Anyone here running RS6 turbos?

[FrimmelNoJerz]

Don't think it really matters whether i've been there in person or not. But the fact of the matter is Tony has been knee deep in shit with the guys over at VW Vortex...a few searches yields catastrophic results. He was literally run off of that forum because of his shady business.

would you mind sending me a link to these discrepencies about EPL on vortex? i looked around but was unsuccessful at finding any. if you dont want to post them on this thread just PM me or start one in the chatterbox.

[mike-2ptzero]

Ok, you cannot compare dyno numbers from GIAC's dyno to EPL's dyno....and when you do, you realize how much of a discrepancy there is. Now who's numbers would you trust? One of the most well-known and trusted tuners out there...or a shop in CT that toys with ME7?

The results are there and anyone who's making 470~ wheel hp on hybrids I call out to do it on a different dyno to compare. I'm willing to bet the numbers will drop by 40~ wheel.

A Vag GT kit hardly made 470 wheel on GIAC's dyno! And in comparison, on the same dyno, Moss made 500~ wheel with straight RS6's.

Just compare #'s from AWE and EPL, even then the EPL mustang dyno reads much higher then the AWE which is also setup to read like a dynojet which is slightly higher then the mustang at GIAC. Then there is the mustang at GST in norcal where my car gets dyno'd by 034 and it reads even lower then the GIAC dyno since it is setup to read like a dynodynamic, that is the dyno I put down 556whp with my A4.

Funny thing is that there is a A4 owner(Modified) that has dyno #'s from EPL and AWE on his along with CAPS times ran right after running on each dyno, EPL #'s were higher but yet had a much slower CAPS time.

Here is his sig

6.27 sec CAPS: 195 WHP , 186WT @AWE, 60F 10/07/06
6.40 sec CAPS: 220 WHP , 230WT @EPL, 64F 5/13/06

Real funny part is that we all know that a 1.8t with a K04 on pump gas with a normal GIAC chip doesn't make 220whp.

[lil' is 300]

would you mind sending me a link to these discrepencies about EPL on vortex? i looked around but was unsuccessful at finding any. if you dont want to post them on this thread just PM me or start one in the chatterbox.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2748402

[10SecS4]

Theres one thing we should all agree on and that is you cannot make a true 500whp or anything close to it on rs4/ko4s no matter who writes the software... You'll be fooling yourself and all the other new comers thinking its possible when its not, not even close...

Well what is your definition of a "true" 500whp? Which of the following dynos are "true," which are "false," and why?

Dyno Dynamics
Dynojet
Mustang

A handful of S4s have put down 500whp or more at EPL. I also know a few out in California that put down 500 wheel on Dynojets. Not sure if that's "true" or "false" to you, but why are you so hung up on HP numbers anyway? If my car put down 350whp on a Dyno Dynamics machine, I could care less. Same thing if it put down 500whp on a Dynojet. It's just a number. You don't race on a dyno, do you? I'm far more interested in the gain in HP between a baseline run and final run than I am about the peak number on a particular dyno. When you think about it, peak HP numbers by themselves are quite meaningless and trivial. An ET on the other hand, now that's a different story.

[10SecS4]

Pretty sure NYCVR6 was on a pump gas file running 11.7s... Maybe he had race gas in there but that doesnt do THAT much.... The cars your referring to are on Race files running race gas

He was running a pump gas tune, but was running race gas and advancing the timing using Lemmiwinks. I remember like it was yesterday because I was supposed to meet him there at the track with my red tip S4, but the turbos blew on the way and I had to have it towed. I remember I had my refrigerator door open when I was on the phone with him and we were discussing how much he should be advancing the timing in between runs.

[10SecS4]

Says who? I paid less for mine than 99% of you suckers pay for PJ K04's.

Let's see so much they wind up costing you in the long run. J/K

[Jesse S.]

Well what is your definition of a "true" 500whp? Which of the following dynos are "true," which are "false," and why?

Dyno Dynamics
Dynojet
Mustang

A handful of S4s have put down 500whp or more at EPL. I also know a few out in California that put down 500 wheel on Dynojets. Not sure if that's "true" or "false" to you, but why are you so hung up on HP numbers anyway? If my car put down 350whp on a Dyno Dynamics machine, I could care less. Same thing if it put down 500whp on a Dynojet. It's just a number. You don't race on a dyno, do you? I'm far more interested in the gain in HP between a baseline run and final run than I am about the peak number on a particular dyno. When you think about it, peak HP numbers by themselves are quite meaningless and trivial. An ET on the other hand, now that's a different story.

Everyone wants to brag how much their car puts down. Other car enthusiasts outside of the S4 community will approach you all the time and ask you that. I'm sure Mark has had to answer the swarm of people that ask on the streets what the BBB puts down.

[10SecS4]

At 3800 lbs?

Jaybquick's car trapped as high as 125-126 with OEM RS4 K04 turbos, but he does have some slight head work, RS4 cams, and a few other RS4 hardware. He also has a little bit of weight reduction in the form of the wheels, brakes, etc. but I'd be willing to bet his car is within a hundred pounds of yours.

Brent's car trapped 122-123 with the OEM RS4 K04s and weighed 3600-3650 with the driver. They were running no jack/spare, no passenger seat, no rear seats, no headlight, and no exhaust. They also ran these numbers at a track which is 2600ft above sea level. I won't talk further about that because I know Hood will then chime in and this thread will turn into a 20 page argument about elevation, density altitude, and N/A correction factors.

[10SecS4]

He just said he didnt push boost just a few degrees of timing, which btw are throughout the whole rev range, not like a good tune where they can make variations throughout the rev range... Also, all the things he did can also be done with Water/Meth injection... So say a guy could run 11.7s with full weight on pump gas with W/M? Anyone would buy that... I havent seen another full weight S4 hit 11s on a pump gas file yet

I ran 11's full weight on pump gas (Ultra 94 at the time) back in 2003, although it wasn't a pump gas file.

[10SecS4]

why not just street tune if no one cares about numbers... everyone cares about numbers if anyone told you other wise there full of shit.. if you spent 10k in mods and your car puts down 385whp and others r making 470whp with the same mods you would naturally raise 1 eye and be curious..

That's what I do with my blue car... Street tweak. I use the same starting RPM and same exact stretch of road. I record my car's acceleration using Mark P's "Any RPM" calculator and I typically use 4800-7200 RPMs in 3rd gear as my benchmark of choice. I'll then adjust the boost, timing, and/or AFR and see which combo yields the best acceleration. It beats the dyno hands down, especially since it's free (assuming you don't get speeding tickets, crash your car, etc.)

[10SecS4]

Running alcohol injection is very similar to running race gas. I trapped 121mph with pump gas, anything faster was on race gas.

Josh trapped 122 on race gas. Same weight as you and through a full exhaust even. Both your cars move.

[10SecS4]

methanol has at least a 110ron/mon octane rating and could go over 130. it burns much slower then any race gas out there so saying he was on pump only with meth injection is not impressive. when that meth runs out or clogs when a wot guess what happens? id rather just run race gas when at the track.

His ignition retard will go up? This isn't a DSM or Evo where if your alcohol injection runs out and you have no failsafe in place, you blow the motor. The ME7.1 is pretty kickass and makes it virtually impossible for somebody making adaptive channel changes to melt or blow something. You'd have to do something REALLY dumb like run 87 octane and max out the timing advance channel.

[Boris]

Seriously what a bunch of hens in here, squabbling about 40 horse, 30 horse? My gosh
we need to get back to the rs6 turbos and higher horse applications if were arguoing about fricken 40 horse who gives a crapp..we need more power so we dont give such a crap about 40 horse...


WHo give s a flying fffuck about how much epls dyno is over measuring if it is...by what 20 horse?10? 40? It cant be that off, man oh its off by 29 horse!? Compared to some perfect dyno in fricken the place where they keep the atomic clock?! Well Ill be damed


GIAC stays within limits it feels are safe, it has alot to lose if anything fails..

and EPL is willing to push past those limits IF a customer wants to.. Simple and plain..

bleah! GIAC! I bought their chip awhile ago, overpriced---those fricken racketeers I feel like someone shoved something up my @ss, I mean today separately from this discussion, I just feel like sometimes it felt like that, guys im sorry this doesnt have anything to do with anyone or anything here I think I just needed to vent, but ill leave my comment Its been a long stange week and I just i just want to work on my own dam car Im so sick of paying other peple for it, they always leave a smell in the car after its over, and the car just feeels like its been molested

and share. I love you ggearheads.

[NYCVR6]

Let's see so much they wind up costing you in the long run. J/K

Eh, if that's the case, im ok with it. Id buy another set tomorrow if i had to. Im not one of these whiney audi owners, looking to cut corners to save a few dollars. I bought an audi, decided to mod it, it's obviously going to be costly. Hell, ill be almost $4000 into a tranny and tranny parts within a month. I will have a spare one sitting around though

[Dr. Jekyll]

Just compare #'s from AWE and EPL, even then the EPL mustang dyno reads much higher then the AWE which is also setup to read like a dynojet which is slightly higher then the mustang at GIAC. Then there is the mustang at GST in norcal where my car gets dyno'd by 034 and it reads even lower then the GIAC dyno since it is setup to read like a dynodynamic, that is the dyno I put down 556whp with my A4.

Funny thing is that there is a A4 owner(Modified) that has dyno #'s from EPL and AWE on his along with CAPS times ran right after running on each dyno, EPL #'s were higher but yet had a much slower CAPS time.

Here is his sig

6.27 sec CAPS: 195 WHP , 186WT @AWE, 60F 10/07/06
6.40 sec CAPS: 220 WHP , 230WT @EPL, 64F 5/13/06

Real funny part is that we all know that a 1.8t with a K04 on pump gas with a normal GIAC chip doesn't make 220whp.

Paul O'Neals 997 GT3 did 378 whp on EPL's dyno. AWE's 997 GT3 did 385 whp on their dyno (both cars stock). I'd post links but AW's archives seem to be down right now.

The differences in Modified A4's numbers couldn't be explained by temp differences (meaning cooling fans, and temp in the dyno room) or the gear the car was dynoed? I'm not sure how it works with A4's but I know EPL dyno's S4's in 3rd while AWE dyno's in 4th. That means the dyno pull is much longer at AWE, increasing IAT's and decreasing peak hp numbers. Additionally, I've been in AWE's dyno room and I've been in EPL's dyno room. EPL has more fans and the room itself is much larger. EPL's dyno room tends to be equal to the outside temp whereas AWE's dyno room was noticably hotter than the outside temp. All these factors matter and can easily contribute to higher readings on one dyno compared to another.

So again, it's not that easy to say which dyno reads higher and which is "more accurate".

I agree with Marc in that the dyno numbers are simply numbers. They should be used only for tuning purposes and general (rough) comparisons. The only way to truely compare the numbers is at a dyno day, since all the cars are dynoing on the same dyno on the same day.

[Dr. Jekyll]

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2748402

Wow, without ever reading or hearing about that post prior to today, I knew what it would be about. Like I said, two sides to every story. And being in the custom tuning business, that's what happens to people like Tony. They get blamed for stuff that could very well have been the owners fault. Not to mention the guy/kid even stated he could not/would not pay his bill.... To blame that squarely on EPL would be very unfair. While EPL may not totally be blameless (The only facts I know are what's posted in that thread) they are definitely not entirely to blame. Therefore, that post shows nothing except for the fact that someone had an issue with EPL (although their issue maybe completely misplaced).

[Devious27t]

Running alcohol injection is very similar to running race gas. I trapped 121mph with pump gas, anything faster was on race gas.

I was simply replying to the quote, FWIW we have picked up 3mph running open dumps vs full exhaust (depending on the setup of course). He said he hasnt heard of anyone running 11's on a PUMP gas file. I was giving him an example... I know very well how meth injection works but I was replying within the context of the quote i replied to.

[Devious27t]

Eh, if that's the case, im ok with it. Id buy another set tomorrow if i had to. Im not one of these whiney audi owners, looking to cut corners to save a few dollars. I bought an audi, decided to mod it, it's obviously going to be costly. Hell, ill be almost $4000 into a tranny and tranny parts within a month. I will have a spare one sitting around though

good man. pay to play

[Devious27t]

Just compare #'s from AWE and EPL, even then the EPL mustang dyno reads much higher then the AWE which is also setup to read like a dynojet which is slightly higher then the mustang at GIAC. Then there is the mustang at GST in norcal where my car gets dyno'd by 034 and it reads even lower then the GIAC dyno since it is setup to read like a dynodynamic, that is the dyno I put down 556whp with my A4.

Funny thing is that there is a A4 owner(Modified) that has dyno #'s from EPL and AWE on his along with CAPS times ran right after running on each dyno, EPL #'s were higher but yet had a much slower CAPS time.

Here is his sig

6.27 sec CAPS: 195 WHP , 186WT @AWE, 60F 10/07/06
6.40 sec CAPS: 220 WHP , 230WT @EPL, 64F 5/13/06

Real funny part is that we all know that a 1.8t with a K04 on pump gas with a normal GIAC chip doesn't make 220whp.

FYI Mike our dyno was recently recal'd and is very close to the PROPERLY CALIBRATED DD machines now (there are even happy DD machines).

[10SecS4]

Hey Devious, any chance you can get on AIM tonight? I need to talk to you about something. Thanks man.

[BlackS4TT(Josh)]

Running alcohol injection is very similar to running race gas. I trapped 121mph with pump gas, anything faster was on race gas.

Were you injecting straight alcohol? I use a 50/50 mix with water.

Why do you say its similar to running race gas? I still gain atleast 4mph in my trap speed when i use race gas.

[Devious27t]

Were you injecting straight alcohol? I use a 50/50 mix with water.

Why do you say its similar to running race gas? I still gain atleast 4mph in my trap speed when i use race gas.

because it plays into his argument to do so at this point in time

[10SecS4]

because it plays into his argument to do so at this point in time

Thanks for taking care of me today. You the man.

[mike-2ptzero]

Were you injecting straight alcohol? I use a 50/50 mix with water.

Why do you say its similar to running race gas? I still gain atleast 4mph in my trap speed when i use race gas.

Plenty of people have used WI to run on 100-105 octane race programs while using pump gas.


When you say you gained 4mph when using race gas does that also include using the WI or are you comparing the same tune using WI/pump vs straight race gas?

[10SecS4]

Plenty of people have used WI to run on 100-105 octane race programs while using pump gas.

With an S4 people did that? Who? I know Mark P tested it on EPL's dyno and saw no gains other than better consistency from run to run due to less heat soak and possibly lower IATs.

[audikp]

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2748402

I remember asking Tony about this...

Tony recommended the kid put a new a green top coolant temp sensor in the car...he did and it solved his problems...and he paid his bill in full. Then he wrecked his car and called EPL to have them tune his new car.

If he was really that upset w/ EPL's customer service, I don't think he would come back for more work and a tune for his new car... Or even paid his bill...

Seems to me like he's happy with EPL and the services they offer.

[mike-2ptzero]

With an S4 people did that? Who? I know Mark P tested it on EPL's dyno and saw no gains other than better consistency from run to run due to less heat soak and possibly lower IATs.

B5 and B6 owners, but most of them are running a fmic.

[lil' is 300]

I remember asking Tony about this...

Tony recommended the kid put a new a green top coolant temp sensor in the car...he did and it solved his problems...and he paid his bill in full. Then he wrecked his car and called EPL to have them tune his new car.

If he was really that upset w/ EPL's customer service, I don't think he would come back for more work and a tune for his new car... Or even paid his bill...

Seems to me like he's happy with EPL and the services they offer.

Seems like I didn't get both sides of the story...

[NYCVR6]

Were you injecting straight alcohol? I use a 50/50 mix with water.

Why do you say its similar to running race gas? I still gain atleast 4mph in my trap speed when i use race gas.

I dont run alky inj. Why is it similar? because it's purpose it to minimize detonation, to allow more boost and or timing to be run. The same purpose running high octane race fuel has. From the educated estimates ive heard in my life, running meth injection can be as effective as 110+ octane.

I only gain 2-3 mph max when i switch to race gas.

[NYCVR6]

because it plays into his argument to do so at this point in time

I have no argument, and i could really care less. But if you want to go into a debate about how one is more effective than the other at suppressing detonation on the 2.7 motor, ill be here.

[Tony@EPL]

With an S4 people did that? Who? I know Mark P tested it on EPL's dyno and saw no gains other than better consistency from run to run due to less heat soak and possibly lower IATs.

This is true, we have yet to see any significant gains from WI, however consitancy and repeatability improve considerably.

[audikp]

I remember asking Tony about this...

Tony recommended the kid put a new a green top coolant temp sensor in the car...he did and it solved his problems...and he paid his bill in full. Then he wrecked his car and called EPL to have them tune his new car.

If he was really that upset w/ EPL's customer service, I don't think he would come back for more work and a tune for his new car... Or even paid his bill...

Seems to me like he's happy with EPL and the services they offer.

Seems like I didn't get both sides of the story...

Unfortunately it seems to happen all to often on forums where only one side of the story is discussed or made public, and when issues are resolved, those who were upset or complained don't bother to go back and post the fact the issue was resolved or that there really was a misunderstanding.

[FrimmelNoJerz]

hey i have a question about these rs6 turbos: when do they hit full boost and is there any lag?

[DAP]

hey i have a question about these rs6 turbos: when do they hit full boost and is there any lag?

My car hits full boost (~27psi) at 3800 RPM. Its about 500 RPM later than my former RS4 K04s hit peak boost.

[Devious27t]

hey i have a question about these rs6 turbos: when do they hit full boost and is there any lag?

we were making ~31 psi by 3800 on some of the race gas runs.

[FrimmelNoJerz]

when do they run out of steam.

[lil' is 300]

I doubt these will run out of steam at our redline (7100rpm chipped software). It wouldn't surprise me if these held 2 bar from 3800-redline. How well they will do with built heads with stiffer springs and titanium retainers at 8000~ rpm...who knows, but not many people will do this or need to with K04 based turbos...usually only GT's (28RS >) since they really shine there (read: F'n HUGE).

Thought I'd add another note. GT28RS's start to make the most power at 4800-5000, and if the redline is set at 7100 that's only a mere 2000 rpm powerband with full spool and power which increases by RPM with these turbos since they just flow and flow. Not sure how much power they're making at 3800 rpms, but if RS6's are making 2 bar by then, the powerband will be muuuuuch better so I really don't think you need a ridiculously high redline to enjoy them like GT's.

[Jung]

Here's EPL's S4 running RS6 turbos... keeps up with the Rari pretty well for a full interior car... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dOtdGX9sPM

[lil' is 300]

Here's EPL's S4 running RS6 turbos... keeps up with the Rari pretty well for a full interior car... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dOtdGX9sPM

No one really knows how much HP DAP's car is making... if it was actually making a real "500 whp" aka not EPL's dyno, I think the results would have been different.

[generationjdm]

GT2560r spool at 38-3900 and will make power to 8k+ the gt28rs or the 2871ss r the real large ones that spool in the mid fours not the 2560ss and the gt2554ss will spool even sooner then 3800.. Theres always a trade off with any setup you run its very hard to have the best of both worlds ie rs4/ko4 spool but have rs6 or gt power, thats not realistic