converting to DBW and MAF-less chip tune

[JK35]

I have given up on the idea of running standalone EMS on my BT B5 TQM project. I have read rave reviews on both Unitronics AND Tapps MAF-less tunes for the DBW guys, and am SERIOUSLY considering making the conversion. I need any help on this I can find!
And as long as I get some good solid info to begin from, I am fully confident I can pull this off AND publish a concise "how to" thread on the conversion with complete shopping list and step by step, with lots of photos.

My project car is a 1997 Audi A4 Quattro 1.8T Manual
-Original 058 AEB bored to 83mm
-Stroked to 2009cc's via OBD1 ABA forged crankshaft
-Integrated Engineering 20mmx144mm chromoly H-beam Connecting Rods
-ARP Rod Bolts
-ARP Main Studs
-JE Forged stroker pistons, 8.5:1 CR
-All new bolts/gaskets/oil pump of course, fresh build...
-Original 058 AEB Head being worked over as we speak (valve job, light port/polish)
-Supertech Inconel exhaust/Black Nitride intake valves with single groove keepers
-Supertech High Rev springs/Ti retainers
-Cat Cams 3652 camshafts
-Adjustable cam gear, new guides, proper performance build...
-Tial-Garrett GT3076R .82 A/R
-equal length tubular manifold from 1.5" sch10 SS
-Tial 44mm Wastegate, 1.75" open dump
-Tial 50mm BOV (open atmosphere of course)
-31x12x3 FMIC 2.5" In/out, 2.5" hardpipes
-3" straight exhaust & downpipe. minimal bends, haven't chosen muffler yet, may not use one...
-Lightweight's single nozzle methanol injection system

I have a NOS brand nitrous system, it is the sportsman fogger system for 4 cyl. but we'll leave that out of the equation until things are up and running smoothly

OK, for fueling, I have a Walbro GS341 (255L/H in tank) and a Fuel Lab AFPR. I intended to get an
034 Motorsport/OBX Fuel Rail, surge tank and -AN line to and from the OEM tank. I had also thought about running an Aeromotive A1000 or one of the new Fuelab digital pumps after the swirl pot or on it's own, but Basically, I'm going to wait to hear some recommendations on the fueling.


So far I have sourced: 2002 Jetta Donor car engine code AWP with manual transmission
And from that I figure I'll need
-ECU
-complete engine harness
-WB02 sensor + it's harness
-DBW throttle body
-DBW gas pedal/cable
-Instrument cluster + harness


What I need to know is whether or not this is the RIGHT stuff to convert my car so I CAN run a MAF-less 830cc tune, and also whether or not I'm going to need to try to gather anything else off this donor car???
As always, any help will be gratefully appreciated!

[Don Supreme]

Wow --- some work ahead of you.

Probably need to swap coils too.


Honestly, given that your in FL (no emissions) I would go with the stand alone.

[JK35]

it's really a toss up between this massive conversion and a chip, or AEM standalone + about $1k-$1500 worth of custom harness, a wiring nightmare and tuning hell for months.

I have found no other options which I am comfortable with!

[Don Supreme]

Why AEM? You have many options.

[mike-2ptzero]

Seems odd when other people actually convert from DBW to DBC so they can go stand alone. Only bad thing about doing chip is that it is so limited if you really want to start tweaking your tune or making any changes down the road. Sorry but there is no such thing as the "perfect" ecu tune.


BTW if you go surge tank you dont need AN line from the tank seeing that you dont need all that much fuel pumped from the main tank to the surge tank and this is because you also run a return line from the fuel rail to the surge tank, this means the surge tank actually has 2 supply lines(rail and main tank). I actually just got done doing a dual 044 pump setup with a surge tank and a single intake pump. Here is my thread about it http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=271171

[Enclave]

The wiring isnt really that bad. Unless your doing milspec wiring with DR-25 and glue shrinked boots. Otherwise you could just tap the stock harness near the ecu box.

[dwi_gti]

why have you writen off lugtronic plug and play?

[4inchMAF]

why have you writen off lugtronic plug and play?

yeah, what he said ^^^^

[AudiA4_20T]

to add to this, if you wanted to keep AEM, why couldn't you just buy another engine harness for $200-300 on Ebay or something?

[JK35]

I ponied up and bought this: http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=63
It's an AEM 30-1900U plus I ordered 2 wideband sensor kits, a few other new AEM sensors and am trying to decide whether I really want to build a harness or just buy the 30-2900-72 for another $625 (least I've found it for so far) It is a really nice harness with fuse block/relays
http://nrgtechparts.com/aem_advanced_engine_management/aem_ems_sensors_and_replacement_parts/30213050/i-48091.aspx

I went with AEM, because there is SUPPORT for it, and I can find AEM tuners anywhere. -Kick a trash can and two or three AEM tuners jump up and give you an attitude [:p]
Seriously though, The conversion to DBW just to run a damned chip tune. -well, it seems somewhat logical considering the benefits, But at the end of the day, it's only a chip tune, and can never be anything else.
With my AEM, I can run ANYTHING. High-Z or Low-Z injectors. If the SPECIFIC injector I want to run isn't already "developed" I can send them to AEM and they're all too eager to test and tune on the injector and publish usable downloads for everyone to use. I can run ANY ignition except for self-ignited. I can control way more than I'll ever need and then some. Meth injection, multi stage nitrous, traction control, speed and/or gear dependent functions, boost control, anything... In fact, I hope someone chimes in pointing out something it's incapable of that I missed[confused] It's just the baddest ass standalone I have found.
Oh, and it IS a standalone, unlike others that require you to keep a factory computer for creature comforts.
I know I'll be pulling some hair out setting this up and getting the base tune, but I have the full support of AEM. (Personally guaranteed support, by several members of AEM Tech Support and Product Development staff) as AEM is interested in selling more products to the Audi/VW crowd since I convinced one of their staff to visit Audizine and the Vortex. They were shocked to see how many of us there really are, and the types of modifications we're doing to these cars.
By the way, there's a guy on VWV named Kostya who is parting a 2002 VW Jetta. He has EVERYTHING and is up for making a package deal for anyone wanting to do a conversion to DBW for running one of the MAF-less chip tunes. His asking price for everything shipped was about what I expected to spend on a good ME7 ECU...
If anyone else is interested in the AEM 30-1900U, I can try to keep installation pics and notes once I get started on the install. just let me know[wrench]

[Don Supreme]

The fact that you talked AEM staff members into giving us a little attention is pretty cool. Otherwise, I would say all those AEM tuners may know AEM, but they don't know the 1.8t.... which counts for something.

Good luck and keep us updated.

[JK35]

Well.... I just happened to call AEM tech Support at the right time, and just so happened to get the right person on the phone...
AEM REALLY has a lot to offer! Their PnP ECU's have been successfully used outside of their intended makes for many years. The "recent" debut and release of the 30-1900U stirred some wake on AEM's forum, as it was originally only available through certain certified and authorized AEM installer/dealers, and only permitted to be installed by those select, specially trained AEM affiliates.
Universal Engine Management System*
AEM’s Universal Programmable Engine Management System adapts to any race vehicle using the company’s flying lead wiring harness and sensors (sold separately). In addition to the features found in our Plug & Play EMS, AEM’s Universal EMS also includes 10 independent, built-in peak & hold injector driver channels, direct drive ignition and dual wideband UEGO controllers. Peak & Hold injector drivers enable users to utilize low impedance injectors with a true 4/1 Peak & Hold injector drive circuit. The Direct Drive ignition feature allows users to drive a coil directly from the ECU without the need for an igniter or ignition module, and a wideband UEGO controller is an essential tuning tool that provides a 0-5 signal for monitoring and tuning air/fuel ratios (AFR) on heavily modified high-performance engines.

System is fully enabled—Never pay for upgrades!
Runs on Windows™ compatible software
Live help window eases tuning process
Free software updates on aempower.com
Fuel table automapping
Programmable traction control
Onboard 512kb datalogger
Up to 10 cylinder sequential fuel injection
10 independent peak & hold injector drivers
Direct drive ignition feature eliminates need for igniter or ignition module
On-board wideband UEGO controller
6 general-purpose outputs
7 definable switch inputs
Electronic boost control
Soft cut rev limiters
Two step launch control
Wet or dry nitrous control
Definable knock control
Full idle control
4 EGT inputs with fuel control
16/32 hybrid high speed processor

back in '05, AEM posted a dedicated thread concerning the Universal EMS:
http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php/topic,12215.0.html
There's two slow growing sub-forums which pertain to this standalone and it's 30-1902U sibling. (+ a couple others)

While my 30-1900U has 5 ignition outputs (Were they thinking about 5cyl. Audis when the designed this, or is it purely coincidental[confused] ) the 1902U has even MORE ignition outputs for full sequential ignition on V8's.

I believe this standalone will provide the most effective engine management solution, and the setup wizards from within the tuning software DOES make AEM a little simpler when it comes to base maps and the precarious initial startup. All the correct options are present and accounted for, and it will just be a matter of answering the series of questions asked by the Setup Wizard which will hopefully result in a close enough base tuning to get my new stroker motor sucking, squeezing, banging and blowing without spitting, gagging, wheezing and choking too badly

As for what's left to sort out:
-Fueling System
-Ignition
-Cooling
I am really interested in Mike's dual 044 pump/surge tank system & I'm also liking what I see/hear about Fuelab's new digital pumps.

I'd love to try out these injectors
http://www.moranmotorsports.com/products/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=63&products_id=174&osCsid=23dc1758bbd44660ddff020f6dbbdb40
but I'm afraid that despite their positive characteristics, they're just so damned big that I don't know whether they'd work for me or not.
$750 for 4 injectors isn't exactly cheap[o_o]

I can use any dumb coil, but I'm definitely going to replace my existing stock coils with something else. I am also wondering if a CDI amplifier is a worthwhile investment[confused]

Then there's the cooling... because I know there's no way my stock radiator and stock oil cooler are going to support much more than 1-2 quarter mile runs or 1-2 dyno pulls at a time. I'd much prefer something that's designed for performance, and rated to at least something near the kind of power levels I hope to achieve. Anyone have any suggestions?

[AudiA4_20T]

Well.... I just happened to call AEM tech Support at the right time, and just so happened to get the right person on the phone...
AEM REALLY has a lot to offer! Their PnP ECU's have been successfully used outside of their intended makes for many years. The "recent" debut and release of the 30-1900U stirred some wake on AEM's forum, as it was originally only available through certain certified and authorized AEM installer/dealers, and only permitted to be installed by those select, specially trained AEM affiliates.
Universal Engine Management System*
AEM’s Universal Programmable Engine Management System adapts to any race vehicle using the company’s flying lead wiring harness and sensors (sold separately). In addition to the features found in our Plug & Play EMS, AEM’s Universal EMS also includes 10 independent, built-in peak & hold injector driver channels, direct drive ignition and dual wideband UEGO controllers. Peak & Hold injector drivers enable users to utilize low impedance injectors with a true 4/1 Peak & Hold injector drive circuit. The Direct Drive ignition feature allows users to drive a coil directly from the ECU without the need for an igniter or ignition module, and a wideband UEGO controller is an essential tuning tool that provides a 0-5 signal for monitoring and tuning air/fuel ratios (AFR) on heavily modified high-performance engines.

System is fully enabled—Never pay for upgrades!
Runs on Windows™ compatible software
Live help window eases tuning process
Free software updates on aempower.com
Fuel table automapping
Programmable traction control
Onboard 512kb datalogger
Up to 10 cylinder sequential fuel injection
10 independent peak & hold injector drivers
Direct drive ignition feature eliminates need for igniter or ignition module
On-board wideband UEGO controller
6 general-purpose outputs
7 definable switch inputs
Electronic boost control
Soft cut rev limiters
Two step launch control
Wet or dry nitrous control
Definable knock control
Full idle control
4 EGT inputs with fuel control
16/32 hybrid high speed processor

back in '05, AEM posted a dedicated thread concerning the Universal EMS:
http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php/topic,12215.0.html
There's two slow growing sub-forums which pertain to this standalone and it's 30-1902U sibling. (+ a couple others)

While my 30-1900U has 5 ignition outputs (Were they thinking about 5cyl. Audis when the designed this, or is it purely coincidental[confused] ) the 1902U has even MORE ignition outputs for full sequential ignition on V8's.

I believe this standalone will provide the most effective engine management solution, and the setup wizards from within the tuning software DOES make AEM a little simpler when it comes to base maps and the precarious initial startup. All the correct options are present and accounted for, and it will just be a matter of answering the series of questions asked by the Setup Wizard which will hopefully result in a close enough base tuning to get my new stroker motor sucking, squeezing, banging and blowing without spitting, gagging, wheezing and choking too badly

As for what's left to sort out:
-Fueling System
-Ignition
-Cooling
I am really interested in Mike's dual 044 pump/surge tank system & I'm also liking what I see/hear about Fuelab's new digital pumps.

I'd love to try out these injectors
http://www.moranmotorsports.com/products/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=63&products_id=174&osCsid=23dc1758bbd44660ddff020f6dbbdb40
but I'm afraid that despite their positive characteristics, they're just so damned big that I don't know whether they'd work for me or not.
$750 for 4 injectors isn't exactly cheap[o_o]

I can use any dumb coil, but I'm definitely going to replace my existing stock coils with something else. I am also wondering if a CDI amplifier is a worthwhile investment[confused]

Then there's the cooling... because I know there's no way my stock radiator and stock oil cooler are going to support much more than 1-2 quarter mile runs or 1-2 dyno pulls at a time. I'd much prefer something that's designed for performance, and rated to at least something near the kind of power levels I hope to achieve. Anyone have any suggestions?

A. those injectors are so overkill its not even funny. Mike is finally maxing out his 1000ccs now with 630whp. What are your power goals?

B. The stock radiator has been fine with high hp applications, it's more the turbo cooling (intercooler, W/M) and such that you need to worry about. I would agree that an oil cooler would certainly help though

[Beemer832]

AEM stuff looks very promising although I have never taken the time to really look at what they have to offer. The LugTronics stuff is a complete engine mangement system, you pull the OEM ECU and replace with their box. The OEM harness connects directly to the box and the feel of their software is similar to MegaTune.

I would take a look at this if I were you. Kevin is a great guy to talk to and is loaded with information. Jake (crazyass713) is running this setup and he seems to like it thus far although he hasn't had a ton of time to really fine tune it.

just my $.02

-josh

[dwi_gti]

Hate to say it but i think you made the wrong desicions. Everything AEM can do the Lugtronic can do. Also dont know why you are sooo worried about tuning, keven has tuned cars while he was in a differnt state. Lugtronic can data record right to the unit, send it off to Keven via email 20mins later he sends you a tweaked Map. repeat that 2 or 3 times and your have a great tune, only thing left to do is a dynotune. But o well whtas done is done, goodluck with AEM

[lowandslow4now]

Is there a website for lugtronic and how much do they run for?

Sorry for the thread jack.

[b5a4gt28]

Very interesting info. Good luck with the AEM as you will probably the first to run it in a b5 or maybe even a Audi or Volkswagen.

[Enclave]

Hate to say it but i think you made the wrong desicions. Everything AEM can do the Lugtronic can do. Also dont know why you are sooo worried about tuning, keven has tuned cars while he was in a differnt state. Lugtronic can data record right to the unit, send it off to Keven via email 20mins later he sends you a tweaked Map. repeat that 2 or 3 times and your have a great tune, only thing left to do is a dynotune. But o well whtas done is done, goodluck with AEM

In my opinion, he should go with whatever system that has local support. I've purchased an Autronic system from Kevin and he was great about it but it was never running right for me (crank triggering issues). The problem was basically I was in socal and he was on the east coast. Sometimes its not just the matter of tuning (All standalone systems are the same in that regard) but some issues that require him to actually be there. I'm not trying to take anything away from Kevin, he gave me full support to the best of his abilities and is a great guy. Its too bad I never got to try that lugtronic stuff.

To JK35:
Your gonna have some issues with your AEB idle control I can guarantee that. I wish someone would get the motor characterized so we can control it better.

[dwi_gti]

Lugtronic has a idle control valve that can bump up the idle solving that problem, it really can do pritty much anything you require it to do.

[killa]

A good mafless file is baddass.

[JK35]

A. those injectors are so overkill its not even funny. Mike is finally maxing out his 1000ccs now with 630whp. What are your power goals?
over 1000 crank on the 3582 + alcohol + direct port nitrous
B. The stock radiator has been fine with high hp applications, it's more the turbo cooling (intercooler, W/M) and such that you need to worry about. I would agree that an oil cooler would certainly help though
I want road course durability, and while the stock radiator can and does do an admirable job for short bursts, I seriously doubt it will support the GT3076r at max effort.


My MRE Powertips are being "detuned" -they start right at 1300cc's and are capable of more than I'll ever come close to needing. So they're not quite as hardcore as the Moran Motorsports page might lead you to think[;)]

Of all I've seen, I think Mike's VR6 Throttle body is the best solution.
Mike, when you said to me earlier, that your TB has an adjustment screw, I didn't realize it was a potentiometer! That really makes the VR6 an attractive TB. My AEM has instructions for wiring up stepper motor idle control, but then there's some conflicting data from AEM also.
Anyone used anything else besides stock or VR6?

Infinity Q45's and Mustang throttlebody's alike are common among other makes (for swapping in)

I have to agree with you, Killa. a good Mafless tune is a hell of a nice way to go. I just decided to shoot for the moon with my build.

BTW, Does anyone here know of any good online sources for mil-spec connectors/wire/race wiring/relays/tools for such?

[mike-2ptzero]

I want road course durability, and while the stock radiator can and does do an admirable job for short bursts, I seriously doubt it will support the GT3076r at max effort.


My MRE Powertips are being "detuned" -they start right at 1300cc's and are capable of more than I'll ever come close to needing. So they're not quite as hardcore as the Moran Motorsports page might lead you to think[;)]

Of all I've seen, I think Mike's VR6 Throttle body is the best solution.
Mike, when you said to me earlier, that your TB has an adjustment screw, I didn't realize it was a potentiometer! That really makes the VR6 an attractive TB. My AEM has instructions for wiring up stepper motor idle control, but then there's some conflicting data from AEM also.
Anyone used anything else besides stock or VR6?

Infinity Q45's and Mustang throttlebody's alike are common among other makes (for swapping in)

I have to agree with you, Killa. a good Mafless tune is a hell of a nice way to go. I just decided to shoot for the moon with my build.

BTW, Does anyone here know of any good online sources for mil-spec connectors/wire/race wiring/relays/tools for such?


There have been plenty of other people that road race their cars all the time and they were all using stock radiator. It is the S4's that have a problem with it since they use the same exact size radiator we do for a much larger engine. Even TJM was using the stock radiator on his race car that he entered into the 1.8t challenge. It was making well over 400whp at the 1.8t challenge in 2004, so I am sure if it worked for him its going to work for you. Believe me in the 12+ years the A4 1.8t has been on the market you are not the first one to go big power and use it for road racing. LOL

Funny thing is out of all the A4's that are used for road racing I dont think one of them uses a aftermarket radiator, but then I dont think there actually is any on the market for the A4.

[Enclave]

I want road course durability, and while the stock radiator can and does do an admirable job for short bursts, I seriously doubt it will support the GT3076r at max effort.


My MRE Powertips are being "detuned" -they start right at 1300cc's and are capable of more than I'll ever come close to needing. So they're not quite as hardcore as the Moran Motorsports page might lead you to think[;)]

Of all I've seen, I think Mike's VR6 Throttle body is the best solution.
Mike, when you said to me earlier, that your TB has an adjustment screw, I didn't realize it was a potentiometer! That really makes the VR6 an attractive TB. My AEM has instructions for wiring up stepper motor idle control, but then there's some conflicting data from AEM also.
Anyone used anything else besides stock or VR6?

Infinity Q45's and Mustang throttlebody's alike are common among other makes (for swapping in)

I have to agree with you, Killa. a good Mafless tune is a hell of a nice way to go. I just decided to shoot for the moon with my build.

BTW, Does anyone here know of any good online sources for mil-spec connectors/wire/race wiring/relays/tools for such?

If you get AEM to characterize the idle control on VAG DBC TB, be sure to share the information [:D]

Anyway for race wiring supplies try this:

This one doesnt have a catalog but if you email the owner, neel, about your project he will help you out. They are AEM dealers also if that helps:
http://www.apexspeedtech.com/

[turbo944s2]

Anyone every convert a 2000 A4 dbw, to 2001 a4 dbw with wideband?