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  1. #321
    Registered Member Four Rings B6JoeS4's Avatar
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    Squiddy, that's exactly why these things are dropping like flies at 100k+. Poor maintenance intervals, improper warm up/cool down, and shitty oil.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall834 View Post
    How many miles did you have the cold rattle for? How many miles are on your car right now?
    It's always had the cold rattle, but I have only had the car since 83k. I have 98k now.

  2. #322
    Established Member Two Rings marshall834's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquiddyB6S4 View Post
    Audi didn't set a life expectancy for these parts anywhere. Their design engineers probably did the best they could to give it life, but with low production volume comes limited budgets for development as well, and since all of these parts are unique to this car, that's not good for us. The bean counters, advertisers, and lawyers who stretched the service intervals to 10k miles didn't do the car any favors. Also not helping are the previous owners who figured that because on other cars, they used to go 5k when told to go 3k and they were fine, then going 12k when told to go 10k must still be fine on their new car. People who don't understand how an engine works or at least appreciate the violent forces inside are much more likely to figure that their lunch date with their girlfriend is much more important than getting the oil change done this week. I told my girlfriend that just driving down the highway, each of my pistons undergoes acceleration equal to thousands of times the acceleration due to gravity on Earth, and that that acceleration changes direction 100 times per second. I said "that is why I'm fine with paying $170 for 10 quarts of ultra premium oil."

    In any case, Audi's original documentation remains legally unaltered, and states that the timing components are good for the life of the vehicle. As we know, this is not always true.
    Good point.

    Besides using a good oil and changing it within 5K miles, what else can we do (if anything) to help minimize the issue?
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  3. #323
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    I realise that this would require people to be near 200k mi, and the sample size might be rather small, but the new chain tensioners/guides have a new part #, right? Has anyone experienced a failure with the new ones? I ask this because I already have the new ones in my car, and I have no issues, (mine were done at 65k mi), and I'm curious if I should expect to do it again at 165k, or if these ones last longer?

    FWIW, the car I came from was a rather modest Toyota Matrix. I know those cars like the back of my hand, and have helped replace motors/supercharge/turbocharge/pretty much everything those econoboxes, and they use the same style of tensioner on their single chain, and I have never ever heard of one failing ever. I've seen a few even get up over 2-300k mi (even one guy who apparently has over 400k mi).

    Now, cracked piston lands, blown up oil pumps, and spun bearings galore. But no broken chain tensioners on motors with an 8500rpm redline. Surely the technology is out there.

  4. #324
    Veteran Member Four Rings vdubjetta02's Avatar
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    It will be 2015 before I hit 100,000 miles in my B6, So I have some time to not worry & keep up on my Oil changes.
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  5. #325
    Veteran Member Four Rings JRMSLINEA4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vdubjetta02 View Post
    It will be 2015 before I hit 100,000 miles in my B6, So I have some time to not worry & keep up on my Oil changes.
    Got you beat.. buy my current mileage per yr. it will be around 2022..
    by then I most likely will have a used Audi space ship.
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  6. #326
    Veteran Member Four Rings SquiddyB6S4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnm View Post
    . . . they use the same style of tensioner on their single chain, and I have never ever heard of one failing ever. I've seen a few even get up over 2-300k mi (even one guy who apparently has over 400k mi).

    Now, cracked piston lands, blown up oil pumps, and spun bearings galore. But no broken chain tensioners on motors with an 8500rpm redline. Surely the technology is out there.
    Tensioners fail on all cars if you wait long enough. High-strung Euro sports cars especially so. Small production number cars especially so. I bet your Toyota's timing chain was on the front of the motor, rather than sandwiched between the hot engine and the hot flywheel. It probably also had a small oil capacity, helping the oil warm up quickly and provide good protection more of the time. Besides, nobody said tensioner failure was a guarantee on this car. It's not unheard of, but it's not the norm.
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  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquiddyB6S4 View Post
    Tensioners fail on all cars if you wait long enough. High-strung Euro sports cars especially so. Small production number cars especially so. I bet your Toyota's timing chain was on the front of the motor, rather than sandwiched between the hot engine and the hot flywheel. It probably also had a small oil capacity, helping the oil warm up quickly and provide good protection more of the time. Besides, nobody said tensioner failure was a guarantee on this car. It's not unheard of, but it's not the norm.
    It was more a reference to the fact that the tensioners being made of plastic isn't a problem; many companies use that style, and they generally don't fail.

  8. #328
    Veteran Member Four Rings crabpot's Avatar
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    They generally don't fail on this car either, but it happens.

  9. #329
    Veteran Member Four Rings vdubjetta02's Avatar
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    there is an amazing thread on ******************* about why they fail....
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  10. #330
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    Timing chain replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcoog View Post
    It's funny that the thread started out as a tensioner issue and then after an engine picture is posted people freak out about the plastic tensioners. As mentioned previously other manufacturers use plastic tensionsers as well. All the ford motors I've worked on (100+ motors) have had plastic tensioners and I've never had an issue with one of them. I've never had to swap guides because of a wear issue (even on high mileage motors). However, I have had to swap tensioners because they wouldn't pump up. Chances are you'll have a tensioner go bad before a guide would ever go bad. Stop worrying about the plastic guides!

    If you are quoted $5k+ to fix this issue then look for another mechanic. Even if it takes three full days to fix (24hrs total) at a crazy rate of $160/hr that is still under $4k. You could also look at getting a low mileage salvage yard motor with a warranty and selling the old motor off to recoup some costs.
    I just the entire timing chain replacement on my buddys S4 4.2l. He had a quote from an Audi dealer I am not sure which one but he was quoted at $3600 total. I did it for$2000 and he spent around $500 on parts. Wasnt so bad of a job took a few days but I took my time and he helped out also. It came apart and went together fairly easy enough. I would definately do it again for that price;)

  11. #331
    Registered Member Four Rings B6JoeS4's Avatar
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    They're technically nylon. No plastic

  12. #332
    Veteran Member Three Rings noznab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autoWItech81 View Post
    I just the entire timing chain replacement on my buddys S4 4.2l. He had a quote from an Audi dealer I am not sure which one but he was quoted at $3600 total. I did it for$2000 and he spent around $500 on parts. Wasnt so bad of a job took a few days but I took my time and he helped out also. It came apart and went together fairly easy enough. I would definately do it again for that price;)
    What parts did he replace for $500? The tensioners alone are nearly a grand a piece
    A few mods here and there

  13. #333
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by autoWItech81 View Post
    I just the entire timing chain replacement on my buddys S4 4.2l. He had a quote from an Audi dealer I am not sure which one but he was quoted at $3600 total. I did it for$2000 and he spent around $500 on parts. Wasnt so bad of a job took a few days but I took my time and he helped out also. It came apart and went together fairly easy enough. I would definately do it again for that price;)

    yeah can you elaborate on what exactly was replaced?

  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by B6JoeS4 View Post
    They're technically nylon. No plastic
    Err it's a weird universe in which nylon isn't called a plastic.

    Don't get me wrong - I've worked with a lot of different thermoform/thermoset polymers and I'm not saying plastic isn't perfectly OK for an application like this. What most people don't understand is these plastics are "filled" with various things - fibers, minerals, metals, etc. so it's not just like melted down nylon stockings... That's why it works fine in this applications in a lot of engines...

    The argument to be had with Audi is more sticking the stuff on the back of the engine and making it difficult to maintain

  15. #335
    Veteran Member Three Rings J0HN_R1's Avatar
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    Just got my car back today from the shop, tensioners (plural) went @ 155k KM (98k miles).

    $5000 ($4400 covered by warranty) and 6 weeks later (he's super back-logged), my car runs like a champ. George @ Tune Dub rocks.

    * rental car cost $600-$650, which warranty only covers $250 of... All said 'n' done, I still paid $1000 +/-...

  16. #336
    Established Member Two Rings maskinut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nimski62 View Post
    TDI at warm idle??? that sucks.. these motors are made for 100k and thats it.
    you aint kidding
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  17. #337
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by J0HN_R1 View Post
    Just got my car back today from the shop, tensioners (plural) went @ 155k KM (98k miles).

    $5000 ($4400 covered by warranty) and 6 weeks later (he's super back-logged), my car runs like a champ. George @ Tune Dub rocks.

    * rental car cost $600-$650, which warranty only covers $250 of... All said 'n' done, I still paid $1000 +/-...
    Eff me. I always wondered what he'd charge for when/if the day comes. I'm sitting at 112K right now. What were your oil change intervals like?

  18. #338
    Senior Member Three Rings Lornnn's Avatar
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    looking at coming from a B5A4 to a B6 but this entire topic may be a deal breaker..

    i'm no stranger to DIY maintenance and repairs with the 2.8 which leaves little room to work in the engine bay
    but getting at the rear of this V8 sounds like an entirely different headache

  19. #339
    Veteran Member Four Rings vdubjetta02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lornnn View Post
    looking at coming from a B5A4 to a B6 but this entire topic may be a deal breaker..

    i'm no stranger to DIY maintenance and repairs with the 2.8 which leaves little room to work in the engine bay
    but getting at the rear of this V8 sounds like an entirely different headache
    I like to tell people, Do NOT buy an S4 unless you have safety net of cash for maintnence repairs if/when they arrise.
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  20. #340
    Senior Member Three Rings Lornnn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vdubjetta02 View Post
    I like to tell people, Do NOT buy an S4 unless you have safety net of cash for maintnence repairs if/when they arrise.
    thats a given, i'm concerned about physically being able to carry out repairs
    but if an engine pull at 100k is necessary for this job then ehh.. might settle for another B5

  21. #341
    Veteran Member Four Rings R&Cs4's Avatar
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    People think that this happens in all B6/7 S4s. The fact is, it doesnt. You only hear about the ones that do. Main thing- maintain your car and it will treat you right.
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  22. #342
    Established Member Two Rings mlittleton's Avatar
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    This still scares the crap out of me. I'm at about 73k now and worried if I should try to trade the car out at 80 to 85k or so. Which would suck becuase then it would be a waste to do anymore mods. Exhaust, tune etc.. Any reports of B6's or B7's hitting 150k+ without any timing chain issues?
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  23. #343
    Veteran Member Four Rings BCsniper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lornnn View Post
    thats a given, i'm concerned about physically being able to carry out repairs
    but if an engine pull at 100k is necessary for this job then ehh.. might settle for another B5
    An engine pull is necessary to replace the turbo's on a B5 S4, so I see the timing service as being roughly equal to that. The cost would often be about the same depending on what turbo's the B5 guys put in

    Quote Originally Posted by mlittleton View Post
    This still scares the crap out of me. I'm at about 73k now and worried if I should try to trade the car out at 80 to 85k or so. Which would suck because then it would be a waste to do anymore mods. Exhaust, tune etc.. Any reports of B6's or B7's hitting 150k+ without any timing chain issues?
    Yes there have been several S4's to get above 100k miles with no problems (My car was at 130k when I sold it and had no timing problems). There are some B6'ers who have gotten to and above 150k miles but it is more rare. The timing components were redone for B7 so their longevity should be even better than B6's. The rebuild does cost a lot but it's part of being an S4 owner. You'd go through a very similar case if you owned a B5 and had to pull the engine to replace turbos. It's part of the game, you got to pay to play. Having to do this once every 120-200k miles seems pretty reasonable to me, even if the cost is high

  24. #344
    Established Member Two Rings maskinut's Avatar
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    I had my b6 for sale with 105k @ $14,900. Everything was running great and lots of interest. I got too busy to actively sell it and let the interested buyers stack up in email. @ 110k the cam adjusters went. My dealers gave me 8k for it.

    For some reason I just bought a 2012. Not logical. But, fun to drive.
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  25. #345
    Established Member Two Rings mlittleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCsniper View Post

    Yes there have been several S4's to get above 100k miles with no problems (My car was at 130k when I sold it and had no timing problems). There are some B6'ers who have gotten to and above 150k miles but it is more rare. The timing components were redone for B7 so their longevity should be even better than B6's. The rebuild does cost a lot but it's part of being an S4 owner. You'd go through a very similar case if you owned a B5 and had to pull the engine to replace turbos. It's part of the game, you got to pay to play. Having to do this once every 120-200k miles seems pretty reasonable to me, even if the cost is high
    Well said and makes me feel quite a bit better.


    Quote Originally Posted by maskinut View Post
    I had my b6 for sale with 105k @ $14,900. Everything was running great and lots of interest. I got too busy to actively sell it and let the interested buyers stack up in email. @ 110k the cam adjusters went. My dealers gave me 8k for it.

    For some reason I just bought a 2012. Not logical. But, fun to drive.
    The new S4's are very sharp looking cars. I would certainly miss the v8 but I know the 6 S/C is comporable. What are your thoughts on it compared to your B6?
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  26. #346
    Veteran Member Three Rings Kem's Avatar
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    As much as I love the sound of the V8, the 400whp the B8's are putting down with a tune/sc pulley are hard to argue with.

    Quote Originally Posted by mlittleton View Post
    Well said and makes me feel quite a bit better.
    The new S4's are very sharp looking cars. I would certainly miss the v8 but I know the 6 S/C is comporable. What are your thoughts on it compared to your B6?
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  27. #347
    Established Member Two Rings mlittleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kem View Post
    As much as I love the sound of the V8, the 400whp the B8's are putting down with a tune/sc pulley are hard to argue with.

    Oh wow I hadn't stopped to think about the SC'd 6 being much more tunable. Seems there is always much more performance to be squeezed out of a turbo or SC'd whip. 400hp is no joke!
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  28. #348
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    2004 audi s4 b6....154000 miles. Slight rattle on cold start and regular maintenance...that's about it. no timing chain tensioner issues yet(knock on wood) lol

  29. #349
    Established Member Two Rings buck15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weah10 View Post
    2004 audi s4 b6....154000 miles. Slight rattle on cold start and regular maintenance...that's about it. no timing chain tensioner issues yet(knock on wood) lol
    When did your cold rattle start?

  30. #350
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    cold rattle started around 78k miles mark. Initially scared the heck out of me, but I was informed by both Audi dealership shop and by an independent mechanic that this is "normal" lol...I notice that the noise is less after oil changes and reappears at near the mid point/end of my oil change intervals( used to change every 5k, but since I hit the 100k mark, I do it every 3k). I pretty much resigned myself to not "if something happens" but "when"lol. Thus the necessity of my "emergency/unplanned" repair fund....

  31. #351
    Veteran Member Three Rings Kem's Avatar
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    I get the cold rattle everyday, switching to Motul 8100 x-cess didn't change a thing. It's the standard 1 second rattle. Never rattles after that.

    Would a Blackstone labs oil analysis find anything if tensioners or guides were breaking down?
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  32. #352
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    I have now 120k mil on my B6 and I get the cold rattle everyday and well it is how it is. If it would do the same noise when warm and all the time, I would worry about it, but on a cold engine when there is no oil pressure on the chain tensioner I think it is more or less normal on this engine. It just is noise making, oil eating beast and I just love it :)

  33. #353
    Active Member Two Rings Latosa's Avatar
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    well first you will see this is my first post ,second a lot of good info in this thread I read it all in one day , not new to audi,vw,porsche
    ect european cars ,let me introduce my self I'm licensed aircraft tech and automotive tech for 18 years now.I have been doing roadracing,drag racing ,motorcycles,custom tuning,and I do all my fabrication my since I'm certified TIG welder also .I just got a B6 S4 from a friend dirty cheap with 40k on it and yes mine rattles sometimes cold and hot ramdomly I 'm second owner of the car and the first owner took care of the oilservices always .So now not beat the dead horse any more !!!!!has some one has tried to create a way to PRIME THE OIL SYSTEM before any start up, reason I asking is because I know the way to do this . and that would prevent all the parts related to timming to wear out do to cavitation in the oil lubrication system ,that the parts would wear anyways yes ,will they last longer yes ,will this solve the problem don't know .if I'm going to try it yes ,just need to get all the sfuff i need .I hope this does not offend nobody and excuse my grammar since my first language is ESpanish.

  34. #354
    Veteran Member Four Rings ilko's Avatar
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    I've thought about priming the oil system as well. I do it in my air-cooled Porsche if I don't drive it for a few weeks. On the Porsche it's pretty easy - remove the fuel pump relay and then crank until the oil pressure gauge goes to the 4-5 bar mark. The Porsche also uses much thicker oil - 20W-50.

    I suppose you could pull the fuel pump fuse on the Audi as well and crank it to build oil pressure. But I don't think that's a very good solution on a car that's driven frequently. I'd also like to see when the oil pressure rises but unfortunately there is no way to do that on the Audi since the oil pressure sensor only has 2 readings - "yes or no" oil pressure.

    But if there is a way to prime the oil pump the same way you prime the fuel pump with the ignition on then we are in business
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  35. #355
    Active Member Two Rings Latosa's Avatar
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    But if there is a way to prime the oil pump the same way you prime the fuel pump with the ignition on then we are in business


    By the way that is what I'm refering ,turn your ing on wait 2 to 5 sec and that's it .start your car build the pressure without cranking the engine .I have done it in all my racing cars.Fuel prime is another thing separate from the oil also can be integrated too but we have that already.is something that is been around for ever since world war II used in aircraft with radial engines.

  36. #356
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    correct me if i am wrong, but the oil pump is driven off the chain?? thus the only way is to somehow turn over the engine...

    I believe audi's latest software update makes the engine crank for an extra second or two to adress this problem...

  37. #357
    Veteran Member Four Rings ilko's Avatar
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    Oct 20 2007
    AZ Member #
    21942
    My Garage
    997TT, 993, W211 E55 AMG Wagon
    Location
    Upstate Manhattan

    I don't think you're wrong, the oil pump is chain driven. Same as on my 911, that's why it requires cranking to prime it.

    How would we know if we have the latest software update?
    B7 S4 Avant - sold
    997 turbo
    993 Carrera


    Previous: 993 Carrera 4S / 964 RS America / 964 Carrera 4 / 944 Turbo / MK4 Golf R32 / C5 allroad / B6 USP Avant

  38. #358
    Established Member Two Rings
    Join Date
    Oct 03 2011
    AZ Member #
    82061
    My Garage
    2004 Imola S4, 2009 R1
    Location
    Sacramento

    Quote Originally Posted by ilko View Post
    I don't think you're wrong, the oil pump is chain driven. Same as on my 911, that's why it requires cranking to prime it.

    How would we know if we have the latest software update?
    go to audi and pay them $180 to connect a cable to your car!

  39. #359
    Veteran Member Four Rings ilko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 20 2007
    AZ Member #
    21942
    My Garage
    997TT, 993, W211 E55 AMG Wagon
    Location
    Upstate Manhattan

    Heading over there first thing in the morning!

    /sarcasm
    B7 S4 Avant - sold
    997 turbo
    993 Carrera


    Previous: 993 Carrera 4S / 964 RS America / 964 Carrera 4 / 944 Turbo / MK4 Golf R32 / C5 allroad / B6 USP Avant

  40. #360
    Active Member Two Rings Latosa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 17 2011
    AZ Member #
    78361
    My Garage
    1986 scirroco 16v,1982 rabbit 16v turbo 543whp sold,s4 2004 6mt
    Location
    Aguadilla,P.R.

    the system I'm talking is not cranking the engine is just turning your ignition on waiting 2 to 5 sec. and starting your car ,its called sump prime as we called it in aviation it only consist of a reservoir with either a 1 quart extra , a head pressure,and a valve electrically controlled when you open your swicht or press your clucht to start your car.

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