K04...GT2X...GT28r...GTRS/GT28rs - Official Turbo Comparison

[jayiszraw]

Back from the dead, but reading your final comments to the post opening this thread, I needed to respond. The GT2X is a non player IMO, I don't understand why it's even used by the tuners that offer it. However, to answer your "question", there is a couple of Garrett turbos that seem like they are obvious contenders for the lower hp range upgrades, yet NO ONE has mentioned them or uses them. Specifically, the GT2554 and/or GT2560 turbos are medium frame, (same outline size as the GT28 series,) both oil and water cooled, and are both dual ball bearing center sections. In addition, both of these turbos are sized to provide excellent low rpm boost spoolup responsivness, and are capable of up to ~ 250> ~ 270 hp at reletivly low max rpms. In fact these are the two turbos I'm decidinig between for an eliminator style upgrade when my K-03 needs replacement. I don't understand why these two turbos have been ignored by tuning community, they are both suitable upgrades for the K-03/04, and are able to out perform the k-04 while not requiring special ECU tuning that is different from the tuning available for the k-04. The GT2554 will run better on stock ECU software, than a K-03 does on stock ECU software too.
It seems like the tuners don't even know these two turbos exist.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...R_471171_3.htm

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...R_466541_4.htm

Adding to the usablity of the two lower range units linked above, Garrett is releasing the GTX compressors that offer 10+ % additional air flow with increase efficiency compared to the GT style compressor impeller design, available in 2010.

so basically you can run either one with a stock tune and it will run better than stock? i that correct? as well as it being able to run a k03 bigg injector tune/k04 tune?

[kneel]

Try Google.
The way I am planning on using one of these turbos, is too use an Eliminator turbine housing from the GT 2860 Elim, so that the turbo will bolt up to the stock exhaust manifold just like any Eliminator setup.

ok that kinda makes sence to me.

so where does one find all these parts/peices. looks my turbo is shot again..........i think! yesterday my car started blowing out blue smoke out the tail pipes. everytime i take off from a traffic light, or stop sign etc. i get a nice puff of blue smoke, and sitting now at idle it does it alittle

[mnkyA4]

ok that kinda makes sence to me.

so where does one find all these parts/peices. looks my turbo is shot again..........i think! yesterday my car started blowing out blue smoke out the tail pipes. everytime i take off from a traffic light, or stop sign etc. i get a nice puff of blue smoke, and sitting now at idle it does it alittle

I'm trying to see if ATP or 034 can help me with this. I've tried to email ATP regarding using a eliminator housiing with the GT2554 but no response. This was last year so I might have to ask them or 034 about it.

[EBG 18T]

so basically you can run either one with a stock tune and it will run better than stock? i that correct? as well as it being able to run a k03 bigg injector tune/k04 tune?

you are not going to be able to run one of those turbo's optimaly on stock tune. You maybe be able to use a 'tweaked' K04 file, but it will not be optimized.

[a4darkness]

Good point.

t will not be optimized.

Since the hybrid K04s setup is a bit rare, you mind elaborating on the numbers, characteristics, software etc. comparative to a regular K04 setup? It would make a solid addition to this thread.

[EBG 18T]

Good point.


Since the hybrid K04s setup is a bit rare, you mind elaborating on the numbers, characteristics, software etc. comparative to a regular K04 setup? It would make a solid addition to this thread.

Blouch the builder of my BW Hybrid does not release the specefics of what he uses, So i don't have any measurements. I did opt for the turbine porting. The link below will give you the description. Blouch BW Hybrid

The boost comes on very low in the rpm range like the pj K04 but builds and holds much longer than the pj K04. Boost holds flat from 2850-6700rpms, at 6700rpms the boost tapers down.

The TT225 386cc injectors were maxed out, so i am using another Bosch injector from MTM that when sent to be balanced; flowed at ~430cc. My software is a custom solution from Altituned (Brian @ Avalon Motorsports)to optimize everything.

Blouch does not sell alot of these Hybrid BW setups and questioned me on what i was going to do about software, fueling and supporting modifications before we proceeded with the order. Blouch was very tight lipped about the specs, and provided me boost spec's to keep it within the turbo's efficeny range for this motor.

I will have dyno charts hopefully by the end of January. I just need to get down to CT and get to the dyno. So depending on work and the weather will dictate the timing.

If you have specefic questions let me know, i will try to answer them.

[diagnosticator]

Blouch the builder of my BW Hybrid does not release the specefics of what he uses, So i don't have any measurements. I did opt for the turbine porting. The link below will give you the description. Blouch BW Hybrid

The boost comes on very low in the rpm range like the pj K04 but builds and holds much longer than the pj K04. Boost holds flat from 2850-6700rpms, at 6700rpms the boost tapers down.

The TT225 386cc injectors were maxed out, so i am using another Bosch injector from MTM that when sent to be balanced; flowed at ~430cc. My software is a custom solution from Altituned (Brian @ Avalon Motorsports)to optimize everything.

Blouch does not sell alot of these Hybrid BW setups and questioned me on what i was going to do about software, fueling and supporting modifications before we proceeded with the order. Blouch was very tight lipped about the specs, and provided me boost spec's to keep it within the turbo's efficeny range for this motor.

I will have dyno charts hopefully by the end of January. I just need to get down to CT and get to the dyno. So depending on work and the weather will dictate the timing.

If you have specefic questions let me know, i will try to answer them.

That doesn't sound like Blouch really knows what the specs are in fact. No wonder they don't want to provide all of the relevant performance data. Tight lipped is a cover for they don't know. IMO.

[diagnosticator]

you are not going to be able to run one of those turbo's optimaly on stock tune. You maybe be able to use a 'tweaked' K04 file, but it will not be optimized.

Since the turbo reacts to the available exhaust thermal and mass flow energy, it will develope boost accordingly. The turbo is not the controlling factor, it is adaptive to the energy balance of compressor power absorption, and turbine power level available relative to the engine load and mass air flow rate required to burn the fuel necessary to develop the torque required to satisfy the load on the engine.
The Garrett BB turbos are more efficient than the k-03/04, and will out perform the stock turbo using stock ECU tuning. The engine ECU doesn't care what turbo is generating the boosted mass air flow, provided the turbo is capable of achieving the mass air flow rate required at the charge air boost pressures that satisfy the demand or requested values programmed in the ECU maps.

[EBG 18T]

That doesn't sound like Blouch really knows what the specs are in fact. No wonder they don't want to provide all of the relevant performance data. Tight lipped is a cover for they don't know. IMO.

Ok.

They offer several turbo options that they refuse to provide specs. My collegue has one on his Subaru (they don't provide more than basic info). With 30 years of turbo rebuilding experience, I don't think it has to do with their lack of knowledge. They have a few niche products they don't market the spec's as they feel the product is propriatary. I attempted to provide the info i have, unfortunatly i don't have all the answers. Oh well.

The Garrett BB turbos are more efficient than the k-03/04, and will out perform the stock turbo using stock ECU tuning. The engine ECU doesn't care what turbo is generating the boosted mass air flow, provided the turbo is capable of achieving the mass air flow rate required at the charge air boost pressures that satisfy the demand or requested values programmed in the ECU maps.

Sounds like you got it all figured out. I wonder why more Auto manufactuers don't use Garrett BB's as OEM turbo's?

[a4darkness]

While my intent was not to spark debate over said turbo / company, it's certainly made for interesting reading. D, I'm recalling some discussion of a similar nature on the formerly non-ruined AW? Would have to search for, oh wait... their search doesn't work anymore.

All this aside, the one thing that stands out to me was:

Boost holds flat from 2850-6700rpms

I want to see a dyno. Not to prove anything, just cause I'm interested to see if this setup has created a steady and plateaued HP/TQ curve.

Thanks to you both... resume debate.

[EBG 18T]

I want to see a dyno. Not to prove anything, just cause I'm interested to see if this setup has created a steady and plateaued HP/TQ curve.

Thanks to you both... resume debate.

I have nothing to prove either. And don't really see anything to debate.

I am happy with what i have and provided the basic information i have, if folks want more info they can call Blouch direct. Once i get dyno's i will post them up. It is just another alternative on the market.

Some of us have to trust the turbo builders when we call and ask about options, and software provided when i need it tuned. I am not a turbo builder nor software tuner and provide on people that do that for a living.

[a4darkness]

Was not implying that you do. Maybe 'debate' carried a mildly negative connotation while 'discussion' would have been more appropriate. And your contribution here is appreciated.

I have nothing to prove either. And don't really see anything to debate.

I am happy with what i have and provided the basic information i have, if folks want more info they can call Blouch direct. Once i get dyno's i will post them up. It is just another alternative on the market.

Some of us have to trust the turbo builders when we call and ask about options, and software provided when i need it tuned. I am not a turbo builder nor software tuner and provide on people that do that for a living.

[EBG 18T]

Was not implying that you do. Maybe 'debate' carried a mildly negative connotation while 'discussion' would have been more appropriate. And your contribution here is appreciated.

I didn't mean for it to come accross like that.

Sometimes people (not you) jump on something without having all the facts. Unfortunatly i may not be able to provide the facts that people want.

The car feels the way i want, but to add to the discussions i figured it would get some dyno's done. This way there will be something on paper for comparison.

[NCAUDI]

For a kit like the ATP GTRS, what fuel system upgrades will we need to look at (other than injectors)?

[NightRoller USP]

Are the housings on a K03 and K04 the same?

I just bought a Nuespeed TIP but it didnt come with a adapter.....I need to know if its a 1.75" or 2" housing.

[michpan]

The Neuspeed TIP will fit the K04, it even fits my GT2x..


Michael

[diagnosticator]

Ok.

They offer several turbo options that they refuse to provide specs. My collegue has one on his Subaru (they don't provide more than basic info). With 30 years of turbo rebuilding experience, I don't think it has to do with their lack of knowledge. They have a few niche products they don't market the spec's as they feel the product is propriatary. I attempted to provide the info i have, unfortunatly i don't have all the answers. Oh well.

30 years turbo rebuilding experience, does not also qualify as fully capable of the required turbo design engineering know how that is claimed, IMO.

Workshop competence producing quality repairs and rebuilt turbos does not necessarily mean that mechanical engineering education and experience are acquired too, despite the implied claims by the companies statements.

Honestly, I don't think the spec sheet data is available, simply because the equipment and engineering design knowledge required are not available, and it is very time consuming to produce the performance data tests and is beyond the companies abilities. C'mon, no performance specifications and/or turbine/compressor maps? Must be so advanced that total secrecy is required to protect the companies exclusive products from being copied by Garrett.
I am not saying the turbos are not excellent quality, only that the company's credibility is compromised by the "tight lipped" absence of performance data, and the implied but inappropriate association of the long workshop experience being equivalent to qualified engineering design capabilities. The situation would not even exist if Blouch was upfront with everyone on the facts involved here.

Unfortunatley, turbos cannot be properly sized matched and tuned for any applications without the essential performance data normally offered by other manufatureres.

[EBG 18T]

30 years turbo rebuilding experience, does not also qualify as fully capable of the required turbo design engineering know how that is claimed, IMO.

Workshop competence producing quality repairs and rebuilt turbos does not necessarily mean that mechanical engineering education and experience are acquired too, despite the implied claims by the companies statements.

Honestly, I don't think the spec sheet data is available, simply because the equipment and engineering design knowledge required are not available, and it is very time consuming to produce the performance data tests and is beyond the companies abilities. C'mon, no performance specifications and/or turbine/compressor maps? Must be so advanced that total secrecy is required to protect the companies exclusive products from being copied by Garrett.
I am not saying the turbos are not excellent quality, only that the company's credibility is compromised by the "tight lipped" absence of performance data, and the implied but inappropriate association of the long workshop experience being equivalent to qualified engineering design capabilities. The situation would not even exist if Blouch was upfront with everyone on the facts involved here.

Unfortunatley, turbos cannot be properly sized matched and tuned for any applications without the essential performance data normally offered by other manufatureres.

I am honestly suprised it took you a couple weeks to come back and bash Blouch.

Credibility can be based on many things. In the non 'off the shelf' turbo world they have brought lots of intriguing products to the market. They have a reputation of tweaking an existing design to fill a specific customer need or desire. I doubt they are worried about Garrett or BW copying an idea from them. They are simply trying to fill a void and make a niche product. A Garrett GT28RS copyrighted and a mass produced turbo and is used on many applications. The compressor maps are readily avaliable.

The niche hybrids they build are small market specefic application setups, not mass marketed. They aren't going to spend the money to copyright anything like this as they will never be able to recoup the expenses. They are simply protecting their intrest from other small builders out there looking to get into a niche market. Their are less than 50 of these turbo's out there. Not exactly the same market share as a GT28RS or something like that. There are other builders out there that do the same thing.

I don't have compressor maps avalible so i can't give you the specs, so in some peoples book it must be poorly engineered since the info is not avaliable.

Bottom line is I purchased a product to fit a specefic need and this turbo did exactly what Blouch told me it would do.

Blouch

[diagnosticator]

I am honestly suprised it took you a couple weeks to come back and bash Blouch.

Credibility can be based on many things. In the non 'off the shelf' turbo world they have brought lots of intriguing products to the market. They have a reputation of tweaking an existing design to fill a specific customer need or desire. I doubt they are worried about Garrett or BW copying an idea from them. They are simply trying to fill a void and make a niche product. A Garrett GT28RS copyrighted and a mass produced turbo and is used on many applications. The compressor maps are readily avaliable.

The niche hybrids they build are small market specefic application setups, not mass marketed. They aren't going to spend the money to copyright anything like this as they will never be able to recoup the expenses. They are simply protecting their intrest from other small builders out there looking to get into a niche market. Their are less than 50 of these turbo's out there. Not exactly the same market share as a GT28RS or something like that. There are other builders out there that do the same thing.

I don't have compressor maps avalible so i can't give you the specs, so in some peoples book it must be poorly engineered since the info is not avaliable.

Bottom line is I purchased a product to fit a specefic need and this turbo did exactly what Blouch told me it would do.

Blouch

Maybe I didn't do very well avoiding misunderstanding my point. I agree that Blouch has lot's of relevant experience in the niche market, and I have no doubt that the products are first class quality from the hardware aspect. While the fact in your case is that the match is optimum or not is not important if you are satisfied with your install performance.
I remain mystified as to how a certain Blouch turbos can be evaluated and compared to performance goals without some established baseline knowledge regarding the actual performance capabilities to expect before hand. Being able to run the basic sizing numbers is key to this goal.
I guess I'm just put off by the way that Blouch avoids discussing the facts involved and can't provide the data to base their claims on.
I was being sarcastic about Garrett coping Bloch's designs anyway. Finally I am not bashing Blouch without reasonable justification, I am however critical of the way the company represents their products while skirting the reality of the situation from the factual vs. the pseudo facts they offer instead. Like I said before, if they where upfront with everyone instead of trying to avoid the matter with lots of smoke screen language, that would be a different case altogether.