ JHM 93 ___ JHM,Ro,CP,C2.FI,DP,CB.LW rims..__ 1.83____ 13.30 ___.104.23
91gl _________ 04/S4 __Man/6__ REVO 93__ FI C/B LM Rep rims K&N Filter.......__ 1.89____ 13.38 ___ 102.55
Justincredible__ 05/S4__Auto/6__ JHM 93 __ Vast Dp's(Nc)C C/B L/W ro(JHM)rim __1.94___ .13.39 ___ 107.35
Trexturk _____ 04/S4___Man/6 __Stock 93__ Catless Dp's custom catback _____. 1.85____ 13.44 .___103.46
cabracco85 ___05/S4___Man/6___Stock 93 _ K&N filter and Flapper mod..........__ 1.83____ 13.46 ___ 102.72
TeK4ever _____04/S4 __Man/6___ GIAC 93___K&N ......................................__ 1.89____ 13.83 ____ 97.89
Mickf29______08/RS4___Man/6___Stock 93___Stock________________________. 2.10____.13.83_____101.8

So based on my last timeslip post, can you update mine with the new best times?

Run #1
60ft: 2.014
1/4: 13.488
1/4 mph: 103.41

Those are all uncorrected, actual times off the slip posted (first slip). I had 5 more runs all very close to this as well, corroborating this. Best 60' was 1.936, but the not on this run. Best 1/4mph was 103.71, but not on this run. Not sure what you are selecting as "best" here, but each of those parameters are on 3 different runs, go figure. I believe you are really looking for the one with the best time, which is the one above, Run #1.

Fortunately or unfortunately, this will probably be my last stock runs. I was hoping to get some stock runs in when it was cooler, but I am having the JHM shifter, ECS H-Pipe and an H&R rear sway put in tomorrow. I did want to see if I could get under 13 stock in cooler weather. 90 degrees is bad for drag times.

[jfunkey]

Not a bad time for the second time at the track. Its all there for you. Just remember its always easer to launch at higher RPM's with more practice and better temps you will be teaching the other RS4 owners how to do it.

Here is some back data for you to think about

A RS4 and a S4 are with in about 100lbs of each.
The RS4 has a final gear of a 4:10 and the S4 of a 3:83

There are several S4's in the 1.8 60'
cabracco85 & Tek4ever have claimed to get 1.7 and how did they do that. They launched at 3500 RPM

To further educate you. the power and tq curve of the RS4 and the S4 are the same at 3500 RPM.

Further more the tq falls off in both the RS4 and the S4 past 4000 RPM By more then 25tq.

So the S4 can get a 1.8 60' launching at 3500. But your saying that with the same Tq and Hp at about the same weight and better gear ratio you can't get a 1.8 60' at 3500RPM

The people you got your info from are 2.7T guys and that is what they have to do to get good 60'

[Justincredible]

There is truth in what Jfunkey wrote

The RS4 and the S4 have the Exact Tq and Hp at 3500 RPM so there is no reason why a S4 can cut a 1.8 60' and you can't in the RS4. Go back to the 1/4 mile list cabarocco did it with filter and air box modification. If you further wish to argue the point. I get better 60's then you and I have a automatic and launch well below 2000.

As soon as you clean up your threads I'm happy to do the same guys this is an exciting time for us all lets not let some misunderstandings between enthusiasts ruin the thread. Ive spoken to everyone that has an issue and you guys are all on the same side. Great job cleaning out the thread guys, lets all work together

[sakimano]

wow...

anyway, shouldn't this be the time on the list?




quite a bit better than

Mickf29______08/RS4___Man/6___Stock 93___Stock________________________. 2.10____.13.83_____101.8

[Justincredible]

So far mickf29 has made great strides to clean the thread of any unneeded or emotional responses to the original situation that started this thread on a down turn. So Jfunkey and others I ask at this time you do the same.

This is not a pissing match we all come here to get and share info. This is not a grand standing competition. I have been able to moderate the thread with mickf29's help, I assume and expect to get the same respect back from the other members that use and enjoy the info here.

Let this be said. This list is not ANYONES right, just cause you posted the info to get updated. If you don't treat the other members with respect and don't or are unable to get along with the other members like an adult you won't be treated as one. If you can't or don't follow the rules don't expect me to feed any bad or childish actions. Also just as mickf29 made a mistake realized, adjusted and eliminated any emotional response U accept others will do the same.

Now that we have moderated the post lets get back to it. I accept to see this be a different post this time tomorrow. So far mickf29 has made large strides to straighten things out I accept others to do the same

[jfunkey]

Bro the issue is info and keeping it corrected.

There was a time when people attacked Brvdr and said his times were bogas cause other people couldn't acheve the same things.

There have been several posts about how the B6/7 can't go 12's with bolt ons.

There was like a 5 page thread how a B6 couldn't do this
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/J...-B6_692046.htm

This conversation has happened several times before. Maybe your right about the RS4 but the facts and figgures all look to be there.

[cabracco85]

OK I think first there is some confusion here on many peoples parts. First mine, I posted and didn't realize this was such a formalized attempt at posting times. I put in a small line item that said what it could be with a cooler temp, but again, I did not say this was actual, nor did I expect it to be listed that way. Just info i thought was useful for comparison sake.

Second, I have posted two full sets of timeslips on here. One on page 2, which is from 10 days ago, and one on page 3, which is 3 days ago. I think there is confusion that Page 3 is a repost of page 2. It is not. This is why i simply and I thought nicely asked Justin to update the times then, as I thought you were disregarding that entire post because of the one line in there where I said this is what it would have been with the DA adjustment.

Only other issue I have is that a few of you keep saying 60' times are 1.8 in an S4, but I see this absolutely nowhere. I have asked many other RS4 owners and none of them who had their car out at the track, ran 12.9 and 13.0 runs stock, none of them had a time under 1.9 in a 60'. So just for future reference, this thread is not the only group of people running cars. If you read my post, i said completely stock, not modified. Airbox, whatever, its modified. Until someone actually posts a slip with a 60' under 1.9 for a stock S4 or RS4, I won't believe it because i have two conflicting reports. One here says yeah it can be done, but no proof of it, or the proof is modified, not stock. The other is a set of slips from myself and many other RS4 owners, all confirming nobody we know of has ever gone below 1.9 completely stock.

Anyways that's all I have, I state the paragraph above not in an argumentative fashion, but only to share the info I have and give my experience and knowledge from many others. If you have gone sub 1.9 completely stock, please let me know and show me the proof, I would love to know it can be done, but until then i am a skeptic, because nobody has done it and recorded it properly in a stock RS4.

As far as the "squeeze your head" comment, yeah it was unacceptable, but when someone I don't know starts piling on calling me mr bogus and whatever else, without even being involved, well you know what happens when people open their mouths and start name calling. It comes back. I posted all my slips and a pic of the car correctly, gave 5 or 6 verified slips to corroborate, and there is no mystery about what i actually did. So that is far from bogus if you ask me.

This whole issue would have been a non issue if instead of saying "he posted that info to make himself feel better about himself" you had just emailed me and said "we don't want that info in the posts because it causes confusion, i would have happily removed it. Instead I saw it as name calling and of course I am going to get pissed about it. Also part of teh issue again is i think you thought the second set of timeslips I posted was a repeat of the first set, with me just adding in the DA info, when it was really a new set of runs from a subsequent weekend. Honest mistake, I understand why you may have thought I was reposting and being a jackass, but just like you asked me, read a bit more closely or just come to me in email and ask me whats up, instead of making escalating comments.

I am ready to move on if everyone else is.

I was able to pull low 1.8 60fts all day long when my car was stock. Now that i have a few mods i can get 1.7s. And guess what they were in weather just as hot and DA actually higher then yours. If you would like to meet up at a track i can give you some pointers on how to get low 1.8s with a rs4 maybe even better since they make more power then a s4. Maybe instead of adding more power you should practice launching the car. If you cant get it out of the hole now what makes you think more power will get it out of the hole any better? Also i have cut many 1.7 60fts and i am on the STOCK CLUTCH. there are not many poeple that are pulling 60fts like me let alone on the stock clutch. The whole point of this is that an rs4 stock can do a 1.8 60ft, just need the right driver. Or maybe you should do some more practice. And if anyone that is local and has a rs4 i will gladly make a few passes down the drag strip for them. Anyone that wants to do this just send me an IM.

[sakimano]

if anyone that is local and has a rs4 i will gladly make a few passes down the drag strip for them. Anyone that wants to do this just send me an IM.

hired gun

[mickf29]

Thanks for the offer, I would love to get some on track tips. I am not saying it can't be done, i only said nobody I know hits the track with their RS4 has ever done it, and only a couple who said they did do it have never really validated it.

I am going to make a few more tries at it this weekend, see if I can get a sub 1.9, try some other techniques. Really I am only doing this drag stuff for validation of mods when I do start them. More fun to be had lapping in my mind. but this is definitely a kick too!

I read someone put a really nice Sachs clutch with lightened flywheel in their RS4 and they love it. They haven't had it out yet, but apparently they can really feel the difference.

And yeah, i do need alot more practice! BTW got any slips showing the sub 1.9sec 60' on your stock S4?

[cabracco85]

Thanks for the offer, I would love to get some on track tips. I am not saying it can't be done, i only said nobody I know hits the track with their RS4 has ever done it, and only a couple who said they did do it have never really validated it.

I am going to make a few more tries at it this weekend, see if I can get a sub 1.9, try some other techniques. Really I am only doing this drag stuff for validation of mods when I do start them. More fun to be had lapping in my mind. but this is definitely a kick too!

I read someone put a really nice Sachs clutch with lightened flywheel in their RS4 and they love it. They haven't had it out yet, but apparently they can really feel the difference.

And yeah, i do need alot more practice! BTW got any slips showing the sub 1.9sec 60' on your stock S4?

I have alot of them. i have alot of 1.7s too(not stock). send me your email and i can send you some scans

[cabracco85]

hired gun

I will drive any type of car that someone wants me to give it a try. Weather i do better then the owner or others doesnt matter to me since it will be fun

[mickf29]

Agreed!

[jfunkey]

Great now were all friends again.

Cabarocco is the man. If he can't get a car to 60' then its not going to happen. Bro your new in the RS4 give it time. Reall excited to see better times. so nice to see a guy with a RS4 track his car. Now you need to get some video so we can enjoy it with you.

[sway]

You are assuming you are the "right" person. It is so unbelievably arrogant what you just stated. All others are wrong because you are right. Audizine B6/B7 S4/RS4 1/4mile thread is not the only source of valid information on this planet. Just because there are differing opinions does not mean they are all wrong except the one you subscribe to. i don't mind taking advice from people, but not when that person tells me first my whole post and method is bogus, calls me names, berates my friends for being the ones who are wrong, and gets upset that I won't subscribe to his version of 1/4 mile supremacy.

I have nothing more to discuss with you, jfunky, so don't waste your typing energy.

Don't take that the wrong guy, Jfunkey is one of the good guys here on this site. I always have friends that know about cars trying to give me advice and help, but this car is different and they don't understand it as well as some of these guys. No matter how it might have sounded, take some time to listen to some of this advice and try for yourself and see if it works.

[jfunkey]

Don't take that the wrong guy, Jfunkey is one of the good guys here on this site. I always have friends that know about cars trying to give me advice and help, but this car is different and they don't understand it as well as some of these guys. No matter how it might have sounded, take some time to listen to some of this advice and try for yourself and see if it works.

Thanks sway its clear he isn't interested in anything other then what he thinks. He hasn't been doing anything but arguing with himself sene this started. For someone that dosn't care about this 1/4 data info he sure is going on about it. The funny thing is the people that care are speaking out. Some peope wouldn't know good info if it fell on them.

With the facts out there you just can't help peolpe who are all about them self and not the facts. Thus the attacks and endless rants. Dam this was a nice thread too.

F it. Im going to follow your way of thinking, and go ask a blind person for directions and see if he can tell me what it looks like in florida. Since they have never seen it and cant they are the ones I sould ask

But you already got it worked out with your 20 posts. ha haha what ever. You should keep bashing me cause I hit the report button. The funny thing is all this started off by people not following the rules..

Ive edited my post and will continue to do so in the spirit of the thread and respect for all the guys that come here for info. There is still some stuff left for others to clean up.

[hot2trots4]

Can't we all just get along and let this thread just be about posting times, mod lists and conditions????

I think corrected times are NOT a good way to go. Anything in theory causes more drama and speculation. I figure if you are serious enough about running a good number, then you should weather watch, work on cooling off procedures, perfect launching, get better at shifting, find the optimal shift points for each gear, optimize tire air pressure, etc. You can go a long way with just experience and seat time with your car at a given track.

It is much easier to launch at 5000 rpm than it is to launch at 3500rpm, it just takes time patience and skill. I have seen many people made to look like fools for making such blanket statements. Tire compound, Tire pressure, track prep, temp, humidity, time of day or night, launch technique and many other factors play into traction. So you can NEVER say you can't launch at XXXX rpm unless you have been at that exact track in the exact same conditions. Such assumptions show ignorance in the world of drag racing. For example, many B5 guys over the years with tracks that don't hook well launch at 3000 to 3500rpm and others at better tracks launch at 5000rpm plus. There is a HUGE discrepency. Also the driver is a huge factor, many say it can't be done but the BOTTOM LINE is that many people just can't do it. So since they can't their ego makes them claim it can't be done. That would be like saying that it is impossible to dunk a basketball on a 10ft hoop just because you couldn't, however we all know this is not true. I hope that analogy clears it up, since driving a car is a skill that is part talent and part experience just like any other sport.

One piece of advice I have is that if you want your clutch to live with hard launches in an AWD car then NEVER do a launch where you slip the clutch. Unless of course you have a 6 puck race clutch that loves the heat. 95% of clutches will not last long doing this on an AWD car. The best way I have found is by "shocking" the tires and getting them to spin some. I would rather put extra wear on my tires, than extra wear on my clutch. Tire replacement labor is a lot cheaper than clutch labor. I know some worry about driveline damage, but this is usually caused from wheel hop (car shaking violently) which is usually from too soft of a shock or a worn shock.

Years ago many people said that it was IMPOSSIBLE to cut a 1.7 60ft, 1.6 60ft, 1.5 60ft etc without slicks. This was said for years. Now all those barriers have been broken. Even street cars on street tires have cut 1.7 60fts (cabracco for example here in the B6/B7 Section). So I think making blanket statements will make you look like a fool and that is what the others like Jfunky are trying to save you from doing.

My .02

<resume thread>

[mickf29]

New run tonight, will post slip later:

60': 1.884
1/8th: 8.61
1/4 mile: 13.403
1/4mile mph: 102.8

1/4mile speed was a bit slow, not the best 2nd to 3rd shift. But super happy with the 60', broke 1.9sec. Revved at 3900rpm for launch.

temp was ~74degs out. Didn't do anymore runs, it was motorcycle night so not a lot of chances to go. I was hoping to go again, was sure with some better shifts I would have had 13.1 or so. I was a full 1mph below my best top speed.

[Tek4ever]

Nice...congratz breaking ino the 1.8's :)

[FarmerBob]

Nice runs Mick.

[mickf29]

X-Post from QuattroWorld

http://forums.quattroworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/11271.phtml

now this is feathering!

[jfunkey]

Bro that just went loose when your boy drove the car. All the launching at 5k+ started to destroy that long before that happened. My advice wasn't to be a dick but to prevent that. It only takes a few high RPM launches to start breaking down that material.

The good news is you get to upgrade your clutch and shoot for those 12's. I would check around before you get the clutch from the dealer. There are several performance shops that might be able to get you a better deal. Both parts and labor

[FarmerBob]

What Jfunky said... Mick, do yourself a favor and call JHM and send him your parts before plunking down $3200 for this job at the dealer. You will do the RS4 community a great service b/c from your car will then spring a JHM lightweight flywheel for the RS4, plus a disc with much better and grippier material (new JHM RS4 clutch package), and the loss of much weight and rotational mass. Your RS4 will be able to launch harder (although 5K rpm clutch drops aren't really necessary to get the best time), will spool up and rev faster, and will be more durable than sticking back in OEM dealer parts. The dealer parts will also be more expensive to boot. Just a thought outside the box.