Audi FSI Engine Carbon Build-up Megathread [Archive]

MrPerfect

01-06-2010, 07:32 AM

This thread serves to index all the threads related to carbon build-up in the intake manifold of Audi FSI engines of -any- model. It's just here as a place holder index of these threads as a requisite of judging scope of the problem and raising awareness. Please read the threads for more details of this problem...

I've tried to tag content as much as possible. With either PICS where there is photographic evidence or CONCERN where there is discussion surrounding concern of the issue.

B7/B8 A4:
Carbon Build up cleaning?? (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=316591) CONCERN
Carbon Buildup (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=298455) PICS
BG44k for controlling carbon buildup ... (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=327289) CONCERN
Carbon Buildup ** tech start, not whining (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333369) CONCERN
Carbon Build Up - 2008 Audi A4 3.2L (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337932) EXPERIENCE
Audi = carbon buildup?!? (http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/audi/191626-audi-carbon-buildup.html) CONCERN EXTERNAL
Need input / carbon buildup on intake valves (http://audiforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113568) EXPERIENCE EXTERNAL
2.0T FSI Carbon build up. (http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothread?id=3600027&page=1) PICS EXTERNAL
Theory on combating carbon buildup: (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?340160-Theory-on-combating-carbon-buildup) CONCERN
Redline Speed Worx: Cylinder Head Carbon Build Up Sea Foam Service Limitations (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?344952-Redline-Speed-Worx-Cylinder-Head-Carbon-Build-Up-Sea-Foam-Service-Limitations) PICS
carbon build up question (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?354910-carbon-build-up-question) CONCERN
Carbon Build Up (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?353981-Carbon-Build-Up) CONCERN
Shell fuel for B8 2.0T ? (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?352820-Shell-fuel-for-B8-2.0T) CONCERN
2007 Audi A4 3.2FSI - @ 147k carbon/deposit buildup (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?349022-2007-Audi-A4-3.2FSI-147k-carbon-deposit-buildup) PICS

S4 3.0:
Direct Injection and build-up issues (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322964) CONCERN
Catch Can (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317004) CONCERN

A5/S5:
S5 FSI engines doomed due to intake manifold carbon build-up ? (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=336187) CONCERN
Audi A5 3.2 v6 FSI - carbon issues? (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1546059) CONCERN EXTERNAL
Carbon Build up at 35K (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?347834-Carbon-Build-up-at-35K) PICS

A6 3.2:
Carbon buildup CEL TSB Update (http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?p=23943182) EXPERIENCE EXTERNAL

RS4:
RS4: Intake Manifold Carbon Build-Up & Clean Up (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=334489) PICS
RS4: ** PART 2 ** Intake Manifold Carbon Build-Up & Clean U (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=335616) PICS
RS4 only 263whp flat from 6k rpm ?!?! (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322587) PICS
Sea Foam useage? (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=328971) CONCERN
Cost to Clean Carbon? (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=307198) CONCERN
My RS4 under the knife... (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=297492) PICS
Fuel adatives.... (http://rs246.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=75737&postdays=0&postorder=asc) PICS EXTERNAL
RS4 owners READ this! (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=270388) CONCERN
RS4 Owners Step in. What I feel to be very important. It's a long read. (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=280190) CONCERN
Need help, RS4 in shop for MILs, how does valve cleaning get authorized? (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=278951) CONCERN
Dyno after port, polish, manifold flap removal (http://forums.quattroworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/19472.phtml) PICS EXTERNAL
Dyno info for the day... (http://forums.quattroworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/20531.phtml) PICS EXTERNAL
***** Official Carbon Build-Up Thread ***** (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=336570) POLL
Carbon Build-up 101? (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=338349) CONCERN
KryptoniK's RS4 PES S/C Build (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337790) PICS
2008 RS4 Carbon buildup (http://audiforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=120602) EXPERIENCE EXTERNAL
FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1325647) PICS EXTERNAL
RS4 B7 Carbon Buildup (http://www.ozaudi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24711) CONCERN EXTERNAL
Update on carbon cleaning.... (http://forums.quattroworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/22625.phtml) EXPERIENCE EXTERNAL
My RS4 Carbon Build-up Story (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=339784) PICS
RS4 Supercharger Project Has Started Pics (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=340118) PICS
RS4 carbon cleaning finished !!!!!!! (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=342116) EXPERIENCE PICS
RS4 Piston Damage from Carbon Build-up (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?349460-RS4-Piston-Damage-from-Carbon-Build-up) PICS
RS4 : to prevent carbon build up, i think this product will work. (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?356204-RS4-to-prevent-carbon-build-up-i-think-this-product-will-work.) CONCERN
RS4 inspected by AOA for CB (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?355366-RS4-inspected-by-AOA-for-CB) EXPERIENCE
my RS4 needs help (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?351990-my-RS4-needs-help) CONCERN
Throwin' Codes at 9900 miles - 2008 RS4 (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?360206-Throwin-Codes-at-9900-miles-2008-RS4) EXPERIENCE
Thinking of buying an RSs4. Does it have carbon problems (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?365028-Thinking-of-buying-an-RSs4.-Does-it-have-carbon-problems) CONCERN
B6 S4 paid off... 20K to put down on used Rs4 with lower miles.. Cant do it! (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?363926-B6-S4-paid-off...-20K-to-put-down-on-used-Rs4-with-lower-miles..-Cant-do-it!) CONCERN
My RS4 dyno numbers... (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/370431-My-RS4-dyno-numbers...) PICS

R8 4.2:
FSI Carbon Buildup (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=334623) CONCERN

TT Mk2:
carbon buildup problem with TFSI - serious worry (http://www.tt-forum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&p=1644257) CONCERN EXTERNAL

You can PM me any additions you have to keep the thread clean if you like..

How Direct Injection (FSI) Works
I was sent the following videos that do an excellent job of describing how direct injection works. They're mostly technology promo shorts that completely ignore the downside of build-up but still good overviews. For the non-tech inclined, the difference between what these videos describe and "standard" port injection is that in port injection, fuel enters the through the intake valves giving a cleansing effect to any build-up (from the exhaust recirculation) that may be there. Thanks to Andyuk911 for these links!

Bosche Promo (for the same management unit found in the RS4) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqZXyHp9cPk)
ASNU (injector diagnostic manufacturer) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53nvZzlaIKA)
GM Promo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd90yHlmfS4)

Problem Synopsis
The general consensus is that the build-up that forms under normal operation can decrease engine power within a relatively low amount of milage. Most anecdotal evidence shows that when the intake valves are cleaned, engine returns to spec-rated horsepower and torque. This build-up is thought to affect power in as little as 10,000 miles though few people have routinely removed their intake manifolds to document the build-up progress.

Variables
A wide-range of variables have been included in reports of build-up. A common theme is that this occurs despite tier 1 fuel and Audi recommended oils. Reports have also come in from all over the world, suggesting it's not localized to any particular region's fuel, environment or emission standards.

Indicators
Severe cases of build-up can potentially trip misfire CEL codes though in most cases, the car simply produces less power and does not indicate malfunction. Those that have cleaned their intake manifolds explain a burst of acceleration under WOT at 6k RPMs (2nd gear)(applies to RS4/R8 4.2). Dyno results for affected cars seem to be anywhere up to 40hp below quoted stock HP on the 4.2 V8 FSI engine.

Solutions
To remove build-up, only a manual physical cleaning of the intake valves and vanes has shown to be able to completely remove the carbon of which Audi will not warrant unless there are continual misfires occuring. To prevent the issue from reoccurring, oil catch cans are the most frequently raised potential solution in addition to methanol injection. At least one thread has cited both of these systems were in-use and build-up still occurred.

There are a number of temporary cleaning solutions that are available. The effectiveness of these has not been discussed. Some of these include: BG 44k (http://www.bgprod.com/products/fuelair.html) and Direct Injection Power 3 (http://www.wynns.be/news.aspx?l=EN&isectionid=49&iarticleid=282). Audi's solution is a fuel additive to clean the injector ports, though this has been shown to have little to no effect on carbon build-up on the intake valves.

Audi has not yet acknowledged the extent of the carbon build-up problem. There is a letter that has been created by a forum member to Audi in this thread:

Official Letter to Audi of America Executive Vice President...Thoughts? (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?347913-Official-Letter-to-Audi-of-America-Executive-Vice-President...Thoughts)

ahhhudi

01-06-2010, 11:22 AM

This was much needed. Thank you.

I would imagine they are having issues also in the new A6... but maybe not enough people on the zine with that model A6 to bring up the problem.

calexs

01-06-2010, 01:21 PM

I have an A5 with the 3.2. I assume that engine is affected like the others.

Ryan_T

01-06-2010, 10:45 PM

Very good. Thanks.

NWS4Guy

01-06-2010, 11:07 PM

Very nice compilation, thanks for getting this all together in one place!

RS4POWER

01-06-2010, 11:44 PM

I am requesting that this thread becomes a sticky.

More and more members that own or are looking to own (T)FSI cars are concerned with carbon build up and its effects.

If anyone has been through this ordeal and has photos or any info related carbon build up, this is the place to post such.

You can also post if you have done something which has minimized or even eliminated CB.

Those that have already had their intake manifold removed and discovered CB should post the following:

Vehicle Make/Model.
Location: What state/country the car was driven primarily.
Mileage/Date in which CB was discovered.
Oil used.
Oil Change Interval.
Fuel Used.
How short/long are your trips on average.

Before I post my info, this is how VW/Audi feels about it:

VW patent acknowledging the intake valve deposit issue

Directly from the technical staff of VAG is complete acknowledgment of the FSI intake valve deposit issue, and it's impacts, including: decreased performance, misfires, catalytic converter damage ... etc.

"Gasoline engines with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber, i.e., not into the intake port, suffer especially from the problem of the formation of carbon deposits on components. Carbon deposits form especially in the neck region of intake valves. A more exact analysis of how these carbon deposits form leads to the following result: Oil and fuel constituents first form a sticky coating on the components. These constituents are chiefly long-chain and branched-chain hydrocarbons, i.e., the low-volatility components of oil and fuel. Aromatic compounds adhere especially well. This sticky base coating serves as a base for the deposition of soot particles. This results in a porous surface, in which oil and fuel particles in turn become embedded. This process is a circular process, by which the coating thickness of the carbon deposits continuously increases. Especially in the area of the intake valves, the deposits originate from blowby gases and from internal and external exhaust gas recirculation, and in this process, the blowby gasses and the recirculated exhaust gas come into direct contact with the intake valve."

"Especially in the area of the neck of the intake valves, excessive carbon deposits have extremely negative effects for the following reasons: In the case of Otto direct injectors, the successful ignition of the stratified charge depends to a great extent on the correct development of the internal cylinder flow, which ensures reliable transport of the injected fuel to the spark plug to guarantee reliable ignition at the spark plug. However, a coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve may interfere so strongly with the tumble flow that ignition failures may occur there as a result. Under certain circumstances, however, ignition failures can lead to irreversible damage of a catalytic converter installed in the exhaust gas tract for purifying the exhaust gas. Furthermore, the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve causes flow resistance, which can lead to significant performance losses due to insufficient cylinder filling, especially in the upper load and speed range of the internal combustion engine. In addition, the carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve may prevent correct valve closing, which leads to compression losses and thus sporadic ignition failures. This in turn could irreversibly damage the catalytic converter. There is the potential for small particles to break away from the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve and get into the catalytic converter. These hot particles may then cause secondary reaction and corresponding local damage of the catalytic converter. For example, a hole may be burned in the structure of the catalytic converter."

"Globular deposits are found especially on the valve stem downstream from a partition plate in the intake port. Due to the dripping of high-boiling hydrocarbons from the partition plate towards the valve neck or valve stem, globular carbon deposits eventually form there by the sequence of events explained above. These deposits on the valve stem can result in flow deficits due to undesired swirling and turbulent flow around the globular carbon deposits. This may persistently interfere with the formation of stable tumble flow from cycle to cycle."

"A possible solution would be to keep these sources of deposits away, for example, from the intake valve, by completely eliminating exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port. However with the combustion behavior of modern reciprocating internal combustion engines, at least external exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port are absolutely necessary for reasons of emission control and fuel consumption, so that this approach is not possible. "
__________________________________________________ ______________
Vehicle Make/Model: 2007 Audi RS4
Location: Delaware, USA
Mileage: 54k on 8/7/09
Oil used: Castrol provided by dealer
OCI: 5k
Fuel: 95%-Shell V-Power 93, 5%-Sunoco/Mobil
Avg trip weekday: 15miles. Weekend: 200 miles.

Notes:
Car started feeling sluggish at 25k miles.
Oil had to be topped off about twice per interval.
BG treatment applied at ~32k. No improvement in performance.
3 CEL's for misfires up to 54k.
CEL + EPC at 54k which prompted IM removal and CB discovery.

If anyone has any ideas on how to improve this database let me know and I will update the original post.

Photos:
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2375/img0682e.jpg (http://img193.imageshack.us/i/img0682e.jpg/) http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/img0682e.jpg/1/w3648.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img193/img0682e.jpg/1/)
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5461/img0681v.jpg (http://img233.imageshack.us/i/img0681v.jpg/) http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/img0681v.jpg/1/w3648.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img233/img0681v.jpg/1/)
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/5906/img0683r.jpg (http://img188.imageshack.us/i/img0683r.jpg/) http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/img0683r.jpg/1/w3648.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img188/img0683r.jpg/1/)
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8169/img0690.jpg (http://img338.imageshack.us/i/img0690.jpg/) http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/img0690.jpg/1/w3648.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img338/img0690.jpg/1/)http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8169/img0690.jpg (http://img338.imageshack.us/i/img0690.jpg/) http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/img0690.jpg/1/w3648.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img338/img0690.jpg/1/)

And here is the link to my thread for more about my experience:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3967865#post3967865

I hope everyone find this helpful. Post up!

Akatsuki...

01-07-2010, 12:24 AM

VTA catch can eliminates the problem 100%, but it smells and is illegal.

Recirc catch can u'll still have build up, but wont be as bad.

There was a VW patent out a while back saying 20 mins of driving at 3k rpm burns it off.. i doubt it though, it will burn some off but not all.

frrg

01-07-2010, 12:30 AM

Vehicle Make/Model. 2008 RS4
Location: California
Mileage in which CB was discovered. 67k
Oil used. Redline Oil/Castrol provided by dealer
Oil Change Interval. 3500-5000K
Fuel Used. 80% Shell 91-20%Sunoco/Mobil
Average Trip daily 120miles (90% freeway/10%city-Est. 35-40k annual)

Notes:
Car started to feel a bit sluggish at times after September (summer). Random EPC lights, but would dissapear after restarting. Misfires on cylinder 1-3-8 started early December '09. Cold starts got very bad/rough idle. Multiple CEL's with DBW & misfires faults.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0df24b3127ccef95f4a1b496c00000030O00AcuGLds4ct2 QPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0df24b3127ccef95e32db69dc00000030O00AcuGLds4ct2 QPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0df24b3127ccef95e7f74a8fd00000030O00AcuGLds4ct2 QPbz4K/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

mickf29

01-07-2010, 09:01 AM

Vehicle Make/Model. Audi RS4
Location: Pacific Northwest (Oregon, Washington primarily)
Mileage/Date in which CB was discovered. 18k miles, fixed at 24k at my expense, intermittent CEL's would not get them to fix. Down 30+hp on dyno, loss of top end.
Oil used. Castrol primarily, tried Royal Purple, tried Mobil 1
Oil Change Interval. every 3-4k miles
Fuel Used. Shell V-Power 92 octane
How short/long are your trips on average. Work week: 30 miles each way, loads of trip to Seattle and Portland on average 250 miles a shot.

I am somewhat understanding of Audi on this issue, if it wasn't for the strict emissions controls this may be easily solved. However what really irks me is that they know this is an issue, they still make us all suffer through their process to get it fixed. Make us run fuel injector cleaners, make us have constant CEL's. I had CEL's and very rough starts when it got cold for a few months, tried to get the dealers to take a look at it, but they would just say they can't fix unless I have a long term CEL. I finally got tired of the rough starts, took it to an external shop to pull the intake manifold off and get pictures. Paid them for the service, took pictures of all the muck in there, and took it to Audi. The dealer response was "sorry, even though we see it there, its not the worst we have seen, and because your CEL's are intermittent, we won't do anything for you. I couldn't believe this after having owned 3 Audi's from this dealer, and taking my mom in to get an Audi, and steering a good friend to a new TT over a Solstice. They couldn't see fit to save me $700 and do the job for me under warranty? Total bull. After that, I am ready and willing to lend my experience to any lawsuit.

Pics of mine:
http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww269/MickFlanigan/PB050026.jpg

http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww269/MickFlanigan/PB050027.jpg

SoCalS4Avant

01-07-2010, 10:37 AM

Hey guys, I'm going to merge this thread with the thread (Carbon Build-up Megathread (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=336352))that has been stickied on the FSI Carbon Build-up in the Drivetrain Forum.

sakimano

01-07-2010, 01:37 PM

sadly, it'll die a slow death there (here I guess...it's already here).

It would be nice if it could be sticked in each of the forums where it's relevant.

Is there a way to have the thread show up at the top of all the pages with the other stickies, but when someone posts to it, have it update across the board, no matter what forum they were originally in?

That'd be ideal because these subforums frankly don't see the traffic.

iconoclast

01-07-2010, 04:06 PM

merge?
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=336570

RS Maniac

01-07-2010, 04:11 PM

I vote for this to be a sticky too, clearly an important issue plaguing the FSI platform!

frrg

01-08-2010, 12:07 AM

This thread needs to become very sticky, kind of like the CB these owners are having. I know it sounds cheesy[:)] Otherwise this thread will get lost

MrPerfect

01-08-2010, 08:22 AM

Guys, this thread IS sticky. Now I just wish it were possible to get it in every FSI model forum. But I'll settle with this.

Edit: Anthony agreed! There is a locked sticky post in each subforum with FSI engine that I'll try to keep synced with this main thread.

sakimano

01-08-2010, 08:54 AM

Guys, this thread IS sticky. Now I just wish it were possible to get it in every FSI model forum. But I'll settle with this.

yeah...but a sticky in the drivetrain forum is like being a sticky in Siberia..nobody comes through here (relatively speaking)

i.e today is Jan 8th...the thread has 16 posts and 880 views (entirely from it's time in the B6/7 S4/RS4 forum). Now that it has been moved here, and won't show up at all in S4/RS4 (the moved thing vanishes after a day I believe), you'll see what I mean. I'll check in 2 days later for fun.

what it needs to be is stickied in each forum, all linking back to one location so that all posts automatically go to the one main thread.

cory_can

01-11-2010, 05:35 PM

is there any consensus on what type of driving is more likely to cause (or delay) this build-up?

Start/Stop city driving, constant RPM highway driving, being a pussy with the "Go" pedal ....etc. etc.

Or does the type of driving have no impact whatsoever?

Coker Rat

01-11-2010, 06:03 PM

It might be possible for a lab to do chemical analysis testing on the residue. That might be the most direct way to the answer. I work for a large petroleum company that, if they ever had an issue like this in process piping, would not hesitate to find the chemical makeup of the residue in question before even considering a solution.

I don't know who would do it or how much it might cost though...

edit: maybe these guys http://www.semlab.com/

Edit2: never mind i guess i should read the thread...

A more exact analysis of how these carbon deposits form leads to the following result: Oil and fuel constituents first form a sticky coating on the components. These constituents are chiefly long-chain and branched-chain hydrocarbons, i.e., the low-volatility components of oil and fuel. Aromatic compounds adhere especially well. This sticky base coating serves as a base for the deposition of soot particles. This results in a porous surface, in which oil and fuel particles in turn become embedded. This process is a circular process, by which the coating thickness of the carbon deposits continuously increases. Especially in the area of the intake valves, the deposits originate from blowby gases and from internal and external exhaust gas recirculation, and in this process, the blowby gasses and the recirculated exhaust gas come into direct contact with the intake valve.

Coker Rat

01-11-2010, 06:10 PM

Or does the type of driving have no impact whatsoever?

I would estimate that the only correlation between driving style and the buildup is that it is clearly caused by the combustion process in these motors. Therefore it could be said that the more you 'combust', the more you will have built up. As gas consumption (combustion) is not directly connected with mileage, you may not find a direct correlation between amount of buildup and mileage.

doctorheine

01-11-2010, 10:01 PM

I would imagine the harder you drive the more likely hydrocarbons and aromatic particles will adhere to the neck of the intake valves.
SO IN THEORY...
Maybe the porous metal on the stock internals is a more suitable environment for hydrocarbons to acumulate.... does anybody have polished internals?? Is there still CB happening then?

What about a non stick solution like tfal or oil resistant coating work on the areas affected >?

Im pretty sure there are alot of theory's but what is most important is we get the attention needed on this topic. At the end audi is going to end up hurting themselves when they steal horsepower from consumers... nobody likes to lose horses from the stables.

notjoefromnh

01-12-2010, 07:05 AM

I smell class action lawsuit

iconoclast

01-12-2010, 11:09 AM

in that case i smell lawyers gettin' rich and aoa and the end user both getting screwed... a recall or 'extended warranty' would be better than class action.

BEM3

01-12-2010, 10:40 PM

MrPerfect

01-15-2010, 09:57 AM

Thanks for your post BEM3, I added your separate thread to the index as well in case there is some good conversation striked up there.

TehDolphin3.2

01-23-2010, 06:40 PM

Another one to report.

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 A4 3.2 Quattro
Location: NY
Mileage: 21,000 mikes
Oil used: Castrol Syntec: 5w-40
Oil Change Interval: 5000
Fuel Used: Mobil or Citgo 93 octane
How short/long are your trips on average: 72 mile commute to work each way, 10k miles on car in about 4 months.

Brought the car into the dealer on Friday for a CEL. CEL had been coming on and off for a few weeks, it would stay on a day or two then go away...then back on a few days later. Every time I made an appointment for service, the light would go off and Audi told me the code was cleared if there was no active CEL.
This time the CEL stayed on about a week and a half. My invoice stated I had a cylinder 1 misfire which happened on 1 occasion. Dealer stated they could do a BG cleaning service for $170 which wasn't covered under warranty. I told him about the CEL's coming on and off, dealer told me it was common and most likely cause was the carbon build up on the valves. Dealer reset the computer this time around, I'll report back if I get another CEL.

iconoclast

01-24-2010, 05:04 AM

http://forums.quattroworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/22956.phtml

DavidB8

02-02-2010, 10:23 PM

Sorry if this is already posted. Looks like Audi has a specific tool to adress carbon on the intake. just a sand blaster type tool but they list it for carbon

http://buy.equipmentsolutions.com/eqs_va/Net/ItemDetail.aspx?Type=

iconoclast

02-03-2010, 09:22 AM

you need a user id and pw... so what will stop it from re-occuring? cleaning it out is one thing, preventing it is another.

MrPerfect

02-08-2010, 03:45 PM

I had seen in a post that Audi doesn't even use this any more to clean carbon. Though I have no idea what they're using instead if they have stopped using walnut shell blasting.

NoTec

02-10-2010, 11:24 AM

Reported by EVOMS over on 6speed
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/audi/201305-evoms-project-r8-twin-turbo-has-begun-complete-engine-build.html

flyfishing

02-28-2010, 06:45 PM

edmunds long term car is the s5. someone (maybe a bunch of forum members) should email them and maybe they would look into this and make the concern more publicly known.

iconoclast

03-12-2010, 09:04 AM

Letter directly from AOA regarding the issue, basically saying it is user error and not their problem... i asked in a follow up email if this would be covered under warranty or cpo and they never responded...

Thank you for contacting Audi of America regarding your questions about carbon build-up. I was delighted to read that you are a long-time Audi owner and enthusiast. Your loyalty to the brand is certainly appreciated. Please accept this written response.

You did not mention, in your e-mail, the nature of the concerns you have been experiencing with the Fuel Straight Injection (FSI) system of your Audi. I am uncertain if these concerns are related to carbon build up and will therefore restrict my answers to the results of my research in regard to your inquiry. I can tell you that carbon is a naturally occurring byproduct in all combustion engines. It looks like a thin coat of black soot similar to what you might find in the flue of a chimney. There are many things, such as contaminants found in lower grade gasoline, floating rust or debris from fuel distributors or retailers’ storage tanks, oil leaks, and short trip driving that can lead to carbon build-up in your engine. The excessive build-up can lead to decreased fuel mileage, excessive emissions, hesitation, lack of power, stalling and poor acceleration because the carbon build-up on the vehicle’s sensors does not allow the computer to properly control the air/fuel mixture and can lead to even further carbon build-up.

All gasoline grades contain substances that can cause deposits to collect on vital engine parts, such as fuel injectors and intake valves. Most gasoline brands include additives to keep engine and fuel systems clean, but they are not all equally effective. As a result, accumulated carbon deposits may adversely affect an engine and prevent peak performance from being achieved. Fuel supplies vary from region to region and therefore the majority of people might never be faced with the same concern since their fuel supplies are different.

With that understanding, it is not unheard of for dealerships in particular regions to identify specific concerns that might require supplemental maintenance services within their area of the country. An example of this would be cleaning fuel injectors due to carbon build-up caused by additives found in gasoline on either a regional or seasonal basis as you indicated was recently done by your authorized Audi dealer. The cleaning is a relatively simple process. Chemicals can be flushed through the fuel system that dislodge and clean out the carbon. Some parts may have to be removed and cleaned manually, or in extreme cases, replaced entirely. Additionally, proper vehicle maintenance throughout a vehicle's service life is also a key ingredient to overall performance of your Audi. The Audi service schedule does not include yearly fuel system cleanings. This type of service would be considered maintenance related since there was not a part replacement necessary due to a manufacturer shortcoming limiting or reducing functionality and therefore is the responsibility of the owner of the vehicle.

In regard to Top Tier Gasoline, I would encourage you to review http://www.toptiergas.com/ for additional information related to the issues that we discussed, what Top Tier Gasoline will do to help those concerns, and retailers where you can obtain these Audi endorsed fuels.

spa

03-12-2010, 11:16 AM

adding this to my watched thread list.. great thread, it is time Audi takes notice.

iconoclast

03-12-2010, 12:12 PM

i sent to them this thread and threads from other boards... pointed out that it was not model/engine specific nor user error... the underlything theme or the only common thing across the board is that each engine is an FSI engine... they feel its user error and nothing on their end. unfortunately at this time it seems like they will only step up to the plate on a case by case basis...

Adamzs

03-13-2010, 09:32 AM

Re: *OFFICIAL FSI Carbon Build-Up Database*

Vehicle Make/Model. 2009 A4 2.0T
Location: Washington, DC
Mileage in which CB was discovered. 15,450
Oil used. oil provided by dealer
Oil Change Interval. at regular service intervals
Fuel Used. 100% Shell V-Power
Average Trip daily 30miles

Notes:
Car started feeling sluggish. Engine would stutter while idling at stoplights and after starting. Engine would have a put put put put put sound occasionally after starting. Took it to the dealer 3 times, first time they said a software update would fix it, second time they added a fuel injection cleaner to the gas, third time they actually found all the carbon buildup. Here are the dealer notes on the last service:

C/S CHECK ENGINE LIGHT CAME ON WITH NOTICEABLE DETERIORATION IN PERFORMANCE. PERFORMED GFF. FOUND SPORADIC MISFIRE ON ALL CYLINDERS. REMOVED INTAKE MANIFOLD TO INSPECT INTAKE VALVES. FOUND INTAKE VALVES CARBONED UP. CLEANED INTAKE VALVES AND REPLACED NUMBER 3 AND 4 FUEL INJECTOR. FUEL INJECTOR PARTIALLY CLOGGED. INSTALLED INTAKE MANIFOLD AND PERFORMED BASIC SETTING FOR INTAKE RUNNER FLAP AND THROTTLE BODY. ROAD TESTED VEHICLE FOR SIX MILES.

Apparently the dealer had an argument with Audi HQ about a '09 with this low mileage having the carbon buildup problem. Audi HQ refused to believe it could be the problem but the dealer went on their own to check the carbon buildup. The dealer took pictures and sent back to Audi HQ as proof.

iconoclast

03-14-2010, 04:46 PM

what was the end result?

Adamzs

03-14-2010, 08:28 PM

what was the end result?

Sorry, should have included that the car is running great now, but I am fairly certian that I will be back in another 15,000 miles to have the carbon cleaned out again. The dealer didn't say what, if anything, Audi HQ plans to do about the issue. But I am keeping every single gas receipt and marking milage at each fillup for next time.

iconoclast

03-15-2010, 06:02 AM

painful way to go through life.

rowdy7

04-02-2010, 08:17 AM

Ryan_Siefring23

04-02-2010, 01:57 PM

I am in market for 2010 A4. All of this talk about the excessive carbon buildup and resulting performance loss has spooked me a bit. I heard the PCV on 2010 A4 2.0T was redesigned to prevent the issues with carbon buildup on valve intakes and that it is indeed different than 2009 setup. Is it BS or have any of you heard the same thing? You can really find the REAL story in these forums sometimes. I appreciate your help.

I too am now wearry of purchasing a 2010 A4 or S4. I wonder if other DI engines suffer this same problem, like the BMW 335i or the 2009 WRX.

It sounds like you would need to completely remove both the CCV (Close Crankcase Ventelation) system and the EGR system to make any significant improvments. Going OCV, with a catch can would be easier than removing the EGR system.

Akatsuki...

04-02-2010, 07:17 PM

^335 has the same issue. BSH just released the catch can for 335 I think.
The only one i am aware of that has no issues is Lexus, as they have an extra port on their DI engines to prevent build up.

iconoclast

04-03-2010, 05:50 AM

bryzf1

04-05-2010, 09:31 PM

after speaking with aoa countless times via email and phone. going back and forth with out a direct answer to any of my questions idecided to pass on an fsi engine car even though three out of my five choices of cars were fsi. it seems now audi's only solution is to blame the end-user.

What are your other 2 choices? And it is quite sad that they do blame the user for the buildup issue.... sure makes it hard to stay brand loyal.

iconoclast

04-06-2010, 05:05 AM

Audi A3 3.2Q, B7 S4 Avant. these were the only two non-fsi cars i looked into which were made by audi.

wongster

04-07-2010, 07:02 AM

Does the B7 S4have an FSI engin?

iconoclast

04-07-2010, 07:11 AM

no. b6/b7 s4 have BHF engine which is NON-FSI.

Auto Reign

04-11-2010, 10:30 AM

Great thread, great compilation.

Could not go through all the links but here is another great one.

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?p=23943182

After having read some of the links, I would summarize the possible causes as follows:

1) EGR
2) PCV
3) oil quality
4) fuel quality

As a prevention solution, I would suggest (just an attempt, feel free to comment) as follows:

1) Reduce exhaust back pressure, update ECU software. (Note: EGR for some FSI engine [if not all] is controlled by camshaft profile and software via cam timing adjustment)
2) use after-market catch can such as Mann's Provent 200
3) use low SAPS (low ash) engine oil (manufacturer specs: VW504 00/VW507 00 not VW502 xx/VW505 xx)
4) use Audi/VW fuel additive (P/N: G 001 700 03)

Hope the above info is useful.

cheers,
Clement

MrPerfect

04-11-2010, 04:22 PM

Thanks for that. Added link to the main post.

Auto Reign

04-11-2010, 06:30 PM

Thanks for that. Added link to the main post.

Thank you MrPerfect.

Could the Preventive Solution be added to the mail thread as well? I believe there are a good number of user rather have a preventive measure as oppose to Rectification measure.

Thank you once again.

Cheers,
Clement

BEM3

04-12-2010, 11:04 PM

Here’s another data point. This is my first post and unfortunately it doesn’t have anything good to report…

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 11,990 miles / 30 November 2009
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 2850 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

Reported rough idle when cold to the dealer. CEL was on. Did not notice any loss of power.

Dealer invoice states:

“Verified Customer Concern. Hooked up scan tool, found five random engine faults. P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, and P0304 (random cylinder misfire, cylinder misfire 1-4). Followed TSB 2019948/3, added fuel additive and road tested vehicle for 60 miles sustaining high engine RPM. Allowed vehicle to sit for several hours to repeat cold start up. Hooked up scan tool and cold started vehicle, MVB 14 registered 8 faults (4 in cylinder 1, 2 in cylinder 2, and 2 in cylinder 3). Will open TAC ticket. **- (Tech 2751) opened TAC ticket. They said to check camshaft adjustment. Performed check through MVBS 90-96 and they are fine, there are no sticking adjusters. Removed intake manifold and found carbon build up on back of valves. TAC said to perform cleaning as stated in the TSB. Cleaned valves, removed spark plugs, blew out carbon chunks. Reassembled and test drove. Let sit outside overnight and started cold. There was no misfire on any cylinder. Performed oil service per TSB. Closed TAC ticket. Done.”

Note:
Vehicle purchased new with 49 miles / 27 September 2008
Engine (short block) replaced for cylinder wall scoring 6521 miles / 14 April 2009
*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement
Drove the car from Seattle to San Francisco and back. It currently has over 15,000 miles on it and its starting to run rough when cold again. Thank goodness for warranty!

UPDATE:

Carbon build up again despite driving the car longer and harder…

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 18,082 miles / 01 April 2010
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 4520 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement and valve cleaning

Issue: “Client states CEL is on and vehicle has a rough idle when started cold”

Dealer invoice states: “Verified Check Engine Light was on, performed guided fault finding, found fault P0301 Cylinder 1 misfire detected, P0303 Cylinder 3 misfire detected, both were at cold start, checked for TSB’s, found TSB2020645/4 for ECM update, updated software, suggest leaving car overnight to cold start and verify repair retested AM ok.

Less than a week later…

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 18,255 miles / 09 April 2010
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 4520 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement and valve cleaning

Issue: “Client states the Check Engine Light is on. Please verify and advise (rough when cold)

Dealer invoice states: “XXXXX Could not verify concern.. No Check Engine Light on. Ran GFF and found faults P0301 and P0303. Same faults as before engine replacement. Removed all six coils and spark plugs. Checked cylinder walls for wear. Cylinder 3 shows reseding cross hatch. Checked history and found short block has been replaced, valve cleaning has been performed 6000 miles ago. ECM update has been performed. Camshaft Tensioner has been replaced for misfires on one bank. After gathering all information on this vehicle made a TACS Ticket. Access code XXXXXX. Case number XX-XXXXXX. Instructed to perform another valve cleaning and application of G17 fuel additive to fuel system following TSB number 2019948/3. Had 2 hrs of diag and preperation prior to repair. Added fuel additive to fuel tank, also filled gas tank with 10 gallons of fuel and drove vehicle for 60 miles. Slight misfires still felt. Removed intake manifold and air distribution housing. Cleaned off valves and swapped Injectors 1 with 4 and 3 with 6 for further diag in future if needed. Replaced all seals on swapped injectors. Removed all spark plugs and blew out any debris. Reinstalled all removed components. Performed an oil change under warranty as per TSB. Cold started vehicle and verified no cold start misfires. Every once and a while the vehicle needs to be driven harder than normal to clean off any carbon buildup on back of valves. Placing fuel additive in truck of vehicle and recommend adding in 3000 miles. G17 additive should be added on full tank.”

I am not confident that this is a permanent fix, but at least the dealer is doing what they can.

MrPerfect

04-12-2010, 11:30 PM

Akatsuki...

04-15-2010, 02:40 PM

Jeeze, sorry to hear fo your continued issues. Amazing that you're having that at such low milage. The 3.2s definitely seem to have it the worst of all FSI engines.Tha ks for the update and keeping us informed. Superb documentation also!

+1.. could it be that the lack of forced induction causes build up faster? My 2.0T is at 37000K Km.. less than 30k miles, and i have no issues.

Auto Reign

04-16-2010, 07:28 AM

Read the attached PDF file.

There is a good reason why low SAPS engine oil is required for EURO 4 engine.

Cheers,
Clement

Link for download: http://www.clubaudimalaysia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7375&p=49549&sid=fb3e257f385c4d7956c25215321f1315#p49549

Faelcrom

04-21-2010, 07:27 PM

The A6 is primarily my wife's car. And she has a long commute. Just got it back from getting TSB 2019948/3 done. Here's my info:
**

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A6 3.2L
Location: San Pedro, CA
Mileage/Date: 29952 miles / 21 April 2010
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: 5000 per service advise. All by dealer.
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: Up until Nov. commute on the car is a little over 100 miles a day. Since then it has been short 6-10 mile trips.

Notes: ECM was done previously at 25K service. Started noticing the cold start mis-fire on and off shortly before the 25K service. CEL came on just before the weekend, took the car to the dealership on 4/19. Here's what the notes from the service tickets said:
**
VERIFIED CUSTOMERS CONCERN PERFORMED GFF FOUND FAULTS P0300 P0301 P0304 P0305 P0306 AS PER TSB 2020645/5 PERFORMED INSPECTION OF ECM SOFTWARE LEVEL FOUND ECM TO HAVE ALREADY BEEN UPDATED AS PER TSB 2019948/3 ADDED FUEL ADITIVE G17 TO FUEL TANK TEST DROVE VEHICLE 60 MILES LET VEHICLE SIT OVER NIGHT RECHECKED VEHICLE COLD START UP FOUND VEHICLE TO STILL BE MISSFIRING AS PER TSB REMOVED INTAKE AND PERFORMED CARBON CLEANING ON VALVES TEST DROVE VEHICLE LET VEHICLE SIT RECHECKED VEHICLE VEHICLE NOW OPERATING PROPERLY ADVISED CUSTOMER AS PER SERVICE MANAGER VEHICLE SHOULD BE DRIVING A ADDITIONAL 50 MILES CUSTOMER DECLIENED TES DRIVE AT THIS TIME ADVISE CUSTOMER TO ADD FUEL ADDITIVE G17 TO FUEL TANK IN 3000 MILES G17 BOTTLE IS IN GLOVE BOX
**
I have driven the car all day with 2 cold start, while the miss fire during start up has gone away. There is still seems to be a lag from teh engine when I step on the gas from a stand still. Can I expect to have to clean out the carbon build up every 20-30K miles? Seems like the problem only started after she stopped driving her long commutes. Might the carbon built up accelerated with the frequent short trips vs her previous long freeway commutes?

BEM3

04-22-2010, 11:10 PM

MrPerfect and Akatsuki - Thanks and you’re welcome! I wish I knew precisely what is causing this problem.
Auto Reign – Good information. Thanks! It’s unfortunate that the same problems are occurring in Malaysia.
Faelcrom – Sorry to hear you’re having the same experience. Looks like your dealer is following similar troubleshooting procedures as my dealer.
It’s good to keep documenting everyone’s experiences in an effort capture as much data as possible and bring awareness to the situation.

dbc112

04-26-2010, 09:05 AM

+1.. could it be that the lack of forced induction causes build up faster? My 2.0T is at 37000K Km.. less than 30k miles, and i have no issues.

Just a great reason to supercharge!

frankyd021

05-21-2010, 07:12 AM

2007 A4 3.2 Quattro: Been in the shop for 3 weeks now... just got the call.. carbon build up is SOOOOO bad that i am getting a new motor... good thing im still under warranty.

cleaver

05-22-2010, 01:06 PM

OK, here's my saga:
2007 A4 Avant 3.2 Tiptronic, purchased used in July 2008 with 21885 miles.

26,599 - check engine light on; misfire faults found and swapped ignition coils.
27,688 - check engine light on; misfire faults found and fuel additive added to tank.
28,150 - check engine light on; misfire faults found and injectors swapped. Misfires still present so removed intake manifold and cleaned intake valves for cylinders 1 and 2.
35,365 - check engine light on; misfire faults found and ECM software update performed
35,832 - check engine light on; misfire faults found and fuel additive added to tank. Misfires still present so removed intake manifold to check for carbon buildup - none found. Misfires still present and case escalated to TFM. All valve lifters replaced and misfires still present. Removed ignition coils and plugs and used boroscope to inspect cylinder wall. Scoring found at bottom of cylinder 2. New short block ordered. Transferred all necessary equipment to new short block but unable to fully install in vehicle due to engine mounting boss cracked in shipping. Second short block ordered. Transferred all necessary equipment to new short block and installed in vehicle. Misfires still present so replaced all injectors. No misfires found.
36,244 - customer returned with squeaks coming from front end. Loosened subframe bolts and allowed assembly to settle then retightened bolts and checked alignment.

What is it with these direct-injected V-6's??? My car had me very worried and I actually started shopping for another car, but I think I'm better off keeping it at this point. No, this shouldn't have happened, but at least Audi stepped up to the plate and made good, so I commend them for standing behind their product.

wootwoot

05-26-2010, 11:24 AM

Would gasoline with alcohol in it help with this buildup issue? In my state we have 10% ethanol in all fuel.

MrPerfect

05-26-2010, 12:16 PM

In the US, the use of ethanol is mandatory and fuel in all states have some amount of ethanol in it. But no, since the fuel doesn't wash the valves ever, fuel additives and detergents don't matter.

bloodstar57

05-26-2010, 04:12 PM

I going to be doing the BG ISC(buying the equipment) cleaning that injects into the manifold will keep post of results.

atothek302

06-04-2010, 12:10 AM

I've been thinking about getting a S5 but hearing all this makes me hesitatnt to pull the trigger. Will Audi repai/clean the carbon buildup under warranty?

MrPerfect

06-04-2010, 08:56 PM

Seems to be a case-by-case basis. I'm not sure I've heard of any reports of S5's having valve cleanings to even judge how much power loss it really has.

brando124

07-12-2010, 07:04 PM

I need help - i have a 2003 a6 3.0 liter. i was told that i need a new transmission today. i am not a car expert, but this seems odd to me. my car has only 80k miles. is this a common issue w/ audi? can someone please give me some advice - some questions to ask? what do i need to know?

rmh

07-20-2010, 08:14 AM

I have a Ross-Tech VAG-COM scan tool and I regularly scan my Audis for faults and when I do get a CEL, I make a scan to keep the warranty service techs honest.

Below is the CSV file of my maintenance history for the 2008 A4 B7 3.2 6MT. When I purchased the car, they gave me AudiCare (free scheduled maintenance through 50,000 miles), so the vehicle has always gone back to the dealer for maintenance and oil changes. I pay for the 5000 mile change between the scheduled 10,000 mile interval, again, service done at the dealer.

Between the 25,000 mile service (24,196 miles) in Feb and the latest CEL in July (27,426 miles), the car has been to the track twice (hundreds of miles of 4000RPM-redline runs, 20-40 minutes at a time), has had 3 bottles of Audi G-001-700-03 HD6-C additive through it and only the highest octane fuel I can find (91-93).

There are 23 TopTier gas stations within a 50 mile radius of me and the only convenient ones I've been to have not had any fuel over 89 octane, so I end up using BP 93 octane fuel.

"Date","Mileage","Subsystem","Audi Code","Text","SAE Code","Text"
31-Jan-2008,14,,,"Took Delivery (<dealer> Audi)",,
19-Feb-2008,528,"Address 01: Engine","001796","Clutch Switch (F36): Implausible Signal","P0704 - 008","Implausible Signal - Intermittent"
19-Feb-2008,528,"Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr","00668","Supply Voltage Terminal 30","06-10","Signal too High - Intermittent"
19-Feb-2008,528,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
11-Mar-2008,1012,"Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr","00668","Supply Voltage Terminal 30","06-10","Signal too High - Intermittent"
11-Mar-2008,1012,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
10-Apr-2008,1615,"Address 01: Engine","000278","Engine Coolant Temp. Sensor (G62): Implausible Signal","P0116 - 008","Implausible Signal - Intermittent"
10-Apr-2008,1615,"Address 01: Engine","001796","Clutch Switch (F36): Implausible Signal","P0704 - 008","Implausible Signal - Intermittent"
10-Apr-2008,1615,"Address 01: Engine","001089","EVAP Emission Control Sys: Incorrect Flow","P0441 - 008","Implausible Signal - Intermittent"
10-Apr-2008,1615,"Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr","00668","Supply Voltage Terminal 30","06-10","Signal too High - Intermittent"
10-Apr-2008,1615,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
9-Jun-2008,5654,"Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr","00668","Supply Voltage Terminal 30","06-10","Signal too High - Intermittent"
9-Jun-2008,5654,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
11-Jun-2008,5716,,,"5000 mile service (<dealer> Audi)",,
28-Jun-2008,6182,,,"no faults found in this scan",,
17-Jan-2009,11588,"Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr","00668","Supply Voltage Terminal 30","06-10","Signal too High - Intermittent"
15-Mar-2009,12744,"Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr","00668","Supply Voltage Terminal 30","06-10","Signal too High - Intermittent"
15-Mar-2009,12744,"Address 56: Radio","00532","Supply Voltage B+","001","Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent"
15-Mar-2009,12744,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
8-Apr-2009,14650,,,"15,000 mile service (<dealer> Audi)",,
17-Apr-2009,,,,"New OEM 22mm Rear Sway Bar Installed",,
17-May-2009,15627,"Address 08: Auto HVAC","01272","Positioning Motor for Central Flap (V70)","41-10","Blocked or No Voltage - Intermittent"
17-May-2009,15627,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
20-May-2009,15717,,,"New Summer Tires/Wheels/Tire Pressure Sensors installed (<dealer> Audi)",,
21-May-2009,15751,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
21-May-2009,15751,"Address 65: Tire Pressure","01521","Sensor for Tire Pressure","004","No Signal/Communication - MIL ON"
26-May-2009,15966,,,"Correct Tire Pressure Sensors Installed (<dealer> Audi)",,
29-Jul-2009,,,,"Balance & Rotate Tires/Wheels",,
30-Sep-2009,19653,"Address 01: Engine","000772","Cylinder 4: Misfire Detected","P0304 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
30-Sep-2009,19653,"Address 01: Engine","000774","Cylinder 6: Misfire Detected","P0306 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
30-Sep-2009,19653,"Address 01: Engine","000768","Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected","P0300 - 006","Short to Plus - Intermittent"
30-Sep-2009,19653,"Address 01: Engine","001110","EVAP System: Very Small Leak Detected","P0456 - 006","Short to Plus - Intermittent"
30-Sep-2009,19653,"Address 01: Engine","001796","Clutch Switch (F36): Implausible Signal","P0704 - 008","Implausible Signal"
30-Sep-2009,19653,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
30-Sep-2009,19653,"Address 65: Tire Pressure","02214","Tire Pressure Warning","000",
3-Oct-2009,20138,,,"CEL illuminates",,
3-Oct-2009,20138,"Address 01: Engine","000772","Cylinder 4: Misfire Detected","P0304 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
3-Oct-2009,20138,"Address 01: Engine","000774","Cylinder 6: Misfire Detected","P0306 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
3-Oct-2009,20138,"Address 01: Engine","000768","Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected","P0300 - 006","Short to Plus - Intermittent"
3-Oct-2009,20138,"Address 01: Engine","001110","EVAP System: Very Small Leak Detected","P0456 - 006","Short to Plus - Intermittent"
3-Oct-2009,20138,"Address 01: Engine","001796","Clutch Switch (F36): Implausible Signal","P0704 - 008","Implausible Signal"
3-Oct-2009,20138,"Address 65: Tire Pressure","02214","Tire Pressure Warning","000",
8-Oct-2009,20200,,,"20,000 oil change, Evap valve changed, TB 2019948/2 performed for carbon buildup/misfires",,
16-Feb-2010,24124,"Address 01: Engine","000772","Cylinder 4: Misfire Detected","P0304 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
16-Feb-2010,24124,"Address 01: Engine","000774","Cylinder 6: Misfire Detected","P0306 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
16-Feb-2010,24124,"Address 01: Engine","000773","Cylinder 5: Misfire Detected","P0305 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
16-Feb-2010,24124,"Address 01: Engine","000768","Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected","P0300 - 006","Short to Plus - Intermittent"
16-Feb-2010,24124,"Address 01: Engine","000771","Cylinder 3: Misfire Detected","P0303 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
16-Feb-2010,24124,"Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr","00668","Supply Voltage Terminal 30","06-10","Signal too High - Intermittent"
16-Feb-2010,24124,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
22-Feb-2010,24124,,,"CEL illuminates",,
23-Feb-2010,24196,"Address 01: Engine","000772","Cylinder 4: Misfire Detected","P0304 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
23-Feb-2010,24196,"Address 01: Engine","000774","Cylinder 6: Misfire Detected","P0306 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
23-Feb-2010,24196,"Address 01: Engine","000773","Cylinder 5: Misfire Detected","P0305 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
23-Feb-2010,24196,"Address 01: Engine","000768","Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected","P0300 - 006","Short to Plus - Intermittent"
23-Feb-2010,24196,"Address 01: Engine","000771","Cylinder 3: Misfire Detected","P0303 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
23-Feb-2010,24196,"Address 01: Engine","001796","Clutch Switch (F36): Implausible Signal","P0704 - 008","Implausible Signal"
23-Feb-2010,24196,"Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr",,"No Faults Found or DTCs not supported by controller or a communication error occurred",,
23-Feb-2010,24196,"Address 56: Radio","00857","CD Changer Unit (R41)","004","No Signal/Communication - Intermittent"
24-Feb-2010,,,,"25,000 service, TSB 2019948/3 performed for carbon buildup/misfires",,
11-Jun-2010,26725,,,"Balance and Rotate Tires",,
15-Jul-2010,27426,,,"CEL illuminates",,
15-Jul-2010,27426,"Address 01: Engine","000772","Cylinder 4: Misfire Detected","P0304 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
15-Jul-2010,27426,"Address 01: Engine","000774","Cylinder 6: Misfire Detected","P0306 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"
15-Jul-2010,27426,"Address 01: Engine","000768","Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected","P0300 - 006","Short to Plus - Intermittent"
15-Jul-2010,27426,"Address 01: Engine","000773","Cylinder 5: Misfire Detected","P0305 - 007","Short to Ground - Intermittent"

Car is at the dealer today, again - 3rd time in ~8000 miles.

rmh

07-20-2010, 02:36 PM

Got the vehicle back from the dealer this afternoon - 6 hours from drop off to pickup.
I wonder if the techs are getting experienced at this? Six hours to get the car checked in, serviced and test driven, plus my 45 minutes to pick up the vehicle seems pretty quick.

Driveability is back to where it was when new. For some time now, I noted a pregnant pause hesitation when starting out in first gear when cold, but didn't think anything of it, after this service it appears to be gone. Car feels like its got its spunk back too.

TSBs 2019948/3 (case 2 - case 1 previously performed) and 2020645/5 (ECU update) performed - this included new software for the ECM, removing the intake manifold, swapping injectors, manual cleaning of intake valves and both lower intake manifolds/banks (tech noted "heavy amount of carbon buildup"), an oil service (change) and a test drive per the TSBs.

All service today performed under warranty.

Data Point information: My normal commute since owning this car has been 20-25+ miles each way (when I do not telecommute from home) with road trips every 3 months (600-1200 straight through miles each way, stopping only for gas/restroom breaks), and a number of High Speed Driver Education/track events. I live in the upper midwest where we have cold snowy winters and hot humid summers, but my commutes are purposefully outside of the rush hour so as to avoid stop and go traffic. I consider my normal driving style spirited.

MrPerfect

07-21-2010, 02:01 PM

I'm not sure how much easier/more accessible the V6 intake manifold is to remove and replace but the V8 FSI is a significant hassle. 6 hours does seem like an extremely short amount of time but given the widespread problem with the V6s, I wouldn't be surprised if they do in fact have a fairly smooth procedure for it. You could ask how were the valves cleaned (with what method)? If in doubt, you could've also asked for before/after pictures, but if it's pretty routine now, they probably wouldn't take them.

In the end, if she runs, great! The bummer is when this happens out of warranty and you have to pay out of pocket. That will kill the out-of-warranty market for the V6 FSI cars pretty hard.

dbc112

07-21-2010, 04:54 PM

Keaton@JHM

08-24-2010, 11:01 AM

i think i might have another issue to report about carbon buildup in the 3.2 engine...

my step-father drives an a6 3.2 with the fsi engine. his check engine light has been on for a bit and he said the car has been idling really high on cold startups then going back down to the normal level. he took it into the dealership and they scanned it and found some misfiring fault codes. they said they needed to add a fuel additive because it could be carbon buildup and then wait until the next day to do another cold start. they started it today and still had the same codes/misfires. they told him that he's not using good enough gasoline and that's what's causing the buildup.

him and my mom have been running things by me because they know i like to "tinker with my car". when they first told me about the misfiring and the dealership tech saying "carbon buildup" i told them that i had read about some of the new cars having problems with this issue and since the car was still under warranty, the dealership should take care of it.

like i said, the dealership/service tech is saying that we're not using high-quality gasoline. i practically told my mom "wtf do they expect us to do? drive to the east coast for 93 or mix our own race fuel?!" (we live in cali). anyway, my mom is calling the dealership back to see what the final word is. i just wanted to post this to add some more information. i don't know all of the numbers on my step dad's car to add in any worthwhile data but i will when i can. basically, i'm just posting to keep track of this and checkout all of the info out there.

switchface

09-29-2010, 10:36 AM

Not sure this applies 100% to this situation, but thought I'd pass it along. Perhaps a step in the right direction?

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100928/CARNEWS/100929873

Volkswagen AG has agreed to pay maintenance costs under a proposed settlement in a class-action lawsuit over sludge-damaged engines in 479,768 VW and Audi models.

Judge Joseph Tauro of the U.S. District Court in Boston gave conditional approval of the settlement last week. A hearing to approve the final settlement is scheduled for March 11, 2011.

According to court documents, the settlement affects 1997-2004 Audi A4 models and 1998-2004 VW Passat models with 1.8-liter turbocharged engines.

The engines were prone to oil sludge from coking deposits even when maintained according to the automaker's recommended maintenance intervals and oil-quality specifications, court documents show.

“Each plaintiff claims that his or her vehicle was damaged or will suffer future damages as a result of the alleged sludge and coking problems,” court records show.

The multi-state suit was consolidated in Massachusetts in 2006 according to lawyers representing car owners. The suit also claims VW and Audi failed to honor an 8-year unlimited warranty extension issued in 2004 by denying claims brought by vehicle owners with sludge-related engine failures.

VW and Audi have agreed to “cover 100 percent of the maintenance costs for owners/lessees with proper documentation of required oil changes, and 50 percent for those without proper documentation,” plaintiff lawyers said in a statement today.

The settlement also provides owners and lessees eligibility for a 10-year/120,000-mile enhanced oil sludge warranty, according to a statement issued from lawyers Peter McNulty, Kirk Tresemer, and Russell Henkin, who represent the vehicle owners.

All class members who currently own or lease the covered vehicles will also receive revised oil-maintenance recommendations.

A Volkswagen AG spokeswoman said the two sides are still finalizing the settlement.

“The terms haven't been worked out--the exact compensation or remediation is not yet finalized,” the spokeswoman said.

VW said letters will be sent out to owners around Dec. 20, and the final amount of the settlement will be determined by the number and size of claims paid.

VW began notifying owners of the problem in August 2004 after receiving consumer complaints. The automaker's remedies ranged from extending warranties to covering repair costs, including complete engine replacement.

Sludge buildup can cause engine performance to deteriorate, and in extreme cases, engines to lock up.

For more Car news - Automotive Headlines, click here.

Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100928/CARNEWS/100929873#ixzz10wP9uxLV

FlaS4

12-28-2010, 05:07 PM

Here's an interesting quote from a discussion about the 335's N54 DI motor and their problems with carbon buildup and in the OP's case an extreem of leakdown and scoring of the cylinder walls on his N54 Di motor. Here's the quote from a poster on the e90 forums as weel as the link to the discussion. Good read.

"I'm coming in to this thread a bit late, but I do have an interest (I've got an N54 in an '09 Z4). And I have a couple of thoughts that might be of interest re oil and the N54.

The problems associated with direct injection engines (not just the N54 but apparently all di engines) are fairly well known by now. There have been SAE papers on the subject and research is underway by at least one piston ring manufacturer to try to address these problems. And on the BITOG (Bob Is The Oil Guy) forum, a lubricants engineer who regularly attends the 24 Hrs of the Nurburgring race, and meets with race and lubricants engineers there, recently posted rather cryptically that the topic of the hour at the last race was the problems associated with direct injection (which is becoming pretty much the standard in engine design). When I sent him a pm to ask for more information all he would say is that the problems would have to be solved by the engine mfrs, not the lube mfrs. Nice.

The problem is fuel dilution. DI engines operate on much, much higher injection pressures than the "old" port injection engines. In the N54, fuel is injected at 1200-1700 psi, compared to about 45-75 psi in a port injected engine! Pretty amazing. That means higher blow by of fuel past the rings and more "wash down" of the oil film on cylinder walls. The fuel dilution in turn causes two major problems with the oil: viscosity loss (shear back) and significant lowering of the flash point of the oil (more oil vapors form to be sucked up by the CCV system and possibly form deposits in the intake track and valves). The extra heat generated by turbo charging can exacerbate these problems. There is one study I have read about that indicates if the fuel dilution gets bad enough, it can dissolve the tribological film laid down by the anti wear additive ZDDP. Sounds like Doomsday. You have to wonder why aren't BMWs with the N54 disintegrating all over the place. Must be good metallurgy in those motors.

As owners we can't do much about the design of the N54 but we can focus on the oil. I'm not going to recommend any specific oil, but I can say if your concerned like me you probably ought to change the engine oil frequently and do used oil analysis (UOA) at a good lab (flash point measured under ASTM 93/closed cup, and % fuel dilution measured by gas chromatograph) to figure out the oil change interval (OCI). There are no absolute standards or pass/fail marks for these indicators. Each lab seems to have their own standards and I sometimes wonder if some labs have any pass/fail limits at all. I have seen N54 UOAs posted on BITOG where the oil (the BMW 5w30 factory fill) has sheared back to a 20 wt (in as little as 1500 miles OCI) and no warning or negative comment given by the lab at all. In my opinion an oil should never shear back out of grade; and I'd start to be concerned if % fuel dilution exceeds 2%, and flash point goes much below 375 degrees F. I am frankly wary of BMW's 5w30 oil, and the factory OCI of approx 15000 miles is absurd in a motor like the N54. I would use the best grade synthetic (PAO or ester base stock) I could find and afford, preferably one that meets BMW's LL-01 standard and is in the viscosity range recommended for the N54: 5w30, 5w40, 0w30, or 0w40. And I would do regular UOAs until I could figure out how the oil is performing in my particular style of driving. If your N54 is out of warranty, or you don't care about warranty questions, you can go farther afield. Some folks in the lubricants industry think that part of the answer to di is vegetable-based motor oils, or bio-syns, which appear to stand up to fuel dilution better than conventional synthetics. Others mock these lubes as Mazzola/Canola oils. I do know that Fuchs (a leader in synthetic oils since the 1930s) has recently come out with a bio-syn series of synthetics. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name (Fuchs motor oils aren't available in the U.S.).

Tony, when you get your new rat motor finished you might want to try to communicate with John Rowland, the head chemist with Fuchs, through your Fuchs distributor. He is an avid racer and can be quite forthcoming with advice for individuals using his oils. He may be able to give you some ideas on the best oil for your application.

Sorry for taking so much band width. Hope I didn't go over stuff you already know. By the way, I think the N54 is a dynamite motor and I knew all about the di problems (and the HPFP) before I bought the Z4."

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=464348

BEM3

01-18-2011, 10:44 PM

Another update…

Carbon build up again after about 7 months and less than 9,402 miles!

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 27,717 miles / 05 January 2011
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 4520 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement and valve cleaning

Issue: “Client states the check engine light is on and the car runs rough when cold and if feels really sluggish (loss of power). MPG are down. Please advise.”

Dealer invoice states: “Hooked up scan tool, verified the vehicle has had cold start misfires in cylinders 1, 3, and 5. Performed SVM update provided by shop foreman. Recommend to allow vehicle to sit overnight to verify repairs. Hooked up scan tool, opened up MVB 14 to read misfire counts during cold start. Performed cold start, zero misfires were detected. Vehicle is operating as designed at this time with no misfires.”

When I picked up the car, it was still running rough so I left it with the dealer again.

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 27,718 miles / 06 January 2011
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 4520 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement and valve cleaning

Issue: “Client states the car still feels like it is misfiring when cold.”

Dealer invoice states: “Started in AM when cold. Found while watching the misfire counter there are no misfires seen by ECM or computer but I can feel a stumble for approximately 5-7 seconds. Client declined to pick up car. I removed the intake manifold and inspected the intake valves. Found the intake valves have carbon on stems and seats. Removed carbon from valves and cleaned cylinders with shop air and brake cleaner. Mixed G17 anti-carbon fuel additive with gasoline to soak on valves. Started car and let sit. Found no misfires at this time. Found no stumbling at this time. Car is running smoothly. The client was notified the car is ready. However, he has elected to pick up the car on the following Monday”

Audi released another software upgrade, but obviously I am not confident that this is a fix. I’m now working with the dealership to replace the car. I weary of another Audi or any car with DI. There aren’t many choices since many new cars now have DI.

cleaver

01-19-2011, 07:31 AM

Geez, this is really scaring me! Sorry to hear that BEM3.
I'm 6000mi into a new short block and 5000mi into a new passenger-side head. I had a software update prior to the new head. All seems well so far, but I hope your experience isn't a foreshadowing of mine. I've got about 5 mos. left on original warranty and 12 beyond that as a goodwill gesture.
I, too, don't know what car to turn to if this doesn't work out. I want an AWD wagon and have been scared off by turbos and am now scared of direct injection. Maybe I'll have to settle for less room and look for an A3 3.2 or less power by going back to BMW (I had a 2001 330i) and look for a 328xiT.
Good luck (to all of us)!

iconoclast

01-26-2011, 10:18 PM

Technical product information Transaction No.: 478301/6
Cleaning of coked engine parts Release date: 19-Mar-2008

Customer statement / workshop findings

All petrol engines. Cleaning of coked engine components (for example: inlet valves, combustion chambers, injectors).

Technical background

Carbon deposits on injectors, combustion chamber surfaces and in the intake system can result in severe running problems following cold starting and in loss of engine power. Tests have shown that coking is mainly caused by fuels and oils with inadequate amounts of additives.

Production change

No change.

Measure

A range of cleaning processes were tested, with the help of which coking deposits can be removed. The most effective method was found to be the injection of a cleaning mixture into the running engine.

In this process, the vehicle is connected to an external fuel circuit using pressure container V.A.G1938 and a suitable adapter for the vehicle fuel pipe.

The pressure reservoir V.A.G 1938 is no longer available.

The cleaning equipment BEDI can be used instead. Please observe its operating instructions. The equipment is available from:

R.U.F

Friedhofstr. 5

67127 Rödersheim-Gronau

Tel. +49 6231 / 7390

Fax +49 6231 / 98531

E-Mail: info@lambdaglobal-deutschld.de

Internet: http://www.lambdaglobal-deutschld.de/eng_version

The cleaning procedure is performed with the engine idling and takes about 30 minutes.

In testing a range of cleaning agents, the best application results were achieved using products from the following manufacturers:

Injection System Purge,

Order number 76602,

Wynn´s Formula 766.

Available from:

Wynn´s Deutschland GmbH

Gothaer Straße 13

40880 Ratingen

Tel. No.: 0 21 02 - 48 03 00, Fax. No.: 0 21 02 - 48 03 10

Detergent for Petrol Systems Carbon Clean,

Order number 400-0020 from Carbon Clean.

Available from: Carbon Cleans Int.´l Distribution P. Reber Ch.

De Bellevue

CH-1423 Villars-Burquin

Tel. no.: 00 41 - 24 71 19 62, Fax. no.: 00 41 - 24 71 23 65

Lambda Injekt Otto - Article no. C100,

Lambda Service Tank Otto - Article no.: A100

Available from: R.U.F. Rep.- und Handels-GmbH W. Stephan

67127 Rödersheim-Gronau

Tel. No.: 0 62 31 - 73 90 or 9 85 46, Fax. No.: 0 62 31 - 9 85 31

Fuel additive for petrol engines, available under - Part No.: G 001 700.03

The cleaning agents have been developed specifically for the removal of coking deposits. There are slight differences in application and in cleaning efficiency.

In the case of combustion chamber coking (e.g. inlet valves) slight advantages were evident when using Wynn's Lambda Global cleaner

and Part No. G001 700.03.

In the case of coked injectors (reduced injection quantity with mileage), there was an advantage to using the cleaner from Carbon Clean.

* Important application instructions: The instructions of the cleaning agent manufacturers must always be observed! An engine oil change must be performed following the use of cleaning agents!

With the exception of Lambda Service Tank Otto and Part No.: G 001 700.03, the addition of cleaning agents to the petrol tank is strictly forbidden!

The preventive use of cleaning agents cannot be invoiced under warranty.

Customer information

seckler17

01-31-2011, 12:05 PM

I came over from the A6 forum. I have the same problem with my 3.2L FSI engine. The issue started showing up around 60,000 miles. The car has been in the dealer 4 times. Same symptoms many of you have, rough idle on cold start. It started out as a fuel pressure sensor code (CEL), the dealership replaced the fuel pressure sensor on the 1st trip. Problem re-surfaced a few days later, same fuel pressure CEL this time they replaced the high pressure fuel pump. Symptoms were reduced but still had rough idle during cold starts. Car back in agian (cold start missfires CEL), this time the Audi tech admitted it was carbon deposits on the intake valves. He advised me to try seafoam. My car is out of the original warranty and is still covered under the CPO warranty. I recently ran seafoam through the fuel system as well as added it through the vacuum lines to get it into the intake. This seems to have helped some, I am going to take it back to the dealer and push for the manual cleaning, although this will probably be in vain or at the least out of my pocket.

duffittw0

02-19-2011, 09:11 AM

Good afternoon,

I have been a lurker, but joined today.... I am a mechanical engineer by training (I work in IT security now) so I can grasp technical concepts. I wanted to float an idea by the forum and I apologize now if this has already been discussed, but I didn't see anything from various searches: Has anyone tried using plain old Starting Fluid (ether) in the air intake periodically when the motor is very hot? Could this help provide burn off of the carbon on the intake valves or is the carbon so heat resistant that it has zero impact? Maybe the ether could help prevent buildup by burning off residual oil before turning into carbon? Ether ignites so easily, I thought it might help keep parts of the intake and associated valves.

I just bought a 2008 Audi A4 3.2L 6-spd (Certified Pre-Owned, thank goodness!!) so I have skin in the game now! [cool]

rriter&d

03-03-2011, 11:59 AM

Hey Guys I am new to forum so let me introduce myself .
I work for a Company (doing R&D) called CAT Products in PA . We have been working closely with Audi and VW tech reps and Dealer techs and independent Specialists to come up with an answer for this "Carbon Build up on intake valves" . Over the past 3 months I have been in Dealers from Georgia to NY and PA and have developed a procedure that we recommend be done as prevntive maintenance at 20k intervals and have both Audi and VW dealers selling this process to there customers. Specific adapters were made for the 2.0t and the 3.2 and now found a case reported in Florida of a 4.2 with only 16k that had bad carbon build up. We will be working on that in the near future if we find more 4.2's with this problem. I will post pics and more info soon. ask away if you have any questions. WE ALL HAVE this problem trust me when you see the pics from my 2.0t with 45k on it. ! Unbelievable what built up on my valves. We are talking about FSI motors only here.

rriter&d

03-03-2011, 12:03 PM

They can keep updating the ECM all they want the carbon must be cleaned off the valves and then PM must be done on a regular basis or the carbon will come right back.
I feel bad you had to go thru so much crap just to get them to clean it manually.

Another update…

Carbon build up again after about 7 months and less than 9,402 miles!

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 27,717 miles / 05 January 2011
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 4520 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement and valve cleaning

Issue: “Client states the check engine light is on and the car runs rough when cold and if feels really sluggish (loss of power). MPG are down. Please advise.”

Dealer invoice states: “Hooked up scan tool, verified the vehicle has had cold start misfires in cylinders 1, 3, and 5. Performed SVM update provided by shop foreman. Recommend to allow vehicle to sit overnight to verify repairs. Hooked up scan tool, opened up MVB 14 to read misfire counts during cold start. Performed cold start, zero misfires were detected. Vehicle is operating as designed at this time with no misfires.”

When I picked up the car, it was still running rough so I left it with the dealer again.

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 27,718 miles / 06 January 2011
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 4520 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement and valve cleaning

Issue: “Client states the car still feels like it is misfiring when cold.”

Dealer invoice states: “Started in AM when cold. Found while watching the misfire counter there are no misfires seen by ECM or computer but I can feel a stumble for approximately 5-7 seconds. Client declined to pick up car. I removed the intake manifold and inspected the intake valves. Found the intake valves have carbon on stems and seats. Removed carbon from valves and cleaned cylinders with shop air and brake cleaner. Mixed G17 anti-carbon fuel additive with gasoline to soak on valves. Started car and let sit. Found no misfires at this time. Found no stumbling at this time. Car is running smoothly. The client was notified the car is ready. However, he has elected to pick up the car on the following Monday”

Audi released another software upgrade, but obviously I am not confident that this is a fix. I’m now working with the dealership to replace the car. I weary of another Audi or any car with DI. There aren’t many choices since many new cars now have DI.

rriter&d

03-03-2011, 03:17 PM

see next post for pic
All the ether in the world wont take off a GIMBER like the one in this pic hanging off my intake valve. Pic taken with snap on boroscope, before I removed intake to clean valves manually

I have been a lurker, but joined today.... I am a mechanical engineer by training (I work in IT security now) so I can grasp technical concepts. I wanted to float an idea by the forum and I apologize now if this has already been discussed, but I didn't see anything from various searches: Has anyone tried using plain old Starting Fluid (ether) in the air intake periodically when the motor is very hot? Could this help provide burn off of the carbon on the intake valves or is the carbon so heat resistant that it has zero impact? Maybe the ether could help prevent buildup by burning off residual oil before turning into carbon? Ether ignites so easily, I thought it might help keep parts of the intake and associated valves.

I just bought a 2008 Audi A4 3.2L 6-spd (Certified Pre-Owned, thank goodness!!) so I have skin in the game now! [cool][/QUOTE]

rriter&d

03-03-2011, 03:39 PM

I finally figured out how to get a pic in thread LOL see previous post for my reply. (pic is of my 08 jetta 2.0t with 45k on it)
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj133/crofoot50/gimber.jpg

frankyd021

03-10-2011, 07:31 AM

I have a 2007 A4 3.2 Quattro with serious carbon build up issues. The motor has been replaced at around 48k miles under warranty. Audi has given me an additional 12k extension for the motor. I still have constant CEL issues even with the new motor.

rriter&d

03-10-2011, 08:29 PM

Questions for you....
how many miles on the car now ? intervals between oil changes ? what brand and octane of fuel do you use ? what kind of driving shorts trips or mostly hiway ? Leadfoot driver or lite footed ? Does it run poorly or hard started when cold in the am ?

fasttoys

03-24-2011, 07:10 AM

I use RXP additive once per month or once a Q depending on the car this stuff it eats up carbon. I never had an issue in any of my 6 cars. [:D]

Audi S4 11
Porsche 911 S 05
VW 2.0L T GLI 07
BMW M5 V10 06
BMW 328 09
BMW Z4 M coupe 07

iconoclast

03-24-2011, 07:17 AM

which cars? only the 328, 2.0 and the s4 are direct injection and the s4 is too new to tell.

ASU S4

03-24-2011, 05:41 PM

burrito

iconoclast

03-24-2011, 05:43 PM

^excellent contribution.

NWS4Guy

04-16-2011, 03:05 PM

The B8 S4 has a thermostat recall under way for MY 2010 and some MY2011 cars. Doing this requires the Supercharger to be pulled. Our Supercharger sits on top of the intake runners, where you can actuate the air flaps and see directly down to the intake valves. CB appears to have been sucessfully defeated for the B8 S4 from this picture a friend with 30,000 miles on his B8 S4 was able to get when they took his Supercharger off:

I must say these look gorgeous for 30K miles!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/Ookane/S4/photo1.jpg

Phknlwyr

05-17-2011, 01:32 PM

2007 Audi S6
Rockville, Maryland
51k as of May 2011
Mobile One 0W 40
Every 5k miles
Always 93 Octane Exxon or Shell
20 miles to and from court most days

I am the second owner, having acquired the car in February 2009 with 14k on the clock. No mods to the car...yet. It's my daily driver. The car started throwing CEL codes in the Fall 2010 when I made a very hard acceleration. The light would flash repeatedly and then stay solid. The first time this happened in November 2010, Audi replaced my coilpacks and air intake flap motor under warranty and the applicable TSB. That cured the CEL for about a week. Another hard acceleration and the CEL was back on. I then noticed that the car bogged down very noticably at 4,000 rpm. It would struggle to accelerate and hard a hard time increasing rpm's. Again, the CEL would flash. I went to the delear in April and they reset the CEL and updated certain software (I do not have the exact software since they still have my car and do not have final paperwork). I was told by the head mechanic there that my car was misfiring very badly on cold starts. The software update seemed to cure the misfires on cold start...for about three days. After the software update, I drove the car three days later and threw an engine code. Back to the dealer with VAG-COM report in hand showing misfires in cylinders 5, 6, & 10. They suggested the 55k service. I suggested that they contact AoA about carbon issues. They got the 55k service from me and I got a full carbon cleaning from them. Picking up the car in 30 minutes. Should be interesting with new plugs, new oil, new filters, and no carbon deposits.

BEM3

05-22-2011, 10:48 PM

cleaver

05-24-2011, 07:09 AM

Update: Due to my continued dissatisfaction with the engine replacement, carbon build-up and cylinder wall wear on my 2008 A4 3.2l Quattro Sedan, Barrier Audi and Audi of America offered their Trade Assist Program where they purchased my A4 back at an agreed to price and sold me a new 2011 S4 Sedan at a discounted price. I ordered the S4 back in late February and it arrived last Friday. The S4 is an absolutely amazing car. I have to give kudos to Barrier Audi for their help, especially since I purchased the A4 new from another dealer, and thank Audi of America for stepping up and making things right.

Well good for you BEM3; I hope you'll be happy. I'm at about 7k on my new 3.2 short block and 6k on a new passenger-side head; so far, so good. I'm off factory warranty now and on 12/12 "good will" extended warranty at University. I only hope things continue to be OK, as I really want a wagon and Audi only offers FSI 2.0T wagons now in the A4.

AudiDr1

05-30-2011, 04:09 PM

We see carbon related issues on a daily basis now, some drivers have tried all kinds of additives to help but nothing seem to work but manual cleaning.
we been using 10w-60 on a few FSI engine for a while now with very positive results, lower oil consumption by a lot and so far hardly any carbon in the intake runners and intake valves.http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g474/s4master1/IMG_1458.jpg?t=1306796891http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g474/s4master1/IMG_1414-1.jpg?t=1306796891

iconoclast

05-30-2011, 04:50 PM

Update: Due to my continued dissatisfaction with the engine replacement, carbon build-up and cylinder wall wear on my 2008 A4 3.2l Quattro Sedan, Barrier Audi and Audi of America offered their Trade Assist Program where they purchased my A4 back at an agreed to price and sold me a new 2011 S4 Sedan at a discounted price. I ordered the S4 back in late February and it arrived last Friday. The S4 is an absolutely amazing car. I have to give kudos to Barrier Audi for their help, especially since I purchased the A4 new from another dealer, and thank Audi of America for stepping up and making things right.

lol, i would do that in hearbeat... makes all the craziness worthwhile.

routertyty

06-10-2011, 10:26 AM

Does model year 2011 have this same issue?

405Z

06-28-2011, 09:20 AM

You can add me to the list. 2007 RS4, 25K km, oil changes every 6 months at dealer (Castrol) and Shell V Power 91. The car is primarily city driven and sees both granny style driving as well as low gear-high rpm and WOT bursts.

Got the CEL due to multiple misfires when cold. They gave me a couple of bottles of additive and I'm supposed to take the car out for an extended run with it. I'm positive it won't do anything but manual cleaning will not be covered at this point.

tsmitty

06-30-2011, 04:40 PM

Great thread. I wonder if Audi's treatment of this issue is improving? Granted, when I think about it, the process I've gone through has been a lengthy one - but my experience has been pretty good in all. My '09 S5 has 27,600 miles on it. Like clockwork, I started experiencing the usual symptoms around 26,000 miles. When my car started misfiring, I took it into the dealership, pretty certain of what the issue was. The additive was the first step. I was surprised that it actually worked pretty well. Then the chronic CELs started. Took it back, they didn't find anything, but provided Audi with a data dump from my car's computer. A month or so later, Audi told the dealer to replace all of my fuel injectors. So they did, and in so doing discovered the usual carbon deposits - which they scrubbed off. This has been done all the while providing me with a 2011 A6 to putter around in. All told, it's pretty hard for me to complain. Still, I don't relish having all this work done when my car goes off warranty in a few years!

njs509

11-01-2011, 11:38 AM

Jacon

11-06-2011, 06:49 PM

i have a 2009 s5 and i just used seafoam to clean it out. i can see i 100% feel a difference. i used to had rough idle when it was cold or sometimes even when it was nice out. i felt a little lag when gunning it .

I was wondering if anyone had tried this. It was an old trick many would use on the old VR6 and 18t motors

ecrew16

12-19-2011, 01:50 AM

2008 S5
65k miles
91 Chevron or Shell
Oil changes every 5000-7000 miles
75% highway/25% city

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/449739-Intake-Mainifold-Carbon-Build-Up-Cleaning-*Pic-Heavy*

http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6cd89d4-31c6-9399.jpg
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3963/dsc6400x.jpg
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/7362/dsc6386j.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/7658/dsc6387w.jpg
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/4845/img2551r.jpg
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/863/dsc6390f.jpg
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/9526/dsc6396z.jpg
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/369/dsc6409.jpg
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4479/dsc6412e.jpg
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2889/dsc6421s.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3155/dsc6413.jpg
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/7097/dsc6416y.jpg
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/6987/dsc6418.jpg

Midwestuser1

01-09-2012, 09:36 AM

Does anyone know if the 2010/2011 A6 added a secondary fuel injector to keep the carbon build up off of the vavles?

drfuelinstein

01-21-2012, 01:40 PM

All this habub about carbon deposits and the supposed solutions leads me to ask with one of the finest pieces of automotive technology ever developed?

1) What is the scientific causal mechanism for carbon deposits?

2) Is there really a Top Teir Gasoline? Really? what is the difference? Can you prove it?

3) I would ask from all the solution providers from Sea-foam to techron and everything in between..
If you really know the scientific causal mechanism for this phenomena please inform the rest of us?

Danarone

02-10-2012, 12:36 PM

Fellow Audi enthusiasts, the carbon buildup problem we face is not solely Audi’s fault. Fighting with Audi will get us nowhere, and may eventually hurt the Audi brand and the resale value of our vehicles.

The lion’s share of guilt lies with government agencies and environmentalists who place an undue burden on auto manufacturers. In the end, it’s the consumer of Direct Injected (DI) engines from BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi who pay the price in the form of expensive repairs due to carbon buildup.
Why?
Because the EPA and EEA force manufacturers to install antiquated emission control systems on modern engines, even if the system is unnecessary and incompatible. EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) and PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) made sense in 1970 when big displacement carbureted engines pumped raw fuel into the crankcase and exhaust. But DI engines have computer controlled intake systems and highly specialized systems that all but eliminate wasteful byproducts compared to their ancestors. These engines provide a nearly perfect ratio of fuel-to-air and minimal by products from combustion. Yet the EPA and EEA continue to force manufacturers to suffocate and choke these engines with outdated, complicated emission control systems designed for 1970’s dinosaurs. This is what leads to the carbon buildup.

In 1997 The Union of Concerned Scientists compared the emissions of modern cars to pre-control cars. They found 75% less carbon monoxide, 87% less hydrocarbons and 60% less nitrogen oxides. Bear in mind this is a group that would like to severely limit or ban automobile use. Regardless of your politics, you must admit those are some impressive reductions in vehicle emissions. You also must also admit that there is a point of diminishing returns—the point where you are fighting the basic physics of internal combustion to reach an unattainable goal. I believe we have reached that point.

The solution?
I believe we should join forces with enthusiasts from BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota and Volkswagen. Together we can encourage the manufacturers to use their lobbying influence and legal prowess to demand change. We seek to scrap the antiquated emission control technologies and develop emission control systems that are optimized for modern engines. The new emission control systems would be offered by manufacturers as a retrofit solution to owners of direct injection engines with carbon buildup. Moving forward, the process of exploring new ways to reduce emissions could produce vehicles that delight drivers and protect the environment in ways yet unimagined.
Are you with me?

Dan

vandelizer

02-14-2012, 11:44 AM

I posted this on the pics section, but it looks like here is where most people are posting their car/driving/gas type/oil change stats, which is what this post also has, so I'll re-post it here:

Car: 2006 A4 B7 S-Line Fronttrak (2nd owner)
Mileage: 87,XXX (lots of high way miles)
Gas: 91 oct and 93 oct
Driving styles: Spirited driving, no racing or track days
Extras: Carbonio Cold Air Intake, PCV update, All recalls done, 034 Motorsports turbo intake hose, All maintenance done on time at Certified Audi Service center, Oil changes done every 5,000 miles at Audi
Engine Block all cylinders pic –
Cylinder head 1 w/ burnt valves due to carbon build-up, cylinder 1 PSI = 90, instead of 150 as in the other 3 cylinders
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/558/Engine_block_all_cylinders_pic.jpg
Improper valve seating in Cylinder 1 -

Light shining through valve in cylinder 1 to show improper seating
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/558/improper_valve_seating_in_cyln_1.jpg
Faulty valve in cylinder 1 carbon build-up
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/558/Faulty_valve_in_cylinder_1_carbon_build-up.jpg
Faulty valve in cylinder 1 carbon build-up view 2
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/558/Faulty_valve_in_cylinder_1_carbon_build-up_pic_2.jpg
intake port and valves cyln 1
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/558/intake_port_and_valves_cyln_1.jpg
intake port and valves cyln 2
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/558/intake_port_and_valves_cyln_2.jpg
intake port and valves cyln 3
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/558/intake_port_and_valves_cyln_3.jpg
intake port and valves cyln 4
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/558/intake_port_and_valves_cyln_4.jpg
To make a long and somewhat painful story shorter, here is a bullet list of what happened (with a happy ending):
- Noticed rough idle and running rough in lower gears, at higher RPM not noticeable
- 10-30 miles later check engine light came on
- Stopped by a near by auto zone to have them read the code, cylinder 1 miss fire
- replaced spark plugs, check engine light ~30 miles later
- replaced coil packs, check engine light couple miles later
- took to audi, they said fouled up fuel injector (replaced by extended warranty) didn't fix problem
- Audi asked to tear down engine, 8 hours of labor would be covered by me if the faulty part was NOT covered by extended warranty
- 2 weeks since I took my car in (some delay due to parts not in stock, some delay due to me asking for pictures from dealership, and some delay due to private company inspection authorized by extended warranty company) tech noticed burnt valves in cylinder 1. I asked repeatedly for the service adviser to check for carbon build-up issues during the engine tear down (the reason I requested pictures). I was assured by the service adviser that the carbon build-up was minimal especially for the year and number of miles. I pushed the carbon build-up issue, and asked if that was the cause of the burnt valve, they said they weren't sure. Could be faulty valve lifter, could be the way it was driven (too hard), could be several things. WTH!?
- I spoke with extended warranty company, they said they would send out a private vehicle inspector to determine the cause of the problem. They determined the fault was caused by carbon build-up.
- I was told the extended warranty would not cover the burnt valve, therefore, to fix problem I owed $4,200 to replace cylinder head 1 on engine.
- I flipped
- Calmly spoke with the service adviser and asked to speak with the service manager. Told both, I have had my car serviced here for every single maintenance (except one down at a different Audi dealership), and said so what you're telling me that even though I pay a hefty price to keep my vehicle properly maintained I can expect this type of problem to happen. Also mentioned that if I were to pay for this problem to be fixed I don't want it to happen again soon, for instance, to cylinder 2,3, and/or 4. I asked how would they prevent this from happening again. They said these things happen, but they would speak with Audi Tech (Audi of America) to determine the appropriate action.
-Service Manager ( Thankfully a respectable man who stood behind his work) Robert Fletcher of Audi of Albuquerque, said he worked with Audi Tech and they authorized a 1-time good will 50/50 servicing. Essentially, I would pay half and Audi would pay the other half. Also they removed the labor charge for the engine tear down, oh and Mr. Fletcher assured me they would clean the other cylinders, including intake ports and back of valves. Replaced timing belt as well, since engine was torn down already.
- I was given peace of mind that I would not have to worry about this again, at least not for another 87,XXX miles. All for ~$1,600
- The difference was night and day. I was driving a brand new 2012 A3 TDI for the approx 3 weeks I was waiting to fix my car. Of course I was expecting my 2006 car to run at least a little rougher than the brand new loaner (especially since I have a leaky motor mount which leads to a little more engine feeling in the cabin of the car, but it was not in horrible condition.). I was wrong, my car is purring like a kitten, and it is so smooth! I am so happy with the results. It sounds so good, and the higher RPM pull is a huge difference!! Not sure about the MPG difference yet since its been less than a week, but I'll find out. Hope this info helps someone