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Naudi04
01-13-2010, 05:59 PM
Problem:
Cold start of engine (IE sitting for a day or so) when engine first fires a noise is audible for 1-3 seconds. Common sounds is a "rattling", "ringing", "clanking", or otherwise described as a horrible sound. Then the sounds is gone, warm starts, I will never hear this sound.

Audi's answer so far:
The camshaft adjustment is hydraulically actuated and controlled by the engine oil pressure. If the engine has been turned off for a long time, the oil pressure drops down and the oil partially flows back into the oil sump.

To ensure an efficient camshaft adjustment right after an engine cold start, the oil pressure inside the camshaft adjusters must be built up as fast as possible. During this time, a rattle or knocking noise may be noticeable.
This noise is normal at engine start and will last until the oil pressure is fully built up, which takes about 1-2 seconds.
Replacing the Camshaft Tensioner(s) or Camshaft Adjuster(s) will not eliminate this noise.

My Issue with this answer:

The car never did this new, it's progressively gotten worse over time. IE a part or parts are slowly going bad and should be repaired.

So after hearing my local Audi dealerships answer I called around to various mechanics who service Audi's. They all said, this is very common especially in the 2004 Audi S4. The problem is one or both timing chain tensioners or the camshaft adjusters are going bad, symptoms all lead to this. The bleed off ball valves are clogged and the tensioners lose oil pressure over time. THIS SHOULD BE A FIXABLE PROBLEM FROM AUDI, IE CPO OR APPP and they can't see why a dealership wouldn't fix this issue, it's a 15hr paid fix!

I have read over this entire post. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246077 and some of the information is relevant, but not specific to the question. This question isn't related to 100,000 mile cars needing regular service on a warn motor, this is related to even low mileage motors with a problem that SHOULD BE FIXED under warranty.

So this seems to be extremely common with 4.2L S4's from my recent searches on various forums online. Nobody posted the year of the vehicle described. I can't narrow down this to just 2004 models yet.

What I would like from the users of AudiZine is a extremely brief description of your cars year, mileage and if you hear the same noise or not? Have you gotten this fixed or looked into? CPO warranty covered, or Audi Pure Protection Plan Platinum covered?

I have a 2004 Audi S4, 33k miles, Yes I hear the ringing sound on cold startup, then it goes away.

Your time and information is greatly appreciated.

PS. I'm going to add everyone info to an excel chart.

Thanks for all your participation on this thread. I believe the results speak for them self. If this ever becomes an issue beyond 1-2 second startup, I imagine we'll all know about it.

- - -

I know the inside video is a little hard to hear with the clutter of the keys and whatever, but you can definitely hear it if you play it a few times.

Inside the car video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-RIEQHCKts

Outside the car video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNBrYkQyC0U

I condensed everyones posts into a Excel list so you can order results ascending/descending by post, year, mileage, symptoms(yes/no) and username.

AZ_Chain_Rattle_Results.xls (http://krisparker.com/audi/AZ_Chain_Rattle_Results.xls) It's a safe file.

Here is what the file looks like, a preview.

http://krisparker.com/audi/results_5_28_2010.jpg

DuncanC
01-13-2010, 06:21 PM
I have a 06, 85000km. After sitting for more than a day it makes a bad noise at startup... I don't like it. But I'm not dropping the motor to fix it. Despite all the talk about those rear timing chains nobody seems to have issues with them failing. At some point my motor will come out to do a Stg 3 clutch and LT headers (hell who knows, maybe twin turbo instead now, thanks JHM) but at this point I still am not sure if I will do any service on the timing chain, guides, or Tensioners. JHMs car has twice the miles on it as mine, gets driven hard, and as far as I know they haven't done anything about it. I'm sure it has the same noise, it seems to affect all of them after a certain number of miles.

Philosophyy
01-13-2010, 06:26 PM
What I would like from the users of AudiZine is a extremely brief description of your cars year, mileage and if you hear the same noise or not? Have you gotten this fixed or looked into? CPO warranty covered, or Audi Pure Protection Plan Platinum covered?


2006 S4, 34,000 miles, not a peep

2008 S4, 2000 miles, not a peep

boravr6
01-13-2010, 07:27 PM
04 S4 with 99,000 - 110,000 KM (the time i had it) YES
06 S4 with 55,000 KM not a peep

theedge111
01-13-2010, 07:30 PM
07 S4 32000km no sound

OHiDroS4
01-13-2010, 08:04 PM
2004 S4 65k miles YES...


I was told it was due to the tensioners as well.

Silver B6 S4
01-13-2010, 08:18 PM
04 S4, 39k miles YES.


It's not everyday though, car can sit for three days, and not make the noise (chain rattle).

Some mornings, after sitting for 12 hours, the chain rattles for 1 second.

CHECKERED
01-13-2010, 08:20 PM
2005 B6 S4 - 34K Yes

noise was from when I bought it with 34500 Miles, noise got worse after using ultra thick oil Mobil 1 15W-50 + one quart of Lucas engine oil stabilizer (the consistency of which is slight thicker then honey) at 44K miles, no issues thus far and noise is getting better: quieter, shorter and less noticeable.

Mrdeezy
01-13-2010, 09:16 PM
2004 s4 88K Yes,it has had this problem on cold mornings or after a few days.
If the weather is around 78 degrees it doesn't do it.
Usually i bump the starter a couple of times in the morning to build pressure and it doesn't make the noise.
Makes me want to get rid of the car a bit earlier than I planned on.
Anyone ever have to do this repair?

Hyde
01-13-2010, 09:44 PM
2005 B6. Just passed 70,000 miles. Noise? Yes.

Noticeable on cold days, or when car has been sitting for a couple days. Not normally heard during the summer. One thing I noted is that since I've gotten the oil changed at 70,000, the noise has slightly lessened.

CtS4Driver
01-13-2010, 09:59 PM
could somebody post a sound clip of this? my car makes noise at startup, but I was told it was valves, usually if I add a bit of oil the noise is lessened or not there at all...Not neccessarily a high pitched noise though...not sure if its what you're describing...

2004 S4 just passed 100k miles

notdisturbed
01-13-2010, 10:57 PM
2005 S4 w/52k miles - Yes

Some days are worse than others, and i can only attribute it to the variances in temperature.

justinperkins
01-13-2010, 11:16 PM
2005, 92k miles, yes I hear the sound

It has actually started occurring more frequently in the last 5k miles. I used to only hear it on cold startups but now I pretty much hear it every time I start it. Goes away instantly of course. I have a feeling my chain tensioners are dying on me.

Edit: Just read some other posts about it being temperature dependent. I hadn't even thought of that, might explain why I hear it more lately.

Naudi04
01-13-2010, 11:27 PM
The noise is not high pitch, it's more a clanking/ringing noise. Very noticeable from any other engine startup. Not a valve issue noise. If your noise continues after start we are talking about two different problems. This noise only lasts a second or two.

I will try to get some video of this from inside the car, and outside on a cold startup. Will be a few days since the car is still at Audi currently.

mano
01-13-2010, 11:37 PM
2005 S4 35000 miles, rattle on start-up for a few seconds and then gone. Told it was normal.

Naudi04
01-13-2010, 11:56 PM
2005 S4 35000 miles, rattle on start-up for a few seconds and then gone. Told it was normal.

Mano,
I would love to think this noise is "normal", as the dealerships are replying to many of us. As posted in my original explanation above.

So maybe at best a frequent occurrence so far from what I'm gathering. I really had no idea how many people had this same issue. The more posts and more information, I think we'll hopefully see a trend here. My goal is to get statistics together and see if it's just a year range, or mileage concern etc.

I've paid a lot of money over the years for premium "Warranties" and haven't seen it used yet unless it's something catastrophic, not upset about that. But I only have 33k miles on my car, it's been completely babied.

If a part is slowly wearing out or defective it should be fixed.

If the noise can be fixed by a few hundred dollars in parts it's definitely something that shouldn't be overlooked, or a head turn to look the other direction from what I've seen.

"Normal" in my eyes would be no sound at startup, like the car sounded prior to this issue arising. For some of us who have extremely low miles, we have barely even broken the motor in on these cars. Parts like a timing chain guide/tensioner etc shouldn't be showing signs of wear this early.

Mr. Goodwood
01-14-2010, 08:48 AM
2004 S4 67,500 miles Yes

Rattle noise right at startup for about a second.

Naudi04
01-14-2010, 01:59 PM
Picking the car up tomorrow from Audi, sadly nothing fixed. They have identified the issue, again I've been told it's a "non-issue" which is bs. They said they can't dive into this amount of work without knowing a solution, or they won't get paid.

Sounds to me like nobody has made a big enough stink about the problem to release a solution to this fix. AKA the solution is "leave it alone".

If anyone has had this issue solved by a part(s) fix, let me know!

Please continue to post your information about this issue. The only way this problem can be solved is if enough people chime in and contribute.

Has JHM or any other fabricators/mechanics dealt with this issue?

Mrdeezy
01-14-2010, 02:49 PM
if most 2004-2005 have this this problem and no one gets it fixed is it a problem or is just an annoyance?
I think i heard of someone getting it fixed because of a generous warranty.But i have never heard of "oh i had the start up rattle and then eventually my cam tensioner broke,car broke down"stories. Never any catastrophic failures directly linked to this right?Someone please chime in if im wrong.
The repair for this is very intrusive and labor intensive there is no "part to buy" so its not
really worth thinking about till we start hearing about our cars blowing up because of this.

DuncanC
01-14-2010, 02:53 PM
if most 2004-2005 have this this problem and no one gets it fixed is it a problem or is just an annoyance?
I think i heard of someone getting it fixed because of a generous warranty.But i have never heard of "oh i had the start up rattle and then eventually my cam tensioner broke,car broke down"stories. Never any catastrophic failures directly linked to this right?Someone please chime in if im wrong.
The repair for this is very intrusive and labor intrusive there no "part to buy" so its not
really worth thinking about till we start hearing about our cars blowing up because of this.

Your correct. I don't recall anybody having a engine failure related to the timing chain system. Its a very expensive fix and not worth doing to get rid of a little noise at start up. I don't like it when my friends ask if my car is dieing... But I am getting pretty close to doing LT headers and a Stg 3 clutch and at this point I don't plan to do any servicing of the timing chain assembly even though the motor will already be dropped. If anybody would recommend different I would love to hear your thoughts.

Naudi04
01-14-2010, 03:31 PM
Your correct. I don't recall anybody having a engine failure related to the timing chain system. Its a very expensive fix and not worth doing to get rid of a little noise at start up. I don't like it when my friends ask if my car is dieing... But I am getting pretty close to doing LT headers and a Stg 3 clutch and at this point I don't plan to do any servicing of the timing chain assembly even though the motor will already be dropped. If anybody would recommend different I would love to hear your thoughts.

I would like to believe you are both correct. This is only speculation though, no facts.

Although one will never know until data on both sides are posted in one thread related to the same issue. Hence build onto this thread. So far nobody has stated whether they have had this fixed, or that is has been related to further damage at any point. I would like to know either way.

Obviously it's a semi major labor fix, Audi doesn't want to pay to fix it unless it's causing something catastrophic. Is it, or is it nothing to worry about? FACTS.

Sunny4
01-14-2010, 06:15 PM
2004 S4 57,500 Miles YES

it happens, sound makes me cringe, is temp dependent, sometimes random, worse sound when siting for more than one day, after doing a fresh oil change with lubro moly i had this go away for a a week or so (oil weight dependent??), I think its getting progressively louder (could be wrong), I have brought it up but Dealer gives the same speech.

wakzak33
01-15-2010, 08:34 AM
2004 S4, 69,000 mi. , YES!

tomboonen
01-15-2010, 04:34 PM
05.5 S4, 30k, Yes

szinkuti
01-15-2010, 04:56 PM
2005 60k miles...my car does it.....and its normal...its like every car I change the oil on when the car is first started up it sounds like there is no oil in the car.....and its not just the s4's that sound loud on startups.....its all of them.....

Silver B6 S4
01-15-2010, 05:12 PM
2005 60k miles...my car does it.....and its normal...its like every car I change the oil on when the car is first started up it sounds like there is no oil in the car.....and its not just the s4's that sound loud on startups.....its all of them.....



That is kinda reassuring coming from you. Just a thought though, wouldn't this problem do damage over time? I mean it can't be good for internally lubricated parts not being lubricated at start-up over time. My chain rattles, and it can't be good for the plastic guides if a metal chain is slapping against them.


IDK, I guess since our engines are one of a kind, you wont notice this in other cars. My CRX hasn't been started in 2 weeks, and it doesn't make any weird noises when I started it.


We are just all worried because this is an expensive engine to replace.

Naudi04
01-15-2010, 05:17 PM
That is kinda reassuring coming from you. Just a thought though, wouldn't this problem do damage over time? I mean it can't be good for internally lubricated parts not being lubricated at start-up over time. My chain rattles, and it can't be good for the plastic guides if a metal chain is slapping against them.


IDK, I guess since our engines are one of a kind, you wont notice this in other cars. My CRX hasn't been started in 2 weeks, and it doesn't make any weird noises when I started it.


We are just all worried because this is an expensive engine to replace.

you guys are hitting the nail on the head here.

road race s4
01-15-2010, 05:24 PM
2004 s4 47k yes (1-2seconds)

Silver B6 S4
01-15-2010, 05:44 PM
2005 60k miles...my car does it.....and its normal...its like every car I change the oil on when the car is first started up it sounds like there is no oil in the car.....and its not just the s4's that sound loud on startups.....its all of them.....



I also want to add, when I did my last oil change my chain didn't make the noise when I started it up afterwords.

szinkuti
01-15-2010, 06:20 PM
I also want to add, when I did my last oil change my chain didn't make the noise when I started it up afterwords.

Every car will eventually wear out and break down....its all about having a warranty or extended warranty to take care of it....or funds in the bank to cover a serious repair....but there are not tons of cars out there that are prematurely breaking down (chains/guides/adjusters)....look at the 1.8T....the most common engine to get a new cam tensioner/adjuster....mainly caused by the sludging up issues....and thats it....in my 4 years with Audi (2 dealers/1 of which was one of the largest on the east coast) I have only seen 1 S4 that needed chain adjusters....


and this is that car http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322235

Naudi04
01-15-2010, 07:41 PM
I also want to add, when I did my last oil change my chain didn't make the noise when I started it up afterwords.

Just picked up my car from Sunset Audi. Oil change was done today, on startup there was no rattle noise. But the car was started earlier in the day. I'll try again tomorrow night or Sunday and see.

Naudi04
01-16-2010, 12:16 AM
Anybody else with '07 and up with higher miles having this startup noise?

prnit
01-16-2010, 03:16 AM
2004 S4, 65,000 miles, yes, i have my car over half a year and this sounds occurs when starting the car in the morning, after oil change the sound was quieter but now it is the same as it was before. As seen from this topic 90% of the S4 has it so I wouldn't worry about it, also I asked about this in Audi service and they told me the same, it is normal in this engine.

bleicht
01-16-2010, 12:08 PM
2005.5 S4, 68k miles
I will hear the noise maybe 1 in 6 startups.
It sucks.

audimotion
01-16-2010, 12:22 PM
04 w/67K miles. Have heard noise only a couple times...and only when sitting for a week or so. Something I really haven't worried about, but will if it gets real bad.

banker1
01-16-2010, 04:09 PM
2005 S4 - 50,500 miles - yes. Hear it more during cold starts on cold days. Haven't had the car during warm weather months yet so won't know if it goes away...

carpediem1230
01-16-2010, 04:21 PM
2007 S4 16,500 miles. No noise... knock on wood.

Vids yet to see what it sounds like?

Naudi04
01-16-2010, 06:00 PM
2007 S4 16,500 miles. No noise... knock on wood.

Vids yet to see what it sounds like?

Had to drive my car this afternoon (I was dying for Mad Greek Deli - food), so it only sat overnight. Took video of the start, but didn't make the noise. I'll try again tomorrow.

aks4avant
01-16-2010, 06:26 PM
2006 S4 and also hear it on random start ups, not just cold. Ive heard it's a normal sound and not to worry unless it does it all the time during operation.

mountainsnbirds
01-16-2010, 07:21 PM
05 avant bought with 73k mi and yes, still heard at 102k mi. The noise is a rattle sound for .05 sec. But I only hear this occasionally.

PNW Avant
01-28-2010, 02:05 PM
2004, 34,500miles, extremely well maintained.

Loud rough sound at cold start up (morning before work) for about .5 seconds. If i blip the starter a few times before I let it fire up, the sound is not as bad and sometimes is gone. It does not do this when its warm.

Naudi04
01-28-2010, 02:37 PM
2004, 34,500miles, extremely well maintained.

Loud rough sound at cold start up (morning before work) for about .5 seconds. If i blip the starter a few times before I let it fire up, the sound is not as bad and sometimes is gone. It does not do this when its warm.

What does "blip the starter" mean? Sorry not familiar with that term.

Thanks!

jdalu
01-28-2010, 08:24 PM
'05 S4 71,500 miles.

Just was in for a service that replaced the engine coils (recall) and some other minor items and asked about this 1-3 second rattle issue. Definitely never noticed it when not cold weather (sub 40degF). In the cold I've heard it more than a few times- unnerving. For the record, I learned more reading this thread than my service dept knew (or cared to share) about the cause.

I'll go with the crowd and hope there is no long term wear repercussion.

AndyGs4
01-28-2010, 08:34 PM
May want to check out this page, and scroll down a bit.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=340955&page=2

In short, I just lost a motor and the only symptom preceding the failure was a rattle at cold start. My opinion on this issue after the last week is simply this:

The rattle may or may not lead to failure, but it is a sign of wear, and may aggravate other issues.

cheers,

Naudi04
01-28-2010, 08:36 PM
'05 S4 71,500 miles.

Just was in for a service that replaced the engine coils (recall) and some other minor items and asked about this 1-3 second rattle issue. Definitely never noticed it when not cold weather (sub 40degF). In the cold I've heard it more than a few times- unnerving. For the record, learned more reading this thread than my service dept knew (or cared to share) about the cause.

I'll go with the crowd and hope there is no long term wear repercussion.

Thanks for thumbs up on this thread! [drive]

Oh yeah, not like most of you need video to nod a yes to this rattle noise, but I did get video of this on startup the other day. I was inside the car, I'll try to get this posted as soon as I can. Maybe it will just solidify those who are unsure about the noise.

PNW Avant
01-28-2010, 10:10 PM
What does "blip the starter" mean? Sorry not familiar with that term.

Thanks!

Turn the starter so that it cranks but pull it back right before the car actually starts. This builds oil pressure.

But I am absolutely positive this isnt great for the starter motor either so I don't do it often. Just to see if it gets rid of the noise. My noise is not bad at all though. Just sounds a little raw at cold start for ~.5 seconds.

Naudi04
01-28-2010, 11:54 PM
2007 S4 16,500 miles. No noise... knock on wood.

Vids yet to see what it sounds like?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-RIEQHCKts

B6_Rakete
01-29-2010, 12:06 AM
For what it's worth, my car was making this noise before my last oil change 600 miles ago. Now, even after sitting for a whole weekend, I don't hear the same sound. I wonder if issue is exacerbated by a slight change in oil weight...

Naudi04
01-29-2010, 12:33 AM
For what it's worth, my car was making this noise before my last oil change 600 miles ago. Now, even after sitting for a whole weekend, I don't hear the same sound. I wonder if issue is exacerbated by a slight change in oil weight...

I was actually curious if anyone was running synthetic Lucas oil stabilizer?

Maybe the thickness of this stabilizer would quiet down this issue by keeping it lubed better. I ran Lucas in my VR6 with 5w/30 Mobil 1, engine purred.

Just curious...

http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display_products.sd?iid=49&catid=2&loc=show

PSYC0TIC ONE
01-29-2010, 02:20 AM
2004 S4 70K, yes makes the sound

my car does it after sitting for a few hours... it happens MOST of the time but, sometimes, after sitting for a day or two it doesn't make the sound... i should also mention that i live in Hawaii, and even early in the morning it is very rarely less than 70 degrees and i still hear the sound...

just curious as to what oil (weight/brand) you guys would recommend for me living out here in a tropical climate... time is approaching to do an oil change/tire rotation and want to hear from the "pros" on oil recommendations... i usually had it serviced for an oil change at the dealer here because i didn't have the required tools but, now i has them and ready to get my hands just as dirty on the B6 as they were with my B5, which i miss very much by the way :(

ess_four
01-29-2010, 06:03 AM
2003 B6 (BBK) 63K - Yes

raimsb6
01-29-2010, 06:20 AM
2003 (2004 model year) B6 S4 68k - Yes

RBSileighty
01-29-2010, 07:54 AM
05 75k mi B6 S4 Avant - Yes, but very short and only on first startup of the day and not every day (Only had the car in a very cold winter so far and running fresh 0W40 Mobil 1)

PNW Avant
01-29-2010, 11:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-RIEQHCKts

Yup. Mine sounds like that but not as bad.

PSYC0TIC ONE
01-30-2010, 02:07 AM
Yup. Mine sounds like that but not as bad.

I didn't even hear it, lol

jdparkes
01-30-2010, 09:45 AM
2004 S4 42k - With start up noise

carpediem1230
01-30-2010, 10:50 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-RIEQHCKts

Thanks for that. As someone mentioned it is a bit hard to hear, but after listening a few times, it sounds like there is something there in addition the to the normal loud start up.

I definitely don't have that sound, but I do hear something which seems to sound like fluids circulating about 1 or 2 seconds after start up. Not sure what that sound is exactly, but it's not the clanging like in the vid.

madmax
02-01-2010, 04:41 PM
New member here, bought an 2004 S4 last week.
67k miles and YES I get the noise in the early morning start in cold weather. Just as someone commented on the vid, sounds like a tractor.

amoujaffar
02-02-2010, 08:32 AM
new owner. 91K, rattles like hell for 2-3 seconds then its fine.

Shu
02-02-2010, 09:49 AM
2005 S4 75K rattle for 1 second or so

ruskii
02-02-2010, 11:19 AM
I have experience with this problem and have fixed it. I own a 2004 S4, it started to rattle pretty loud in the winter (cold here in Utah). Like previously said, the hypothesis is that its from the cam chain tensioners loosing oil pressure. Personally i think there might be a little more to it than that, maybe the mechanical springs in the tensioners wearing out. Anyways, my car had a major issue, the cam timing adjuster failed. This piece is what provides variable intake timing. Itís a big round piece that sits on the end of the cam (chain side). Inside of it, there is a pin that keeps it a certain position, when oil pressure pushes on that pin it allows the piece to rotate and change the cam timing. The pin wears out the metal around it and eventually it wont stay in place, that is what happened on my car. I took the motor out and replaced the cam timing piece and since I had it all apart I replaced the chain tensioners. There are four chains, so there are four tensioners, but I only replaced the cam ones. After I put everything back together the car doesnít rattle anymore. I donít think the rattling is related to the cam adjuster at all. It cost about $1500 dollars in parts to fix (at dealer cost), plus you need 3 special audi tools.

My friends 2004 S4 has 80k miles and rattles. The exact same problem happened with his car. Even the same side adjuster (passenger side), we replaced his tensioners while we were at it and the car doesnít rattle anymore either.

If you want to fix the rattling issue, you need to pull the motor and replace both tensioners. If anyone is near SLC, UT I would be happy to do this anyones car for a fraction of what the dealer would charge. It would be about $700 in parts, and it would take me 2 days to complete.

JRM
02-04-2010, 07:49 AM
Yup, cold start rattle here too. '05 with 65k miles

93hrdtptt
02-04-2010, 08:24 AM
Yessir...2004 S4, started last year 60k miles..car just hit 80k, hear it every morning 1.5 seconds, dealer also told me it was a normal sound and not to be concerned.

ruskii
02-04-2010, 11:22 AM
The fact that the dealers are saying it's a normal sound is ridiculous! How could it be normal when something is worn out and not functioning like it should. There is a difference between normal and common. Its a bummer when you buy a car for 20k and it rattles everytime you start it.

The issue that worries me, is by looking at variable intake cam adjuster I can see a possible cause being the chain tensioners. If they don't keep enough tension on the chain, there is slop that causes shock to parts. So there might be more to it than just an annoying noise. I could be wrong and overthinking it, hopefully I am.

tylerS
02-04-2010, 11:36 AM
the sky is falling!!!!

AndyGs4
02-04-2010, 06:57 PM
Anyways, my car had a major issue, the cam timing adjuster failed. This piece is what provides variable intake timing. It’s a big round piece that sits on the end of the cam (chain side). Inside of it, there is a pin that keeps it a certain position, when oil pressure pushes on that pin it allows the piece to rotate and change the cam timing. The pin wears out the metal around it and eventually it wont stay in place, that is what happened on my car. I took the motor out and replaced the cam timing piece

This is exactly what happened on my car, and the result was a valve getting dropped into cylinder #4. So my car is getting a new engine put in this week. I hope to get it back next week. I am also having a JHM LW clutch (B7 style), and a LW pulley as well as several other engine components (belt, coilpacks ect...)being replaced at the same time.

I am in SLC as well, and I live in a condo nowadays so working on my own car is a no-go....I may PM you in the future for header install help if you are up for it!

ruskii
02-05-2010, 08:37 AM
This is exactly what happened on my car, and the result was a valve getting dropped into cylinder #4. So my car is getting a new engine put in this week. I hope to get it back next week. I am also having a JHM LW clutch (B7 style), and a LW pulley as well as several other engine components (belt, coilpacks ect...)being replaced at the same time.

I am in SLC as well, and I live in a condo nowadays so working on my own car is a no-go....I may PM you in the future for header install help if you are up for it!


Bummer, well at least now you should have a better running car. Yeah if you need any Audi work PM me, I have a shop in North SLC.

lagadula
02-12-2010, 08:31 AM
I bought S4 avant 2003 , 2 weeks ago. 139.800 km = 87000 miles. I have rattle sound on cold and warm startup. But not always.

B00sted20VUSP
02-15-2010, 06:55 PM
2005.5 B7 S4 - NO noise. 50,126 miles

AudiPWR
02-15-2010, 07:22 PM
04 S4, 50100 miles and yes, been doing it since i had it at 42000 miles.

lagadula
02-16-2010, 06:56 AM
I have info from my friend, from Auid dealership, that sound is from timing adjuster, and till its not making hard nosie (dont know what dose it mean) You dont nead to replace them.
We will try to do it, and put new one for a test, so I'll inform You all what was the result.

Who has 'sound" on hot / warm engine, after, lets say, one hour of sitting ?

04v8s4
02-16-2010, 07:07 PM
I have a 2004 with 52k miles on it. I hardly ever heard this noise when I bought the car (38k). Now I hear a loud rattling for 1-2 seconds EVERY time i start the car with a cold engine.

Just waiting for something catastrophic to happen...then i'll be getting a new motor under warranty. Ticking time bomb.

What a rediculous mess this is. There's no point to even mention this to my dealership right now. They will tell me they either can't replicate the noise or it's perfectly normal.

AndyGs4
02-16-2010, 10:22 PM
Just waiting for something catastrophic to happen..

I wouldn't sweat it too much. It would seem many, many, many S4 V8s do this above 50K. A select few actually have a catastrophic problem. Mine was one of them. But to be fair, the "rattle" wasn't the cause of the failure. It may have contributed I guess, but my cam tensioners were fine (other than the rattle at start). What failed in mine was the cam adjuster on the passenger side. That in combination with a lubrication problem is why my motor had to be replaced.

All I have to say is, regardless of what Audi says change your oil at 3K miles. These engines abuse oil. And I know that there are many oils on the Audi recommended list, but do your research and pick wisely. Perhaps search the forum to see what others choose to run, and why. A few extra bucks per change is a lot cheaper than a new long block. It would seem with aggressive service schedules (3K miles or so), these motors are bulletproof. With conservative service schedules (5-8K miles), these motors can become problematic as the mileage gets up there. At least that is my take. I'm sure driving style plays into this as well. If you live below 4K RPMs, it may not be as much of an issue vs driving it like a racecar all of the time (me).

Fade2Black
02-17-2010, 10:37 AM
Rattle noise right at startup for about a second. Just started this winter. I don't heare anything when its warm.

2005 70k miles

04v8s4
02-18-2010, 07:35 PM
I wouldn't sweat it too much. It would seem many, many, many S4 V8s do this above 50K. A select few actually have a catastrophic problem. Mine was one of them. But to be fair, the "rattle" wasn't the cause of the failure. It may have contributed I guess, but my cam tensioners were fine (other than the rattle at start). What failed in mine was the cam adjuster on the passenger side. That in combination with a lubrication problem is why my motor had to be replaced.

All I have to say is, regardless of what Audi says change your oil at 3K miles. These engines abuse oil. And I know that there are many oils on the Audi recommended list, but do your research and pick wisely. Perhaps search the forum to see what others choose to run, and why. A few extra bucks per change is a lot cheaper than a new long block. It would seem with aggressive service schedules (3K miles or so), these motors are bulletproof. With conservative service schedules (5-8K miles), these motors can become problematic as the mileage gets up there. At least that is my take. I'm sure driving style plays into this as well. If you live below 4K RPMs, it may not be as much of an issue vs driving it like a racecar all of the time (me).

I agree with you completely about the oil. I think 3k is a little too early. But i have been changing my oil religiously every 5k miles with either lubromoly or pentosyth. I usually use the lubromoly, but tried the pentosyth a while back just to see if i noticed any differences (good or bad).

I generally drive my car like an old lady. I do a few "spirited" pulls here and there...but normally shift a 6500 when I do. I think i can count on one hand the times i've seen 7k on the tach.

Anyways...it's a miserable noise. I just hate that a premium sports sedan sounds like that every time i start it up. Nice work audi.

lagadula
02-20-2010, 04:05 AM
Strange things are happening last days, with my S4. Its much warmer this week, around +5*C and looks like "noise" is more quiet or even gone on cold engine start....

HamidS4
03-14-2010, 08:15 PM
04 S4 72,xxx miles - YES
new owner/member , just picked up this 04 S4 yesterday with 72xxx miles, I had my first cold start today, and I was expecting the engine to halt right away when I heard that loud noise ... for me the noise lasted one year !!!! I seriously can't remember how long it took for the noise to go away. :(

FWP!
03-14-2010, 09:16 PM
2005 S4 46k miles YES

Don't think it's a huge deal though. Only happens if the car hasn't been driven for about a day, indicating that the chain tensioners are bleeding off some pressure. Not the end of the world.

ess_four
03-15-2010, 05:32 AM
Change the oil at the weekend. Started the car up this morning and...............No rattle. Normally there is a rattle.

LJH
03-15-2010, 07:47 AM
2004 S4 (Late build, 8/2004)
60K Miles

I just bought the car in late November so I have not owned the car during the warmer months. The car sits in the garage during the week and does not get used except for the weekend. I get no rattle to a fraction of a second of rattle on cold start-up Saturday morning 98% of the time. The other 2% of the time it makes a slightly louder rattle for maybe a second, this louder noise has increased a bit in the last 500 miles as I get closer to the oil change interval as well as being 3/4 of a quart low. The oil level seems to play a big roll in the sound and a little down makes a big difference. I also seem to get a louder noise after I have driven the car hard. The PO sounded like we was very religious about changing the oil with synthetic at 5K miles and I believe him after seeing the how the oil looks on the dip stick after 4200 miles. I personally do not have any concerns about the noise, it is just how the engine is designed to operate.

My $0.02

Cheers,
Jim

4udi s4
03-15-2010, 10:02 AM
I have a rattling noise at start-up now that I used Castrol syntec 5w40 on my last oil change. I'm going to try a different brand to see if that helps

ant7701
03-15-2010, 06:02 PM
2005 B6 S4 bought CPO'd at 29k with this noise.
now at 54k and its gotten a bid louder and lasts for maybe a second longer.
embarrassing to be in a 50k+ car and have this noise.....even if for a few seconds

moacur!
03-16-2010, 12:35 PM
05 S4 at 65k miles. Terrible cold start grinding noise. Lasts a few seconds and then things are fine.

4udi s4
03-16-2010, 04:53 PM
I should also note that in all of my past cars with any form of timing chain has made this noise, ALL of my cars minus my timing belt Honda Accord made this noise on start-up...

Nissan Maxima's, Various BMWs including E39 540i and E46 M3, Two G35's

OutofDate
03-16-2010, 06:15 PM
2004 S4 65k miles YES...


I was told it was due to the tensioners as well.

yep. 2004 S4 48k-71k miles... was also told due to the tensioners. getting that done after some other repairs. any one ever experience slow start when cold and car has been sitting for 2+ days. If its really cold, I have to hold the key for about 20 seconds before the engine starts up... I guess I'll find out after the tensioners are replaced next week; or I'll find out next winter...

ItzDarrellS4
03-16-2010, 06:20 PM
think i heard this starting the car last night. 1st start in almost 4 months. 2004 39k

audimotion
03-16-2010, 07:23 PM
Started mine for the first time since thanksgiving (in storage), and to my suprise, it made zero rattle/noise. It was about 45 degrees out when I fired it up.

I hope it continues to be quiet....

abe
04-17-2010, 03:05 PM
2008 S4 Avant, 17K miles, no problems

CRSmith05
04-19-2010, 07:34 PM
I have what could be some interesting information regarding this sticky, hopefully it hasn't been discussed on another post. Been a member for awhile now, but usually just looking around.. I don't generally post. However, I have been looking at this thread for some time now reading everyones input. First, a little about my car. It is a 2004 S4 Tip with just over 50,000 miles. It spent a lot more time sitting before I bought it as about 2/3 of the miles are from the last 18-20 months. While I don't know the entire car history, I know its second owner very well and he always kept the car maintained and in perfect condition. The service history over the life of the car reflects this. Long story short, the previous owner (my brother-in-law) bought an aftermarket warranty (Nissan) that covers the car until appx 80,000 miles or 2012. I have fortunately had this coverage as problems with the S4 seem normal and common and I am able to always visit the dealer when I have problems. Nissan as the warranty provider has handled many things so when I took it in for a window regulator last week, I expected no problems and was correct. Now for the relevant part of the post..... My car has also been rattling (at LEAST 85% of the time) at startup, generally for 2-3 seconds and it seemed to be getting worse as time went on. This all started within the last 10,000 miles and like other members made me cringe every time I started the car! I can't say for sure if it got worse with weather, but we just had a hard winter (in Oklahoma) but the car was always garage kept. I decided to see what Audi would tell me since it would be in the shop for the regulator, and even explained (in an attempt to just cut to the chase) that I had heard it was a common problem that Audi acknowledged as "normal" behavior. I discussed with the service advisor that it did NOT sound normal to me and that I would like them to take a closer look, especially since I had the warranty to cover such failure. After several days (where she told me the tech was in contact with AOA) she called me this evening with a verdict.... "we fixed your car, it is ready." I immediately asked if she was referring to the startup clatter to which she replied, "yes, it has been taken care of, the tech spend a lot of time isolating the sound and together with Audi they determined the problem could be fixed with a simple software update." I obviously said that seemed extremely hard to believe, especially with how harsh the sound was and the NUMEROUS posts I have found describing my EXACT symptoms. I am holding off excitement because I just picked the car up about 2 hours ago. However, so far.. the initial startup (had been pulled to the service drive recently) was rattle free. I stopped for gas (off for 5 min max) and it was rattle free, I stopped in my garage (about a 25 mile drive home) and restarted immediately where again it was rattle free. I waited about 45-60 minutes (the time it took me to eat dinner and write this post) and restarted the car.... rattle free. I started the car a couple consecutive times (2-3 times within a couple minutes) again and they were all rattle free. Of course I haven't heard a "cold" start yet, so I am trying to hold of any premature excitement.. but the dealer seemed sure of themselves and so far things have been good. Like I mentioned, they cited the fix as "per Audi corporate support" during the phone conversation. The car is driven a minimum of 5 days weekly and sits overnight in the garage. Tonight temperatures are expected to drop to just below 50 degrees, but the garage will stay warmer as the highs have been in the 60-70's during the past week or two. I intend to update everyone, but please chime in with any input. Oh, details regarding the repair.. I don't know what is on the dealer copy of a service receipt, but it simply says "reprogram engine control module with Audi software update." Let me know what you guys think...

Naudi04
04-19-2010, 07:40 PM
That is definitely interesting. Let us know how your next few days go with cold starts. Will they give you any information as to what exactly was modified with the "reprogram engine control module" ?

CRSmith05
04-19-2010, 07:51 PM
If the results are still just as encouraging after a few days, I will see if I can get anymore information from the dealership. As much as I hate to (it always spends the nights inside).. I am going to park the car outside tonight, especially since we are expecting sub 50-degree lows tonight. I think that will give a more definitive result (for you guys and me) than leaving it in the garage where it will stay much warmer. Again, I am trying to keep from getting excited... nothing about the fix makes sense to me. I am by no means a mechanic, but I am not afraid to get my hands dirty and will tackle jobs around the house and am not afraid to do a brake job. Just put new rears on the S4 about a month ago and the parts for the front are waiting for some extra time during an upcoming weekend. Everything that has been posted here about tensioners etc makes perfect sense to me.. if someone would have told me a software update would have made ANY difference I wouldn't have believed it for a minute. All I can do is cross my fingers..

djmika
04-20-2010, 09:49 PM
2005 S4 62K. Just bought it a week ago and it does make noise when started after sitting over night.

My brother is an Audi tech and he says it's very common for our cars and that it's most likely not something to worry much about. He says it's oil pressure bleed down after the car sits which stands to reason. I share the view that a programming fix for this seems like a long shot.

The only thing I could figure is longer ignition cranking time before the engine turns over or lower RPM initial start could mask the problem. I don't even know if this is something that could be done through programming.

Regardless, although my car isn't that bad it is frusterating and it's just one of those nagging little things that sticks in the back of my mind. I would like to think Audi could do better than this.

PNW Avant
04-21-2010, 12:51 AM
If the results are still just as encouraging after a few days, I will see if I can get anymore information from the dealership. As much as I hate to (it always spends the nights inside).. I am going to park the car outside tonight, especially since we are expecting sub 50-degree lows tonight. I think that will give a more definitive result (for you guys and me) than leaving it in the garage where it will stay much warmer. Again, I am trying to keep from getting excited... nothing about the fix makes sense to me. I am by no means a mechanic, but I am not afraid to get my hands dirty and will tackle jobs around the house and am not afraid to do a brake job. Just put new rears on the S4 about a month ago and the parts for the front are waiting for some extra time during an upcoming weekend. Everything that has been posted here about tensioners etc makes perfect sense to me.. if someone would have told me a software update would have made ANY difference I wouldn't have believed it for a minute. All I can do is cross my fingers..

I wouldn't get your hopes up, your intuition is most likely correct here, IMO.

A software update (to my knowledge...) cannot change how much oil pressure is built in the motor before the timing chain moves. We already know that is the cause of the rattle. I can almost say for certain that there is no "lag" in the build up of oil pressure in this motor so I cannot imagine a software update magically allows pressure to build quicker...

Furthermore, don't park your car outside in the cold just to replicate this. It's not so much about temperature but more about oil pressure left in the motor after use.

CRSmith05
04-21-2010, 11:06 AM
Sorry for the delayed reply, wanted to wait a day or two before jumping in with a reply. Believe it or not (I am still pretty dumbfounded), the rattling sound is in the least 99% gone. Last week before it went to the dealership, I would have described it as "loud, 2-3 seconds, embarrassing" just like everyone here. After several starts, including the night after leaving it outside (which might not have been relevant I see) the worst I MIGHT have heard sounded like dropping 2-3 dimes on the floor mats, MAYBE. It is exponentially better, to the point I am starting the car with the door open just to listen for any evidence of rattling and I am NOT hearing it. At this point the longest it has sat is roughly 12 hours overnight after/before work. I want to stress that it makes no sense to me based on all of the evidence provided here… you guys have done some very thorough research. However, I can say definitively that it is better on my car. Much, much, much better. All I can think is that something in the new code they dropped on the ECU somehow "masks" the problem. My gut feeling, which is based on what we all agree (oil pressure, chain rattle is the cause) is that the problem still exists, and maybe Audi found a way to mask the issue -OR- I could have had a rattle coming from somewhere else that had a different cause. I have to stress that I truly don't feel it’s the latter. Everything described here matched my symptoms perfectly. I was ready to go to the dealership and have them tell me the motor was coming out. I am going to see if I can get more info on what the software update actually changed… will update after having a chance to try and get more info. Any more input from you guys?

djmika
04-21-2010, 11:12 PM
I look forward to hearing what the dealer has to say or if they did something else while they were in there. Possibly a oil change with a different weight oil?

This sounds too good to be true but if there is something Audi can do to at least mask the problem, I'm in. After all, even if they masked the problem and quieted the noise that's a good thing. I would think that the louder the noise the more subsequest wear and possible long term damage.

Chadillac2000
04-22-2010, 12:16 AM
Changed my oil to Castrol Edge 10w-30 and mine went away completely. Could me a mixture of the warmer weather as well. Mine used to be pretty gnarly with whatever oil was in there before.

djmika
04-22-2010, 02:49 AM
Chadillac - Did you just recently get the car? In other words, was this your first oil change or had you been using a different oil for a while? If a heavier weight oil helps sounds like a good band-aid. I don't think the weather should make much differance. If the car makes doise becuase of oil pressure bleed-down it's going to make noise no matter what. I guess thickening of the oil due to cold weather could make the noise last a little longer while oil pressure is restored though.

I guess thicker oil could take longer to bleed down.

Anyone else tried 10w-30 or Castrol Edge?

CRSmith05
04-22-2010, 09:43 PM
Don't have an update yet, but wanted to comment regarding the oil change. Didn't get the oil changed during this visit, but all oil changes are performed at the dealership so I assume (but can't confirm) they are using OEM weight. I had to leave the state for a few days for my job. I hope to try and get details about the software update early next week... Still not hearing a rattle though.

Tifoso
04-23-2010, 12:59 PM
2006 S4 Avant, 45,000 miles. Yes, I get the noise on cold startup only (seems to be getting worse).

RydeH2O
04-26-2010, 02:24 PM
2004 S4, 54K miles....ive been hearing this loud rattling noise in my engine start up for atleast 10k miles. definitely is worse during the winter months. Please keep everyone informed about the software update so we can go to our local dealerships for the update!

Sunny4
05-05-2010, 07:23 PM
I took car in to dealer yesterday. Was informed of receiving said software update oday and took short drive cause i didn't believe it and there was no rattle. Now this is still early. I do need my car back and need to test it for longer times. Also its summer so that might have an effect as well. Stay tuned. Will updated as I get new info.

PS. this may or may not have helped my issues of the rpm sticking when doing a smooth shift vs. a slower shift where you hit neutral then the next gear up.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?357568-Hanging-RPM-s&highlight=

Naudi04
05-05-2010, 09:54 PM
Don't have an update yet, but wanted to comment regarding the oil change. Didn't get the oil changed during this visit, but all oil changes are performed at the dealership so I assume (but can't confirm) they are using OEM weight. I had to leave the state for a few days for my job. I hope to try and get details about the software update early next week... Still not hearing a rattle though.

More updates CRS! :)

40ValveV8
05-07-2010, 05:32 PM
04 S4 @ 60,884 miles, and have noticed the noise for .5 seconds on very cold start up (less than 50 degrees outside) temps. It only did it intermittently, and the dealer already knew that this was brought up from the previous owner. So I just recently did my first oil change since I purchased my car 2 months ago. The previous owner had it serviced at Queensway Audi since he purchased it himself, and they always did either Castrol 5,30 or Mobil 1 5,30 I decided that the oil the dealer was using was crap, so I decided to get in some Lubro Moly 0w40 So far, no noise at all, none...zip....nada, and when I talked to Mike at Precision Tuning in Toronto, he said that 5w,30 Castrol may have been the culprit. He also mentioned I should be doing a flush as well, sludge buildup from crappy synth oil etc.

As far as the software update, if someone could find out what the TSB is on this, that would be fantastic. I talked to my dealer, and they do not know about this, neither does AOA either when I called.


My 2 Shekels

Sunny4
05-12-2010, 12:33 PM
The Tsb number is 2017369/3

Had the car for 1 day, the noise seems less audible at start up than before. My rpm seem more timed with shifts as opposed for dropping late or hanging.

Hope this helps.

More updates as time goes on.

Naudi04
05-12-2010, 01:27 PM
The Tsb number is 2017369/3

Had the car for 1 day, the noise seems less audible at start up than before. My rpm seem more timed with shifts as opposed for dropping late or hanging.

Hope this helps.

More updates as time goes on.

TSB 2010294/5 is regarding this thread & 2017369/3 is a separate issue.

I'm curious as to the TSB 2017369/3. Never looked into this and as described the sound duration and occurrence is similar.

Sunny4
05-12-2010, 01:52 PM
This is what i found when i goggled it.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?241186-B6-S4-Engine-Knock-99K-HELP!!


Technical Service Bulletin Transaction No.: 2017369/3
24 Rattling from intake manifold Release date: Dec 17, 2008

Condition

REVISION HISTORY

Revision
Date
Purpose

3
-
Revised Title to add Repair Group


Sporadic hard metallic rattling sound from intake manifold only after first cold start, audible for 1-2 seconds.

Technical Background

Early activation of the vacuum solenoid valves for the variable intake manifold by the Engine Control Module (J623) during cold engine starts may cause the internal intake flaps to vibrate and create a brief rattling sound from the intake manifold.

Production Solution

New software in Engine Control Module (J623) resolved the intake manifold rattling issue.

Tip: Please explain to the customers that this new software is the latest software level with improved driving characteristics, which includes the following changes:

• The exhaust flap (if equipped) is always open, and no diagnosis of the Exhaust Flap Valve N321 is possible. Up to 1,700 rpm the engine is a bit louder, as the exhaust flap is always open.

• Faster throttle overrun cutoff, with more direct accelerator pedal and reduced overrun after releasing the accelerator.

• To prevent the clutch from slipping when accelerating from a stop, the engine torque is slightly reduced when vehicle speed is below 20 mph and the engine speed is higher than 4600 rpm. There is no noticeable performance difference.


Service

SVM Update Instructions

1. If you encounter a vehicle with a tuned ECM or TCM, your dealership must do the following before performing any procedure that updates ECM or TCM programming:

Note:

Any Update Programming procedure (flash) may overwrite any tuned ECM or TCM programming. A tuned ECM or TCM is described as any ECM or TCM altered so as to perform outside the normal parameters and specifications approved by Audi of America, Inc.

a. Notify the owner that their ECM or TCM was found to have been tuned.

b. Notify the owner that any damage caused by the tuning of the ECM or TCM (including any adverse emissions consequences) will not be covered by Audi of America, Inc. warranties.

c. Obtain the owner's written consent (see attached Control Module Tuning form) for any requested repair - under warranty or outside warranty - that requires flashing that will automatically overwrite the tuned program.


2. Check the software part number and software level in the Engine Control Module (J623).

3. Prior to beginning the SVM process, insert a USB memory stick into the VAS 5051 tester to capture the diagnostic log electronically.

4. Connect the VAS 5051A and VAS 5051B to a 110V AC power supply. The VAS 5051A and VAS 5051B must be connected to 110V AC power supply at all times during the procedure.

5. Update the Engine Control Module (J623) using SVM action code as listed in the table below if necessary.

Note: Only VAS 6017B adapter can be used for this update. Usage of VAS 6017 or 6017A may result in complete control module failure.



Model
Engine
Old Software Part Number
Old Software Version

(or lower)
New Software Part Number
New Software Version

(or higher)
SVM Action Code

S4
4.2L
8E0 910 560 A
0020
8E0 910 560 G
0030
8E01A037

S4
4.2L
8E0 910 560 C
0010
8E0 910 560 H
0020

S4
4.2L
8E0 910 560 G
0020
8E0 910 560 G
0030

S4
4.2L
8E0 910 560 H
0010
8E0 910 560 H
0020

S4
4.2L
8E0 910 560 Q
0020
8E0 910 560 G
0030

S4 Cabrio
4.2L
8H0 910 560 B
0020
8H0 910 560 F
0030

S4 Cabrio
4.2L
8H0 910 560 C
0020
8H0 910 560 G
0020

S4 Cabrio
4.2L
8H0 910 560 G
0010
8H0 910 560 G
0020

S4 Cabrio
4.2L
8H0 910 560 F
0020
8H0 910 560 F
0030



• If the vehicle has a tuned ECM or TCM, ensure the Control Module Tuning form has been filled out by the owner.

• Tip: The SVM Process must be completed in its entirety so the database receives the update confirmation response. A warranty claim may not be reimbursed if there is no confirmation response to support the claim.

• After updating the programming of the ECM, it is not necessary to set the Readiness Code.


For further SVM update instructions and troubleshooting, please refer to the SVM Operating Manual; ElsaWeb TSB 2011732.

Warranty

When procedure applies to vehicles under warranty, use the following:

SAGA

Claim Type:
110

Service Number:
2470

Damage Code:
0039

Labor Operations:
2470 25 99
Update Engine Control Module with SVM
70 TU

Diagnostic Time:
Diagnostic time reimbursement follows guidelines printed in Section 2.2 of the Audi Warranty Policies and Procedures Manual

Claim Comment:
As per TSB #2017369/3

All warranty claims submitted for payment must be in accordance with the Audi Warranty Policies and Procedures Manual. Claims are subject to review or audit by Audi Warranty.


Required Parts and Tools

• Approved charger.


Additional Information

The following Technical Service Bulletin will be necessary to complete this procedure:

• 2011732; Software Version Management (SVM) Operating Manual


All part and service references provided in this TSB are subject to change and/or removal. Always check with your Parts Dept. and service manuals for the latest information.

rlee6462
05-12-2010, 07:26 PM
2004 S4 81,000-Yes, I hear it.

Sunny4
05-13-2010, 10:14 AM
fyi

This software update is like a ecu flash. It changes the ecu map and there for changes the way the car drives. Kinda like a JHM tune.
My initial impressions:
1) The rattle noise has been reduced significantly, it isnt a prefect start but I don't get that bad gut feeling when i turn it on anymore. :)
2) The car drive's great. Shifts are quick, rpm's drop adequately, starting to have fun driving the car, feels like its a whole new car to me as appose to before
3) The car feels slower. Mainly before 4000/4500 rpms in the first 3 gears. I don't like it. Make's me feel like i got robbed. The description of the tsb states that the flash reduces torque and i have a feeling this is the cause of the slowness feeling. Although on the top end it seems its a bit stronger.

"Tip: Please explain to the customers that this new software is the latest software level with improved driving characteristics, which includes the following changes:

• The exhaust flap (if equipped) is always open, and no diagnosis of the Exhaust Flap Valve N321 is possible. Up to 1,700 rpm the engine is a bit louder, as the exhaust flap is always open.

• Faster throttle overrun cutoff, with more direct accelerator pedal and reduced overrun after releasing the accelerator.

• To prevent the clutch from slipping when accelerating from a stop, the engine torque is slightly reduced when vehicle speed is below 20 mph and the engine speed is higher than 4600 rpm. There is no noticeable performance difference."

Some things to know....
-it has been cold since i got my car back, and this car runs HOT so this could be a reason for issues not showing up yet
-its only been like 2 days, still too early to tell anything

abe
05-14-2010, 01:49 PM
To prevent the clutch from slipping when accelerating from a stop, the engine torque is slightly reduced when vehicle speed is below 20 mph and the engine speed is higher than 4600 rpm. There is no noticeable performance difference.

So for those of us that drive like a grandma and never get to 4K RPM when in 1st gear, we should not notice a difference, correct?

bulldog
05-27-2010, 03:28 PM
I also have this problem, Some times the engine starts up how it should and on others it starts up like it has a cold.
I got in contact with my local AUDI who said it is not normal for any car to sound like this. I am now having the oil and filter changed then from there it will be the timing chain tensioners and the timing chain that I have asked to be changed.
My dad owns his own garage and I have had some of the mechanics look at this problem as they work on prestige cars. They have all come to the same conclusion, TIMING CHAIN, TENSIONERS,
I want to get this done asap because if that chain jumps the teeth that will be one expensive problem and I would rather pay now than later.
I dont know why AUDI would tell anyone it is normal to have that sound shouting out of your engine even if it is for 2-3 sec

OutofDate
05-28-2010, 03:43 PM
yes 90% fo the time 71,000

Naudi04
05-28-2010, 06:53 PM
I updated the first post with better video, and an excel file with preview of all the results posted. Enjoy :)

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?338043-Cold-Startup-Ringing-Rattling-Noise-Sticky!&p=4783918&viewfull=1#post4783918

S4Bennett
05-29-2010, 08:29 PM
105500 chain rattle with 5w-30, but when I changed to 0w-40 tHe rattling japens less frequnrtly on cold starts.

homeychan
05-30-2010, 10:40 PM
Dealer told me it was normal till oil circulated, I thought it was an odd answer. I just had my shortblock replaced and car still makes the same sound, usually worse if car has been sitting for awhile. That would make sense to be the tensioner building pressure, I am a motorcycle guy and this is somewhat common on sportbikes at startup especially with older engines with oil pressure activated tensioners.

agy2k2
08-03-2010, 08:53 PM
has anyone found a way to quiet this noise?

I have an 04 S4 Avant 6MT with 93k and it rattles on every start after sitting.

Naudi04
08-03-2010, 09:02 PM
has anyone found a way to quiet this noise? anyone recommend against using thicker oil or adding a quart of lucas?

I've used lucas oil in most of my previous higher mileage cars, Vr6's, V8's etc. Haven't tried it in the S4 yet though, wanting to try, but unsure of any negative effects. Let us know what you find out :)

homeychan
08-03-2010, 11:15 PM
I am not sure that the rattle if it is the cam chain can be prevented, heavier oil if it eliminated the rattle could cause worse problems. You'd have to be really careful with this and in the end is it worth the risk to stop the rattle. If your car really rattles badly, maybe its a sign of a different issue. Since summer mine has not rattled at all, and with that symptom my issue would indicate thinner oil to be the solution since it flows easier in the summer. Maybe somebody else can correct me but doesn't the rattle go away once oil pressure builds, so would heavier oil prevent that?

Redbeard
08-04-2010, 02:26 AM
My chain tensioner broke a few months back and I ended up taking the motor apart to do the chains and replace half of the valves.

Before we diagnosed the problem with the chain tensioner we thought that the car was "knocking" on cold startup as the sound is very much metal on metal and it doesn't sound pretty.

We have diagnosed the problem as comming from the intake manifold. The rattle comes from a flapper valve that is failing.

Pottentially it could break and go into the engine with fatal consequences

SMACKLEY
08-04-2010, 07:17 PM
Ditto here...'04 S4. Noise has been happening since 70K miles. Now at 85K miles.

-Readbeard, nice diagnostic skills! You seem to have nailed it on the head with the flapper in the intake manifold just as Audi claims. Is the flapper really subject to becoming fully dislodged though? That would seem like a huge design flaw and would be pretty bad.

tylerS
08-04-2010, 10:49 PM
how is this thread still going? poor newbs

owen35ny
08-06-2010, 12:28 PM
I have a 2001 A4 1.8T with 93,000 miles. This started occurring at about 80,000. It is basically a rough start rattling noise for 3-4 seconds on cold start only. The mechanic said the ball gets stuck and it doesn't get oil pressure right away so he added a cleaner to the oil and it went from 3-4 seconds when starting to only 1-2 seconds. I am wondering what the progression of this normally is?

halik
08-06-2010, 12:36 PM
Ditto here...'04 S4. Noise has been happening since 70K miles. Now at 85K miles.

-Readbeard, nice diagnostic skills! You seem to have nailed it on the head with the flapper in the intake manifold just as Audi claims. Is the flapper really subject to becoming fully dislodged though? That would seem like a huge design flaw and would be pretty bad.

About no freaking way that will happen. The flapper is held on the the main axle with 4 steel bands that slide into the flapper body and act as sort of leaf springs. It took me like an hour to get he stupid thing off when i was changing the flapper for a CF one, that's on a car with 100K miles.

SquiddyB6S4
08-06-2010, 04:37 PM
I've used lucas oil in most of my previous higher mileage cars, Vr6's, V8's etc. Haven't tried it in the S4 yet though, wanting to try, but unsure of any negative effects. Let us know what you find out :)

Don't. If you've EVER seen lucas "oil" at work, you'll know why. The same additives that cause it to "climb" up those gears in the display case at your auto parts store also makes the oil foam and froth. Foam and froth don't cool metal parts; they leave air pockets on the metal parts, allowing the metal to burn, if it's hot enough. Buy a good synthetic oil and trust that they know WTF they're doing, and never use an additive like that. Please and thanks.

halik
08-07-2010, 08:43 AM
Don't. If you've EVER seen lucas "oil" at work, you'll know why. The same additives that cause it to "climb" up those gears in the display case at your auto parts store also makes the oil foam and froth. Foam and froth don't cool metal parts; they leave air pockets on the metal parts, allowing the metal to burn, if it's hot enough. Buy a good synthetic oil and trust that they know WTF they're doing, and never use an additive like that. Please and thanks.

Absolutely seconded.

B6 S4 is BRZRKR
09-05-2010, 10:24 AM
Hey guys. In case this is good for anyone else, Rich DeFransico (owner of European Auto Garage (http://europeanautogarage.com) in Knoxville, TN) wrote me this in an email. He read where I was asking on another forum (where someone told us to prime the fuel pump, so that's what that comment is about :)) and sent me this. He's the man who I trust with all my cars. I figured his insight would be valuable to others too. I think it's pretty straight up, since he makes money everytime someone wants this service and he's talking me out of it.

"Here is the deal on this whole chain issue. A tensioner has a light spring in it that allows it to "keep" it's size (length) while not pumped with oil. Oil pressure give it strength to keep the chain tensioned. While running, the tensioner is on the loose side of the chain. A tensioner bleeds out oil while pressurized, so when it is not pressurized by the oil pump it bleeds down, being held only by the light spring. When the car is turned off, an engine can stop anywher in it's range of motion, but tends to stop in the same place (example TDC cyl.1). Depending on the cam profile, when the cam stops there can be one or several lobes holding valves open. If there are more lobes on the ramp up, the chain is pulled in one direction, more on lobe ramping down, it pulls in a different direction. Therefore, you shut off your engine, crank stops, cam stops. Cam is being pushed by the valve springs counter clockwise, crank is pressed by compression and tension from the main bearings clockwise. What happens? The slack side of the chain now has tension pressing on the tensioner, which bleeds down. You start the engine, the spring is holding enough tension to prevent damage, but not enough to make it quiet for a few seconds until oil pressure builds. There is no loss of lubrication, there is no dry chain, there is actually more potential for damage to the cam and crank bearings. All cars have plastic guides, and they will all fail eventually, the ones with lack of oil changes failing sooner. I have a 540i in the shop right now with 220k on it that I am replacing guides in, I can show you exactly what is going on. I have seen the BMW rails fail as low as 150k, as high as 250k, and in some cases not at all. If someone wants to drop 5k "fixing" it, ok, but witht he same servicing, as soon as the tensioner breaks in, it will start again. Come start my 740i, every once in a while it chatters - brand new chain, rails, and tensioner last year (rails failed at 165k last year). Davids M5, Alan's old one, and all four that have come in last month, including Jeff Boyd's with 30k, sound like they have rocks in them.

In the end, don't let the internet engineers keep you up all night worrying about it. And the "fuel pump prime" thing may be the dumbest thing I have seen yet."

figsclay
09-28-2010, 10:37 AM
So you're saying this is a non-issue and doesn't need to be fixed? I just want the sound to go away because it sounds like garbage. Does this issue have a real resolution yet?

B6JoeS4
10-06-2010, 10:26 PM
2005 S4 Sedan MT6, 83,000 miles.

Rattle - Yes. for about .5 seconds at cold startups when the car sat overnight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnNUTjxLsNQ

J0HN_R1
10-07-2010, 11:04 AM
My engine is doing this now too. It's noticable on almost every cold start-up. (125,000 KMs or approx 80k miles)

* watch the whole vid, I start it twice. No noise the second time...

(for some reason there's an unknown audible "pulsing" background noise the entire vid, like a helo)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2mkTOUD1og

[:(]

SoCalS4Avant
10-07-2010, 11:57 AM
^ Sad face indeed. Sounds like an old Merc diesel.

kinnan12
10-07-2010, 02:40 PM
2004 S4 with 49,000 miles and it rattles with every start up!!
My car recently had to have the timing chain tensioner replaced on bank 2. I still hear the sound when I start it up though. I am not happy that Audi wouldnt help out with $4800 bill to pull the engine and fix the problem. Yeah my car is over the warranty by 2 years, but not over in mileage. This pissed me off because its not a serviceable part and I got screwed!

Hazziar
10-07-2010, 04:35 PM
2004 S4 with 49,000 miles and it rattles with every start up!!
My car recently had to have the timing chain tensioner replaced on bank 2. I still hear the sound when I start it up though. I am not happy that Audi wouldnt help out with $4800 bill to pull the engine and fix the problem. Yeah my car is over the warranty by 2 years, but not over in mileage. This pissed me off because its not a serviceable part and I got screwed!

Wow $4800 to replace only the bank 2 tensioner, thats absurd! The part cost $100 + 7-8hrs to install....you sure they pulled the engine for that? Its good you probably got the revised tensioner but its not going to solve the rattle, nothing will, a top notch synthetic oil will make it less pronounced but your still gonna get it.

J0HN_R1
10-07-2010, 08:51 PM
^ Sad face indeed. Sounds like an old Merc diesel.
Yeah, and the noise is starting to become audible while I'm backing up now too.

But as soon as I push the clutch in & give it a shot of gas, the noise goes away for the most part.

Yeah, sad indeed... Sad I have to deal with a$$holes who'll try to fix my engine with used parts, again...

[headbang]

kinnan12
10-08-2010, 11:18 AM
Wow $4800 to replace only the bank 2 tensioner, thats absurd! The part cost $100 + 7-8hrs to install....you sure they pulled the engine for that? Its good you probably got the revised tensioner but its not going to solve the rattle, nothing will, a top notch synthetic oil will make it less pronounced but your still gonna get it.

Yeah, they had to do a full engine pull and parts were more like $800 for that replacement. The engine pull, repair, and put back together was about 30+ hours. I had them upgrade my motor mounts and crank pulley and do valve covers while doing it, so minus a few hundred bucks from the $4800 price, but yeah...not cheap!

Barn!e
11-09-2010, 03:13 AM
We all knew buying these cars that they were not cheap. Audi had to try hard to get such a big lump into this chasis.

I had a similar problem and as I sell software and do quite well I tend to throw money at things to fix them. Audi replaced the pre tensioners and the start rattle went away. However while the engine is cold I get a different rattle that I thought was a CAT failing as it stops once she is warmed up. It is most noticeable at low revs in 2nd and 3rd gears. I am hoping its the CAT or pre CAT which gives me an excuse to get a race set fitted but it maybe this intake flap you have mentioned. Is that a DIY fix?

For those of you who dont want to spend a few thousand having the tensioners fixed, which Audi say isnt required until it gets real bad. Try Royal Purple engine oil. I tried that first and it took the rattle from 3 seconds to less than half a second. The problem is oil draining out of the tensioners, well purple is so sticky it helps this a lot. My chief Audi tech said when it gets so bad that you have to rev the engine to get rid of the noise thats when you have it fixed.

Mine is a 2003 S4 Saloon with 75k miles.

Paid £10k for the car with 65k miles.

I was using 1 litre of oil every 600 miles or so and it required;

New valve stem seals, crankcase breather system, clutch and chain pre tensioners, wheel refurb and service £3,200.

Although I am getting this rattle from the exhaust it isnt affecting performance and i am hoping it isnt the flap in the manifold as they had that out to check the valve stems leaking. Which means if I am lucky its the CAT and I have the perfect excuse for some new race high flow CATs. Has anyone else had this exhasut rattle? [headbang]

Cheers,

Barn!e

capsule
11-12-2010, 08:16 AM
Put me on the list!!!!!!!
04 sedan
84,000 miles
already had the cam tensioner replaced at 52,000 miles which was covered by the gold warranty...Now it rattles hard on cold start-up.

I just brought my car to the dealer expecting a call soon to see what the issue is.

halik
11-12-2010, 08:38 AM
Yeah, and the noise is starting to become audible while I'm backing up now too.

But as soon as I push the clutch in & give it a shot of gas, the noise goes away for the most part.

Yeah, sad indeed... Sad I have to deal with a$$holes who'll try to fix my engine with used parts, again...

[headbang]

Cam adjusters on their way out...

dmaxben
11-13-2010, 01:35 PM
2004 model year, 11/03 build date, 98k miles. On a cold start sitting overnight if you listen closely it rattles for a split second. Oh well.

I just bought it used, it said on the engine "timing belt replaced at 91k". Yes of course we all know these engines dont have timing 'belts'. So im trying to figure out what they meant when the previous owner said the "timing belt was replaced at 91k"...did he mean the serp belt was replaced? or the timing chain?

Are there any visual hints or tell-tale signs that would show evidence that the engine has ever been out of the car or not? IE, any wiring harness clips that would only have to be unclipped to pull the engine, and have obviously been messed with? If that makes sense...

Ben

SquiddyB6S4
11-14-2010, 07:03 AM
Yes, they mean "serpentine" belt, even though our "serpentine" belt only drives the alternator. Nothing obvious, other than the fact that the pulley isn't currently squeaking, and the car hasn't left you stranded due to its failure.

And it's stupid, but that rattle is normal, and if it's only for a split second, count yourself lucky. It means that you should be pretty far from having to service the timing chain components. But no guarantees, aha

dmaxben
11-14-2010, 07:19 AM
Yes, they mean "serpentine" belt, even though our "serpentine" belt only drives the alternator. Nothing obvious, other than the fact that the pulley isn't currently squeaking, and the car hasn't left you stranded due to its failure.

Thats what I figured he was talking about (wishful thinking on my part I guess, that the tensioners had been done only a short time ago by the previous owner, doh), im just surprised why he referred to it as the "timing belt"


And it's stupid, but that rattle is normal, and if it's only for a split second, count yourself lucky. It means that you should be pretty far from having to service the timing chain components. But no guarantees, aha

Oh good, I havent even owned the car 2 tankfuls (not that that will get you far) and I would hope it will be a while before I have to work on it...the labor doesnt scare me, I do all that myself, but I havent really been able to find a straight answer on what parts-alone cost is to do timing crap on the 4.2???

Ben

1000whp
12-08-2010, 08:58 AM
2005.5 S4, 41k miles. Heard the rattle for the first time 2 weeks ago after the car sitting on the drive way for ~4 days. I usually drive the car every other day so it sits there for 2 days at a time but no noticeable rattle. I will pay more attention next time now that I am aware of this.

Is the noise supposed to be loud enough for us to hear it in the car with doors and windows closed? (assuming radio not on of course)

mpower3o2
12-08-2010, 10:03 AM
Taking my car into the dealer Monday for service. They'll be taking a look at the clanking sound as well.

Hopefully they come up with something...

1000whp
12-08-2010, 03:33 PM
Taking my car into the dealer Monday for service. They'll be taking a look at the clanking sound as well.

Hopefully they come up with something...

Wouldnt they have to let the car sit for at least a day to replicate the clanking sound?

scottycali4nia
12-08-2010, 06:28 PM
2004 S4 72k miles and YES! lasts for like .5 of a sec. once every other day ish

RS41AB
12-08-2010, 07:02 PM
2006 S4 Avant stock 29,500 miles

Occasionally only when cold, maybe 1/2 second. No where near John_R1's video. So I guess right now I'm a "NO"

RS41AB

mpower3o2
12-08-2010, 08:45 PM
Wouldnt they have to let the car sit for at least a day to replicate the clanking sound?

Its staying there for the week. Other Services are going to be done as well..

Hyde
12-08-2010, 09:21 PM
I guess I'll update mine.

2005 B6. 79,000 miles. I haven't heard anything since say, March. It's been cold (for Florida ~29įF) the last few mornings, and this morning the rattle was especially apparent, though still short lived (0.5 sec). I've got 2000 miles on the current oil. I'm thinking about changing it early ...

1000whp
12-09-2010, 04:33 AM
2005 B6. 79,000 miles. I haven't heard anything since say, March. It's been cold (for Florida ~29įF) the last few mornings, and this morning the rattle was especially apparent, though still short lived (0.5 sec). I've got 2000 miles on the current oil. I'm thinking about changing it early ...

Do you use 0W40? Has it been proven that changing oil helps?

Hyde
12-09-2010, 10:43 AM
I don't, and there's no proof. It's just that I noted in January (post #10) that the noise subsided somewhat with new oil.

I might add that I heard nothing out of the ordinary this morning when temps were in the mid 30s.

danr
12-18-2010, 12:11 PM
04 S4 w/ 64k makes the noise for a sec upon the first startup of the day

BIZmikey
12-19-2010, 08:10 PM
2004 @ 101k....yes but not every time. It make me cringe when it does tho

Trevor Ely
12-24-2010, 12:43 PM
05.5 S4 Avant @ 31k : Chatters/Rattles at every cold start.

rohsco
12-31-2010, 05:55 AM
Had the same problem really rough idle on start up for maybe 15 seconds. I replaced my coolant temperature sensor & u guess problem solved.

jds4
01-01-2011, 08:39 PM
dealer here in md says it's normal

zigzag1
01-29-2011, 06:02 PM
04 S4 79K. 10/03 build tensioner and other parts replaced 5,800 out of my pocket.

Axel-
01-29-2011, 06:36 PM
2006 S4 Avant with 62k miles. Happens on cold starts only for about 1 second.

twinscrew
01-30-2011, 12:04 AM
103000 yes 2004

D.Ross
01-30-2011, 06:57 AM
05.5 @ 42k - chain rattle every cold start in the winter. Intermittent in summer.

Audis4ification
01-30-2011, 11:22 PM
2004 s4 at 95k. yes. chain rattle everytime i started it for 1-2 seconds then went away. long story short it cost me $4500 to get fixed. my cam adjusters were failing.

adioman6000
02-02-2011, 01:25 PM
2005 S4 45k- Yes but only on colder days.

s6sputnik
02-03-2011, 05:07 PM
Mine just started doing this :( but then it has been colder than normal the last three days!

jhmotard
02-06-2011, 12:56 PM
2004 S4
146000 miles
YES, does not rattle when the engine is warm, moreso when it is cold or sits overnight

tew
02-06-2011, 01:41 PM
2004 S4 Avant
116,000 miles
About one second rattle if car has been sitting more than 14 or so hours all the time if cold out. When its warmer out it wont rattle. I feel like if the car didn't rev up when you started it would not rattle. The rattle starts right when it revs up past 1200 or so.

dannslc
02-06-2011, 10:18 PM
Yes. 04 S4 88,000 miles

JohnR1, Does your car sound like that on every startup?
Mine sounds similar to yours only if its been sitting for a couple days in near 0 or below 0 temps.
Otherwise its like everybody elses on cold starts(.5 secs) and no noise on warm starts.

Thanks.

jager01
02-07-2011, 03:28 AM
Yes. 04 S4 88,000 miles

JohnR1, Does your car sound like that on every startup?
Mine sounds similar to yours only if its been sitting for a couple days in near 0 or below 0 temps.
Otherwise its like everybody elses on cold starts(.5 secs) and no noise on warm starts.

Thanks.


Same, But mine has only 35k miles and does it only now and then. But I have noticed it.

lstevans
02-08-2011, 10:38 AM
I do not know about anyone else, but I cannot hear any "ringing/rattling" noise from those videos.

Naudi04
02-08-2011, 01:20 PM
Amazing how many users have posted to this old thread. I'll do an update in the excel chart one of these weekends, got to have 100+ unique cars now I'd guess.

RBSileighty
02-10-2011, 07:26 AM
05 75k mi B6 S4 Avant - Yes, but very short and only on first startup of the day and not every day (Only had the car in a very cold winter so far and running fresh 0W40 Mobil 1)

Switched to 5W40 Castrol Syn at 85k and rattle was gone... been several months and still no rattle

mark22il
02-16-2011, 06:03 PM
2005 B6 S4 73K
Have the noise for about 1 second only on cold starts but not all the time.

aks4avant
02-19-2011, 02:09 PM
2006 S4 and also hear it on random start ups, not just cold. Ive heard it's a normal sound and not to worry unless it does it all the time during operation.

Just an update, The shop that installed my supercharger switched me to Mobil 1 5w 30 and have been doing 2,500 mile intervals. I have not heard the rattle any more. The car loves Mobli 1 I guess!

czsrock1990
02-26-2011, 07:42 PM
hey guys just have a question, i have parked my s4 for this winter (thank god with 4 feet of snow) but i i check on it at least once a week and give it a start. i have noticed that i hear a small rattle when i start it up (not as dramatic as the op vid) is this just due to it being very cold and not being started a lot (what i assume). I just would rather be safe than sry. Also if that is the case should i not start it until i wait to take it out for the spring? I would think the more i cold start it the more im wearing the guides right? So i mine as well wait till i take it out right?

Jungleisland
02-27-2011, 03:51 PM
2004 B6 S4, 122,000 miles. True story:

- when purchased (at 122,000) miles, had MASSIVE rattle on startup.
- checked this forum, figured "hey, everybody has it, no biggie"
- took to dealer for other service, mentioned rattle, dealer says "oh, there's a software update that might fix that".
- me: "um yeah, right". That said, i had nothing to lose, so....
- dealer updated software. result: last 2 weeks, purrs like a kitten on startup. No matter how cold, or how long sitting: zero rattle.

- bottom line: s4 = weird car. The hottest ones are always a little crazy, you know. ;-)

tew
02-27-2011, 06:59 PM
^Well thats interesting. How much did it cost? What else did they say about it? Anything is worth a shot.

dmaxben
03-04-2011, 07:34 AM
2004 B6 S4, 122,000 miles. True story:

- when purchased (at 122,000) miles, had MASSIVE rattle on startup.
- checked this forum, figured "hey, everybody has it, no biggie"
- took to dealer for other service, mentioned rattle, dealer says "oh, there's a software update that might fix that".
- me: "um yeah, right". That said, i had nothing to lose, so....
- dealer updated software. result: last 2 weeks, purrs like a kitten on startup. No matter how cold, or how long sitting: zero rattle.

- bottom line: s4 = weird car. The hottest ones are always a little crazy, you know. ;-)

did you notice that the car cranked longer before firing after the "software update"?

Thats the ONLY thing I can think of, for a "software update" to fix the timing chain rattle.....audi simply programs the ECU to allow the engine to crank for an extra second of two (to build up oil pressure) before enabling the injectors...

ben

simplesedan99
03-04-2011, 08:41 AM
yeah i wana know how much that cost also. i would gladly pay to get that terrible noise to go away

Trevor Ely
03-04-2011, 09:10 PM
did you notice that the car cranked longer before firing after the "software update"?

Thats the ONLY thing I can think of, for a "software update" to fix the timing chain rattle.....audi simply programs the ECU to allow the engine to crank for an extra second of two (to build up oil pressure) before enabling the injectors...

ben

VERY interested!

This was a thought of mine early on...If one could simply cut the fuel at startup to build oil pressure, this would probably be a non-issue.

SquiddyB6S4
03-05-2011, 04:17 AM
Though I agree more cranking time will increase oil pressure, the noise we're hearing requires more than just some oil pressure. It takes several seconds or even minutes on some cars for the noise to go away, which tells me that it takes quite a bit of flow to fill that cavity. It probably has a really small feed hole from one of the main oil passageways. So increasing crank time a few seconds won't really help. Plus, you don't really want to crank too much without flowing oil. All your other parts will overheat what little oil is still stuck to them; they need fresh oil to stay cool, so they need the engine running.

If you were that concerned about start-up oiling, why not get an oil accumulator? That might actually have a significant enough flow to do some good, especially if you got a large one.

charliemike
03-09-2011, 03:20 PM
My 2005 did this when it first started.

Hell my 2009 Jetta Sportwagen sounds like it too (the 2.5L with the chain).

My Audi SA who I trusted told me it was normal ...

Sunny4
03-09-2011, 03:37 PM
I have received a software update as well when I mentioned it and it does crank the car longer, its have been better in the summer days but not in the winter or over more than 1 and a half day intervals.

SquiddyB6S4
03-09-2011, 06:04 PM
^I have the JHM tune, and JHM has said repeatedly that their tune includes the latest updates from Audi for the ECM. I have noticed that it takes several rotations before the engine fires up. I don't remember what it was like before the tune, but my Lexus is WAY older and has WAY more miles and is also high static compression ratio (10:1), and it fires up noticeably quicker. I'm thinking there might be a small something to this concept that they're purposely allowing the engine to build a mite of oil pressure, though I doubt I'd want it to crank much longer before firing.

pattrick02
03-10-2011, 09:36 AM
04 S4, 56k miles, YES

it happens randomly for me, soemtiems yes, sometimes no...or maybe i just can't hear it somestimes over the exhaust....i live in florida, so it only gets cold so often here....but it will do the rattling noise on warm days as well..

adioman6000
03-13-2011, 11:37 PM
I'm getting the rattle almost everytime I start the car. Should I be worried?

SquiddyB6S4
03-14-2011, 03:54 PM
I'm getting the rattle almost everytime I start the car. Should I be worried?

Not unless the rattle stays for a while. I'd say on a healthy car the rattle goes away in 20 seconds or less, but you're probably not headed for a repair unless it stays for a minute or two. Also the volume has something to do with it. When they're bad they can actually be pretty noisy. Mine is pretty quiet, and if the radio is on volume 8, you can't hear it at all.

john36
03-14-2011, 10:11 PM
04 S4 45k miles. Rattle during some cold starts for about 1-2 seconds.

scythe1969
03-21-2011, 12:14 PM
I've got a 2006 B7 S4 with 71k. The rattling started 3 days ago and seems to happen every morning so far. It's a brief 1-2 second rattle on initial startup. I'll keep and eye on the problem and maybe see about that software update from the dealer...

By the way, I found a better vid that clearly demonstrates the rattle I'm hearing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAR4CeXjDTg

adioman6000
03-22-2011, 12:42 AM
Talked to Strong Audi in Utah they have no idea what I'm talking about with a software update....

czsrock1990
04-19-2011, 01:52 PM
I have the rattle, just started this morning (died a little inside when i heard it) i cant believe that audi doesnt cover this under recall considering they know it is a specific problem and they have revised parts to correct it, seems like bs to me.

63k miles

I thought i heard that the JHM tune also cuts down on this as well

Tommster
10-06-2011, 01:09 AM
Hi, I currently drive an 2003 A4 2.0l and after the last service, started hearing this rattle that everyone is describing. last week had the hydraulic tensioner replaced with the assurances that this would solve the problem (the mechanic showed me the "old" adjustor saying that it didn't look any different to the new one i.e. no wear or damage). No Different. Read up on a few other forums that the oil filter anti-drainback valve could be the cause of oil draining from the head. Changed the oil and filter again yesterday after an engine flush, and this morning was still the same. Interesting to hear about the software updates and the longer cranking time - mine fires almost immediately.

I should also mention that we live on the East Coast of Australia and we don't go below 10 deg C here in winter.

dparm
10-06-2011, 07:38 AM
What does the 2.0T oil filter look like? On other cars the filter contains the ADBV ** on the S4 it's integrated into the housing and is not replaceable.

Tommster
10-09-2011, 05:49 AM
What does the 2.0T oil filter look like? On other cars the filter contains the ADBV ** on the S4 it's integrated into the housing and is not replaceable.

Sorry, no idea. the VAG service mechanic did the job for me.

B6JoeS4
10-09-2011, 11:17 AM
What does the 2.0T oil filter look like? On other cars the filter contains the ADBV ** on the S4 it's integrated into the housing and is not replaceable.
Same design as an S4. Only difference is it's up-side-down underneath the car

Silver B6 S4
10-09-2011, 01:04 PM
Need to change my oil, but I can't find the lubro moly that's made in Germany...

dparm
10-09-2011, 01:20 PM
Plenty of other good choices for the same or even less money...like Mobil 1 0w40.

Silver B6 S4
10-09-2011, 02:24 PM
My car has seen the same oil since 500 miles, I would hate to change to a different brand now.

dparm
10-09-2011, 02:47 PM
My car has seen the same oil since 500 miles, I would hate to change to a different brand now.

Why? Almost all of the LM products are inferior to M1 0w40. Their oils are way overpriced and overhyped. BTW you can get more varities of it from DBC Performance, eBay, Amazon, NAPA, etc.

P_Diako
10-09-2011, 03:12 PM
04 S4, 75k, no noise (crossing fingers it will stay that way)

staydin
10-09-2011, 05:01 PM
Yup, me too. About 2-3 seconds of rattles, and then its sounds like a plate engages and it goes away. Only on clod starts.

Bought the car with 40k miles, and noticed it around 50k miles. Was few and far between. Now its almost every cold start, and I have 65k on it...does that mean at 75k miles the engine will spin out of the engine bay?

Is this fix as simple as a software update, it sounds so mechanical?

dparm
10-09-2011, 05:31 PM
Yup, me too. About 2-3 seconds of rattles, and then its sounds like a plate engages and it goes away. Only on clod starts.

Bought the car with 40k miles, and noticed it around 50k miles. Was few and far between. Now its almost every cold start, and I have 65k on it...does that mean at 75k miles the engine will spin out of the engine bay?

Is this fix as simple as a software update, it sounds so mechanical?


See this:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/450179-Hey-guys-can-we-talk-about-the-start-up-rattle-for-a-sec?p=6921996&viewfull=1#post6921996

S4SHOES
10-15-2011, 10:34 AM
an extremely reputable mech. in my area that strictly works on audi/vw and is factory trained said its an extremely common problem with these engines
says its definitely the chain tensioner/guides and is extremely expensive to fix but says he doesnt recommend doing the repair
he explained the symptoms down to a T: car sitting more than 6 hours, 1-3 seconds of rattle on start up

andream88
11-28-2011, 10:41 PM
Try removing the fuel pump fuse, cranking the car with no fuel for a few seconds, then restarting it with the fuse back in place: no rattle.

It's just a matter of tensioners and lifters building up oil pressure.

Fade2Black
12-15-2011, 04:56 PM
My car was sitting over the weekend until yesterday and when I started I thought it was going to die. It's been great but the initial startup was brutal, hope it was a fluke.


Sent from the iPhone

tdimaxima
12-30-2011, 07:48 AM
Hey guys, Im still confused what problem if any I have. When I start the car, even if its in the garage, it makes a whining noise as long as the RPM's are above normal warm idle. Soon as the RPM's drop, its quiet. It will always last the duration of the RPMS above idle. Definately not a rattle. Any thoughts?

jhmotard
12-30-2011, 08:09 AM
the whining noise could just be the straight cut gearset to drive the a/c compressor, this is a normal noise with any straight cut gears.

OR

could be your serpentine belt tensioner/idler pulley going bad. this requires you to remove the bumper but since its off you should replace the belt/tensioner/idler pulley and you could also replace the snub mount($30) and possibly the lightened flywheel from JHM

could you post a video???

tdimaxima
12-30-2011, 09:18 AM
It sounds exactly like that youtube video of the guy complaining about the rattle (which I heard briefly) I assume he is complaining about rattle and not the whine.

tdimaxima
12-30-2011, 09:26 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xAR4CeXjDTg

I dont have rattle, just the whine you hear.... I guess she normal. Thanks.

jhmotard
12-30-2011, 10:31 AM
Yup normal.

c13h18n2
12-30-2011, 08:34 PM
I just bought an '04. It makes the noise. 85k miles.

Just in this thread, I've noticed people mentioning that the noise went away after adding lucas or just changing the oil. I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and guess that perhaps the level of viscosity of the new oil and especially those engine saver additives results in a much slower flow back down after the engine is shut off (See: definition of viscosity). Therefore, during the brief period of time when the oil is being broken in, it remains in the motor longer and the oil pump doesn't have to make a racket working over time to pump oil up as Audi essentially described it. Also, the nature of the noise (being that it's coming from the oil pump (assuming that's true)) kinda reminds me of a motor running without a prime or whatever. Like a motor that requires a work load to keep it running smoothly and from over revving. Does oil drain from the pump?

F.Y.I. The concept of a break in period for motor oil which I previously insinuated is based on nothing except my own imagination and speculation. Also, I only read the first three pages of this thread. If someone else already posted this same hypothesis; I am sorry for being redundant.

SquiddyB6S4
12-31-2011, 08:06 AM
I just bought an '04. It makes the noise. 85k miles.

Just in this thread, I've noticed people mentioning that the noise went away after adding lucas or just changing the oil. I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and guess that perhaps the level of viscosity of the new oil and especially those engine saver additives results in a much slower flow back down after the engine is shut off (See: definition of viscosity). Therefore, during the brief period of time when the oil is being broken in, it remains in the motor longer and the oil pump doesn't have to make a racket working over time to pump oil up as Audi essentially described it. Also, the nature of the noise (being that it's coming from the oil pump (assuming that's true)) kinda reminds me of a motor running without a prime or whatever. Like a motor that requires a work load to keep it running smoothly and from over revving. Does oil drain from the pump?

F.Y.I. The concept of a break in period for motor oil which I previously insinuated is based on nothing except my own imagination and speculation. Also, I only read the first three pages of this thread. If someone else already posted this same hypothesis; I am sorry for being redundant.

I'm surprised that in the first three pages, nobody said that the real culprit here is the cam adjusters and cam chain tensioners requiring oil pressure to operate, and so the engine has to run for a few seconds to build the pressure they need and drive out the air in them.

Also, PLEASE do not add Lucas or any other "engine saver additives" (read: sarcastic as all hell) to your engine. The big oil companies spend BILLIONS of dollars on R&D. If it was really better, they'd have that stuff in their oil already. It's not better.

c13h18n2
12-31-2011, 10:29 AM
I'm surprised that in the first three pages, nobody said that the real culprit here is the cam adjusters and cam chain tensioners requiring oil pressure to operate, and so the engine has to run for a few seconds to build the pressure they need and drive out the air in them.

Isn't that basically Audi's explanation?


Also, PLEASE do not add Lucas or any other "engine saver additives" (read: sarcastic as all hell) to your engine. The big oil companies spend BILLIONS of dollars on R&D. If it was really better, they'd have that stuff in their oil already. It's not better.

I pretty much completely agree. Same with tire siping imo. If it was better, tires would just come siped already from the manufacturer. I believe it could improve traction but not that it improves tire life by reducing heat. In fact, I bet it reduces tire life.

SquiddyB6S4
01-01-2012, 06:51 AM
Isn't that basically Audi's explanation?

I don't think Audi has an official explanation other than "it's normal". But I can't imagine anything else; at least, nothing else that I can think of makes any sense.

mimalik
02-07-2012, 06:45 PM
Hi Guys,
Please look at the video and suggest possible solution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBxoPelQC9w

Car: Audi A4 B6 with Engine code ALT
Milage: 88k
History: Rattle noise started happening after I got 90K service from Audi, new oil Castrol SLXiii 5W30 was put in the car and software was updated at the time of service.
Cam Chain and Tensioner already replaced but it doesn't make any difference. I changed the oil again from 5W30 to 5W40 but still the noise is there.

I've been told that it may be because Oil Pick up screen is blocked - but I am not convinced because car is not indicating any low Oil Pressure situation. I was also told that it could be because of Cam Adjuster but following TSB is saying otherwise:

Technical Service Bulletin Transaction No.: 2010294/5
Rattle/knocking noise from camshaft adjuster at engine start
Release date: Nov 21, 2008
....
Service
Do not replace the Camshaft Tensioner(s) or Camshaft Adjuster(s) for a noise concern as described above.
Replacing the Camshaft Tensioner(s) or Camshaft Adjuster(s) will not eliminate this noise.

Can anybody suggest potential solution to this problem? I read something about doing something with the software to sort out the issue, does anybody had any success with that?

Kenji
02-12-2012, 05:13 PM
2004 S4 with 89,450 miles.

Recently it has been having a stumble or miss without engine codes. I am not sure what it is yet, but will repost with details, I think it is related to the above mentioned. Last night on a slightly higher than speed limit drive for about 20 mins, the car begun to stumble for the duration of the night and has excessive carbon build up one the drivers side tail pipe only...

Renga
02-13-2012, 08:59 AM
Rattle noise gone after oilchange.

S4 -06 80000 km

From the 4.2-Liter V8-5V Engine Deisign and Function Self study .pdf
http://152.66.93.29/audi/download/vw/Engine/4200cc%20V8%205V%20Design.pdf

"Engine Start
The adjusting piston is locked until
sufficient oil pressure has built up. This
prevents vibrations in the chain drive and,
therefore, noise generation."

mlittleton
03-19-2012, 08:43 PM
Great thread. I'm calling my Audi dealer to check into TSB 2017369/3 tomorrow.

maskinut
03-20-2012, 01:26 AM
2004 b6 made rattling noise since 45k range, probably even before. Dealership kept telling me it was normal. Car is at 110k now and I have been having a hard time selling it as no one wants to buy a car that makes that noise. Now, i am getting a blinking CEL and dealer is suggesting cam adjuster replacement to the tune of 3500. Not sure if they are related but this noise is basically a resale KILLER and is going to prevent me from getting anything remotely close to blue book.

crazy to think that my best option is to trade it in on a new S4, something I can't believe I would consider after listening to the b6 engine slap around for the last 6 years. Meh. Best part was when the dealer once tried to charge me $100 box to diagnose the noise as normal. The car was in for an oil change anyway and I said, did you need to start the car to drive it in for the change? A: yes. great then you didn't need to diagnose anything to tell me it sounded normal on startup.


Aside form this major problem, it's been a great car. Just wish I could sell if for even half bluebook so I could get a new one. Decisions.... to fix or not to fix.

SquiddyB6S4
03-20-2012, 05:34 PM
Hey, you got 100k miles out of her. $3500 sounds low, honestly (they should be doing a full timing set change, since other parts may fail soon, like chain tensioners). But for probably $6k-$8k, you'll likely have another 100k miles out of her. Or you could spend $50k on a new S4 and get another 100k miles, and sell yours for what, $10k?. The new S4 isn't $32k better than the one you have. ($50k-$10k-$8k=$32k) Most of the rest of the car is pretty good at going the distance. I say keep it and love it some more. Big engines in small, practical, non-flashy cars with six-speed manuals were rare in 2004, and seem to be going extinct.

mlittleton
03-21-2012, 12:39 PM
Ok so a few days ago I heard for the first time the rattling noise during cold start. This also coincided with a low oil warning. I added about 1/2 a quart then started her back up, still got the rattle/clank etc. Added the rest of the quart, checked dipstick and level was good. Started the next day and still got the rattle/clank. Concern rises a bit. Started it about 5 or 6 more times before heading to the dealer today to get an oil change and ECU flash from TSB 2017369/3. None of these starts produced the rattle/clank that they had before giving me the impression my issue may have just been that the engine is VERY picky about being even a little low on oil (not much of a surprise here).

After discussing at length with my service advisor and mechanic at Jim Ellis Audi in Marietta, they said this TSB does not apply to my ECU/Engine Model. I asked if there were any ECU updates for my model S4 and they said no. Interesting. No noises yet after my oil change and I confirmed they use manufacturer recommended Castrol 5W-40 Synthetic. I'll report back if I start to hear the noise again.

p.s. It was also pure torture while sitting in the waiting room right next to the showroom seeing all the beautiful new Audi's while waiting. I love the A3's, love the Q5's, Love the S5's, Love the new S4's and I won't even mention the 170k R8 that just made me drool with it's v10 and CF trim abound. Mmmmm.... Even so, I got quite a few compliments from the service guys on my ol' 2006. They still love the v8!

maskinut
03-21-2012, 11:49 PM
I expect a bit more out of a 55k car. That next 100k will cost 30k to keep running if the first 100k maintenance and repair history is any guide. On the positive, 70-110k had been pretty uneventful)

b spot
03-23-2012, 03:55 PM
Hi Guys,
Please look at the video and suggest possible solution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBxoPelQC9w

Car: Audi A4 B6 with Engine code ALT
Milage: 88k
History: Rattle noise started happening after I got 90K service from Audi, new oil Castrol SLXiii 5W30 was put in the car and software was updated at the time of service.
Cam Chain and Tensioner already replaced but it doesn't make any difference. I changed the oil again from 5W30 to 5W40 but still the noise is there.

I've been told that it may be because Oil Pick up screen is blocked - but I am not convinced because car is not indicating any low Oil Pressure situation. I was also told that it could be because of Cam Adjuster but following TSB is saying otherwise:

Technical Service Bulletin Transaction No.: 2010294/5
Rattle/knocking noise from camshaft adjuster at engine start
Release date: Nov 21, 2008
....
Service
Do not replace the Camshaft Tensioner(s) or Camshaft Adjuster(s) for a noise concern as described above.
Replacing the Camshaft Tensioner(s) or Camshaft Adjuster(s) will not eliminate this noise.

Can anybody suggest potential solution to this problem? I read something about doing something with the software to sort out the issue, does anybody had any success with that?


Anyone had any luck with this? Before I drop $156 trying it I'm curious if there is any odds of this helping.

PS I hate dealers:

"$156 for diagnosis and one hour of labor"
"well can't I just get the flash and see if it works?"
"We need to diagnose first to see if you need it"
"well how about we just flash it and find out after"
"Ok if that's what you want"

atticus183
05-13-2012, 07:34 PM
Well, I had this issue too with my 2005 Audi S4. The dealership put in M1 0W-40 which made it worse over time. I did some research and found some people saying Motul fixed this problem. I was a little skeptical that just using a different oil could cure this problem. I bought some Motul Specific 5W-40 and changed my oil. The sound was gone the next day and hasnt reoccured yet. Amazing! So relieved!!!

S4fun
05-15-2012, 03:33 PM
08 S4, 42.9K miles, no rattle

seany260
05-29-2012, 04:39 PM
Hello, New to the site.
Late 2005 s4 b7 45k
And yes rattle loud on first start up of the day and can be heard a little if left sitting for an hour or so.

From the UK running castrol edge 5w-30

mlittleton
05-29-2012, 09:28 PM
So I still get the rattle briefly every few starts. Love this car but do dread the timing service. May have to unload it before it comes :(

abe
05-30-2012, 08:24 AM
I now have 45K on my S4 Avant. No rattle. HOWEVER, if I park it on an incline such that the nose is down, so to speak, and re-start it within a few minutes of turning it off, occasionally I'll get the rattle. I don't really want to test it out as it's quite random and I figure less damage is better. It's parked in a level garage every night and I've never heard the rattle when starting it.

seany260
05-30-2012, 12:54 PM
audi s4 rattle;5199675]2004 S4, 54K miles....ive been hearing this loud rattling noise in my engine start up for atleast 10k miles. definitely is worse during the winter months. Please keep everyone informed about the software update so we can go to our local dealerships for the update![/QUOTE]


Just an update, The shop that installed my supercharger switched me to Mobil 1 5w 30 and have been doing 2,500 mile intervals. I have not heard the rattle any more. The car loves Mobli 1 I guess!

What oil were you running before, as I am currently running castrol edge 5w-30 and I get the rattle on startup. Might consider changing to Mobil 1 if it may improve the rattle. Note I'm in the UK so temperatures will be different.

ridethebigone
05-30-2012, 04:41 PM
2005 B6 S4, 64k, rattle


"Engine Start
The adjusting piston is locked until
sufficient oil pressure has built up. This
prevents vibrations in the chain drive and,
therefore, noise generation."

I'm not worried. If it's rattling at 4,000rpm in 2nd, then I'll start shitting my pants all over the Alcantara [poop]

Dcass08
05-30-2012, 05:03 PM
I have an 06 with 103 K and I have only had a bad noise on startup once. It sounded like it was a deep rumble as if the exhaust was off or something. I do have an exhaust rattle that's pretty annoying until it gets up to temp then it goes away. I'm going to adjust and reclamp the exhaust sometime soon and see if that fixes it.

I have a 06, 85000km. After sitting for more than a day it makes a bad noise at startup... I don't like it. But I'm not dropping the motor to fix it. Despite all the talk about those rear timing chains nobody seems to have issues with them failing. At some point my motor will come out to do a Stg 3 clutch and LT headers (hell who knows, maybe twin turbo instead now, thanks JHM) but at this point I still am not sure if I will do any service on the timing chain, guides, or Tensioners. JHMs car has twice the miles on it as mine, gets driven hard, and as far as I know they haven't done anything about it. I'm sure it has the same noise, it seems to affect all of them after a certain number of miles.

mlittleton
05-31-2012, 10:26 PM
I have an 06 with 103 K and I have only had a bad noise on startup once. It sounded like it was a deep rumble as if the exhaust was off or something. I do have an exhaust rattle that's pretty annoying until it gets up to temp then it goes away. I'm going to adjust and reclamp the exhaust sometime soon and see if that fixes it.

Damn I like hearing this considering your over 100k miles. Are you on stock exhaust?

8cylinders
09-12-2012, 12:48 AM
04 100k miles, yes only when cold

yObOyGeo
09-12-2012, 01:48 AM
2004 S4 98000, 1 out of an impressive 10 cold starts I hear a rattle for a quick second.
Brought it to the dealer twice and both times after leaving it on the lot for close to 24 hrs didn't rattle .. Guy thought I was crazy

anthonyisd3ad
09-12-2012, 10:17 AM
I hear chain rattle every time I start the car. I bought the car from my mechanic who assured me the previous owner (his partner) changed the timing components about a year or 2 ago. If I start the car I will hear chain rattle every time unless its been off for about 30 seconds to a minute. Within 3 minutes the chain rattle is back. A few people on this forum said it isn't an issue to worry about now but idk what I can do to fix this. It is extremely annoying and its beating the shit out of my guides

vdubjetta02
09-12-2012, 10:53 AM
05 with 52,000.... has never rattled.... ever... thank god

Diesel_A4
09-16-2012, 06:04 PM
Have a 2005, that I purchased with around 87K on it. Rattle was BAD...rattled for MORE than a few seconds, very loudly...paid a shop a good deal of money for repairs for everything mentioned that we all know about...get the car back..and you guessed, it still rattles. Granted its just for a millisecond, but regardless...it still does it on cold start ups

8cylinders
09-18-2012, 12:43 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4qj5AYc3OA

http://i.imgur.com/dVLc1.gif

KAL
12-30-2012, 05:12 PM
With it getting colder out I'm noticing the rattling is taking longer to go away. It seems to me from what I've read that it isn't too much to worry about and I think what c13h18n2 said about oil viscosity makes sense. But its good to ask, has anyone had their timing components fail on them after hearing this noise?

Dirtracer603
12-31-2012, 10:34 AM
Yes, many people wind up having timing components fail at some point. In a nutshell, the noise is due to tolerances not being met during start-up which stresses certain components.

Audi2.7what
01-01-2013, 09:24 AM
2004 98,000 miles just did timing job

The Councilman
01-15-2013, 10:11 PM
Add me to this list :(.. just about every cold start now where car sits for a few hours and engine cools off some.. really got frequent towards the end of this past oil change cycle. Just changed the oil, sound has lessened considerably.

use m1 0w-40
from PA
67,000 miles

Dirtracer603
01-16-2013, 10:35 AM
I made my own oil pressure accumulator/reservoir that has stopped the cold start rattle completely. It is temporary until I can figure out how I want to tackle the root of the issue.

The Councilman
01-16-2013, 11:48 AM
Isn't there a unit that can be purchased that's been posted here on the forum. Just for my own personal sanity I'm going to have my mechanic friend look and hear it just to make sure it isn't something more. Damn audis ;)

Sijones
01-16-2013, 02:18 PM
Yes...04 with 84k miles. Startup rattle 2 seconds...makes me cringe...

cheetah993
01-16-2013, 05:19 PM
04 S4, 80k miles, very bad noise, check engine light for both camshaft banks, dealership confirmed timing is off due to broken tensioners they presume. Called Audi of America and was told it was normal wear on a timing chain system at 80k miles... Sure it is I have had cars last over 200k miles on the same chain.. that is why they use them.

They also refused to help with the 6k repair bill for a car that was 55k new... Really makes you want to purchase another car from them IMO.

The Councilman
01-16-2013, 08:06 PM
I really think somebody with money to burn and a score to settle is going to sue over this eventually. I don't know how you could defend engine part failures like this

cheetah993
01-17-2013, 08:06 AM
If I had the money for lawyer fees, I would sue their ass now, I really lost a lot of respect for Audi/VW. It is an issue, they know it but they just ignore it. I was asking for assistance with the repair meaning I was willing to pay half the bill for a engineering error they made and they still wouldn't do it instead they offered me a discount on a new car. I told them the discount is more then I was asking for to fix this one, and if I cannot afford 6k easily, how could I afford a new car payment plus this one? Also why would you want to buy another car from a company that cannot stand behind someone who has never purchased anything but Audi/VW's ever? I gave them all of the oil change receipts and mileage I recorded. I am the second owner of the car, and it is not abused. They say it is a small percentage of people that have this issue, but it seems like everywhere I look eventually it is a problem for everyone. For anyone to say that it should be acceptable wear on an engine that has a 10qt sump needs to rethink that. The cold start rattle is something that shouldn't happen, with a sump like this it is not a secret that pressure bleeds off, and they should have put either check valve balls in the tensioners, or if that did not work, they should have put something like an accusump pump on it from the factory. Also, the price of the parts alone if this is a normal wear item should not cost you an arm and a leg.

Honestly if I purchased this car new for 55k and had this issue out of warranty with less then 100k miles and was then told that it was an older car so there isn't much they could do, I would be even more upset then I am.

hungryhippo
01-17-2013, 10:18 AM
On a positive note, I love German cars, but there's no way I would ever buy one new. I think it's great that that I can buy one that's only a few years old for 1/4 of the price of new [cool]

skeelo
01-17-2013, 10:29 AM
On a positive note, I love German cars, but there's no way I would ever buy one new. I think it's great that that I can buy one that's only a few years old for 1/4 of the price of new [cool]

Depending on which model line you're looking at this may be true, but S and RS cars hold their value very well. Case in point, the least expensive CPO'd Audi S4 on the US site is listed for $28k and is a 2008 w/ 60k miles. Original MSRP was probably in the neighborhood of $50k which puts the current price at 56% of original MSRP. Not many five year old cars going for 56% of original MSRP at this point...

Back to the thread at hand though. I had a B6 S4 with the same horrible coffee grinder sound at 55k miles. I ended up trading it in on a new GTI a few years back when given the "that's normal" run around. It pains me to think of possibly being stuck w/ a $4-6k repair bill (Indy shops in MN can have quoted local enthusiasts at ~$4k).

BlackSfour
03-26-2013, 05:29 PM
Ive got a 2005 S4 with 61k miles. I hear it on cold starts only when the car has been sitting over night. I hear the noise for half a second or less. (never owned car in warm months)

my 2 cents: The way the engine is designed the oil has the ability to bleed back into the sump. the longer it sits the more bleeds out. When you start it the oil rushes to the chains/tensioners area and the sound is gone. Ive had the car for less than 3k miles. I think on my next two oil changes im going to try a thicker oil. maybe it wont bleed and the sound wont happen. Then ill try a thinner oil where the oil can rush to the area (almost instantaneously) and hopefully eliminate the sound. has anyone had any experience with thinner/thicker oil helping the problem? I dont think its a big deal, really. Especially seeing that this has not caused any catastrophic failers, *knock on wood* I've read most of this thread and found that people are finding differences in outside temperature.. think about it.. the warmer oil moves quicker. So wouldnt thinner/thicker eliminate the problem and eliminate the temperature variable?

again im just a newb to german cars, just my 2 cents :)

lathdogg
03-26-2013, 06:28 PM
Do some more searching and reading(in my non asshole voice)...if I remember correctly the "thicker oil to cure startup rattle" has been debated/discussed in depth. Also, people have had complete timing system overhauled and still have cold start rattle. Walmart has 5qt jugs of Mobil 1 0w40 for $25(period)

paul61
03-26-2013, 06:38 PM
04 S4, 78K.
Rattle on cold start for less than a second.
Switched to Mobil1 0W-40 deffinately reduced the rattle time.
I'm assuming this is due to the thinner oil (cold)?
BTW.....it's $11.95 / qrt, here in Canada (Jesus H. Christ, what a rip off) :0(

KAL
03-26-2013, 07:02 PM
04 S4, 78K.
Rattle on cold start for less than a second.
Switched to Mobil1 0W-40 deffinately reduced the rattle time.
I'm assuming this is due to the thinner oil (cold)?
BTW.....it's $11.95 / qrt, here in Canada (Jesus H. Christ, what a rip off) :0(

06 A6 4.2 with chain timing, approx. 101k miles
Started end of last summer, small rattles, changed to the good Motul stuff 5w-40 in December and it sort of got worse, then again the temperature has decreased since then and only recently has it been rising.
Looking into getting an Accusump system. But first I'm going to try Mobil 1's 0w-40. 12$ a quart in Canada so I'm making the hour drive to the boarder to pick up 2 jugs for 50$ this weekend! hoping it will reduce this rattle considerably.

Dcass08
03-27-2013, 04:22 AM
04 S4, 78K.
Rattle on cold start for less than a second.
Switched to Mobil1 0W-40 deffinately reduced the rattle time.
I'm assuming this is due to the thinner oil (cold)?
BTW.....it's $11.95 / qrt, here in Canada (Jesus H. Christ, what a rip off) :0(
Holy crap. They say the US is on track to become the worlds largest oil producer in a couple years. You guys should be asking for a discount on that stuff!