FlyboyS4 shifting gears: TiAL 605 -> FrankenTurbo F4H

[FlyboyS4]

[Edit: Part way through this build VAST bagged out on me and I am now being supported by EPL]

I decided that while I enjoyed the TiAL 605 setup I thought I might find a better match to my driving style with the FrankenTurbo's.

The TiAL 605 kit is off my car, sold, and shipped. The F4H's are in place and in the process of doing the tuning. My hardware remains pretty similar to what I used with the 605's. Parts as follow:


VAST 90mm 1-piece intake (replacing stock filter/EPL 85mm MAF housing/RS4 accordion)
RS4 Y-pipe
TiAL inlets
FrankenTurbo F4H's w/ K03 wastegates (replacing TiAL 605's)
ER IC's
APR Bipipe
Later model intake manifold
034 phenolic spacers
60lb Bosch EV14's (replacing 72lb EV14's)
MBC+N75 (replacing straight N75)
VAST p/p exhaust manifolds
ASP 3" downpipes
034 3.5" single exhaust (replacing Milltek 2.25" Superdual)
VAST tuned ECU (replacing EPL tuned ECU)

Still very early in the tuning process. I'm liking the faster boost onset of the FT's, though I don't see much difference from my old APR Stg3 K04's. Can't say much about the top end since the boost is still something that needs to be ironed out.

More to follow as tuning progresses....


http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/turbo_swap.jpg

[Rated S]

http://www.imglols.com/wp-content/main/2010_12/Dog-Not-Sure.jpg

[AMC]

what kevin said, are u joking? from a solid turbo setup to china turbos... oh boy go see a doctor

[PearlS4]

Wow, one step forward, two steps back

[seanj130]

what kevin said, are u joking? from a solid turbo setup to china turbos... oh boy go see a doctor

??? I thought all turbos were made in China...

[hellrot98m3]

if you still have the 72lbers ill take them

[DiscoPotato]

Is this real life?

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/7/2010/06/340x_txqiwrbygrs.jpg

[Turbo1A4]

..........what

[ThirdStrike]

that 605 doesnt look like its been used. o_0



...but if you are tracking your car I can see how you'd want a smaller turbo... I guess...

[Bimmerchop]

http://forum.E46Fanatics.com/images/smilies/confused1.gif

[tosh2.7]

not everyone likes going in a straight line. If road racing is his goal then having the faster spooling f4h make way more sense to have. Instead of hoping you can keep in the powerband through a tight corner.

[gearhead1186]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzYRvaD-xkQ

[Angular]

what kevin said, are u joking? from a solid turbo setup to china turbos... oh boy go see a doctor

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1187/1277149979_831c0b4604.jpg

But seriously... I thought only the turbine housing castings were made in China on the FTs, no?

If the guy really wants faster spool instead of max HP potential, I don't have a big problem with this "downgrade".

[1sadavant]

Good Luck and I certainly look forward to hearing your experiences!

[Don Supreme]

So many haters....

[slappy_dunbar]

I gotta do it too. I'm a 40-foot tall Judas and I just have to pile on:
http://d.imagehost.org/0464/saywhatwhitney.gif

[seeya]

very interested to see the results/impressions...

[RedB5S4]

You sir, have some serious balls to go from TiALs to FrankenTurbos. I like it.

[DonnieDark0]

hey op, what are your goals / reasons for this?

[CaptainMorganS4]

So many haters....

agreed... if he went with tial's in the first place then he probably know's why he wants the frankenturbo's. no need to bash a fellow enthusiast.

[grassman]

I only lurk here but I'm going with FrankenTurbo's and ditching my ko4s. Due to engine issues I'm pulling my motor and giving these a try. I'm going to run my epl stg 3 fueling and then custom tune. I've heard more than once about wastegate issues. Can anyone chime in?

[RusS4]

I know you guys automatically think its crazy but like Jeff said its what caters towards his driving style. Jeff's a smart guy and I respect his decision; and I belive he has some plans in mind with the money that's been saved for the car in the picture.

[Don Supreme]

I only lurk here but I'm going with FrankenTurbo's and ditching my ko4s. Due to engine issues I'm pulling my motor and giving these a try. I'm going to run my epl stg 3 fueling and then custom tune. I've heard more than once about wastegate issues. Can anyone chime in?

What wastegate issues have you heard about?

[tosh2.7]

^^+2. yea seriously, what have you heard[confused]

[grassman]

I know Wicked Motorsports has modified wastegates on Ft car. Other than that someone involved with a vendor out east mentioned swaping in ko4 wastegates because FT's were junk. So take it with a grain of salt. I haven't recieved mine from Vast yet so I have nothing to add. Anyone else?

[sandspeed]

I've heard about the wastegate issues with the RP K04s, or whatever the old chinese knockoffs were that failed repeatedly. But I've never seen anything about Frankenturbo wastegates failing. Anyone have links?

[grassman]

When RP's failed everyone screamed about it. I've haven't heard anything about FT problems outside of some install issues leading to failure, which applies to all turbo's. There was a post on here a couple of weeks back about someone doing a stg 3 build and having their wategates reworked by Wicked. He never responced to as why.

[Raacerx]

went through the whole annoying process of swapping turbos, for a couple hundred rpm better spool and less power? I join the rest of folks who are confused. Why all the work just for that? Seems a piece of the puzzle is missing.

[ThirdStrike]

It has to be for quicker apexing

[slappy_dunbar]

Mike at Wicked has all the contact info he needs if he encounters a problem. Since my phone isn't ringing I'm going to guess he wanted a preload higher than possible on the turbos he had. Tials run 14psi crack pressure, for example. The crack pressure specified by (forum sponsor) VAST is lower than that.

[Angular]

went through the whole annoying process of swapping turbos, for a couple hundred rpm better spool and less power? I join the rest of folks who are confused. Why all the work just for that? Seems a piece of the puzzle is missing.

I'm giving the guy the benefit of the doubt. Boost logs are one thing but dynamic response is another. I've seen a video or two and been told by a reliable source that 605 cars can often get the initial jump on a 770 car even though "on paper" the boost response curves look similar. The bigger turbo takes longer to spool, even though if you put it in a high gear and stand on the pedal it makes pretty good boost at, say, 3000 RPM.

[bigern45]

i have only been in my RS6 car, and my APR tuned k03 car.. spool is different, but even in those two completely different categories, not enough to justify losing 60whp for some quicker spool. i was driving my car today, and just thought about spool time, and the balance and what is needed in traffic acceleration. i wot shifted at 3000 rpms everytime, and was so far in front of the rest of traffic it was stupid. now if tracking the car and spool time needed is more application specific, i cant argue or discuss about that.

to each his own.

[bigern45]

I'm giving the guy the benefit of the doubt. Boost logs are one thing but dynamic response is another. I've seen a video or two and been told by a reliable source that 605 cars can often get the initial jump on a 770 car even though "on paper" the boost response curves look similar. The bigger turbo takes longer to spool, even though if you put it in a high gear and stand on the pedal it makes pretty good boost at, say, 3000 RPM.
of course they get the jump, but on top end there is no comparison. just like my RS6's.. im sure id get a good jump on a lot of 605 cars, but the top end the 605's will get me. will it affect the outcome of a race?? not sure.. i still havent raced a 605 car.. (which i would love to do. pm me if close and would like to run in mexico)

[Burningcoals]

I would like to see a dyno done after you finish; to compare the two. Please use same dyno :P

[jibberjive]

Not sure I follow.

[jordon]

wow! now THIS is an interesting thread!

[rspring]

Interesting, subscribed..

[spokismB5S4]

what kevin said, are u joking? from a solid turbo setup to china turbos... oh boy go see a doctor

So yeah you must not know much about frankenturbos... They have been more reliable so far than bw's it seems. Which are also china turbos now.

But yeah i dont get why he did that either. Not cuz they are chineese tho...

[spokismB5S4]

I only lurk here but I'm going with FrankenTurbo's and ditching my ko4s. Due to engine issues I'm pulling my motor and giving these a try. I'm going to run my epl stg 3 fueling and then custom tune. I've heard more than once about wastegate issues. Can anyone chime in?

If you dont know what happened and why then Dont spread rumors.

[jibberjive]

So yeah you must not know much about frankenturbos... They have been more reliable so far than bw's it seems. Which are also china turbos now.

But yeah i dont get why he did that either. Not cuz they are chineese tho...

Frankenturbos have been out for the B5 S4 like a year or less. In no way have they proven anything one way or the other vs BW's, which have thousands of turbos running on cars for 10+ years. I hope they prove to be as reliable as they are good in the performance realm, but that comes with time.

[AudiSportB5S4]

I know Wicked Motorsports has modified wastegates on Ft car. Other than that someone involved with a vendor out east mentioned swaping in ko4 wastegates because FT's were junk. So take it with a grain of salt. I haven't recieved mine from Vast yet so I have nothing to add. Anyone else?

The problem was that some sets that were bought straight through FT and not through VAST, who then inspects each turbo and clocks the wastegates and then tests them to make sure they open at the same cracking pressure risk problems. Mike makes sure he checks each one that goes out the door. I don't know what happened @ WMS, but I'd assume it's along these lines. You can clock the wastegates yourself or check the cracking pressure prior to install, but that's just something VAST does before they leave.


They have been more reliable so far than bw's it seems.

Lol, how can you even type that and mean it? I have 42 thousand miles on my K04s, no one has come close to that to say on FTs. Also, how many BW K04s are out there to FTs right now would make you retract your statement. Most people with proper maintenance have no problem seeing 100k+ on K04s as just like K03s despite the general forum attitude, have been proven for way longer than any of these other turbo setups. Besides horsepower differences, you can't begin to compare reliability versus K03s or K04s on this engine.

Anyway, I can see why you'd do the change if you road race the car and spool matters. Not everyone cares about peak HP, because in racing area under the curve matters more. Look at the FT dyno I posted up a while ago.. That setup is going to be better than 605s for a track that has turns in it.

[AUDI_S4_ATL]

[QUOTE=spokismB5S4;6517458]So yeah you must not know much about frankenturbos... They have been more reliable so far than bw's it seems. Which are also china turbos now.

I can't comment on the quality of FTs because I have no experience with them but this quote made me LOL because if you replace "frankenturbos" with "RP turbos"
its the same kind of comments that people were making about those turbochargers.

[grassman]

Read
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/427187-my-cars-is-at-wicked-getting-franken-turbos

I'm not here to spread rumors ( I have FTs ). I just want to hear why people don't like these wastegates. OP has changed his FTs to k03 wastegates. Before I do my install I want everyones thoughts. I know there's RP paranoia with any new turbo but I guessing it's just that.

[spokismB5S4]

The problem was that some sets that were bought straight through FT and not through VAST, who then inspects each turbo and clocks the wastegates and then tests them to make sure they open at the same cracking pressure risk problems. Mike makes sure he checks each one that goes out the door. I don't know what happened @ WMS, but I'd assume it's along these lines. You can clock the wastegates yourself or check the cracking pressure prior to install, but that's just something VAST does before they leave.



Lol, how can you even type that and mean it? I have 42 thousand miles on my K04s, no one has come close to that to say on FTs. Also, how many BW K04s are out there to FTs right now would make you retract your statement. Most people with proper maintenance have no problem seeing 100k+ on K04s as just like K03s despite the general forum attitude, have been proven for way longer than any of these other turbo setups. Besides horsepower differences, you can't begin to compare reliability versus K03s or K04s on this engine.

Anyway, I can see why you'd do the change if you road race the car and spool matters. Not everyone cares about peak HP, because in racing area under the curve matters more. Look at the FT dyno I posted up a while ago.. That setup is going to be better than 605s for a track that has turns in it.

Im sorry dude but your acting like all k04's get there. From what i have seen thats pretty rare. But i am talking about those instant failures. Obvioulsy im not talking about reliability over the long haul because they have only been out for a year. Look at the amount of k04s that have failed within the first 1000 miles. I have heard of not one set of ft's doing that. Doug recently said that he has only had one warranty claim on them and that was because the oil lines were installed backwards, and he still honored the warranty!! Ive heard of many sets of bw k04's blowing very very quickly. Same with the 1.8 guys. They have had them for a couple years now and i havnt come across a failure yet.

[jordon]

Im sorry dude but your acting like all k04's get there. From what i have seen thats pretty rare. But i am talking about those instant failures. Obvioulsy im not talking about reliability over the long haul because they have only been out for a year. Look at the amount of k04s that have failed within the first 1000 miles. I have heard of not one set of ft's doing that. Doug recently said that he has only had one warranty claim on them and that was because the oil lines were installed backwards, and he still honored the warranty!! Ive heard of many sets of bw k04's blowing very very quickly. Same with the 1.8 guys. They have had them for a couple years now and i havnt come across a failure yet.

Wow- are you SURE you're not talking about RP K04s? Because I have never heard of a properly installed Borg Warner blowing right away (not to say it has never happened, but I am not aware of one). Also consider that maybe a couple dozen S4s are running FTs and maybe a couple thousand are running K04s. Not hating on FT either, I almost intalled one my 1.8T, but then sold the car, and I also intend to go with FTs on my S4, but being realistic, it is WAY premature to say they are "more reliable than bw K04s". I think Doug would agree. Only many miles on many cars can determine reliability.

[AudiSportB5S4]

Lol, turbos from BW that fail in <1000 miles are done by garage mechanics who make a mistake. BW is not new at manufacturing turbos. You can believe what you'd like, but the amount of BW turbos that blow so early in their lifespan is 9/10 times an installation error, not manufacturing defect.

Carry on..

[RedB5S4]

While comparisons can't really be made on the reliability of FrankenTurbos vs. BW K04s yet, I think that Spokism does have a point. The 1.8t guys have been running FTs for a few years now without consistent problems. I realize that those are completely different platforms and applications from those of the 2.7t, but it's pretty obvious that the FTs are well built turbos. I haven't heard of any problems with FT applications on S4s, mainly because no one has been running them for long enough, but I think it's pretty fair to say that similar reliability will be seen out of them when compared to the K04s, just as the performance of each turbo has been seen until now.

[DiscoPotato]

Lol, turbos from BW that fail in <1000 miles are done by garage mechanics who make a mistake. BW is not new at manufacturing turbos. You can believe what you'd like, but the amount of BW turbos that blow so early in their lifespan is 9/10 times an installation error, not manufacturing defect.

Carry on..

This

[slappy_dunbar]

The BorgWarner K03/K04 design is bombproof. It's the gold standard without a doubt. And while I do hear from dealers here and there that they "blow really quickly" I would never attribute those instances to poor quality or inferior design. Those are just isolated incidents which arose due to undetermined factors. The fact is, hundreds of thousands of these things have been installed as OEM parts all over the globe. So obviously they have a fantastically low defect rate and their service life is excellent.

Anyway, if you guys are really that curious to know what's going on with this big "actuator question", I'll just call Wicked and find out. But bear in mind that these turbos are checked here and rechecked again by (forum sponsor) VAST. The actuators are a spec that's unique to these turbos. This is how they can be set up at 11psi and still run properly.

[ThirdStrike]

I know a couple people running 50k+miles on bw k04's .. not sure why anyone would question their reliability. :smh:

[Rated S]

Im sorry dude but your acting like all k04's get there. From what i have seen thats pretty rare. But i am talking about those instant failures. Obvioulsy im not talking about reliability over the long haul because they have only been out for a year. Look at the amount of k04s that have failed within the first 1000 miles. I have heard of not one set of ft's doing that. Doug recently said that he has only had one warranty claim on them and that was because the oil lines were installed backwards, and he still honored the warranty!! Ive heard of many sets of bw k04's blowing very very quickly. Same with the 1.8 guys. They have had them for a couple years now and i havnt come across a failure yet.

I've put 35k on my K04s, 20k with them on 25psi. That must be some pretty shitty quality control.

[wan2play]

Frankenturbos have been out for the B5 S4 like a year or less. In no way have they proven anything one way or the other vs BW's, which have thousands of turbos running on cars for 10+ years. I hope they prove to be as reliable as they are good in the performance realm, but that comes with time.

I completely agree with you....Same shit was being said about the RPs....Do I have to remind you about the final outcome of those turbos???


I was wondering, what is your style of driving?

[S4James]

40,000 miles on my k04/rs6 hybrids. Good oil, not much abuse, and one inspection/re-ringing of one turbo at 20K or so.

And they were used turbos in the first place. I have no idea where the rs6 peices came from but they were 100% not new parts. So who knows how much mileage is actually on the chra's.

[FlyboyS4]

hey op, what are your goals / reasons for this?

A little background first. I've had this S4 for close to 11 years and taken it from stock, chipped with APR & GIAC, custom tuned APR Stg3 K04, EPL/TiAL 605 kit, and now the VAST fueling kit w/ FrankenTurbo's. It's a DD that has been to the track three times, the most recent about 4 years ago.

It became to clear to me after driving with the 605's most of last year that I prefer the car to be slightly more responsive than what I was finding the 605's to make it. With most of my driving being urban commuting I'm in the 2-3k rpm range so I find myself in a higher gear more often than not. When I decide I want to dart somewhere with the car, often the time it takes to downshift loses the opportunity, at least more so than with K04 type response. I'd have probaly stuck with the 605's if going back to a normal K04 setup was the only realistic alternative, but the FrankenTurbo's offer a very enticing mix of responsiveness and power. I also came to the conclusion that the amount of power I was getting from the 605's wasn't valuable enough when weighed against a quicker spooling alternative with very good power.

For my car without a top-end WI system I see a significant penalty when it get's hot out even with ER IC's. I didn't have the car tuned for methanol with the 605's, and I would have had to pull my current 2D system and install the HFS-3 to do so. I declined to pay for another WI system right now. The 605's performance degrades much more in warm weather than my old APR K04 setup.

Finally, I bought the 605's because I was able to sell my APR Stg3 kit for the cost of the 605 kit. There were incidental expenses, but it was an opportunity to try out a kit for "no cost". I took the 605's to the end of tuning, evaluated the results and decided I'd like to try the FrankenTurbo's. The fact that I could once again sell a kit, the 605's in this case, and use the proceeds to pay for the next kit, the VAST/FT setup, made the decision easy.

The 605's were a very nice turbo setup and in some situations I really liked them, but for the time being I believe the FrankenTurbo's will be a better fit. This is very much a matter of personal preference for how the vehicle behaves with the different setups.

My goal is to see the FrankenTurbo's match or exceed the performance I got from the 605's in the summer, and fall in between the 605's and BWK04's in cooler weather.

[julex]

Seriosuly... this has been stated time and time over...

Smaller turbo will only generate more heat and deliver less GRAMS of air to the engine due to gas expansion. Even dunbar will not argue that his FTs are better than 605s, completely different league.

I hope it turns out more satisfying to you since city traffic actually demands more boost onset at low RPMs but maybe what you should be really looking for is 3L block or seomtihng like 3L block with 10:1 compression. Now that with 605s would knock the socks off anything in the city/street.

[jibberjive]

I was wondering, what is your style of driving?
Me? I don't have K04's nor FT's, but I usually drive relatively casually around town, but I have my occasional pulls or spirited canyon run.

[DonnieDark0]

Thank you for your response FLYBOYs4, i appreciate it. goodluck with it and hopefully it all works out. You obviously got a good handle on things so......thumbs up dude!!!

[AMC]

So yeah you must not know much about frankenturbos... They have been more reliable so far than bw's it seems. Which are also china turbos now.

But yeah i dont get why he did that either. Not cuz they are chineese tho...

i know about the turbos, whats with u nutswinging frankens?


If you dont know what happened and why then Dont spread rumors.

again trying to back the franken turbos as they are gods gift to man kind.. he was asking a question about the turbos cause he wanted to go that route


Im sorry dude but your acting like all k04's get there. From what i have seen thats pretty rare. But i am talking about those instant failures. Obvioulsy im not talking about reliability over the long haul because they have only been out for a year. Look at the amount of k04s that have failed within the first 1000 miles. I have heard of not one set of ft's doing that. Doug recently said that he has only had one warranty claim on them and that was because the oil lines were installed backwards, and he still honored the warranty!! Ive heard of many sets of bw k04's blowing very very quickly. Same with the 1.8 guys. They have had them for a couple years now and i havnt come across a failure yet.

my bwk04s have 60k miles of hardcore abuse still pulling strong (must be the witchcraft tho cause they should have blown since they are BW and not frankens..) also not everyone is on the forums, FTs have failed believe it or not! just cause whoever dave is (ft head hancho?.) says so doesnt mean hes telling you the truth...food for thought. keep onn swinging those nuts bye buddy

[S4James]

pulling out a perfectly good 605 to try out the FTs well that takes some balls I guess. If all he wants is low end torque then I suppose its a good choice. But this bussiness of hot weather affecting the 605s more is a bunch of bunk. sounds like a tuning issue, not a turbo issues. k04s will make more heat at the same levels of boost, no ifs ands or buts about it.

[S4UCE]

grumble grumble

Boy I hope you don't give me this much shit when my FTs go on! You are a hard man to please. (Every pun imaginable intended.)


Flyboy, good luck in your... swap.

[Kes Twin Turbo]

Enjoyed reading the OPs take on all the different turbo setups. Only thing I can say is that maybe next investment would be the 3L bottom end upgade to make more low end power and maximize the low rpm spooling. Not sure if you already did 2.8 head and cams but the cams may also improve your entire powerband.

Be awesome to see dyno comparisons of all your setups tho.

[VAST]

Look forward to tuning the car, you'll be happy..

Here are some graphs of boost and acceleration.. Lots of low end push with this setup even running them conservatively and not with too much boost. It runs off the MAP sensor for a little bit while it touches 23 or so PSI then tapers back down as you can see.

http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp352/AudiSportB5S4/ECUx%20Logs/FT-Boost.jpg

http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp352/AudiSportB5S4/ECUx%20Logs/accel.jpg

[Marioh]

http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp352/AudiSportB5S4/ECUx%20Logs/FT-Boost.jpg

SOLD.

[BENI_BOY]

Boy I hope you don't give me this much shit when my FTs go on! You are a hard man to please. (Every pun imaginable intended.)


Flyboy, good luck in your... swap.

lol dont worry s4uce i dont hate the turbos i just found it stupid how be backed them so much. all turbos fail when u push them like we do, their always out of the efficiency range. and mr saucy i like you lol..

i dont hate the turbos btw guys if i was going to do stage 3 now and didnt have hte money to blow on k04s (at the price they are now) i would honestly do the FTs just dont think they are golden little turd nuggets where they out operform bw in longivity. im sure they will hold up right with the proper wg and install.

[TweetsS4Estate]

I love my 3.0L on 605s on the base file and wastegate pressure (20psi) it was pulling 3.0x fats pretty consistently. O.P. ... You won't see 605 power, but maybe with all of this new N20 interest you could get that top end power back!

[FlyboyS4]

O.P. ... You won't see 605 power

I specifically said the power I was seeing with the 605's on my car in the summer. I think that is a reachable goal.

[spokismB5S4]

Lol @ you. Nut swinging... Posting one post about my parts is not nutswinging.

edit : sorry 2, considered them one.

[buddysnack]

Some Catholics convert to Buddhism. Same diff...neither religion is better, it just depends on what you want/believe. I have FT and am married to a ex-Catholic BTW.

[Don Supreme]

I love my 3.0L on 605s on the base file and wastegate pressure (20psi) it was pulling 3.0x fats pretty consistently. O.P. ... You won't see 605 power, but maybe with all of this new N20 interest you could get that top end power back!

I have run several 3.0x FATS on my franken setup, more boost than 20 psi... but still, not super hard to do.

[TweetsS4Estate]

The point was the turbos weren't even trying, I'm on wastegate on a break-in file and I bet it's still faster than frankens working hard. His problem wasnt heat from turbos it was poor cooling. Either way frankens flow less than 605s. They won't make the same or more power.

I have run several 3.0x FATS on my franken setup, more boost than 20 psi... but still, not super hard to do.

[TweetsS4Estate]

Heres my car at 24 spike 23 held 93 and 50/50 meth on VAST with #5 nozzels show me a franken car that does better than this, especially with the amount of timing ran.
http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt50/02Avantimola/605v626psispiketaperto24psi10092mix_17929_image002-2.gif?t=1305833017
http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt50/02Avantimola/605v626psispiketaperto24psi10092mix_17929_image006-2.gif?t=1305833017
http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt50/02Avantimola/605v626psispiketaperto24psi10092mix_17929_image012-2.gif?t=1305833137
I'm sorry for jacking for that moment in time, either way you will have a lot of fun with the FT's

[Don Supreme]

I don't think anyone here thinks that FTs have greater flow potential than 605s....

[AudiSportB5S4]

Holy crap! Reid, the debate isn't there for power potential.... That's like telling a guy who likes snappy K03s that he can make more power on GT2871s. Duh!

What he wants to see is what I posted. Look at YOUR boost at 3K, and look at FT boost at 3K. Look at YOUR acceleration at 3K, and look at his. The guy wants around town low end grunt. You can say your car has it all day long, but that graph is enough evidence that one is hitting 6PSI, and FTs are at nearly full boost. Also evidence that while you are experiencing .25G, he is seeing .40G.

[:)]

[TweetsS4Estate]

I don't think anyone here thinks that FTs have greater flow potential than 605s....
I was just showing that 605s can make a potent mix with a 3.0L. And I was saying I don't agree with the idea that putting FTs on a car will heat soak less.. or make similar power in the summer as 605s because of heat/flow/whatever issues there are. Supreame, you also were alluding to 605s on 20psi, not impressing you, or out performing FTs, I posted those logs to help you compare the two.

It was rude of me to thread jack like this, I apologize flyboy, and I'm excited for everything that's coming for you and that you have the gumption to find the setup that truly suits you.

[TweetsS4Estate]

Holy crap! Reid, the debate isn't there for power potential.... That's like telling a guy who likes snappy K03s that he can make more power on GT2871s. Duh!

What he wants to see is what I posted. Look at YOUR boost at 3K, and look at FT boost at 3K. Look at YOUR acceleration at 3K, and look at his. The guy wants around town low end grunt. You can say your car has it all day long, but that graph is enough evidence that one is hitting 6PSI, and FTs are at nearly full boost. Also evidence that while you are experiencing .25G, he is seeing .40G.

[:)]

I know, I jumped on the wrong thing. I'm having to tear down my 3.0L again too because the guy who built it (not vast so no rumors) put the rods in backwards, and I think I washed out the rings as well near or right after the break-in file... Those frankens spool like a mofo.. they really do. Sorry again boys. Good luck Flyboy.

[RusS4]

I know, I jumped on the wrong thing. I'm having to tear down my 3.0L again too because the guy who built it (not vast so no rumors) put the rods in backwards, and I think I washed out the rings as well near or right after the break-in file... Those frankens spool like a mofo.. they really do. Sorry again boys. Good luck Flyboy.

Dude you really can stop comparing 605's on a 3.0L to the Frankens. Jeff knows what he wants and it wasnt spending another 3k on building a 3.0L. If you look at my post you will see that I said he might put the money he saved into something else. I am pretty certain he know what he's wants going from the 605's(that made as much power as you can really put to the stock motor) the the Frankens.

[TweetsS4Estate]

Dude you really can stop comparing 605's on a 3.0L to the Frankens. Jeff knows what he wants and it wasnt spending another 3k on building a 3.0L. If you look at my post you will see that I said he might put the money he saved into something else. I am pretty certain he know what he's wants going from the 605's(that made as much power as you can really put to the stock motor) the the Frankens.

pretty sure I said I was in the wrong and apologized Rus.. not sure why this is necessary. also I don't want to stink this thread up more than I already have (willing to delete my stuff flyboy, if you like), so I'd rather us not argue about this after I've said I'm sorry.

[spokismB5S4]

ft push no where near as much air as 605's

[TweetsS4Estate]

ft push no where near as much air as 605's

yeah, I just got done saying that, but its not the point for him.. he just wants something that feels more like a big block N/A car than something that is a highway screamer..

[MMMB00ST_A4]

Holy crap! Reid, the debate isn't there for power potential.... That's like telling a guy who likes snappy K03s that he can make more power on GT2871s. Duh!

What he wants to see is what I posted. Look at YOUR boost at 3K, and look at FT boost at 3K. Look at YOUR acceleration at 3K, and look at his. The guy wants around town low end grunt. You can say your car has it all day long, but that graph is enough evidence that one is hitting 6PSI, and FTs are at nearly full boost. Also evidence that while you are experiencing .25G, he is seeing .40G.

[:)]

This. No need for further discussion.

/Thread

[AudiSportB5S4]

put the rods in backwards, and I think I washed out the rings as well near or right after the break-in file...

STOP IT REALLY?! Lol... I can't type this sentence without it sounding REALLY wrong, but you get that rod out, you should shove it up the builders ass, backwards.

[TweetsS4Estate]

STOP IT REALLY?! Lol... I can't type this sentence without it sounding REALLY wrong, but you get that rod out, you should shove it up the builders ass, backwards.

yeah, he's fixing it for free, and replacing the pistons.. but its just a bummer. I'm hoping I will have something to take to waterfest. BTW OP do you plan on being there?

[FlyboyS4]

ft push no where near as much air as 605's

That needs to be qualified with the rpm point you are describing. On the lower end of the dial the opposite is the case, the FT's are pushing more air into the engine than the 605's.

[TweetsS4Estate]

That needs to be qualified with the rpm point you are describing. On the lower end of the dial the opposite is the case, the FT's are pushing more air into the engine than the 605's.

That is mostly correct, as long as we aren't assuming that psi=cfm. Because from amongst the different turbo sizes cfm/psi varies. E.g. 20 psi on FT<20psi on 605s. As far as air flow goes. I think it's pretty easy to see when the one begins to out flow the other by looking at logs.

[flyingfish2626]

605's at 5250 feet.... a little higher in the RPM range, but way better top end. Not sure why anyone would remove them for Frankens?http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz345/flyingfish2626/Best%20pulls/todayspulls1-3-11graph_9698_image007.png

[jibberjive]

Some Catholics convert to Buddhism. Same diff...neither religion is better, it just depends on what you want/believe. I have FT and am married to a ex-Catholic BTW.

Well, if either Catholic or Buddhism ends up being the correct one (teaches the whole truth), then yes indeed, one is better[;)] (btw, I'm neither Catholic nor Buddhhist)

[FlyboyS4]

Not sure why anyone would remove them for Frankens?

I answered the why question for myself here:

Why I replaced the 605's with F4H's (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/430121-FlyboyS4-shifting-gears-TiAL-605-gt-FrankenTurbo-F4H?p=6520416&viewfull=1#post6520416)

[Don Supreme]

I answered the why question for myself here:

Why I replaced the 605's with F4H's (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/430121-FlyboyS4-shifting-gears-TiAL-605-gt-FrankenTurbo-F4H?p=6520416&viewfull=1#post6520416)

It cracks me up how the 605ers don't even read, they just use this as an opportunity to post their graphs up............ can't race all the time bud.

[RusS4]

^ So Don when am I gonna be able to get my hands on one of those top secret displays?

[TweetsS4Estate]

It cracks me up how the 605ers don't even read, they just use this as an opportunity to post their graphs up............ can't race all the time bud.

Don't hate, you're just jealous that your graphs don't look as good. Racing = life [:p][;)]
Flyboy, when's this all gonna be finished? Are you planning on dynoing it?

[FlyboyS4]

Flyboy, when's this all gonna be finished? Are you planning on dynoing it?

I'm not sure, VAST is very busy now so that slows things down. At the moment I am using the base file but have not established what the final boost level/profile will be. Another complicating matter is the MBC+N75 or straight N75 question. The data I am logging looks unusual to me, for the same boost levels, with the N75 alone the DC is a good bit lower than when the MBC is tied in, the DC also doesn't jump around as much.

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/May2011/Boost_N75.gif

I've also seen instances with the MBC tied in where the DC maxes out at pretty low boost levels, like here where boost is at 21 psi and the N75dc is maxed.

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/May2011/N75B.gif

There's also something odd going on at about 5300. At the very exact same rpm, at least as close as ECUx can log, this step takes places in the N75 dc, and it occurs when the boost is set to different levels. That blue line was done with boost about 2 psi lower than the top three lines. Those top three pulls were done within about 5 minutes of one another with no changes at all to the MBC and steady driving of the car so IAT were consistent.

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/May2011/N75.gif

I haven't used an MBC before tied in with the N75 so I'm unsure about what is going on.

I'll probably not dyno the car. I don't think it would show much as a comparison to the 605's being on different dyno's, unless I wanted to drive all the way to EPL which I'm not putting in two days on the road to get three pulls done on a dyno.

[grassman]

Flyboy thanks for sharing. I have a feeling in the long run these turbos will show some good gains over ko4's, but it's going to take time. I will be running my excisting EPL stg 3 software with hfs-1. I will log my base file and then post my revisions. I am fortunate to be good friends with the local EPL guy so support should be strong. Hopefully by the end of June I can contribute to the advancement of these tunes. Keep up the good work and I will try to follow.

[FlyboyS4]

E.g. 20 psi on FT<20psi on 605s. As far as air flow goes. I think it's pretty easy to see when the one begins to out flow the other by looking at logs.

I would argue that is not the case, that 20 psi (at the manifold), whether a 605 or FT is going to be sending the same amount of air into the engine. The engine is effectively a fixed displacement, 2.7L, notwithstanding VE variation with engine speed. If the temp and pressure in the manifold prior to a cylinder opening is equal, the amount of air that moves into the cylinder will be the same. If you consider engine volume for a period of time, as the engine rpm increases the volume increases, and then the higher airflow of a larger turbo will become apparent as it will maintain the 20 psi of manifold pressure, while the smaller turbo begins to show a pressure drop. So long as IAT and MAP are the same for a 605 and FT, I think the quantity of air entering the engine will be the same. I'm not stating this as fact, just the way it seems to me.

[slappy_dunbar]

I'm going to quickly slam the lid back down on that can o' worms. Because I really don't want to initiate yet another discussion about how a big turbo at 16psi is better than a small one at 22psi.

The complicating factor in your assessment is engine VE. And in the example of a TIAL build vs. something smaller you have to look at the amount of work required to achieve a given charge pressure. If TIALs can muster 25psi charge pressure at a low wastegate duty cycle rate of ~65%, while a smaller turbo requires ~85%, then there will be a differential in airflow through the engine. The less power siphoned by the turbo to move air, the more freely the engine can work.

[FlyboyS4]

Ok, I'd buy that. It is a different explanation than the one that was given to me above. Still though, a bigger turbo enabling a higher VE doesn't change my statement that for a portion of the lower rpm region an F4H sized turbo will move more air into the engine than a 605.

[AAAA]

Jeff,
I didn't know you were running mbc and n75 in parallel. I thought you were solely on mbc. Are you sure you have the parallel routed correctly?

[FlyboyS4]

At this point there isn't anything from the MBC setup left on my car to go out and check so unfortunately I can't do a visual verification. Looking back at what logs I took while the MBC was on the car I'm confident it was installed properly. When the MBC was installed and I used it to adjust the boost up or down, the readings taken via the MAP and ZT sensor both showed the boost level rising and falling according to the adjustments to the MBC. I also removed the MBC, plugged the ends of the hoses and made more runs, the N75 appeared to be functioning correctly so I don't think either tee junction was incorrectly plumbed.

Friday when I learned that the tune could be done with just the N75 I went ahead and pulled the MBC out. I've got logs with both setups on this current tune, so as we look to up the boost some I've got data to show how the car is responding in each configuartion.

[bobos]

Anyone find out why WMS had an issue with the waste gates on the FT?

[70 eliminator]

well i doubt the problem has to do with the puck or arm they are high quality investment cast stuff with a truly huge gate
the cracking pressure seems to be what has come up a few times and i think with a larger gate and more surface area for the turbine inlet pressure to act on wicked might be wanting a much higher preload to keep it shut for his particular desired result and tuning style .

in order to support the huge waste gate with a completely dedicated housing
slappy has had to do some machining to the casting that is sufficent but a little lacking in perfection i am sure over the production lifespan there might be a different casting or different machining..some day but then we wouldent get such a great price point!!!

i am still working on a cnc housing porting file but am lacking wastegate pucks of the correct size so i am roughing out the housing defore i enter the dimensions in to the computer .
the ported franken turbo housing can flow lots of air it just dosent have the most elagant entrance geometry to keep costs low enough for us to be uber excited about them doug however speced heavy duty arms and quality pucks i have seen some stamped metal pucks and some seriously cheap shetmetal arms on lesser turbos

i am still trying to source pucks for my home cnc modded housings doug might know where to get them ?? i got dollars!!!

the frankengate i think a 34 mm !!!
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x271/yakturd/audi/DSC06485.jpg

and a production cko4 gate
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x271/yakturd/audi/DSC06484.jpg

notice the slight difference right there next to the nickel..
its the area to the left that is not metal its air its the space where metal used to exist

the fear about rp turbos was well founded as evidence would suggest seeing the blown up stuff.
a bit of slack could be cut due to the price point and the fact that many who were buying the 2 ond cheapest option turbo would be doing the cheapest install as well . if the install was in uncle guidos drive way i am sure the highest levell of technician was used
but it seems RP they said they looked them over reall good and tested them with a nasa machine . what really happened was they took a solution offered from a factory and ran with it with out the ability to change design they seem to have been selling a slightly different cko4 but a stock mass produced off the shelf cko4


doug has however a real relationshap with the factory , a compressor that is not 15 year old tech, failures he learned from on the 1.8t stuff to build on, and the ability to get the factory to make small batches with the changes he desires..

so yea the castings are similar but the overall product is managed not just marketed.... ots cko4 can be had by anybody from many different factorys in china frankens arent of the shelf!!!

i bet there will be failures a plenty when people begin to over spin them etc... but thats abuse...

but show me a borg warner that will live with a forgin object in the blades or a oil line installed in reverse...

[70 eliminator]

and the puck size
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x271/yakturd/audi/DSC06526.jpg

[slappy_dunbar]

70 -

What is the turbo that you're calling "ck04"? What brand is it?

[70 eliminator]

well i should say ncfcrc k04 neo capitilist formerly comunist red chinese

cko4=chinese made k04
cko4 is short hand for lazy people like me that cant speel chineese well and arent consistent cko4=chinese made k04

the one with the pathetic wastegate entrance and port size is a mid range chinese made housing i got to prototype my cnc program...
the nicer port in the other thread is a polish made housing from a real bw setup.

[jibberjive]

i am still trying to source pucks for my home cnc modded housings

Home CNC, meaning you have a CNC at your house? Just curious as I work with a CNC daily, PM me some details on the setup (if you don't mind)!

[70 eliminator]

we have an old 70's era bridgport the kind that used to use punchcards and had a three foot cabinet of electronics. with it. its now hooked up with geko controlers and a old desktop water cooling and shower curtain.. around it not glamorous but it gets the job done we used it to cut the casting cores for our home built foundry. was mostly a diversion but when my friend sold his cnc shop we no longer had time on the machines at night they went to full time use making medical implants.. so we needed to get somthing going on in the preformance shop..for his preformance shop that is now sitting idle while we rethink what we want to make you cam make one like these
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/cnc-home-shop-201259/

[jibberjive]

Nice, that's pretty cool.

[70 eliminator]

not my setup but similar

[flyingfish2626]

we have an old 70's era bridgport the kind that used to use punchcards and had a three foot cabinet of electronics. with it. its now hooked up with geko controlers and a old desktop water cooling and shower curtain.. around it not glamorous but it gets the job done we used it to cut the casting cores for our home built foundry. was mostly a diversion but when my friend sold his cnc shop we no longer had time on the machines at night they went to full time use making medical implants.. so we needed to get somthing going on in the preformance shop..for his preformance shop that is now sitting idle while we rethink what we want to make you cam make one like these
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/cnc-home-shop-201259/

Where are you located in Colorado?

[FlyboyS4]

Some results now with just the N75, previously I was trying to use the N75 in parallel with MBC. This is the first file based upon this new configuration.


Why I am doing this (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/430121-FlyboyS4-shifting-gears-TiAL-605-gt-FrankenTurbo-F4H?p=6520416&viewfull=1#post6520416)


http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/June2011/06Jun/fats.gif

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/June2011/06Jun/accel.gif

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/June2011/06Jun/boost.gif

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/June2011/06Jun/n75.gif

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/June2011/06Jun/inj_dc.gif

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/June2011/06Jun/maf.gif

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/June2011/06Jun/o2v.gif

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/June2011/06Jun/afr.gif

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/June2011/06Jun/iat.gif

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/June2011/06Jun/kv.gif

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/June2011/06Jun/timing.gif

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/June2011/06Jun/ret.gif

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/June2011/06Jun/o2egt.gif

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/June2011/06Jun/egt.gif

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/June2011/06Jun/eload.gif

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/June2011/06Jun/eloads.gif

[Don Supreme]

Nice clean logs, thanks for posting.

[jordon]

Nice logs! Those frankens are coming along nicely!
Just curious, what is the difference between the blue logs and the red/pink ones? Is that a 1st and 2nd revision or something?

[FlyboyS4]

Just curious, what is the difference between the blue logs and the red/pink ones? Is that a 1st and 2nd revision or something?

The red/pink lines were done when the ambient temp was ~81F, also after the car had been driven, sat for thirty minutes, then started and logged. So unfavorable conditions relative to the blue lines which were in ~71F temps, after driving several minutes so all the intake parts temps had time to stabilize.

[Cadiburns]

Are you running meth? Guessing no. Also, boost profile and DC kinda goofy. The FTs really drop off in higher RPM. Otherwise looks prty good.

[Don Supreme]

Are you running meth? Guessing no. Also, boost profile and DC kinda goofy. The FTs really drop off in higher RPM. Otherwise looks prty good.

He is probably running meth.

[AudiSportB5S4]

He has said a few times that he isn't running WI on this setup.

If he was running WI and getting that timing retard with such low timing (relative to those who run alcohol), there would be a problem.

[michael66899]

Good stuff, thanks for posting the logs, do you have any from when you still had the 605s on?

[Don Supreme]

He has said a few times that he isn't running WI on this setup.

If he was running WI and getting that timing retard with such low timing (relative to those who run alcohol), there would be a problem.

IAT delta is really good for not having meth.. good stuff then.

[Cadiburns]

IAT delta is really good for not having meth.. good stuff then.

2 Words. Evolution Racewerks. My car recently....ERs....no W/M.

http://www.customperformancesolutions.com/logs/steves/newbase/steve_s_newbase_28876_image008.gif

[Don Supreme]

2 Words. Evolution Racewerks. My car recently....ERs....no W/M.

http://www.customperformancesolutions.com/logs/steves/newbase/steve_s_newbase_28876_image008.gif

Yes I have them + shrouds on my car as well, but I also run meth.

[FlyboyS4]

Good stuff, thanks for posting the logs, do you have any from when you still had the 605s on?

Yes. I'll post some comparisons once the tuning is done. No point having people draw conclusions and then spread bad information based upon an incomplete tune.

[70 eliminator]

indeed

[FlyboyS4]

**FrankenTurbo tuning is temporarily on hold**

I was notified today by VAST Performance that they are defaulting on their contract with me and retaining the funds I paid to them. This leaves me with an incomplete tune for the foreseeable future.

[DESPOT D S4]

Seriously. WTF

[S4UCE]

I'd be interested in hearing both sides of this one

[tosh2.7]

UMMMM WHAT!!!!!!?

[mecham]

wait..what?

Is this for everyone that ordered the frank + vast fueling kit?

[WMi_S4]

Hopefully someone from VAST chimes in so we can hear both sides of the story.

[S4UCE]

wait..what?

Is this for everyone that ordered the frank + vast fueling kit?


No.

[grassman]

Contract? Or did you just buy a tune? I thought I read on here Vast only gives 3 revisions after the ots. I know they've changed their tuning policy.

[DESPOT D S4]

vast imo is slowly going down hill.......

[twiztids4]

sounds like EPL is the way to go...

[DESPOT D S4]

ASP AWE EPL

[THECOUNT]

The Tune is complete, and no this does not apply to everyone.

Unfortunately you can not make everyone happy & this is the case with Jeff. I am not going to go in to detail about this subject, what I will say is that after 6 revisions the tune is solid. And you do not have a contract, but you purchased did purchase a basic tune which came with 3 revisions. As usual Mike went above & beyond to help a customer no matter what their attitude is and provided you with 6 revisions.

We do our best to accommodate every customer we have but you can not always make everyone happy.

[fatezero]

Who is "we" and who the hell are you? If you work for VAST, then you should be replying under their account. I believe that is an AZ requirement.

I know Jeff is super anal, but he is nothing less than ethical and a number of people follow Jeff's comments and recommendations when it comes to products and tunes because he is so methodical.

VAST needs to make this right or you will be losing a number of followers unfortunately.




The Tune is complete, and no this does not apply to everyone.

Unfortunately you can not make everyone happy & this is the case with Jeff. I am not going to go in to detail about this subject, what I will say is that after 6 revisions the tune is solid. And you do not have a contract, but you purchased did purchase a basic tune which came with 3 revisions. As usual Mike went above & beyond to help a customer no matter what their attitude is and provided you with 6 revisions.

We do our best to accommodate every customer we have but you can not always make everyone happy.

[michael66899]

Well, post some logs and we'll see how "complete" it really is.

[AudiSportB5S4]

Well, post some logs and we'll see how "complete" it really is.

Yeah that would be great... Since it is complete, Come on Jeff go out and run a log right now.. Late night should be a great time to lock and load.

[AudiSportB5S4]

UMMMM WHAT!!!!!!?

Ray you don't have to worry... The saying you can't please everyone applies to this guy right here. There is more than what lies beneath as to why he came from 605s to FTs.

[bigern45]

Ray you don't have to worry... The saying you can't please everyone applies to this guy right here. There is more than what lies beneath as to why he came from 605s to FTs.

I KNEW IT!!!!!

[Angular]

vast imo is slowly going down hill.......

Just wait, the next thing you're going to hear is: "this is why VAST is getting away from the B5 platform." The customers simply have unrealistic expectations, complain too much, etc.


The saying you can't please everyone applies to this guy right here. There is more than what lies beneath as to why he came from 605s to FTs.

This seems to be recurring theme with VAST customers, especially those in a "remote tune" situation. Suggesting there is more to the story is both obvious and pointless (as you're being coy with the details).

[jibberjive]

It's a shame, if they wanted to get away from the B5 platform, they should've made it a clean break to leave their past reputation intact. They've worked too hard for too long to have the past 8 months or so tarnish their reputation in the B5 arena so badly.

[Angular]

It's a shame, if they wanted to get away from the B5 platform...

Well, that is/was speculation on my part and nothing really unique to VAST. It's like what the JHM guy said about B5 S4 owners being the worst customers (in so many words). From a business standpoint, the B5 is an old platform and not something that's going to generate a lot of revenue compared to the newer cars.

Anyway, that's getting off topic. I am looking forward to some logs from the OP so we can see how complete or incomplete the tune is. I think VAST (THE COUNT) is pretty quick to publicly label the customer as impossible to please. Six revisions means nothing if each revision the customer received was crap, so I don't think that tell us anything useful at all.

[tosh2.7]

vast imo is slowly going down hill.......

that is a bias opinion saying your doing a 605 build and had an EPL tune before hand.


Ray you don't have to worry... The saying you can't please everyone applies to this guy right here. There is more than what lies beneath as to why he came from 605s to FTs.

Thats what I was thinking, just got a tid-bit worried.

[AudiSportB5S4]

Thats what I was thinking, just got a tid-bit worried.

I personally guarantee you'll be happy. I run my own customer service department myself so you don't have to worry [:D]

[DESPOT D S4]

that is a bias opinion saying your doing a 605 build and had an EPL tune before hand.



Thats what I was thinking, just got a tid-bit worried.

EPL is not doing my tune...
Changed my mind. Going with marks tune. And Josh is also working on a tune.
So my car will be ASP tuned and Jfonz tuned.

If I get enough money I'll get two more ecu's and get a vast and EPL as well to compare.

[AUDILUX]

EPL is not doing my tune...
Changed my mind. Going with marks tune. And Josh is also working on a tune.
So my car will be ASP tuned and Jfonz tuned.

If I get enough money I'll get two more ecu's and get a vast and EPL as well to compare.

ASP is top notch! Mark knows his stuff!!

[FlyboyS4]

Since the events of the last few days are still pretty fresh I’ll go and give you my perspective on things, there’s a lot that I still need to address but putting it together will take some time.

I’ll start by recapping the revisions my code has undergone so that at least on the tuning side of things you understand where things have come from.

Revision 1 was what is more commonly referred to as a base tune. This is the first file that gets loaded onto the ECU to enable the car to run with the primary aftermarket hardware. I believe standard practice is to create a conservative file so that any issues with the car or tune can be caught without endangering the car. In my case this program had an error and my car wouldn’t run properly.

Revision 2 was the correction to revision 1, the base tune. With this file I was able to gather some data to provide to VAST.

Revision 3, the first revision to be based on data produced by my car. There were some anomalies with the data, and after discussion with VAST it was realized that the tune was targeted to an MBC only setup, I was using the MBC in parallel with the N75 as I had not been instructed to do otherwise. I also learned that if I wished to do an N75 only tune that would be possible. I decided to pursue that option and told VAST so. Due to the earlier confusion about the boost control mechanism I followed up to confirm they understood I was going N75 only. I received a confirmation that my plan was understood.

Revision 4 arrived and I collected data on it and sent it back to VAST. A couple of the concerns I had with the results were addressed by VAST stating that what I was seeing was typical with an MBC in parallel with the N75. Yes, the code had once again been out of sync with my cars boost control mechanism, so back went the ECU.

Revision 5 arrived, finally I had a software tune that was programmed with the proper hardware in mind. I collected the first N75 only data set with valid coding and sent the results to VAST. The boost profile had some unusual behavior to me and the N75 duty cycle exhibited a discontinuity at the exact same rpm each pull. The boost also dropped quickly after peaking, with the MAP sensor reestablishing readings around 5700 rpm. I sent VAST a notional boost profile based on plotting airflow and PR on the F4H compressor MAP in hopes of giving them some idea of where I’d like the tune to go. The response I got was simple, “thanks for the information.”

Revision 6 was enroute to me when VAST contacted me to pay for the return shipping on revision 5 and 6. I was bothered by the fact that I had spent $26 shipping my ECU to and from them for revision 4 which had been improperly coded. So I contacted VAST and asked if it would be possible to apply the $26 I had paid for the faulty revision to the $28 of shipping charges I owed for revisions 5 & 6. The answer I got back was, no we can’t do that, the customer is responsible for all shipping costs even when we make a mistake. [Note: At this point VAST has said nothing about revision 6 being the final revision.]

I thought that charging me for their error was unfair, and I went onto another B5S4 forum and made a post saying what is up with VAST’s shipping policy? I’ve made some posts on that forum about other grievances I have had with VAST’s conduct toward me. I intentionally kept the discussions to that forum because of the limited aspect of the membership there, but I do not believe I have to keep silent about the experience I have had tuning the car.

Back to the revisions, late Friday I received my ECU back with revision 6, the first to be based off of data with the N75. I decided to wait until Monday to get some data back to VAST. Saturday around noon I’m sitting in my house when the phone rings, the caller is Andy from VAST, a person I have had no interaction with previously. He starts to berate me for making a post on another forum. I realize I’m on the phone with “the Andy”, the one whose reputation precedes him. So I quietly listen to him launch into a denigrating tirade for what was at least 10-15 minutes. I barely get any chance to say anything, and when I try and correct inaccurate statements about my conduct with VAST it only serves to fire him up for an even more vigorous admonishment of me. Eventually he starts to run out of steam, but concludes by saying if I want any more revisions I’ll have to pay, and then ends the call.

Wow! That was the most offensive behavior I have ever observed from a business person. Since Andy went on for so long I wasn’t real clear on what it was VAST was going to do so I emailed a more level headed employee and asked if they could be specific about how they were going to proceed.
[Note: VAST has not received any feedback or data concerning the revision they just sent me.]

The reply I get tells me that I’ll be paying from here on out if I want any more revisions. I reply addressing several topics and ask about the 3 future revisions for hardware changes that were part of my purchase. Andy then reenters the picture via email and informs me that VAST has deemed the tune to be done and they will no longer be able to support my needs.

There’s a bit more that he said but a good amount was just berating me some more and didn’t change the gist of the message.

Those are the facts from the customer’s perspective.

[Evilevo]

The Tune is complete, and no this does not apply to everyone.

Unfortunately you can not make everyone happy & this is the case with Jeff. I am not going to go in to detail about this subject, what I will say is that after 6 revisions the tune is solid. And you do not have a contract, but you purchased did purchase a basic tune which came with 3 revisions. As usual Mike went above & beyond to help a customer no matter what their attitude is and provided you with 6 revisions.

We do our best to accommodate every customer we have but you can not always make everyone happy.

Was my tune solid too? I had 14 revisions............

[Evilevo]

Since the events of the last few days are still pretty fresh I’ll go and give you my perspective on things, there’s a lot that I still need to address but putting it together will take some time.

I’ll start by recapping the revisions my code has undergone so that at least on the tuning side of things you understand where things have come from.

Revision 1 was what is more commonly referred to as a base tune. This is the first file that gets loaded onto the ECU to enable the car to run with the primary aftermarket hardware. I believe standard practice is to create a conservative file so that any issues with the car or tune can be caught without endangering the car. In my case this program had an error and my car wouldn’t run properly.

Revision 2 was the correction to revision 1, the base tune. With this file I was able to gather some data to provide to VAST.

Revision 3, the first revision to be based on data produced by my car. There were some anomalies with the data, and after discussion with VAST it was realized that the tune was targeted to an MBC only setup, I was using the MBC in parallel with the N75 as I had not been instructed to do otherwise. I also learned that if I wished to do an N75 only tune that would be possible. I decided to pursue that option and told VAST so. Due to the earlier confusion about the boost control mechanism I followed up to confirm they understood I was going N75 only. I received a confirmation that my plan was understood.

Revision 4 arrived and I collected data on it and sent it back to VAST. A couple of the concerns I had with the results were addressed by VAST stating that what I was seeing was typical with an MBC in parallel with the N75. Yes, the code had once again been out of sync with my cars boost control mechanism, so back went the ECU.

Revision 5 arrived, finally I had a software tune that was programmed with the proper hardware in mind. I collected the first N75 only data set with valid coding and sent the results to VAST. The boost profile had some unusual behavior to me and the N75 duty cycle exhibited a discontinuity at the exact same rpm each pull. The boost also dropped quickly after peaking, with the MAP sensor reestablishing readings around 5700 rpm. I sent VAST a notional boost profile based on plotting airflow and PR on the F4H compressor MAP in hopes of giving them some idea of where I’d like the tune to go. The response I got was simple, “thanks for the information.”

Revision 6 was enroute to me when VAST contacted me to pay for the return shipping on revision 5 and 6. I was bothered by the fact that I had spent $26 shipping my ECU to and from them for revision 4 which had been improperly coded. So I contacted VAST and asked if it would be possible to apply the $26 I had paid for the faulty revision to the $28 of shipping charges I owed for revisions 5 & 6. The answer I got back was, no we can’t do that, the customer is responsible for all shipping costs even when we make a mistake. [Note: At this point VAST has said nothing about revision 6 being the final revision.]

I thought that charging me for their error was unfair, and I went onto the Wayot B5S4 forum and made a post saying what is up with VAST’s shipping policy? I’ve made some posts on that forum about other grievances I have had with VAST’s conduct toward me. I intentionally kept the discussions to that forum because of the limited aspect of the membership there, but I do not believe I have to keep silent about the experience I have had tuning the car.

Back to the revisions, late Friday I received my ECU back with revision 6, the first to be based off of data with the N75. I decided to wait until Monday to get some data back to VAST. Saturday around noon I’m sitting in my house when the phone rings, the caller is Andy from VAST, a person I have had no interaction with previously. He starts to berate me for making a post on Wayot. I realize I’m on the phone with “the Andy”, the one whose reputation precedes him. So I quietly listen to him launch into a denigrating tirade for what was at least 10-15 minutes. I barely get any chance to say anything, and when I try and correct inaccurate statements about my conduct with VAST it only serves to fire him up for an even more vigorous admonishment of me. Eventually he starts to run out of steam, but concludes by saying if I want any more revisions I’ll have to pay, and then ends the call.

Wow! That was the most offensive behavior I have ever observed from a business person. Since Andy went on for so long I wasn’t real clear on what it was VAST was going to do so I emailed a more level headed employee and asked if they could be specific about how they were going to proceed.
[Note: VAST has not received any feedback or data concerning the revision they just sent me.]

The reply I get tells me that I’ll be paying from here on out if I want any more revisions. I reply addressing several topics and ask about the 3 future revisions for hardware changes that were part of my purchase. Andy then reenters the picture via email and informs me that VAST has deemed the tune to be done and they will no longer be able to support my needs.

There’s a bit more that he said but a good amount was just berating me some more and didn’t change the gist of the message.

Those are the facts from the customer’s perspective.

That really sucks man. As I said before, VAST went downhill when Andy joined. He is making changes that should not have been made and taking the shop in a different direction from where they were and need to be.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. I would drive the car back up EPL though.

[WMi_S4]

Who is "we" and who the hell are you? If you work for VAST, then you should be replying under their account. I believe that is an AZ requirement.

I know Jeff is super anal, but he is nothing less than ethical and a number of people follow Jeff's comments and recommendations when it comes to products and tunes because he is so methodical.

VAST needs to make this right or you will be losing a number of followers unfortunately.

The Count is Andy, the Operations Manager at VAST

[spokismB5S4]

lol wow

[FlyboyS4]

My post yesterday addressed the dramatic default by VAST on their obligation, before this though were a string agonizing frustrations for me. No one single thing here put me over the edge, in fact throughout all of this I ended up continuing to work with VAST, though I did try to leave them. But this will give you an idea of the frustrations I endured and as they accumulated I grew less and less enthused.

************************************************** ********-

1. 2nd ECU was not allowed. - 12 days after purchasing the fueling kit and tuning I informed VAST I would be purchasing a 2nd ECU to send to them for the initial base file. Two months later when I had sent it to them they informed me that I could only use a single ECU during tuning, forcing my car to be inoperative a week at a time while I waited on shipping of a single ECU back and forth.

2. Misquoting fueling kit cost - When I asked about the total cost of their tune, air filter, accordion pipe, MAF housing, and injectors I was told price $xxxx. I agreed to the price and sent payment. I was then asked if I intended to use my current 85mm MAF housing. Replying no, I was then told I would have to pay an additional $95 to get their MAF housing. It was explained as being a simple mistake that they overlooked.

3. Inability to combine shipment of items - While I was waiting for the fueling kit to be shipped I realized I would need a K04 install hardware kit, I asked if I purchased one if it could ship with the other parts to save on delivery charges. At the time VAST had a 10% promotion going and I inquired if that was applicable to my purchase of the hardware kit, I was told it was a web promotion and if I used the site to order the parts there was no guarantee it could ship with the other parts, which were supposed to be shipping that day. I figured paying separate shipping would be more than the discount savings so I paid the full amount to get the parts in with the other items that day. Turned out the parts weren't ready to ship but they hoped they would the following day. The next day my contact was sick and hadn't talked to the shop, so he didn't know what was going on. The next day he told me it hadn't shipped, but should this day. Later in the day he tells me everyone at VAST was at a dyno in town so my parts aren't going to be shipped out until the next day. Finally the next day the items do ship out after paying full price for the install kit to get it shipped quickly.

4. Inability to answer 85mm vs 90mm housing question - A significant concern of mine was the selection of MAF housings. Since I'd just removed an 85mm housing from my car that supported the larger TiAL 605 turbochargers I was puzzled by the use of a larger 90mm housing with the smaller FrankenTurbo's. I was hoping to understand what the rationale was. I sent a question about this to VAST, after three days I hadn't heard anything back so I contacted my local rep and emphasized that I was looking for an answer to this question. Three more days passed and still nobody had replied back at all. I send a third message expressing how unhappy I'm becoming with the lack of communication; I got an answer at this point.

5. Not using wideband air-to-fuel ratio information - I commented on some rich readings I was getting on my Innovate wideband AFR sensor, the response I got was "We look at voltage for afr, it's pointless to use a tailpipe sniffer as mixtures and heat change dramatically." Not a confidence inspiring comment.

6. Base file improperly coded - Shortly after receiving my ECU back with the initial base file I received a call from VAST stating there was a mandatory update needed to the software that would help with part throttle operation and improve fuel efficiency. Having just paid to ship it to them already I asked if still collecting some data from the tune would be possible, and then I could return the ECU for the update along with some data. I was informed that this was acceptable. When I finally got the car to the point where I could start the motor it would barely run. After doing some troubleshooting it became evident that the cause was the ECU software. Improving part throttle operation and fuel economy is far different than making the car undriveable. VAST paid to have the ECU shipped back and forth for the correction.

7. Claiming that correcting the faulty programming was an example of their great customer support - When I complained about some of the things I was experiencing I was admonished for not recognizing the great support they had been "We've all spent alot of time supporting you with... revising your file on our shipping dime on our own proactive approach." If they improperly coded my ECU the bare minimum I would expect would be for them to pay to have it shipped back for corrections.

8. Failing to answer my question about who I should be communicating with and what turnaround time to expect - As I grew more frustrated with not getting answers to questions I decided to hit the reset button and ask, who would you like me to submit my questions to, how long is a reasonable time to wait for an answer. VAST's main office never answered my question, I had to ask my local rep for help and he just said to send him any questions or data I had.

9. Difficulty working with local rep - I sent my local rep the first datalog with several pulls. He needed the runs separated, but his version of excel would not save in csv format so I had to provide the separated files for him. After getting the files into the proper format and filetype I sent them off for feedback, they responded saying they were out of the country and wouldn't be able to do anything with the data until they returned.

10. No acknowledging receipt of data I sent - More often than not, when I would send data logs to VAST I would not receive an acknowledgement that the information had been received.

11. No answers to questions about the results - It wasn't until I got to revision 4 that I received any answers back to specific questions I had about the data I was supplying. (The answers indicated VAST had misunderstood my car's hardware configuration. Had they communicated better earlier several revisions probably wouldn't have been needed.)

12. No refund - Very early on I started to get a bad feeling about VAST's business processes. With just the base tune loaded on my ECU I thought it was a good time to suggest parting ways. I was told that once the base tune was loaded onto the ECU a refund was not an option.

13. Talking about other tuners - When I said I thought breaking off the relationship would be wise I mentioned finding alternative tuning. VAST went on to tell me why I would not find any better service at two shops that they named specifically and that these other tuners didn't have the experience with FrankenTurbo's.

14. Guidance on how to incorporate the MBC - I'd never used a manual boost controller before so I inquired as to how they would like me to adjust it for use with the FrankenTurbo's. Feedback I got was very basic, ie set to 22 psi, and nothing more. Had they been more engaged with me we might have discovered more quickly that my MBC/N75 combo was not configured as a standalone MBC.

15. Stated EBC was recommended for turning up boost - With the initial results looking good I asked about turning boost pressure up. I was informed that they recommended using a Turbosmart E-boost 2 (retail $539) for turning up the boost.

16. Selling fueling kit with MBC or N75 - After purchasing the fueling kit, that included a manual boost controller, I found VAST advertising that they sold the kit with N75 or MBC options. These alternatives were not brought to my attention when I purchased the kit and since I preferred the N75 only option I wasn't very happy.

17. Using `free hardware revision' to go to N75 only setup - After discovering that N75 only tuning was an option I stated that was how I would like to proceed. I was told to do so would entail using one of my 3 free revisions. This statement was later overruled by a higher level person at VAST.

18. Offering then reneging on 50% refund offer - Growing more exasperated I again requested a refund. I was told I could get a 50% refund. I spent several days discussing continuing to work together and as the outlook grew less promising I decided to accept the 50% offer. When I did so I was told I now had asked about a refund a couple of times, "which isn't going to happen."

19. Being an ass - I said I wanted a refund and that I was sending my ECU back. I was told by the shop owner "That's great but you're not getting a refund. It's going to sit here until you pay me to ship it back to you."

20. Free revisions supplant previous file - The three revision policy as it was explained to me made it sound like I'd be able to have multiple tunes on different ECU's. When I asked for clarification about the 3 future revisions I was told "if you need any bigger changes, we revise it for you a few times for free...let's say one month you add methanol or another month you add race gas, etc." Since I couldn't envision driving around on $6-7 a gallon race gas all of the time I figured a separate ECU could be used for this specialty tune. I learned only a single tune was available to the customer at a time.

21. Multiple revisions, more cost - After being disappointed about not being able to have multiple tunes I learned that VAST did make available a multiple tune option, but it was limited to just 2 files and they were on the same ECU. This was ok, then I learned that it would cost another $250 to do. If I wanted to put one of my revisions on a separate ECU it would be the same cost as a full-blown tune.

22. Software tuner does not communicate with customers - After I started sending data in to VAST I got an auto reply that was disappointing "Hi, Mike@VAST will no longer be able to reply to any customer related emails from June 1st, 2011 and on. Only vendor and committed project/development build emails will be replied to."

23. Not stating up front that customer pays return shipping on updates - I purchased a tune from the company and I figured it represented the costs to get a complete tune.

24. Changing shipping policy mid-project - I was informed about halfway through the tuning that I was responsible for the return shipping charges. This notification contradicted the process that had taken place for the first three revisions where VAST had paid the return shipping on each revision. Upon completion of revision four VAST advised me that I was responsible for return shipping for this revision, as well as the previous revision 3 that had been delivered a month prior.

25. Stating that the customer must pay a $50 labor charge for flashing the ECU - I was informed that VAST charges customers $50 for the labor involved with flashing the customers ECU.

26. Flashing an ECU takes 50 minutes - When I questioned the flashing labor charge I was told that 50 minutes were spent loading the revised file onto the ECU. Knowing how long my APR home programmer takes to overwrite an ECU, and how long the EPL flash loader takes, about 5 minutes, I thought they must be lying, or they use a very antiquated process.

27. Throwing former employee under bus - When I asked why I hadn't been told that I could not use a second ECU during tuning the answer I got was to blame a former employee by name, and to state that multiple problems being experienced by the organization had resulted from the prior employee.

28. UPS Shipping charges - I ask about the UPS shipping charges since the return shipping was 25% more than my cost to ship to them. I was told that VAST charged exactly what UPS charged them. I asked for a copy of the receipt from UPS but was told they did batch orders and could not provide any direct UPS receipt.

29. Paying for unnecessary shipping options - Once I began paying for the return shipping I learned that VAST was including Signature Confirmation without asking if I wanted to pay for that option.

30. Finding out VAST wasn't charging exactly what UPS charged them - With the commencement of the return shipping charges VAST billed me for the revision they had just made, as well as the revision from a month prior. I was billed the same amount, $16, for each shipment. At the same time I noticed the signature confirmation option, but didn't recall with the previous shipment being required to sign. I contacted UPS with the prior months tracking number to determine what the shipping cost really was, $8.67 shipping + $2.25 insurance + $0.82 fuel surcharge = $11.74, and no signature confirmation, VAST pricing: $16. VAST simply assumed the previous month was the same amount as the delivery with signature confirmation and billed me the same amount.

31. Paying for shipment of ECU with code error - After receiving revision 4 and sending data to VAST their feedback made it clear they still thought I was using a MBC. When I asked about getting credited for the shipping charges on the improperly coded revision they told me no, the customer always pays return shipping charges even when we make a mistake.

32. Changing shipping policy on errors - The initial error VAST made to the programming led them to pay for expedited shipping back to them to correct the faulty code, and then the return shipping to me. Later on when they made the same error they stated that the customer always paid the return shipping, contradicting their earlier procedure.

33. Realizing that VAST was tuning the code based on incorrect understanding of vehicle - Inexplicably it was not until the fifth revision of the code that VAST began tuning the software for the hardware configuration that my car had. Because of the lack of communication to me on their part concerning the tuning changes they were making and the data I was sending to them hours of their time and mine were wasted.

34. Verified hardware and still screwed up - When I realized the coding/hardware match errors of previous revisions I specifically requested confirmation that VAST understood I was using only the N75 and my desire was to move forward with the N75 only arrangement, the response I got was "Your desire was received." Yet when I sent the results of the revised file to VAST I heard back to my questions "This is normal. With the parallel MBC, it's looking excellent." And "but with the parallel mbc, you're going to see the current plateau and it stays "safe" all of the time with that mechanical piece in place." And after pointing out the error "I want to apologize about thinking the N75 was in Parallel."

35. Calling me at home to harass me.

36. Stating that I was lying to VAST employees.

37. Over exaggerating the level of support that VAST offered to me via phone/email conversation throughout the tuning process.


I'll cut this off at the harassing phone call and email exchange, since what has thus followed while even more disappointing is now being done intentionally toward me, everything before was being done toward a paying customer that was working to get a tune completed.

[Capt. Obvious]

EPL or bust.

[AudiA4_20T]

1. Makes sense because then you would essentially have 2 tunes

5. Makes sense also because not everyone has a wideband so they have to work with what they have

10. This is not that crazy either

12. I can somewhat understand this, but it does seem rather extreme

19. Wow

20. Once again, this is not crazy at all because you essentially would have 2 tunes

23. This is the standard in the industry unless otherwise noted

25. This is not that uncommon in the industry either

28. You shipped to a business, they shipped to a customer. It's going to be cheaper for you

29. This makes sense to me, you're talking about a $1000 ECU

30. While you shipping to them might be cheaper, upcharging for nothing is wrong

The last bit is crazy and I'm surprised that they would do that.

These are my thoughts from someone who used to work in a shop like VAST working with another software company. A lot of things that may seem unfair are normal with tuning companies, as much as that sucks. However, VAST seems to really be losing it lately. It's what happens when you expand a company exponentially without expanding the tuning force. Sad, but true

[VAST]

VAST Performance Tuning Policies, 2011

In light of recent events with three isolated tunes, VAST would like to clarify our policies towards our engine computer remapping services.

1. Any tuning sold to an end user is allowed a base file with unlimited revisions until VAST concludes it is best suited for intended use at our own discretion. We typically have a vehicle dialed in very closely within 1-3 attempts. Customer can request what they'd like to see in the tune prior to tuning. (Low boost, aggressive boost, aggressive timing, etc)

2. Revisions/Reflashes may be done at a VAST reseller local to the end user, or the end user may ship the ecu to and from VAST at the end user’s cost. VAST will not charge any software programming fees or development fees, unless the revision/reflash is outside the scope of the tuning purchase.

3. When receiving tuning support from a VAST reseller, please note, that reseller may charge a small fee for their services. End user must inquire with said reseller about their fees. Excessive fees by VAST resellers must be brought to VAST’s attention, in order to better serve our customers around the world.

4. Standard tunes are described as base tunes that are developed for a known set of hardware, typically supplied by VAST. Customizing the standard tune is allowed for the base file, until it runs appropriately, in accordance with VAST’s standards
and with the end user’s initial objectives in mind. Please note, the vehicle may only run as well as the hardware allows. 3 more revisions are allowed, thereafter. For any revisions past the original base file and 3 subsequent files, there will be a $50 minimum charge per file revision.

5. “Support” is defined as any tune related question in relation to drivability and hardware on vehicle, and reflashing services. Once a tune is licensed to the end user, they will receive support on that tuning for the life of the vehicle. Support includes any communication via phone and email, labor involved, etc.

6. There are no refunds on any tune developed and flashed on an engine computer.

7. Development fees may be charged on engine computer tuning that may be new to VAST.

8. VAST is not responsible for inadequate hardware or poor build quality, in relation to the tuning’s performance. VAST is not responsible for any damage to vehicle, vehicle’s parts, person or property.

9. VAST software licensing is only applicable to the original purchaser. If a vehicle is sold to another party, support for that tune is terminated. A relicensing fee and tuning support fee will be charged to treat that software as if it were purchased by the original end user. Fees start at $150 for relicensing and custom remapping starts at 50% of the retail cost.

10. End user must be able to have access to sufficient OBD-II data logging tools, if they choose to go a customizable tune route. VAST is able to provide input on what data is relevant to their revision process as well as what tools are preferred. If access to proper tools is limited nor not present, this may greatly effect the support and revision capabilities in an adverse manner.

11. Custom tune requests may be made to sales@vastperformance.com or custom@vastperformance.com. Where applicable, a tuning information template may be filled out prior to receiving our price quote. Please see: http://
www.vastperformance.com/VAST_tuning_2.doc

12. VAST Performance reserves the right to refuse a new tune request. VAST accepts tunes on a case by case basis. VAST Performance reserves the right to refuse any file revision requests that we deem unreasonable, unsafe or outside the limits of the vehicle’s capabilities. All software developed is for off-road use only and not meant to meet or exceed emissions requirements.

13. VAST is not required to provide tools to log OBD-II data, service vehicle, etc.

****

This post is to inform our customer base and have everyone on the same page. Since our tuning has grown substantially in the recent years, we have found our remote tuning process to become more complicated for a few cases forcing us to create a handbook that we go by. We have HUNDREDS of customers, and many of them will tell you how they are more than satisfied with the way their car drives. While you cannot please everyone in the line of business, we have always done our best to be fair to the customer and fair to us as well.

We have sold 40+ FrankenTurbo kits in the past months and we have many happy customers enjoying their cars.

[FlyboyS4]

These are my thoughts from someone who used to work in a shop like VAST working with another software company. A lot of things that may seem unfair are normal with tuning companies, as much as that sucks. However, VAST seems to really be losing it lately. It's what happens when you expand a company exponentially without expanding the tuning force. Sad, but true

I'm not going to argue with you over this stuff, some of it was situation driven. Things like charging me for return shipping, not really a shocker and I can understand a business needing to do so, but why let three revisions go by where you aren't charging for the return shipment, and then announce that it is your policy to charge return shipping.

VAST took a step in the right direction by posting their policy, it will be a tremendous help for anyone considering working with them to know what to expect. I was stuck discovering things along the way, and generally it was not me benefiting from the newly announced normal procedure.

I've spent a lot of time being negative toward VAST and they earned it. It would be wrong of me not to acknowledge the positives of the experience. They were helpful during the planning phases and hardware install, they contributed a couple of low cost parts at no charge (o2 bung plugs), they nearly always turned my ECU around the same day, and the person I spoke with on the phone (Jason) was easy to deal with. I don't doubt that they have the technical skills needed to tune a car properly, but having the skills and making the effort necessary to pull off a great tune are different.

I really get the sense that the business has grown beyond their capacity to manage it and they are trying to do too much and spreading themselves too thinly. Tuning seems to be more of an assembly line process there, whereas at a place like EPL you've got the master craftsman devoting himself to tuning and leaving the extraneous crap to others. EvilEvo's 100 hp gain going from VAST to EPL is astonishing. The number of times I heard from somebody at VAST how they were so busy and would get to me or my stuff as soon as they could was a clear indicator. Then I saw that Memorial Day sale post with this line "NOW INCLUDING Log Manifolds Hand Made by Mike in-shop" and I'm saying to myself, WTF? This is "THE" tuner, and he's hand making manifolds? No wonder his email auto-reply is that he isn't dealing with customers anymore, how in the hell do you find the time to diligently tune all those FrankenTurbo kits and also hand make parts?

[wan2play]

I'm not going to argue with you over this stuff, some of it was situation driven. Things like charging me for return shipping, not really a shocker and I can understand a business needing to do so, but why let three revisions go by where you aren't charging for the return shipment, and then announce that it is your policy to charge return shipping.

VAST took a step in the right direction by posting their policy, it will be a tremendous help for anyone considering working with them to know what to expect. I was stuck discovering things along the way, and generally it was not me benefiting from the newly announced normal procedure.

I've spent a lot of time being negative toward VAST and they earned it. It would be wrong of me not to acknowledge the positives of the experience. They were helpful during the planning phases and hardware install, they contributed a couple of low cost parts at no charge (o2 bung plugs), they nearly always turned my ECU around the same day, and the person I spoke with on the phone (Jason) was easy to deal with. I don't doubt that they have the technical skills needed to tune a car properly, but having the skills and making the effort necessary to pull off a great tune are different.

I really get the sense that the business has grown beyond their capacity to manage it and they are trying to do too much and spreading themselves too thinly. Tuning seems to be more of an assembly line process there, whereas at a place like EPL you've got the master craftsman devoting himself to tuning and leaving the extraneous crap to others. EvilEvo's 100 hp gain going from VAST to EPL is astonishing. The number of times I heard from somebody at VAST how they were so busy and would get to me or my stuff as soon as they could was a clear indicator. Then I saw that Memorial Day sale post with this line "NOW INCLUDING Log Manifolds Hand Made by Mike in-shop" and I'm saying to myself, WTF? This is "THE" tuner, and he's hand making manifolds? No wonder his email auto-reply is that he isn't dealing with customers anymore, how in the hell do you find the time to diligently tune all those FrankenTurbo kits and also hand make parts?

wow looks like they need to hire some more help.

[onemoremile]

FWIW, I'm posting this as a customer - not as a moderator.

I've read through this and the other threads and it seems that you really like to complain. I do too when frustrated so I can relate. There are a few valid points in there but so much of that is just whining. I've had far worse dealings with companies and continue to do so on a regular basis because things don't always go as planned. My first drill sergeant's advice rings true - suck it up and move on. I do wonder, if EPL was so awesome, why pull out brand new turbos and start over? I'm sure there is a reasonable explanation but a little spool time can't be it, there just isn't enough difference between the setups. Did something happen with EPL and/or Tial?

I have an ecu at VAST for the FrankenTurbo S4 build I'm doing now. I filled out the tuning sheet and expect the ecu programming to follow it. If not, they will fix it. If it followed the sheet and I messed something up then it is my fault. It asked about all the hardware and I entered model numbers for the MAF and other parts to be certain I had done my due diligence. Did you do the same?

I've had a few dealings with Vast and they've been great. Email and phone communication have been excellent with both me and the client I'm building the car for. I've sent people there that dropped my name and they were treated very well and the same goes for those that approached them without this connection. This is why I chose to go with them.

As far as shipping goes, I've done similar with my clients. I usually charge for anything that isn't my responsibility but all too often I'll just cover it and not even mention it. Some have been charged later and asked why and I had no compunctions about informing them that they had gotten favors and after too many I had to charge to balance things out.

Businesses do experience growing pains. Mine is the same - some days I've got nothing at all while other times, like now, there are 22 projects backed up. So some days I always answer the phone and some I don't because it steals too much time from projects. Life ain't always easy. You asked how a tuner can weld manifolds, probably because he isn't doing both at once for 40 hours a week. Tune when the ecu comes in and weld when that is slow. It isn't like the pipes are going to walk away while he is on the computer.

I could start a rant thread about how I only got one exhaust gasket and one coolant temp sensor and didn't get the intake manifold gaskets I asked about but in the end it is my own dumb ass fault for not checking the invoice before paying and not doing a complete inventory of all the parts before starting the build. I contacted them saying as much and they are collecting all the other pieces. If I had checked the invoice it wouldn't have happened but at the most we can share the blame for that one. In the end I just couldn't care less about that because it doesn't slow the project down. I also spread those inquiries over several emails and calls which isn't the easiest or clearest way to communicate. Again, my dumb ass did it.

There are some things in your list that don't add up. How did it go that many revisions before the hardware config was known? I would have filled out another tune sheet and put it in the box with the ecu each time. That way they open it up and all the info is in one place.

I don't understand how you thought you could have programs on multiple ecus without paying for addition tunes. If they tuned 3 ecus for one price and then two were sold they wouldn't be protected from that theft and the seller would end up with a free tune. That doesn't sound good from a business perspective. It only makes sense to charge for each ecu that is tuned.

[ThirdStrike]

It's what happens when you expand a company exponentially without expanding the tuning force. Sad, but true
agreed

The number of times I heard from somebody at VAST how they were so busy and would get to me or my stuff as soon as they could was a clear indicator.
I've had similar situations with companies such as GIAC(and others which I wont name,resulting in refunds of my $900) which is why I have the tune that I do now.
It's not to say that I wouldnt stand behind GIAC's (or VAST's) name (after having problems) but Non-OTS setups arent easy to dial-in esp when done via correspondence.

Not saying this is your case op but sometimes people have expectations set for their car that cannot be met without applying certain risks that the software writer would rather avoid.

[AudiSportB5S4]

I think with all the time this guy has on his hands to type up multiple threads and replies daily during a normal workday for most people, he should self tune this bad boy to perfection. I don't think anyone will meet his expectations but himself.. Someone with as much knowledge as him should be downloading NefMoto's tuning software and going to town. [race] [up]

[SEXICÄN]

I just read this on QW...

The only thing i really read that i was shocked at was he was complaining about $4 over charged for shipping! who gives a shit, it's $4

[ThirdStrike]

I think with all the time this guy has on his hands to type up multiple threads and replies daily during a normal workday for most people, he should self tune this bad boy to perfection. I don't think anyone will meet his expectations but himself.. Someone with as much knowledge as him should be downloading NefMoto's tuning software and going to town. [race] [up]
THIS^x10

[Jsmooth65]

I just read this on QW...

The only thing i really read that i was shocked at was he was complaining about $4 over charged for shipping! who gives a shit, it's $4

Thats like 4 double cheeseburgers! LOL

[Angular]

I think with all the time this guy has on his hands to type up multiple threads and replies daily during a normal workday for most people, he should self tune this bad boy to perfection.

It's pretty obvious he's doing it out of frustration, not because he has nothing better to do. Maybe he had the day off today. Who knows and, more to the point, why is it any of your business?

Some of the items on the above list could be certainly be considered whining or nit picking by the customer, but others are just flat out inexcusable and/or unprofessional on VAST's part.

[tosh2.7]

Holy hell man

[RusS4]

I think with all the time this guy has on his hands to type up multiple threads and replies daily during a normal workday for most people, he should self tune this bad boy to perfection. I don't think anyone will meet his expectations but himself.. Someone with as much knowledge as him should be downloading NefMoto's tuning software and going to town. [race] [up]

I have never had any problems with you and most of the time I agree and respect what you say but im sorry just because you are on VAST's dick dosent mean they are always right. Your first sentence is fucking retarded. I guess ppl cant serve 20+ years in the military and retire and have time on their hands to work on hobbies. You always come in on topics that are towards VAST(which I understand because you are a remote tuner/seller/whatever the fuck you want to call it) and defend but you are wrong in this case. I have personally never had any problems with VAST and think they are a good company but Jeff was done wrong plain and simple. Your comments about how none of the other tuners will even tune him and he complains are just plain lame and incorrect. Jeff is a stand up guy and paid good hard earned money and expected a great tune which he STILL hasent gotten.

[FlyboyS4]

I've read through this and the other threads and it seems that you really like to complain.

I made these recent posts because I was dissatisfied. I can tell you I really wished to be able to post how happy I was with the final tune, and it is frustrating as hell to spend this much time with them and to finally be making what looked like progress only to have VAST's employee cross the line.


My first drill sergeant's advice rings true - suck it up and move on.

I guarantee you that drill sergeant had a hell of a lot more personal integrity than some of the people I've had to deal with. I'm afraid being harassed, having a contract defaulted on, and money lost is not something I'm going to suck up and move on with.


I do wonder, if EPL was so awesome, why pull out brand new turbos and start over? I'm sure there is a reasonable explanation but a little spool time can't be it, there just isn't enough difference between the setups. Did something happen with EPL and/or Tial?

I explained already why I made the switch, it is in the "shifting gears thread". I would work with Jonathan or Tony again in an instant, I have tremendous respect for the talents of both of them.


I filled out the tuning sheet and expect the ecu programming to follow it.

I had no such thing. At the start of process my Mods list was requested via email and I sent back what I had. That was the last time any modifications were spoken of aside from the MBC after the tuning started, but there was no discussion of the manner in which the MBC was installed. That sheet sounds like a great way to avoid the problems I encountered, I wish it had been part of the process for me.


I could start a rant thread about how I only got one exhaust gasket and one coolant temp sensor and didn't get the intake manifold gaskets I asked about but in the end it is my own dumb ass fault for not checking the invoice before paying and not doing a complete inventory of all the parts before starting the build.

I have an incomplete tune, violated contract, no future revisions as promised upfront, a person at VAST that I never interacted with going around spouting off complete lies and fairy tales about me, as well as other businesses I have worked with, and I'm out approximately $1500. I'm getting worked up over a bit more than a gasket and temp sensor.


I don't understand how you thought you could have programs on multiple ecus without paying for addition tunes. If they tuned 3 ecus for one price and then two were sold they wouldn't be protected from that theft and the seller would end up with a free tune. That doesn't sound good from a business perspective. It only makes sense to charge for each ecu that is tuned.

APR
EPL

I did business with both and both supplied me with multiple files on multiple ECU's. See the for sale ad in the classifieds where the gentleman is selling my old 605 kit with the 93 and 100 octane ECU's. I can't try to explain why they chose to do that, VAST said in their case it was a licensing issue, not that I was going to sell my ECU. It wasn't a deal breaker, merely a disappointment after dealing with two tuners that did allow me to have multiple ECU's.

[RusS4]

FWIW, I'm posting this as a customer - not as a moderator.

I've read through this and the other threads and it seems that you really like to complain. I do too when frustrated so I can relate. There are a few valid points in there but so much of that is just whining. I've had far worse dealings with companies and continue to do so on a regular basis because things don't always go as planned. My first drill sergeant's advice rings true - suck it up and move on. I do wonder, if EPL was so awesome, why pull out brand new turbos and start over? I'm sure there is a reasonable explanation but a little spool time can't be it, there just isn't enough difference between the setups. Did something happen with EPL and/or Tial?

I have an ecu at VAST for the FrankenTurbo S4 build I'm doing now. I filled out the tuning sheet and expect the ecu programming to follow it. If not, they will fix it. If it followed the sheet and I messed something up then it is my fault. It asked about all the hardware and I entered model numbers for the MAF and other parts to be certain I had done my due diligence. Did you do the same?

I've had a few dealings with Vast and they've been great. Email and phone communication have been excellent with both me and the client I'm building the car for. I've sent people there that dropped my name and they were treated very well and the same goes for those that approached them without this connection. This is why I chose to go with them.

As far as shipping goes, I've done similar with my clients. I usually charge for anything that isn't my responsibility but all too often I'll just cover it and not even mention it. Some have been charged later and asked why and I had no compunctions about informing them that they had gotten favors and after too many I had to charge to balance things out.

Businesses do experience growing pains. Mine is the same - some days I've got nothing at all while other times, like now, there are 22 projects backed up. So some days I always answer the phone and some I don't because it steals too much time from projects. Life ain't always easy. You asked how a tuner can weld manifolds, probably because he isn't doing both at once for 40 hours a week. Tune when the ecu comes in and weld when that is slow. It isn't like the pipes are going to walk away while he is on the computer.

I could start a rant thread about how I only got one exhaust gasket and one coolant temp sensor and didn't get the intake manifold gaskets I asked about but in the end it is my own dumb ass fault for not checking the invoice before paying and not doing a complete inventory of all the parts before starting the build. I contacted them saying as much and they are collecting all the other pieces. If I had checked the invoice it wouldn't have happened but at the most we can share the blame for that one. In the end I just couldn't care less about that because it doesn't slow the project down. I also spread those inquiries over several emails and calls which isn't the easiest or clearest way to communicate. Again, my dumb ass did it.

There are some things in your list that don't add up. How did it go that many revisions before the hardware config was known? I would have filled out another tune sheet and put it in the box with the ecu each time. That way they open it up and all the info is in one place.

I don't understand how you thought you could have programs on multiple ecus without paying for addition tunes. If they tuned 3 ecus for one price and then two were sold they wouldn't be protected from that theft and the seller would end up with a free tune. That doesn't sound good from a business perspective. It only makes sense to charge for each ecu that is tuned.

Im sure you wont have any problems with VAST. Your close to them(meaning you can go straight to the shop with any issues) and your a moderator on AZ(one of the primary sites their customers go to).

[FlyboyS4]

The only thing i really read that i was shocked at was he was complaining about $4 over charged for shipping! who gives a shit, it's $4

The dollar amount is not the issue. The issue is when a business tells you that you are being charged exactly what it costs to ship an item, when that is not true. I'm giving the employee at VAST the benefit of the doubt and believe it was simple laziness, assuming the charge was the same. But if they are careless in determining what to bill a customer, how much attention to detail do they give to tuning your car?

[P.I.G.]

Jeff,

YOU are the problem, my friend. You always have been. I've been aware of your shenanigans since I've started in this S4 community over 10 years ago.

You haven't changed, you never will. You've frustrated EVERY tuner to no end. We/I/VAST Tried to take care of you, but you are not the kind of person that will ever be satisfied by anyone.

And thanks for stirring the pot, thanks for bringing other "VAST Haters" out. I'm sure you and your hate crew have all sorts of dirt that you fabricated out of your own remorse for whatever decisions you've all made.

VAST hasn't done you wrong, hasn't done your crew of QuattroWackjobs or WAY Out of Tact fan boys any wrong. You're just one of those people that will NEVER be happy and you may not be able to work with any tuner until you get a reality check. We're done with you, We've BEEN done with you and you obviously do not value your time, as you continue to ramble on about something stemming from a single shipping fee for a tune that has been more than sufficient, especially for the money you spent.

I have one regret, keeping you on as a customer and trying to keep you happy, despite your off-base threats.

I'm sure you've started crap even before this, case in point:

"

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=1392176

Hi Jeff,
I can understand your position, but mine is this:

We are short staffed, I am working to the best of my ability and we are
very close. I can either work vigorously on production of hoods, or
return emails to people who are paranoid about delivery of a new
product. You have been informed and updated about the status of the
hoods by the group purchase organizer and for some reason this isn't
good enough?

With your level of patience, and the fact that you are threatening a
cancellation I've decided to nip it in the bud and drop you from the
list.

Regards,
Todd Candey
Vortrag Motorsports

jeff.jones wrote:

> I am part of the group buy that has ordered S4 vented
> hoods from you. I was expecting the product to be
> shipped in February. I understand through the organizer
> of this group purchase that there have been some
> delays.
>
> I am concerned about your lack of effort shown toward
> keeping your customers informed of your progress on the
> project. Originally we had been told to expect updates
> and pictures of the process as these hoods went through
> the development process. I have not received any
> information at all from Vortrag on the progress of this
> product.
>
> I understand and accept that there may be some delays in
> producing a new product like this. I cannot accept a
> two month delay in delivery without any explanation.
> Receiving word of the status of progress through someone
> other than Vortrag is not satisfactory. I want to hear
> from you or I will be cancelling my order.
>
> Jeff Jones

"

[infinkc]

<** grabs some popcorn.

[Timtheguru]

<** grabs some popcorn.

Grr, I'm out of popcorn...

[WillRaceForBeer]

Very few conclusive points against VAST here in this thread. Sounds like a lot of nitpicking / differences in expectations between vendor and customer. I've only dealt with VAST recently, but for what it's worth to those who don't know VAST, They've been great in my dealings with them. I spoke with Mike personally the other day, great guy... spent 20 minutes on the phone helping me with a few troubleshooting issues and ended up getting the info I needed.

[DanS4]

I had no such thing. At the start of process my Mods list was requested via email and I sent back what I had. That was the last time any modifications were spoken of aside from the MBC after the tuning started, but there was no discussion of the manner in which the MBC was installed. That sheet sounds like a great way to avoid the problems I encountered, I wish it had been part of the process for me.



APR
EPL

I did business with both and both supplied me with multiple files on multiple ECU's. See the for sale ad in the classifieds where the gentleman is selling my old 605 kit with the 93 and 100 octane ECU's. I can't try to explain why they chose to do that, VAST said in their case it was a licensing issue, not that I was going to sell my ECU. It wasn't a deal breaker, merely a disappointment after dealing with two tuners that did allow me to have multiple ECU's.


I don't know what to say, but it sucks.


I filled out this said sheet.


APR? Cruise control to change tunes?

[zillarob]

Hey Fly, any chance you could post up some of the logs? Just curious how it was doing.

[zillarob]

6. There are no refunds on any tune developed and flashed on an engine computer, regardless of its functionality.

Might want to amend this one. lol

[Silence]

Jeff,

YOU are the problem, my friend. You always have been. I've been aware of your shenanigans since I've started in this S4 community over 10 years ago.

You haven't changed, you never will. You've frustrated EVERY tuner to no end. We/I/VAST Tried to take care of you, but you are not the kind of person that will ever be satisfied by anyone.

And thanks for stirring the pot, thanks for bringing other "VAST Haters" out. I'm sure you and your hate crew have all sorts of dirt that you fabricated out of your own remorse for whatever decisions you've all made.

VAST hasn't done you wrong, hasn't done your crew of QuattroWackjobs or WAY Out of Tact fan boys any wrong. You're just one of those people that will NEVER be happy and you may not be able to work with any tuner until you get a reality check. We're done with you, We've BEEN done with you and you obviously do not value your time, as you continue to ramble on about something stemming from a single shipping fee for a tune that has been more than sufficient, especially for the money you spent.

I have one regret, keeping you on as a customer and trying to keep you happy, despite your off-base threats.

I'm sure you've started crap even before this, case in point:

"

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=1392176

Hi Jeff,
I can understand your position, but mine is this:

We are short staffed, I am working to the best of my ability and we are
very close. I can either work vigorously on production of hoods, or
return emails to people who are paranoid about delivery of a new
product. You have been informed and updated about the status of the
hoods by the group purchase organizer and for some reason this isn't
good enough?

With your level of patience, and the fact that you are threatening a
cancellation I've decided to nip it in the bud and drop you from the
list.

Regards,
Todd Candey
Vortrag Motorsports

jeff.jones wrote:

> I am part of the group buy that has ordered S4 vented
> hoods from you. I was expecting the product to be
> shipped in February. I understand through the organizer
> of this group purchase that there have been some
> delays.
>
> I am concerned about your lack of effort shown toward
> keeping your customers informed of your progress on the
> project. Originally we had been told to expect updates
> and pictures of the process as these hoods went through
> the development process. I have not received any
> information at all from Vortrag on the progress of this
> product.
>
> I understand and accept that there may be some delays in
> producing a new product like this. I cannot accept a
> two month delay in delivery without any explanation.
> Receiving word of the status of progress through someone
> other than Vortrag is not satisfactory. I want to hear
> from you or I will be cancelling my order.
>
> Jeff Jones

"

Hmm..don't really why you brought up a Vortrag incident up from 10 years ago. From what I recall, Vortrag had a very poor reputation, and I don't think asking for updates after 2 months is all that bad. Just my point of view from the outside.

[Danza]

1. Any tuning sold to an end user is allowed a base file with unlimited revisions until VAST concludes it is best suited for intended use at our own discretion. We typically have a vehicle dialed in very closely within 1-3 attempts
[/B]

I'm not sure if you meant it to say this, but the above comment says the customer is not entitled to ANY custom tuning aka VAST can flash the ecu based on their hardware configuration, return the ECU, then say that the vehicle is tuned to a condition best suited for it's intended use.

It seems that you mean to guaruntee 3 tunes/revisions but the above policy does not state this.

I just purchased items (not tuning) from VAST yesterday, but I would request the above policy be clarified as stated before I considered utilizing VAST tuning services.

Just my input. I'll stay out of the personal dispute as I don't know anything about it, I hope each party has put all facts on the table

[VAST]

I just purchased items (not tuning) from VAST yesterday, but I would request the above policy be clarified as stated before I considered utilizing VAST tuning services.

Ian, I changed the number 1 a bit to be better understood. As the customer when you fill out the tuning sheet you are absolutely allowed to put in requests such as low boost, aggressive boost/timing, etc. Custom tuning enables this and I'm sorry it wasn't worded as such.. The thing that people aren't seeing clear is a revision doesn't equal our attempts to make your tune spot on. A revision is when you say MBC in the beginning, so we tune you for that, then you say, N75 now. Revision. Then down the road you add water/methanol injection. Revision. Doesn't mean that those "revisions" only get one shot, we will unlimited tune it until its spot on! Sometimes its easier to convey things over the phone than on the computer as well all know.

[Danza]

Makes sense, thanks for the clarification. Hope my comment was taken as being constructive.

[Evilevo]

Ian, I changed the number 1 a bit to be better understood. As the customer when you fill out the tuning sheet you are absolutely allowed to put in requests such as low boost, aggressive boost/timing, etc. Custom tuning enables this and I'm sorry it wasn't worded as such.. The thing that people aren't seeing clear is a revision doesn't equal our attempts to make your tune spot on. A revision is when you say MBC in the beginning, so we tune you for that, then you say, N75 now. Revision. Then down the road you add water/methanol injection. Revision. Doesn't mean that those "revisions" only get one shot, we will unlimited tune it until its spot on! Sometimes its easier to convey things over the phone than on the computer as well all know.

You say that. But my car had 14 files and still wasn't perfect, yet you wanted me to pay you more to fix your inadequacy. Might not want to guarantee something when you aren't going to back it up.

And don't go say the tune was complete, because the car wasn't.

[VAST]

Makes sense, thanks for the clarification. Hope my comment was taken as being constructive.

Certainly [up]


.

Some cars require hands on dyno time. It is unfortunate that you wouldn't leave the car with us just a few extra weeks to get down to the dyno. Your car left with way fewer miles than we usually let go, but since you surprised us with your visit to take the car home during a spring break of yours.

You've already had your comments in a thread, instead of turning this onto you once again lets leave things how it is. We're happy that the engine we re-built is still running the way it is.

Thanks,

[AudiA4_20T]

VAST, do you plan on expanding your tuning force? It seems the customer rate is going up exponentially and one or two tuners can't do everything. VAST used to be a very "hands-on" shop where no customer left unhappy, but it seems like with the amount of customers vs. the amount of workers you bit off more than you can chew?

[spokismB5S4]

I think with all the time this guy has on his hands to type up multiple threads and replies daily during a normal workday for most people, he should self tune this bad boy to perfection. I don't think anyone will meet his expectations but himself.. Someone with as much knowledge as him should be downloading NefMoto's tuning software and going to town. [race] [up]

you need to chill dude.

[littleredwagen]

Jeff,

YOU are the problem, my friend. You always have been. I've been aware of your shenanigans since I've started in this S4 community over 10 years ago.

You haven't changed, you never will. You've frustrated EVERY tuner to no end. We/I/VAST Tried to take care of you, but you are not the kind of person that will ever be satisfied by anyone.

And thanks for stirring the pot, thanks for bringing other "VAST Haters" out. I'm sure you and your hate crew have all sorts of dirt that you fabricated out of your own remorse for whatever decisions you've all made.

VAST hasn't done you wrong, hasn't done your crew of QuattroWackjobs or WAY Out of Tact fan boys any wrong. You're just one of those people that will NEVER be happy and you may not be able to work with any tuner until you get a reality check. We're done with you, We've BEEN done with you and you obviously do not value your time, as you continue to ramble on about something stemming from a single shipping fee for a tune that has been more than sufficient, especially for the money you spent.

I have one regret, keeping you on as a customer and trying to keep you happy, despite your off-base threats.

I'm sure you've started crap even before this, case in point:

"

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=1392176

Hi Jeff,
I can understand your position, but mine is this:

We are short staffed, I am working to the best of my ability and we are
very close. I can either work vigorously on production of hoods, or
return emails to people who are paranoid about delivery of a new
product. You have been informed and updated about the status of the
hoods by the group purchase organizer and for some reason this isn't
good enough?

With your level of patience, and the fact that you are threatening a
cancellation I've decided to nip it in the bud and drop you from the
list.

Regards,
Todd Candey
Vortrag Motorsports

jeff.jones wrote:

> I am part of the group buy that has ordered S4 vented
> hoods from you. I was expecting the product to be
> shipped in February. I understand through the organizer
> of this group purchase that there have been some
> delays.
>
> I am concerned about your lack of effort shown toward
> keeping your customers informed of your progress on the
> project. Originally we had been told to expect updates
> and pictures of the process as these hoods went through
> the development process. I have not received any
> information at all from Vortrag on the progress of this
> product.
>
> I understand and accept that there may be some delays in
> producing a new product like this. I cannot accept a
> two month delay in delivery without any explanation.
> Receiving word of the status of progress through someone
> other than Vortrag is not satisfactory. I want to hear
> from you or I will be cancelling my order.
>
> Jeff Jones

"

Ok this is the wrong approach if you want to reassure other consumers who are on the outside, who may have not made up their mind. I also appreciated being insulted by employee or owner of a company because I am more active on quattroworld. I always like both sides of the story, but this is unacceptable in any manor. If this the treatment one "can" experience at Vast
I will pass and keep my money.

[getslideways]

shipping charges are just one part of business that arn't fun for anyone. If it was a drastic difference of $10 or something i may be a little put off, but a difference of $4 could be for packaging and shipping materials as well as to cover an employee's time to print shipping labels, packing the item safely, print invoices, seal it it up, etc. Unfortunately all of those things are needed, and someone has to do them, and someone has to be paid to do them. Ink isn't free, paper isn't free, tape isn't free, and labor isnt free... but it would be great if it was!

Most customers lose sight of that. Where i work if the customer pays us $10 to ship something, we dont get that $10, its goes immediately to a 3rd party (usps, ups, etc.) and goes into the materials used to ship that item (boxes, bubblewrap, labels, invoices, tape, labor), if you calculate it out (which i did on a reeeeeeally slow day once lol) we LOSE money everytime we ship something, but if we charged the real cost of doing it, it would start to LOOK inflated, since all of the other expenses associated with getting that package from me to you are often not considered by the customer, which is a common oversight and understandable.

Like i say, unfortunately, shipping is not a fun subject for anyone

[FlyboyS4]

YOU are the problem, my friend. You always have been. I've been aware of your shenanigans since I've started in this S4 community over 10 years ago.

You haven't changed, you never will. You've frustrated EVERY tuner to no end. We/I/VAST Tried to take care of you, but you are not the kind of person that will ever be satisfied by anyone.

And thanks for stirring the pot, thanks for bringing other "VAST Haters" out. I'm sure you and your hate crew have all sorts of dirt that you fabricated out of your own remorse for whatever decisions you've all made.

You are suggesting that somehow you have insight into my motives and intentions, the experiences of "EVERY" tuner, as well as the actions of the "hate crew", a group of people that it is similarly unlikely you actually have any understanding of.


VAST hasn't done you wrong, hasn't done your crew of QuattroWackjobs or WAY Out of Tact fan boys any wrong.

VAST defaulted on the contract and kept all of my money. What's the point of denigrating people on other enthusiast forums who have no part in the matter?


We're done with you, We've BEEN done with you

I don't see how that attitude toward your customers is beneficial. Defaulting on a contract and keeping a customers money is a serious matter.


I have one regret, keeping you on as a customer and trying to keep you happy, despite your off-base threats.

That's hypocritical. Early into it I raised some concerns and suggested that parting ways before we got going too far would probably be best for both parties. You'd done nothing but put the initial file onto the ECU at that point. I was told once that first file went onto the ECU no refund was possible so in the words of another member, I sucked it up and pressed on.

Mike, your ops managers conduct was appalling. I'm sad to see that it is a reflection of the business ownership as well. I'm not going to engage you any further in unproductive name calling. I'd much rather stick to the FACTS since that is really what this is about. Your business took action you apparently felt was justified, defend the facts and drop the distracting personal attacks. If there is conduct of mine that you felt warranted breaking your contract let me hear it so I can respond. I'll do the same for anybody reading this post that asks legitimate questions.

It seems clear to me that when I went onto another private forum to express some of my frustrations with working with your company you decided that was justification to leave me with an unfinished product, the broken contract, and none of my money back.

Here are my facts to back that up; on Friday when I called your company to pay for the shipping of the ECU that was enroute to me there was nothing said about the revision that I was getting was the last. It was business as usual at that point. I asked about applying the costs that I paid for the mis-programmed revision 4 to the return costs of rev 5 and the one I was to get later that day, rev 6. I was told no, that the customer would always pay for the shipping charges even if VAST made a mistake with the item. Flabbergasted that a business would conduct itself that way I went onto the private forum to say so.

The following day your ops manager calls me at home and rails me about 'bashing' your company. Oddly enough when I asked for written confirmation of your companies intentions towards me I was informed that it was because I was posting "factual statements" bashing you. Comment, if you find facts about your businesses conduct to be bashing the business, maybe it is time to change the way you do business.

I was told I would have to pay for future revisions to the software. And after making sure I understood exactly what was going on I was informed your business was completely through with me, no more support at all, and the future support I had bought would not be honored.

I'm open to questions.

[onemoremile]

I've talked to the businesses involved and it shed a lot of light on this issue. Jeff, I sincerely hope that you get that perfect tune and it really sounds like you are the perfect candidate for self tuning. Your meticulous approach and willingness to invest time should get you one of the most solid tunes out there.

FWIW, outside of the overactive interactions, the people I talked to had some very nice things to say about you, your logging skills, and your contribution to the community. I wish you the best and if I can help out in any way just send me a PM.




In regards to another post above: I'm an 8 hour round trip from Vast which means it is still as quick and easy to overnight an ECU as it is to drive down and harass them personally (I need a paintball gun for my next visit [evilsmile]). Being a mod doesn't really do much for me. My cars are still potential pains-in-the-asses and all of the other issues can still show up. I have a far more laid back nature than the OP but the client I'm building the car for does not. He picks nits like they are the only thing in the world. If I were to lift his hood and use an awl to make an inch long scratch on the underside he would obsess about that hidden imperfection until he painted the whole car. Like I said, if I can help mediate things or smooth out some issues then just let me know. I can't promise anything but making a few phone calls like that has to help the community as a whole.

-jim

[NOTORIOUS VR]

I've talked to the businesses involved and it shed a lot of light on this issue. Jeff, I sincerely hope that you get that perfect tune and it really sounds like you are the perfect candidate for self tuning. Your meticulous approach and willingness to invest time should get you one of the most solid tunes out there.

Why does everyone keep mentioning self-tuning? Do you think someone like him would have his car tuned by the pros if he thought he could get equal results as quickly as an assumed pro tuner should be able to? No matter how good you are, there is a lot involved in tuning your own car. Someone like VAST by selling their fueling it should be able to get results a lot quicker since they're tuning hardware they know and sell to the customer.

So far the only people that have suggested Flyboy to tune his own are are the people that have never tuned anything. Think about that.

Obviously he has his reasons for not self-tuning his car. And in the end, why should he need to for this cookie-cutter modified motor. There is nothing out of the ordinary about it. It shouldn't have taken 5 times to send the ECU back and forth for him to get a somewhat base file that actually made the car run properly either.


I have a far more laid back nature than the OP

If you knew how to read logs properly and were able to give proper insight on how your car/tune is performing, would you? Most people don't know what to do with ECUx, the templates or hell even have ECUx, and 90% of the ones that do just log blindly and email the file back to the tuner without ever knowing what is exactly going on.

[awd2ks4]

This thread probably could have been avoided if u didn't shut his other thread down. I really hate when you moderators do that.

[AMC]

This thread probably could have been avoided if u didn't shut his other thread down. I really hate when you moderators do that.

yea this bugs me when mods do that.. i just read his thread and he said nothing to cause the thread to shut down? i say u guys reopen that one, its his build thread cause that just always gives us the assumption that mods/ admin will always take the paying advertisers side and shut down a members thread. he may be whining on a couple things but some things are something anyone would complain about where its not the buyers fault. it seems like vast has good rep with the majority of customers but they have names in a hat they they pick out and royally fuck. cause i hear from some people that they were fully impressed and satisfied by VASTs tune or whatnot then i hear a person got bent over backwards and lubed up. there is no in between its either really good service or complete fucking.

[B72.0tsline]

the customer would always pay for the shipping charges even if VAST made a mistake with the item.

thats messed up, thats not a good customer service. you mess up and your customer have to pay shipping? hello, common sense? shouldnt even have to think about this one.

no one really knows what happens between the op and VAST. you always gonna have two side storys. we all have different judgements, so some are going to think VAST is right on this one and some are going to go with the op.

let me put it in this way. VAST had put their new policies on after the op had post this thread, I think that says it all. you can have excuses on "oh the old policy wasnt clear enough and such" but then that means you mess up in the first place, because you mislead or cost confusions to your customers.

if you mess up you admit it and give the money back to the customer or at least some refund or discount towards the future. at least thats how i do my business with customers. just my .02

[getslideways]

as a prof. once told me, there are 3 sides to every story: "yours, theirs, and the truth and never shall any of them intertwine perfectly" lol

hope everything works out for all parties involved, as I am sure many of us have found ourselves on BOTH sides of the argument at one time or another

[NishadJoshi]

Wow... it looks like VAST should've put a little more effort towards customer service/satisfaction with this particular customer, and the OP should've bailed when he noticed shit starting to get sketch. Not taking any one side here, I'm just a little shocked that a reputable shop I'm planning on going with in the future is still getting a bad name... in for lulz.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Wow... it looks like VAST should've put a little more effort towards customer service/satisfaction with this particular customer, and the OP should've bailed when he noticed shit starting to get sketch. Not taking any one side here, I'm just a little shocked that a reputable shop I'm planning on going with in the future is still getting a bad name... in for lulz.

It seems he tried to "bail" more then once, but was told it was not an option after the first tune was loaded on the ECU already.

[wan2play]

dayum, yo ass got defaulted like the Obama administration defaulting on the debt.

I dont understand though...your car isnt running properly and its jsut a ko4 car...No other variables liek 2.8 heads or cams to affect the tuning?

[USAF Long]

Hmm..don't really why you brought up a Vortrag incident up from 10 years ago. From what I recall, Vortrag had a very poor reputation, and I don't think asking for updates after 2 months is all that bad. Just my point of view from the outside.

If someone has my money and they go two months past the scheduled delivery date, and I haven't received a product or a believable excuse as to why there is a delay, I would be irate too.

[AudiSportB5S4]

dayum, yo ass got defaulted like the Obama administration defaulting on the debt.

I dont understand though...your car isnt running properly and its jsut a ko4 car...No other variables liek 2.8 heads or cams to affect the tuning?

He isn't posting up logs because the car is in good shape... It's just him reacting to communication from VAST which may have been out of line, but it's not like he's limping this car around town or missing out on a ton of HP. He has said in some place I just don't know where that the revision was pretty damn good and almost near where he wanted the car.

[DiscoPotato]

It's pretty obvious he's doing it out of frustration, not because he has nothing better to do. Maybe he had the day off today. Who knows and, more to the point, why is it any of your business?

Some of the items on the above list could be certainly be considered whining or nit picking by the customer, but others are just flat out inexcusable and/or unprofessional on VAST's part.


I have never had any problems with you and most of the time I agree and respect what you say but im sorry just because you are on VAST's dick dosent mean they are always right. Your first sentence is fucking retarded. I guess ppl cant serve 20+ years in the military and retire and have time on their hands to work on hobbies. You always come in on topics that are towards VAST(which I understand because you are a remote tuner/seller/whatever the fuck you want to call it) and defend but you are wrong in this case. I have personally never had any problems with VAST and think they are a good company but Jeff was done wrong plain and simple. Your comments about how none of the other tuners will even tune him and he complains are just plain lame and incorrect. Jeff is a stand up guy and paid good hard earned money and expected a great tune which he STILL hasent gotten.



yea this bugs me when mods do that.. i just read his thread and he said nothing to cause the thread to shut down? i say u guys reopen that one, its his build thread cause that just always gives us the assumption that mods/ admin will always take the paying advertisers side and shut down a members thread. he may be whining on a couple things but some things are something anyone would complain about where its not the buyers fault. it seems like vast has good rep with the majority of customers but they have names in a hat they they pick out and royally fuck. cause i hear from some people that they were fully impressed and satisfied by VASTs tune or whatnot then i hear a person got bent over backwards and lubed up. there is no in between its either really good service or complete fucking.



I do agree.

[FlyboyS4]

yea this bugs me when mods do that.. i just read his thread and he said nothing to cause the thread to shut down? i say u guys reopen that one, its his build thread cause that just always gives us the assumption that mods/ admin will always take the paying advertisers side and shut down a members thread. he may be whining on a couple things but some things are something anyone would complain about where its not the buyers fault. it seems like vast has good rep with the majority of customers but they have names in a hat they they pick out and royally fuck. cause i hear from some people that they were fully impressed and satisfied by VASTs tune or whatnot then i hear a person got bent over backwards and lubed up. there is no in between its either really good service or complete fucking.

My last post in my original thread was responded to by VAST's operations manager using a non-vendor account name. That post is below. One of the other vendor parties that he spoke on behalf of pointed out that his statement about them was false, and that forum rules required his use of a vendor account. Very shortly thereafter his post was removed and the thread locked.

For those who missed it:


Jeff Started off his relationship with VAST with the an email to Mike that stated “This tune will be heavily scrutinized by myself & others”.

For most of you who do know Mike, know that an email like this is totally uncalled for.

At this point we (VAST) still looked past the condescending tone of the email & decided to help him with his tune. Jason & Mike both explained to Jeff that if he was going to be scrutinizing the tune he might want to go with a custom tune. Jeff ignored Mike’s recommendation & insisted on purchasing a base tune. Jeff also disregarded Mikes recommendation to work with one of our retailers so that the unit could be flashed, once more Jeff refused Mike’s suggestion. Mike told him if he did not want to go the route of dealing with a dealer he would have to pay for shipping his ECU every time he wanted a revision.

I will not go in to detail about every version of the tune; this thread is already too long. Jeff omits that his car had a few mechanical issues when he received his first tune & he also fails to mention the countless hours we helped him with tech support on his turbo installation that we did not sell him.

After his 3rd revision Jeff told one of our suppliers that he was more then happy with the tune but he is going to send it back in to VAST any way.

The logs he posted on this thread show a solid tune & many of you praised the tune also. Jeff how ever insisted on having Mike revise the tune 3 more times.

Jeff also fails to mention again how rude he treated Jason on a near daily basis, or that he has gone out of his way to throw VAST under the bus on other forums. After all the help we have supplied him with, not even a thank you but instead constant bitching about VAST.

What incentive do we have to help him any longer? He has already bad mouthed us up & down not to mention it seems Jeff is more interested in playing games by sending the ECU back in over & over again even though the tune was complete. We do not have any reason to continue to help Jeff because he will never be satisfied.

I did call Jeff on Saturday after his WAYOT posting, at least I did not go out and try to drag Jeff’s name through the mud on a Forum. I am sorry if some people do not like the fact that I actually confront people either in person or on the phone. Not from behind a keyboard.

I am not the only one here who’s reputation proceeds them. Jeff has alienated 3 tuners now & has been through 3 different setups.

1.APR K04 Build: Complained about travel costs & demanded refunds from APR to the extent they basically threw money at him just to get rid of him. He also publicly complained that his name was not included in the Thank you to all the beta testers for their software update.

2. Tial & EPL: Once again he “scrutinized” the tune to the point that they no longer wanted to deal with him. He also pestered Tial (not the company he bought them from) to the point that they actually called Slappy D asking for to take care of the guy.

3.VAST Performance/ FT: this all stems from Jeff not taking the suggestions from one of the top guys in the business & complaining constantly about $10 in shipping

[Evilevo]

He isn't posting up logs because the car is in good shape... It's just him reacting to communication from VAST which may have been out of line, but it's not like he's limping this car around town or missing out on a ton of HP. He has said in some place I just don't know where that the revision was pretty damn good and almost near where he wanted the car.

I remember him posting logs and they were like 3.5 FATS which aren't very impressive. And FATS don't tell the whole story. Part throttle could be crap but WOT is decent.

[FlyboyS4]

He isn't posting up logs because the car is in good shape...

I don't mind if you or VAST post the logs from the final revision that I received on Friday.


It's just him reacting to communication from VAST which may have been out of line,

You don't need to read very many posts here by the offending party to determine that being out of line isn't in question.


He has said in some place I just don't know where that the revision was pretty damn good and almost near where he wanted the car.

Post the link, otherwise don't bother. There's a lot of email's I sent and posts I made that you can pull a sound bite from to spin this your way. Here's an example from an actual email I sent "The car is feeling good" and then the sentence that preceded it, "Just futzing around the block hasn't been such a bad thing, I'm breaking the turbo's in slowly, I may have reached 5 psi two or three times but that was about it. The car is feeling good, but it's been a couple months now since I drove it"


Tell me this, why should anybody here believe a word you are saying about me and my interaction with VAST? I do not know you, I never interacted with you, and by the things you are saying I believe you are being fed most of your information. Look at what you're writing "He isn't doing such and such because, he is doing such and such because, his car is performing this way, he has said these thing somewhere that I don't know" You know an awful lot about why I do things, so again, why should anybody here believe a word you are saying?

[mrpeterparker]

I just read this on QW...

The only thing i really read that i was shocked at was he was complaining about $4 over charged for shipping! who gives a shit, it's $4

eh? easy to say when it's not your money and you don't know the OPs circumstances. Bet you if you were starving and didn't have those $4 dollars to buy some mickeyD's you'd be missing it. actually, hell... if it's JUST $4 to you, send the OP $4 via paypal to prove a point?

[Kittrell]

VAST Performance Tuning Policies, 2011
9. VAST software licensing is only applicable to the original purchaser. If a vehicle is sold to another party, support for that tune is terminated. A relicensing fee and tuning support fee will be charged to treat that software as if it were purchased by the original end user. Fees start at $150 for relicensing and custom remapping starts at 50% of the retail cost.

This is a pretty shitty policy. You are charging a minimum of $150 for absolutely nothing at all. If someone purchases a car with a custom tune, they should be able to give you a ring, you update the contact information associated with the tune, and it's a done deal. Relicensing fee? Is that like the transport charge, storage surcharge, additional overcharge, and finder's fee?


Hey dipshit I did not replace Prince, Jason did. Get your facts straight. Also do you need some gas money?

You seem to know everything about me but I have no clue who the hell you are.

Keep up those hard key strokes, I hear the keyboard commandos are recruiting again.

I know nothing about you, and not much about VAST. But you are representing a company, even if this is your personal account, simply because people know where you work. You work for a performance shop and this is the enthusiast community. Every word that comes out of your mouth to this crowd reflects directly on VAST. If I was in the management at VAST I would be stuffing a sock in your mouth real quick. If you couldn't handle acting like an adult, and being professional, you would find yourself in the unemployment line.

[Danza]

This is a pretty shitty policy. You are charging a minimum of $150 for absolutely nothing at all. If someone purchases a car with a custom tune, they should be able to give you a ring, you update the contact information associated with the tune, and it's a done deal. Relicensing fee? Is that like the transport charge, storage surcharge, additional overcharge, and finder's fee?


You're basically paying $150 to have the right to the discounted "retune" rates.

This should work out to be cheaper/better for the user in the long run assuming you didn't buy a work in progress. If you bought a work in progress...well...that's not really their fault.

It sounds weird, but it's actually better for the consumer I think

[wan2play]

Vast's work should speak for itself...I dont udnerstand this American thing about customer service...It gets blown out of proportion...WHo cares what some tool is posting up on the forums....Does it change the fact that VAst has built 100s of cars? NO. Sure every company in any industry has came up short on a project here and there. LEts burn them at the stake for it? I dont know the facts of this story but it sounds like they couldnt get the tune down...For some reason...I mean its a simple Ko4 tune, it should be easy, but either the hardware combo or some undiscovered internal issue might be preventing a dailed in tune. And an overbarring workload forced them to default...THey have probably spent so much extra time on it and its not fair to the other cutomers they have...They might have to hire some more help but who knows if they can afford to do so...THis is such a niche market it might be hard to do so.

[Aureus1]

IBTL!

Also...

Vast has done nothing but impress me and help me out with my FT build. Between the late nights with Mike and my local rep Rich revising my tune and Jason picking up the pieces of my order when Prince left you have surpassed my expectations as tuning company and as car guys.

Its too bad to see all this happen, but just know your reputation will live on with the cars you build and the people you help out!

- Joe C.

[Kittrell]

You're basically paying $150 to have the right to the discounted "retune" rates.

This should work out to be cheaper/better for the user in the long run assuming you didn't buy a work in progress. If you bought a work in progress...well...that's not really their fault.

It sounds weird, but it's actually better for the consumer I think

Call me old fashioned but I think that is something they should just get when acquiring a car with that tune. Think of it like a Goodridge ss line that is guaranteed for life. If you buy someone's Audi that is running these and a line fails, Goodridge will replace it. You don't have to pay for the privilege to use that warranty, because someone else already did.

[FlyboyS4]

They keep mentioning...PERFECT TUNE....What do they mean by that? Is your car running right? Are you peaking 22-23 and holding? Running rich/lean? Misfiring? Whats the deal here. POst some ECUx logs.

If "They" have kept mentioning that, it was done as a distraction from the facts of the matter. If you read my post where I covered each revision that has been made:

Shifting Gears / Revision Summary (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/430121-FlyboyS4-shifting-gears-TiAL-605-gt-FrankenTurbo-F4H?p=6637643&viewfull=1#post6637643)

you'll see that the revision they just sent to me was the very first NOT misaligned with my hardware, and was based on feedback datalogs. I'm not posting the results of that revision because VAST never saw any results of their changes they had made but declared the tune complete.

[ColinAndrews]

Call me old fashioned but I think that is something they should just get when acquiring a car with that tune. Think of it like a Goodridge ss line that is guaranteed for life. If you buy someone's Audi that is running these and a line fails, Goodridge will replace it. You don't have to pay for the privilege to use that warranty, because someone else already did.

Not all companies do that. Most companies only offer lifetime guarantees for the original owner. I inherited a set of stern adjustable control arms that failed on me shortly after buying the car and stern told me I was out of luck.

[ColinAndrews]

If "They" have kept mentioning that, it was done as a distraction from the facts of the matter. If you read my post where I covered each revision that has been made:

Shifting Gears / Revision Summary (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/430121-FlyboyS4-shifting-gears-TiAL-605-gt-FrankenTurbo-F4H?p=6637643&viewfull=1#post6637643)

you'll see that the revision they just sent to me was the very first NOT misaligned with my hardware, and was based on feedback datalogs. I'm not posting the results of that revision because VAST never saw any results of their changes they had made but declared the tune complete.

So hold on, does the current tune you have on your car work properly? Are you satisfied with it? It sounds like you're not posting logs of it because it actually is workig correctly. If it's working properly, what does it matter if they told you that you can't have it revised anymore?

I'm not excusing a whole bunch of their other behaviour, but if the tune is now working properly, then there isn't much more reason to pursue this.

Post up the logs, backup your position.

[Kittrell]

Not all companies do that. Most companies only offer lifetime guarantees for the original owner. I inherited a set of stern adjustable control arms that failed on me shortly after buying the car and stern told me I was out of luck.

Like I said, call me old fashioned, but thats a crappy business practice.

[AudiTechS4]

So hold on, does the current tune you have on your car work properly? Are you satisfied with it? It sounds like you're not posting logs of it because it actually is workig correctly. If it's working properly, what does it matter if they told you that you can't have it revised anymore?

I'm not excusing a whole bunch of their other behaviour, but if the tune is now working properly, then there isn't much more reason to pursue this.

Post up the logs, backup your position.

If you would just read its all answered. the last file they sent him was for his actual hardware i.e no mbc. thats where it ended. no logs were sent back to analyse

[Anthony]

Merged, cleaned-up (for the most part), and re-opened so that the OP can continue to update his build.

Guys, let's please keep things civil in here so that this thread can remain open.

Thanks!

[Gumby]

thanks Anth.

[70 eliminator]

after reading this thread its easy to get worried

well i am the "prowd owner" =new owner of a transfered liscense vast tune and will be soon undertaking the franken turbo instal and getting remote tuned to 7300 ft .

but i will remain un biased so far i have been happy with vast.
and i will be stepping into it with out pre concieved notions
and i guess i can post how my customer experiance with vast goes.

so far they transfered the lisence and sent me the customer data and request sheet.

the only mis understanding so far has been that the prior owner never used a single revision so i thought i had 3 credits in the machine but it seems that might not be true.

if i ever get the mechanical work done i will post progress and hopefully dynos when it is all said and done.

[Vinchenzo51]

well i am the prowd owner of a transfered liscense vast tune and...

They reopened this thread so FlyboyS4 can continue documenting his build. Don't turn this back into a pissing contest.

How about some updates Fly? And pics of course [up]

[70 eliminator]

i am following this thread closely so i can avoid problems . there is no penis measuring going on.
and a am not starting anything. i say prowd owner as in new owner .
simply stating i am in the same boat!!!! and i want to know how to row!!!
nobody wants more to have his car running perfect because it means mine will eventually too...

[FlyboyS4]

How about some updates

Only change has been that I've been talking with a couple of other tuners about completing the job. I'm going to scrap the VAST 90mm MAF housing in favor of EPL's 85mm housing. The MAF readings with the 605's/85mm housing seemed smoother to me than with this 90mm housing, maybe it was the turbo's, but since I'm not working with VAST any more not much reason to keep using their housing.

I tried disconnecting the N75 and just running a straight MBC set around 24 psi just to see what the turbo's would hold. I've heard some people talk about the boost level they hold around redline, but it always seems to be from a boost gauge, and higher than what I've recorded with the ZT-2 MAP sensor. I need to check a few parts out just to double check before I go saying anything about the top end on these FT's. I have concluded that in the summer temps the spool up does not seem any better than K04's.

[Evilevo]

You should just go back to EPL for tuning. They will get your car running right.

[DanS4]

Only change has been that I've been talking with a couple of other tuners about completing the job. I'm going to scrap the VAST 90mm MAF housing in favor of EPL's 85mm housing. The MAF readings with the 605's/85mm housing seemed smoother to me than with this 90mm housing, maybe it was the turbo's, but since I'm not working with VAST any more not much reason to keep using their housing.

I tried disconnecting the N75 and just running a straight MBC set around 24 psi just to see what the turbo's would hold. I've heard some people talk about the boost level they hold around redline, but it always seems to be from a boost gauge, and higher than what I've recorded with the ZT-2 MAP sensor. I need to check a few parts out just to double check before I go saying anything about the top end on these FT's. I have concluded that in the summer temps the spool up does not seem any better than K04's.


034 85mm MAF. good price

MAF (http://www.034motorsport.com/034efi-engine-management-engine-management-sensors-maf-housing-27t-hitachi-or-bosch-85mm-id-p-19891.html)

[topquarkpc]

any updates on your conversion???

[FlyboyS4]

Tuning has started again. This time I am going back to somebody I've had some experience with before, EPL. Pulled out the VAST 90mm intake and replaced it with a stock air filter, EPL MAF housing, and RS4 accordion. Have my ECU back from EPL with a low-boost, rich AFR, starter file. Definitely looking forward to getting this tuning completed.

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/images/epl_maf.jpg

[Jason:addict]

Nice to see this moving forward again; it will be nice to see turbo comparisons with realistic tunes behind them.

[Evilevo]

So glad you made the right choice

[Spooled1.8]

[up] [up] excited to see the results!

[AudiSportB5S4]

FLYBOY - When you say rich AFR, do you have a wideband in your car, or are you judging off your O2 voltages? I'd imagine with your extensive testing you'd have a wideband so I'm just curious. Best of luck, seriously. [up]


So glad you made the right choice

How glad? Like you can sleep better kind of thing? lol..

[Evilevo]

FLYBOY - When you say rich AFR, do you have a wideband in your car, or are you judging off your O2 voltages? I'd imagine with your extensive testing you'd have a wideband so I'm just curious. Best of luck, seriously. [up]



How glad? Like you can sleep better kind of thing? lol..

Slept wonderfully last night. Lol

[FlyboyS4]

FLYBOY - When you say rich AFR, do you have a wideband in your car, or are you judging off your O2 voltages? I'd imagine with your extensive testing you'd have a wideband so I'm just curious.

Yes, via a WB O2 sensor.


Best of luck, seriously. [up]

Really? After the unwarranted, patronizing remarks you've made about my situation with VAST? Pardon me if I don't take you as being sincere.

[AudiSportB5S4]

Slept wonderfully last night. Lol

So good to hear! haha..


Yes, via a WB O2 sensor.

Really? After the unwarranted, patronizing remarks you've made about my situation with VAST? Pardon me if I don't take you as being sincere.

Nice on the wideband, and take it as you will with the remarks. Your situation doesn't effect what I do every day so I'm saying, BEST OF LUCK hoping you get exactly what you want from the new tune. Take it, leave it, whatever. I'll look for updates when you're done..

[topquarkpc]

lol...
sounds like a bad break up with a child custody dilemma in between...
let's focus on the motto FATS...
good to hear you're moving forward...

[GramCracker]

Bump for updates!! Did you go up to EPL yet spin those rollers and make moar whorespowerz?!

[topquarkpc]

Bump for updates!! Did you go up to EPL yet spin those rollers and make moar whorespowerz?!

What he said...

[Hyphy]

Holy shit...I'm sorry, but who the fuck in their right mind would allow their employee's to come out on their personal accounts and bash (if you will) a customer?

Dude.....seriously? [o_o]

VAST - I've seen your work over this recent year, in which I've heard nothing but good reviews from a hardware stand point, but fuck - what the fuck is wrong with your standards regarding your business practice?

[duckncover182]

some kids have too much money... make up your mind, you obviously have nothing better to do except waste your parents money to fine tune your car..... sux to be you

[duckncover182]

eh? easy to say when it's not your money and you don't know the OPs circumstances. Bet you if you were starving and didn't have those $4 dollars to buy some mickeyD's you'd be missing it. actually, hell... if it's JUST $4 to you, send the OP $4 via paypal to prove a point?

you are an idiot. this is not the honda forums. you cant be a broke joke and drive and audi.... if this guy can afford an audi, then a stg 3 setup, then another stg 3 install with a new setup, he can afford the 4 bucks and should really reflect on how fucking lucky he is that mommy and daddy are paying for this

[TweetsS4Estate]

you are an idiot. this is not the honda forums. you cant be a broke joke and drive and audi.... if this guy can afford an audi, then a stg 3 setup, then another stg 3 install with a new setup, he can afford the 4 bucks and should really reflect on how fucking lucky he is that mommy and daddy are paying for this
No this isnt the Honda forums so please don't dirty up our threads with your thoughts that bring no benefit to the discussion at hand. His thread has been jacked enough by assholes that think what they have to say is useful when in fact it is useless.

[Hyphy]

you are an idiot. this is not the honda forums. you cant be a broke joke and drive and audi.... if this guy can afford an audi, then a stg 3 setup, then another stg 3 install with a new setup, he can afford the 4 bucks and should really reflect on how fucking lucky he is that mommy and daddy are paying

some kids have too much money... make up your mind, you obviously have nothing better to do except waste your parents money to fine tune your car..... sux to be you
So I'm going to presume you were born a tadpole and have been abducted from minute one? Wish I was you..

Anyway...keep us updated. [up]

[FlyboyS4]

The update on the tuning is that I've got things on hold while I sort out what the hardware configuration going forward will be. So nothing significant to report.

Since there's little of any substance to go over I'll pick a couple of entertainment value subjects in previous posts above to address. The first is the overcharging on the shipping that VAST did. I get a chuckle out of the people who interpret the issue as being me displeased with paying $4. That isn't the issue, the issue is when a company taking my money states I will be charged exactly what UPS charges them, when that is false. The issue is honesty and attention to detail, not 400 cents.

duckncover182, you're either confused or an imbecile. If your post wasn't derogatory towards others I might give you the benefit of the doubt with the first option, but taken as a whole I'm leaning toward the second. Care to explain how you came to the conclusion you have about me? I need a laugh.

[FlyboyS4]

Decided to go with 72# upon removing the VAST supplied parts (60# EV14's). The revised parts list now stands at:

Stock filter/EPL 85mm MAF housing/RS4 accordion)
RS4 Y-pipe
TiAL inlets
FrankenTurbo F4H's w/ K03 wastegates
ER IC's
APR Bipipe
034 phenolic spacers
72lb Bosch EV14's
N75
P/P ceramic coated exhaust manifolds
ASP 3" downpipes w/ hfc
Milltek 2.25" Superdual
EPL tuned ECU (93 octane)

[Matt Danger]

some kids have too much money... make up your mind, you obviously have nothing better to do except waste your parents money to fine tune your car..... sux to be you

Post in the wrong browser tab?

[jibberjive]

Does EPL go with their big MAF for K04 setups now, or do they use the Hitachi MAF element in a bigger housing?

[Evilevo]

Does EPL go with their big MAF for K04 setups now, or do they use the Hitachi MAF element in a bigger housing?

I know Tony was talking about that because of how much better and more precise that MAF is, but I don't think he is doing it yet.

[Jason:addict]

Does EPL go with their big MAF for K04 setups now, or do they use the Hitachi MAF element in a bigger housing?

K04's are incapable of maxing out the drop-in Hitachi sensor housing, so it's highly unlikely anything but the standard EPL housing will be used on any build that's 500whp or less.

[FlyboyS4]

72lb injectors installed, new base file loaded and running.

[jibberjive]

K04's are incapable of maxing out the drop-in Hitachi sensor housing, so it's highly unlikely anything but the standard EPL housing will be used on any build that's 500whp or less.I know, I was thinking maybe for ease of having a single universal sensor that they use on everything, but it makes sense that they wouldn't throw in an extra couple hundred bucks for a sensor that's not necessarily needed.

[FlyboyS4]

Have the boost pretty well set, now turning to cleaning up the AFR.

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/Oct2011/3rd_gear_boost_rise.gif

[TweetsS4Estate]

Have the boost pretty well set, now turning to cleaning up the AFR.

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/Oct2011/3rd_gear_boost_rise.gif
Finally someone wants to see how much power these turbos can make! Can you post wg duty cycle

[FlyboyS4]

Finally someone wants to see how much power these turbos can make! Can you post wg duty cycle

It's a fixed WGDC at ~72%.

[jordon]

Have the boost pretty well set, now turning to cleaning up the AFR.

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/Oct2011/3rd_gear_boost_rise.gif

Sweet Jesus!!!

[FlyboyS4]

Smoothing the boost curve a little more. Going to bring that top end boost down. Doug says 24 psi or 400 g/s at red-line, but not both, I think I'm past that point now.

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/Oct2011/r5_boost.gif

[FlyboyS4]

Smoothing the boost curve a little more. Going to bring that top end boost down. Doug says 24 psi or 400 g/s at red-line, but not both, I think I'm past that point now.

http://www.myaudis4.com/frankenturbo/Oct2011/r5_boost.gif