Some Engine Porn

[CO AVANT]

Got some stuff done and bolted up to the engine yesterday. Just got my sprung clutch disc in yesterday too, then realized I didn't have new pilot and release bearings lol. Hopefully audi gets them in later this week so I can drop the engine back on the tranny this weekend. Still need to replace the timing belt too (damaged during shipping).

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb103/coavant/IMG_0736.jpg?t=1209486814

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb103/coavant/IMG_0737.jpg?t=1209486878

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb103/coavant/IMG_0738.jpg?t=1209486901

[jursch2211]

OMFG! Beautiful!!

[akaEsCo01]

engine porn indeed, very nice [up]

[crankya4man]

I just busted a nut!!!

[mtbrider]

nice

[Maverick]

look so fresh. nice man!

[quattro16]

Nice MANI. What kind?

[Don Supreme]

APR Stage 3, iconel, t25 manifold.

[zbrock06]

Beautiful, Very Nice!!

[dougyfresh]

That engine is spotless!

What size studs did you use to mount the turbo to the manifold? 10mm?

[AudiBama]

*fap fap fap*

[CO AVANT]

The studs were already in the mani when you sold it to me. I just used those again. Even thermal coated over them when that process was done. Thanks for the kind words guys, I'm really stoked to have this thing back in my garage for a change [wrench] I'm really glad I labeled most of the hardware. Saved me a lot of time looking around for that certain nut/bolt. [up]

[junkie1.8TQ]

looks awesome man... wooooo

[dougyfresh]

The studs were already in the mani when you sold it to me. I just used those again. Even thermal coated over them when that process was done. Thanks for the kind words guys, I'm really stoked to have this thing back in my garage for a change [wrench] I'm really glad I labeled most of the hardware. Saved me a lot of time looking around for that certain nut/bolt. [up]

Hmm. I can't remember what size those were.

I'm going to drill out my manifold and tap it for 10mm studs (http://www.034motorsport.com/product_info.php?cPath=40_55&products_id=146). I think I'll also have to drill out the holes in my 2871R (think they are dilled for 8mm) so the studs will fit. I'm not happy with how the 8mm studs keep loosening up and shearing off with the 28RS. The turbo is fine but the manifold keeps taking a beating. The 10mm should not move or loosen up. [up] Even without those locking tabs (http://www.034motorsport.com/product_info.php?cPath=40_56&products_id=1329) (Probably not gonna use them).

I think the treadstone-style manifold just places the turbo and that T25 flange in such an overhung location. With the exhaust system and the overhung turbo there's a huge moment arm on that T25 flange. Unfortunately there is no room to make a brace since the engine mount and wastegate actuator are in the way. Well, I say that because I'd rather have a brace in compression (going down to the block) than in tension (coming off the valve cover).

[CO AVANT]

yes I think they are 10mm studs. Not taking it off again to check though. I'm also using the nord lock washers. Even got mini nord lock washers on the mani to block connection. I think the apr mani has a better structural design for the way it supports the turbo. I can see how the Treadstone mani could have problems...

[dougyfresh]

You can tell just by looking at 'em. The studs in the head are 8mm and are noticeably smaller. Or, do you recall having to use two different sockets/wrenches to put the manifold onto the head and to put the turbo onto the manifold? IE: larger tool for the turbo/manifold connection..

[winston@podi.ca]

It's about time that pretty piece arrived at your place.

[DeanUW]

Holy Clean! Looks sick!

[jrau13]

[hail][hail][hail][race][race]

[romell]

hmmm yea my ko3 is bigger than that... psshhhh =)

[mtbrider]

Dougy I put 10mm studs on my set-up as well.

[Capt. Obvious]

That manifold is a piece of art. [eek] [up]

[dirtybrd]

Sweet!

[Toast]

verrrry nice

[A4natomical]

That manifold is a piece of art. [eek] [up]

love it.

[RLB6]

'bout time!!!!!!! [hail]

[400HPA4]

Was the flywheel and clutch not balanced with the rest of the rotating assembly?

[dirtybrd]

Uh oh!

[400HPA4]

Yup!

[CO AVANT]

I sent Bob my clutch and flywheel with the engine. I do not think he balanced both with the crank. He did get the crank balanced again. I would think the clutch and fly should be balanced properly when new? I know you do not need to balance a snowmobile clutch with the crank...what's different with the audi setup?

[dirtybrd]

It's just to put everything in harmony.

[CO AVANT]

So it's just to make sure the crank and flywheel are rotating correctly no? I do not understand why both wouldn't be if the fly was produced with a .001" tolerance and the crank was balanced by a pro shop before installing into the block?

[dirtybrd]

It just makes it perfectly balanced together.

[400HPA4]

So it's just to make sure the crank and flywheel are rotating correctly no? I do not understand why both wouldn't be if the fly was produced with a .001" tolerance and the crank was balanced by a pro shop before installing into the block?

When balancing the rotating assembly it is best to put the flywheel, clutch and harmonic balancer onto the the crankshaft, torque them to spec and spin the assembly to make sure thay are in perfect balance, then you weigh the rods and pistons too, making sure they are all balanced together.

Each of these measurements should be documented on your build sheet. Just think about what happens when you mount a tire onto a wheel and do not balance it, your car vibrates like crazy, your motor will do the same thing.

The only reason I asked it that it looks as if Bob returned your engine without the flywheel installed.

Good engine builders also would never give you back a motor without a new pilot shaft bearing that was properly lubricated.

[CO AVANT]

you are correct, my flywheel was not installed upon the return of my engine. I'm going to email him and ask for a build sheet. I'll send it to you so you can take a look at it. If audi/vw engines are internally balanced I don't see why the clutch/fly would matter. You can get both those pieces "nuetrally" balanced but that's about it. That's why I think it was okay to just throw it on with how close aftermarket tolerances are now a days...

and yes there was a new pilot bearing installed now that I actually looked at it. I just assumed that it wouldn't have been for some reason. Guess that'll save me some $$$ at the parts dept this week. Thanks for the heads up Greg.

[xphilx]

damn man. looks awesome[up]

[317ssayzarc]

with an internally balenced engine the crank pulley and flywheel need to be zero balenced...

and my apr mani was about a 10mm but have some funky thread on it, really fine and not every close to standard metric iirc...

[Sleepy 1]

wow, more pics!

[CO AVANT]

Please read this thread on engine balancing (Internal vs. External)
http://www.rpmmachine.com/engine-balancing.shtml

[317ssayzarc]

Haha thats too funny, thats a ripped off version of what my teacher had us read for my engines class... Heres that document...

Engine Balancing
by Larry Carley c2003

Engine Balance goes hand-in-hand with performance engine building. Engine Balancing reduces internal loads and vibrations that stress metal and may eventually lead to component failure. But is it worth the time and effort for mild performance applications, everyday passenger car engines or low-buck rebuilds?
From a technical point of view, every engine regardless of the application or its selling price can benefit from balancing. A smoother-running engine is also a more powerful engine. Less energy is wasted by the crank as it thrashes about in its bearings, which translates into a little more usable power at the flywheel. Reducing engine vibration also reduces stress on motor mounts and external accessories, and in big over-the-road trucks, the noise and vibration the driver has to endure mile after mile.
Though all engines are balanced from the factory (some to a better degree than others), the original balance is lost when the pistons, connecting rods or crankshaft are replaced or interchanged with those from other engines. The factory balance job is based on the reciprocating weight of the OE pistons and rods. If any replacements or substitutions are made, there is no guarantee the new or reconditioned parts will match the weights of the original parts closely enough to retain the original balance. Most aftermarket replacement parts are "balanced" to the average weight of the OEM parts, which may or may not be close enough to maintain a reasonable degree of balance inside the engine. Aftermarket crank kits are even worse and can vary considerably because of variations within engine families.
If the cylinders are worn and a block needs to be bored to oversize, the larger replacement pistons may be heavier than the original ones. Some piston manufacturers take such differences into account when engineering replacement pistons and try to match "average" OE weights. But others do not. Most high performance pistons are designed to be lighter than the OE pistons to reduce reciprocating weight for faster acceleration and higher rpm. Consequently, when pistons and rods are replaced there is no way of knowing if balance is still within acceptable limits unless you check it.
If you are building a stock engine for a passenger car or light truck that will spend most of its life loafing along at low rpm, your customer might question the value of balancing such an engine. But if a customer values durability and smooth operation, selling them a balance job shouldn't be too difficult, and it will add some extra profit, too.
On the other hand, if you are building a performance motor, a stroker motor or an engine that is expected to turn a lot of rpms or run a lot of miles, balancing is an absolute must. No engine is going to survive long at high rpms if it is out of balance. And no engine is going to last in a high mileage application if the crank is bending and flexing because of static or dynamic imbalances.
Theory of Engine Balance
To better understand the mechanics of balancing, lets look at the theory behind it. As everybody knows, a rotating object generates "centripetal force." Centripetal force is an actual force or load generated perpendicular to the direction of rotation. Tie a rope to a brick and twirl it around and you will feel the pull of centripetal force generated by the "unbalanced" weight of the brick. The faster you spin it, the harder it pulls. In fact, the magnitude of the force increases exponentially with speed. Double the speed and you quadruple the force.
The centripetal force created by a crankshaft balance problem will depend upon the amount of imbalance and distance from the axis of rotation (which is expressed in units of grams, ounces or ounce-inches). A crankshaft with only two ounce-inches of imbalance at 2,000 rpm will be subjected to a force of 14.2 lbs. At 4,000 rpm, the force grows to 56.8 lbs.! Double the speed again to 8,000 rpm and the force becomes 227.2 lbs.
This may not sound like much when you consider the torque loads placed upon the crankshaft by the forces of combustion. But centripetal imbalance is not torque twisting the crank. It is a sideways deflection force that tries to bend the crank with every revolution. Depending on the magnitude of the force, the back and forth flexing can eventually pound out the main bearings or induce stress cracks that can cause the crank to snap.
Centripetal force should not be confused with "centrifugal" force, which is the tendency of an object to continue in a straight trajectory when released while rotating. Let go of the rope while you are twirling the brick and the brick will fly off in a straight line (we do not recommend trying this because its difficult to control the trajectory of the brick).
Back to centripetal force. As long as the amount of centripetal force is offset by an equal force in the opposite direction, an object will rotate with no vibration. Tie a brick on each end of a yardstick and you can twirl it like a baton because the weight of one brick balances the other. If we are talking about a flywheel, the flywheel will spin without wobbling as long as the weight is evenly distributed about the circumference. A heavy spot at any one point, however, will create a vibration because there is no offsetting weight to balance out the centripetal force.
This brings us to another law of physics. Every object wants to rotate about its own center of gravity. Toss a chunk of irregular shaped metal into the air while giving it a spin and it will automatically rotate about its exact center of gravity. If the chunk of metal happens to be a flywheel, the center of gravity should be the the flywheels axis. As long as the center of gravity for the flywheel and the center of rotation on the crankshaft coincide, the flywheel will spin without vibrating.
But if there is a heavy spot on the flywheel, or if the flywheel is not mounted dead center on the crank, the center of gravity and axis of rotation will be misaligned and the resulting imbalance will create a vibration.
Crankshaft Balance
Okay, so how does all this scientific mumbo jumbo translate into the real world dynamics of a spinning crankshaft? A crankshaft, like a flywheel, is a heavy rotating object. Whets more, it also has a bunch of piston and rod assemblies reciprocating back and forth along its axis that greatly complicate the problem of keeping everything in balance.
With inline four and six cylinder engines, and flat horizontally opposed fours and sixes (like Porsche and Subaru), all pistons move back and forth in the same plane and are typically phased 180 degrees apart so crankshaft counterweights are not needed to balance the reciprocating components. Balance can be achieved by carefully weighing all the pistons, rods, wrist pins, rings and bearings, then equalizing them to the lightest weight.
On V6, V8, V10 and V12 engines, it is a different story because the pistons are moving in different planes. This requires crankshaft counterweights to offset the reciprocating weight of the pistons, rings, wrist pins and upper half of the connecting rods.
With "internally balanced" engines, the counterweights themselves handle the job of offsetting the reciprocating mass of the pistons and rods. "Externally balanced" engines, on the other hand, have additional counterweights on the flywheel and/or harmonic damper to assist the crankshaft in maintaining balance. Some engines have to be externally balanced because there is not enough clearance inside the crankcase to handle counterweights of sufficient size to balance the engine. This is true of engines with longer strokes and/or large displacements.
When rebuilding an engine that is internally balanced, the flywheel and damper have no effect on engine balance and can be balanced separately. But with externally balanced engines, the flywheel and damper must be mounted on the crank prior to balancing.
Customers should be told what type of engine balance they have (internal or external), and warned about indexing the position of the flywheel if they have to remove it later for resurfacing. Owners of externally balanced engines should also be warned about installing different flywheels or harmonic dampers and how it can upset engine balance.
Balance Shafts
In recent years, the auto makers have added balance shafts to many four and six cylinder engines to help cancel out crankshaft harmonics. The counter-rotating balance shaft helps offset vibrations in the crank created by the firing sequence of the engine.
On these motors, make sure the engine balance shaft is correctly "phased" or timed to the rotation of the crank. If the shaft is out of sync, it will amplify rather than diminish engine vibrations.
Balance shafts are not a substitute for normal engine balancing, nor do they reduce the vibration and stress the crankshaft itself experiences as it turns.
The Process of Engine Balancing
The process of balancing begins by equalizing the reciprocating mass in each of the engines cylinders. This is done by weighing each piston on a sensitive digital scale to determine the lightest one in a set. The other pistons are then lightened to match that weight by milling or grinding metal off a non-stressed area such as the wrist pin boss. The degree of precision to which the pistons are balanced will vary from one engine builder to another, and depends to some extent on the application. But generally speaking pistons are balanced to within plus or minus 0.5 grams of one another.
Next the rods are weighed, but only one end at a time. A special support is used so that the big ends of all the rods can be weighed and compared, then the little ends. As with the pistons, weights are equalized by grinding away metal to within 0.5 grams. It is important to note that the direction of grinding is important. Rods should always be ground in a direction perpendicular to the crankshaft and wrist pin, never parallel. If the grinding scratches are parallel to the crank, they may concentrate stress causing hairline cracks to form.
On V6 and V8 engines, the 60 or 90 degree angle between the cylinder banks requires the use of "bobweights" on the rod journals to simulate the reciprocating mass of the piston and rod assemblies. Inline four and six cylinder crankshafts do not require bobweights. To determine the correct weight for the bobweights, the full weight of a pair of rod bearings and the big end of the connecting rod, plus half the weight of the little end of the rod, piston, rings, wrist pin (and locks if full floating) plus a little oil are added together (100 percent of the rotating weight plus 50 percent of the reciprocating weight). The correct bobweights are then assembled and mounted on the crankshaft rod journals.
The crankshaft is then placed on the engine balancer and spun to determine the points where metal needs to be added or removed. The balancer indexes the crank and shows the exact position and weight to be added or subtracted. The electronic brain inside the balancer head does the calculations and displays the results. The latest machines have graphical displays that make it easy to see exactly where the corrections are needed.
If the crankshaft is heavy, metal is removed by drilling or grinding the counterweights. Drilling is usually the preferred means of lightening counterweights, and a balancer that allows the crank to be drilled while still on the machine can be a real time saver.
If the crankshaft is too light, which is usually the case on engines with stroker cranks or those that are being converted from externally balanced to internally balanced, heavy metal (a tungsten alloy that is 1.5 times as heavy as lead) is added to the counterweights. This is usually done by drilling the counterweights, and then press fitting and welding the heavy metal plugs in place. An alternate technique is to tap the hole and thread a plug into place. Drilling the holes sideways through the counterweights parallel to the crank rather than perpendicular to the crankshaft is a technique many prefer because it prevents the metal from being flung out at high rpm.
After drilling, the crankshaft is again spun on the balancer to determine if additional corrections are required. If the crankshaft is for an externally balanced engine (such as a big block Chevy), the balancing will be done with the flywheel and damper installed. On internally balanced engines, the flywheel and damper can be balanced separately, or installed on the crank and balanced as an assembly once the crank itself has been balanced.
New machinery has been introduced that both simplifies the balancing process and increases the accuracy of the job. Electronic equipment that allows accurate measurement of not only the amount of unbalance force, but also accurately reports the unbalanced vector position is now available to engine rebuilders. Typically, engine balancing machines have assumed that the unbalance force was equally opposed, so they would require the technician to correct the excessive amounts of unbalance on the excess side to the point of making them equal. Technicians have had to stair-step the corrections equally until the final tolerance was attained.
Technology such as that in the Multi-Bal 3000 HMV eliminates this requirement, according to Randy Neal of Cast Welding Technologies. Software and hardware are combined to allow radical differences to be reported at each end of the crankshaft (including any rotational positioning or vector position of the unbalanced force). Because the position and unbalance amounts are reported correctly the technician can make changes to the crankshaft with confidence that he will not over shoot the correction. In most cases the required cycles of analysis and correction are reduced by 80 to 90 percent, according to Neal.
The unbalance amount and position are imported into a special computer program called "Heavy Metal Analysis" (HMA). This program allows the technician to plot the position and amount of material that will be required to correct the crankshaft. The program lets rebuilders create multiple scenarios based on rotation and radius position, weight amounts and sizes of Mallory, all of which can be simulated without having to cut the first chip.
How Long To Balance Engine?
How long does it take to actually balance an engine? A typical Chevy small block V8 might take anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour-and-a-half depending on how much work is needed and the degree of accuracy you are trying to achieve. You are obviously going to spend more time on a motor that is going into a NASCAR Winston Cup racer than one that is going into Grandmas grocery getter.
Though a balancing accuracy of plus or minus one gram is typically good enough for most production street engines, many balancers today can achieve balancing accuracies in the tenths or even hundredths of a gram!
The most time-consuming part of the job is weighing and matching the pistons and rods. A four cylinder engine takes half as much time for this step as a V8. The next most time consuming part is making up the bobweights for a V6 or V8. This step is not needed with a straight six or four. The actual setup on the machine takes only a few minutes, and the initial spin and readings take only a couple of minutes more. The time required to perform the necessary weight corrections will depend on the crank (weight removal goes much faster than adding weight). And if you have done your work carefully, the final spin will require no further corrections because the balance will be right on the mark.
Most shops charge $150 to $225 to balance a V8. If heavy metal is required, add $40 to $75 per slug. Some shops charge less to balance engines, but these tend to be shops that are trying to compete in the budget rebuild market, not the performance market.
The most profitable applications for balancing include small high revving engines such as those in motorcycles, boats and go-carts. Some shops get $100 or more to balance a single cylinder Briggs & Stratton engine, which requires a lot less time and effort than a V8.
Other profitable applications include balancing turbocharger impellers and blower rotors, flywheels/ driveshafts and even brake rotors and drums. Such jobs can be billed by the piece or by the hour.
Like any other piece of shop equipment, you can spend as much or as little as you can afford on a balancer. The higher end units will have more bells and whistles, and generally be equipped with a drill stand as part of the work station. The less expensive units will have fewer features and be "portable" so they can be mounted on an existing bench or mill platform.
An entry level balancer will require an initial investment of around $11,000 to $15,000, which may or may not include bobweights and stand. The electronics will be fairly basic and probably have a numeric display rather than a graphic display. If you want to add a drill, add another $4,000 to $5,000 to the cost of the basic unit.
For $17,000 to $28,000 you can step up to a fully equipped balancer that includes a color graphic display, upgraded computer electronics and a drill stand. The computer software on some of the high end units is Windows 98 based and gives you the ability to store and recall specifications and other technical information about specific crankshafts.
Though most balancers can handle a wide range of crankshaft sizes, some manufacturers have equipment that is designed for small engine applications or large diesel cranks. At the recent Performance Racing Industry Show in Indianapolis, IN, Hines introduced a new mini-balancer called the "Eliminator 10" which is specifically designed for small parts under 10 lbs. The balancer, which sells for $13,999, can balance turbo impellers and blower rotors to within 0.0001 ounce/inches accuracy.
How fast can a balancer pay for itself? The payback obviously depends on the volume of work you do and how much you charge. If you finance a $15,000 balancer over 5 years and the monthly payments are around $300, one-and-a-half jobs a month at $200 each would cover your payments.

[dougyfresh]

Jake, Did you balance your engine with the flywheel and crank pulley like Greg is suggesting?

There are obviously different levels of a balanced engine. The most extreme is a fully blue-printed and balanced engine which I don't think we are talking about here...?...


Reading Jordan's like this section stands out (see second paragraph):


Internal or External
With "internally balanced" engines, the counterweights themselves handle the job of offsetting the reciprocating mass of the pistons and rods. "Externally balanced" engines, on the other hand, have additional counterweights on the flywheel and/or harmonic damper to assist the crankshaft in maintaining balance. Some engines have to be externally balanced because there isn’t enough clearance inside the crankcase to handle counterweights of sufficient size to balance the engine. This is true of engines with longer strokes and/or large displacements.

If you’re rebuilding an engine that is internally balanced, the flywheel and damper have no effect on engine balance and can be balanced separately. But with externally balanced engines, the flywheel and damper must be mounted on the crank prior to balancing.

You should find out what type of engine balance you have (internal or external), and be cautious about indexing the position of the flywheel if you have to remove it later for resurfacing. Owners of externally balanced engines should also learn about installing different flywheels or harmonic dampers and how it can upset balance.

[317ssayzarc]

the motor was internally balenced to the highest degree possible and the crank pulley and flywheel were zero balenced...

it involved zero balencing the crank... making all the rods big and small ends all equal and overall weight equal... making sure all pistons and pins weigh the same, if you had a super accurate scale you could also do the rings i suppose lol...

my crank, flywheel and crank pulley were balenced to 1 gram... the rods and pistons were done to .1 gram... this is very well balenced for an engine, most builders would consider it overkill...

[400HPA4]

the motor was internally balenced to the highest degree possible and the crank pulley and flywheel were zero balenced...

it involved zero balencing the crank... making all the rods big and small ends all equal and overall weight equal... making sure all pistons and pins weigh the same, if you had a super accurate scale you could also do the rings i suppose lol...

my crank, flywheel and crank pulley were balanced to 1 gram... the rods and pistons were done to .1 gram... this is very well balenced for an engine, most builders would consider it overkill...

^^ This, is the correct way to balance a motor.

[317ssayzarc]

it took me some time lol, but it was well worth it... these little 4 cylinders are cake compared to some of the v8's ive built...

[400HPA4]

I used to build the motor for our Top Alcohol Dragster, 500 cubic inch BAE solid billet aluminum blocks.

Balancing the motor is the key to longevity, the term blueprinting only pertains to documenting every single step (weights, torque specifications, tolerances, etc.) you blueprint a motor so it can be built the exact same way every single time.

We were so anal about our assembly process, that it was done indoors, in a clean room that was always 75 degrees in it.

All of those steps can only go so far though, I have had several blocks get blown clean in half when the driver will miss a shift (forget to turn on the air) and toss the crank out the bottom at 16,000 RPMs

[AudiA4_20T]

idk Ive heard its not a huge deal... I did it anyway but unless your running crazy amount of power I wouldnt think it would matter too much.

Greg your talking about dragsters that put out 1000s of hp

[317ssayzarc]

nice! the two baddest things i built were nothing near that nasty lol... 455 olds .030" over with aluminum heads and some other goodies, its quick but no dynos [:(]... and a 5.0 stroked to 347 and blown, a bit over 600whp to mid 600whp depending on the day [:D]

im trying to find a climate controlled smallish area to do all my engine building, i also want to get a dedicated torque wrench for engine building... all in due time i suppose...

[400HPA4]

idk Ive heard its not a huge deal... I did it anyway but unless your running crazy amount of power I wouldnt think it would matter too much.

Greg your talking about dragsters that put out 1000s of hp

FWIW, this is how our OEM motors are built, so I guess it may not be that big of a deal. [rolleyes]


I do not want to throw any salt onto any wounds but Jordan was the VICTIM of two engine failures aleady, the first was the camshafts and the second was the motor letting go with hardly any miles on it.

Jordan works his ass of and has dedicated a ton of hours to his car, why should he accept anything substandard?

[317ssayzarc]

(blank) works his ass of and has dedicated a ton of hours to his car, why should he accept anything substandard?

(fill in the blank with the customers name)

Thats how I look at it for anyones motor [up]

[AudiA4_20T]

FWIW, this is how our OEM motors are built, so I guess it may not be that big of a deal. [rolleyes]


I do not want to throw any salt onto any wounds but Jordan was the VICTIM of two engine failures aleady, the first was the camshafts and the second was the motor letting go with hardly any miles on it.

Jordan works his ass of and has dedicated a ton of hours to his car, why should he accept anything substandard?

yea this is true, it all falls into the "well if your building your motor, you might as well..." I could have spent another 2k easy if I wanted coated this and upgraded that, some stuff I really think is a gimmick, although I would think your right balancing is not. I balanced mine so I guess I shouldnt be defending the other side

[dirtybrd]

I do not want to throw any salt onto any wounds but Jordan was the VICTIM of two engine failures aleady, the first was the camshafts and the second was the motor letting go with hardly any miles on it.

I was unaware of the first motor. Can you elaborate?

[CO AVANT]

Greg, I COMPLETELY agree with you and everything you said. Especially for what I paid for this build and seeing that I actually sent Bob my flywheel and clutch with the engine originally. I an anal as hell and am a perfectionist to boot. Obviously every little bit helps and if it was worthwild at this point I would send my engine to someone who can zero/nuetral balance the crank at the fly. Takes a lot of extra work to get it to a shop and stripped back down at this point. I do not want to crate it again either. The crank was balanced again before install BTW. Since this is an internally balanced engine and not externally balanced and since the fly and clutch are built to tolerances more in spec than audi acutally produces, I think I'm going to just go ahead with the install. Do you think the hundreds or thousands of DM fly's replaced on audi's/vw's each year get an engine to fly balance before they get slapped in by the dealer mechanics? No, and I know that for a fact. I do appreciate you looking out for my best interests as I would do the same for you or any other member, especially if someone went through the same shit I had to go through this past year. I got the fly and clutch installed just a few minutes ago, both were an extremely tight fit as it should be for what it's worth... [wrench]

If it fails again, you can tell me I told you so [;)] Lets hope I actually have some luck finally. Especially since one of my snowmobile cranks seized last weekend. My luck with engines is not very good this past year lol... [headbang]

[winston@podi.ca]

My luck with engines is not very good this past year

I for some reason have membership #2 in this exclusive BAT RE-build club

[400HPA4]

Greg, I COMPLETELY agree with you and everything you said. Especially for what I paid for this build and seeing that I actually sent Bob my flywheel and clutch with the engine originally. I an anal as hell and am a perfectionist to boot. Obviously every little bit helps and if it was worthwild at this point I would send my engine to someone who can zero/nuetral balance the crank at the fly. Takes a lot of extra work to get it to a shop and stripped back down at this point. I do not want to crate it again either. The crank was balanced again before install BTW. Since this is an internally balanced engine and not externally balanced and since the fly and clutch are built to tolerances more in spec than audi acutally produces, I think I'm going to just go ahead with the install. Do you think the hundreds or thousands of DM fly's replaced on audi's/vw's each year get an engine to fly balance before they get slapped in by the dealer mechanics? No, and I know that for a fact. I do appreciate you looking out for my best interests as I would do the same for you or any other member, especially if someone went through the same shit I had to go through this past year. I got the fly and clutch installed just a few minutes ago, both were an extremely tight fit as it should be for what it's worth... [wrench]

If it fails again, you can tell me I told you so [;)] Lets hope I actually have some luck finally. Especially since one of my snowmobile cranks seized last weekend. My luck with engines is not very good this past year lol... [headbang]

The only reason I mnetioned it was that David told me you are one of the nicest guys he has met and that you work your ass off for the family business.

I felt pretty bad for you when everything started to go wrong.

[dougyfresh]

I'm going to have to call Bob about my engine. He doesn't have my flywheel...

[A4ringedONE8T]

I for some reason have membership #2 in this exclusive BAT RE-build club

I think everyone in the B6 BAT club has had to rebuild/replace something ... except me [eek] Basic setup FTW! [:)]

[dirtybrd]

When you only make 280WHP what could break?[:p]

[CO AVANT]

I'm going to have to call Bob about my engine. He doesn't have my flywheel...

He is going to tell you the same thing he told me. Let me know what he says regardless. BTW, that damn release bearing (throw-out) was $71 at the stealership yesterday [>_>]

[mike-2ptzero]

I for some reason have membership #2 in this exclusive BAT RE-build club

Both of you are behind me, my first engine came apart because it was not completely balanced while making 500+whp and pushing 8k+ rpms. So I guess I my member #'s should read 1 and 1[>_<]

[20vturbo]

Got some stuff done and bolted up to the engine yesterday. Just got my sprung clutch disc in yesterday too, then realized I didn't have new pilot and release bearings lol. Hopefully audi gets them in later this week so I can drop the engine back on the tranny this weekend. Still need to replace the timing belt too (damaged during shipping).

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb103/coavant/IMG_0736.jpg?t=1209486814

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb103/coavant/IMG_0737.jpg?t=1209486878

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb103/coavant/IMG_0738.jpg?t=1209486901

be careful with those manifold studs...They strip easy and you can only get them from apr..I waited like 3 weks for one, they say had to make them out of inconel because they stretch with the manifold..That's the reason for the rare thread to make them irepleaceble
What was the story with the cams in your engine????

[CO AVANT]

be careful with those manifold studs...They strip easy and you can only get them from apr..I waited like 3 weks for one, they say had to make them out of inconel because they stretch with the manifold..That's the reason for the rare thread to make them irepleaceble
What was the story with the cams in your engine????

I got the cat cams replaced under warranty. Bob deemed after many hours of measuring that the ring gear a the back of the cam was slightly off... I think the thermal coating and nord lock washers should help with the studs stripping, guess only time will tell. I did go back to softer motor mounts this time around, so the less vibration should help. Those last mounts I had were way too stiff.

[dougyfresh]

He is going to tell you the same thing he told me. Let me know what he says regardless. BTW, that damn release bearing (throw-out) was $71 at the stealership yesterday [>_>]

You mean the clutch throw-out bearing? Mine was new with my clutch so I'm going to reuse it. Its got 5,000miles on it.

I forgot to call Bob last night. I'll call tonight.

[CO AVANT]

Mine has only 1500 miles on it, guess I could have reused it....oh well. New is always nice. [:)]

[dougyfresh]

What year is your Avant? 2004?

[20vturbo]

I got the cat cams replaced under warranty. Bob deemed after many hours of measuring that the ring gear a the back of the cam was slightly off... I think the thermal coating and nord lock washers should help with the studs stripping, guess only time will tell. I did go back to softer motor mounts this time around, so the less vibration should help. Those last mounts I had were way too stiff.

one striped when I removed the nut other than that never had any problem with them..The apr is indeed a very nice manifold too bad we can't hook larger than gt28 on it

I have the 034 mounts and it's not that bad

[CO AVANT]

What year is your Avant? 2004?

03. Still have the 5spd [=(]

Yeah I got the 034 mounts too... (street density)

[dougyfresh]

03. Still have the 5spd [=(]

Okay. That's what I thought (non-02)

[whiteultra123]

damn! you've been busy!

[CO AVANT]

I thought you dropped off Mike, is your APR3+ still running good?

[whiteultra123]

ya its been a while huh, i got caught up with graduating and moving down to denver so it's been a while since i got on. You guys still doing drives up north? Ya, my car is still running hard, and believe it or not...still on that stock clutch!

What have you all done to yours now?

[CO AVANT]

I built the motor already well over a year ago and it failed on me last summer. Questionable rod bearing tolerances, the cams, and piston slap from too big of a bore first time around led to the premature failure. There is a long thread on audigeeks about it. Just got my new build done by someone much more competant. Gonna be installing it this weekend. There is just too much stuff to list that I've done to the motor but here are a few things that have changed since we've talked last:

Pauter forced pin oiling rods 20mm wrist pin
Supertech 83mm pistons (2008cc)
Eurospec knife edged forged crank
Ferrea valves with valve angle job
Cat head Springs
Cat 3651 Cams
Cat cam gear
All APR 3+ hardware
T25 GT2871R
550cc injectors
VR6 Maf
ER Comp FMIC
SB FE SS Clutch
Spec 16lb steel fly
Stasis center diff
034 motor mounts and tranny mount
Etc, etc, etc...

[317ssayzarc]

The apr is indeed a very nice manifold too bad we can't hook larger than gt28 on it

yes you can... you can get a more conventional 3071 in t25, its the 2871 housings but 30 series wheels... or you can go with the pricey t25 external wastegate hks housing and go at least up to a full 30r and possibly a 35r (no ones tried that large yet)...

i have the 3071r on my APR mani btw...

[CO AVANT]

Will have it all buttoned up and running by Wednesday. Must have somehow jacked the threads on my secondary O2 sensor. Might have been when I was working the block to seat on the trans. I cannot fix the threads enough to install it so I had to buy a new one. Won't be here until Wednesday. Would have been fixable if I had a die big enough to fit the O2 sensor threads. Oh well. Will be throwing on the front end tomorrow night, and then filling her up with fluids. That's all that's left now. [up] Since I worked on the car by myself most the time, I'd say I have taken around 12hrs total to get to this point (took my time an enjoyed it). Getting the trans and block to match up was the hardest part of this install. Definitely needed a hand on that one.

I did notice that this 2871R does not have a connection for the ebc at the compressor housing like my gtrs had. Where does one tap into for the other ebc line then? I had an extra nipple at the TIP and I currently ran the ebc line to that. The other ebc line is obviously going to the wastegate... any thoughts? I would assume that I wouldn't tap into the boost line going into the intake mani? I thought we run these ebc setups with an open loop and not closed loop setup?

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb103/coavant/IMG_0762.jpg?t=1209999207

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb103/coavant/IMG_0757.jpg?t=1209999247

[317ssayzarc]

wow, you are using the stock air box? thats so badass, my 4" MAF makes that basically impossible [:(]

[mike-2ptzero]

I did notice that this 2871R does not have a connection for the ebc at the compressor housing like my gtrs had. Where does one tap into for the other ebc line then? I had an extra nipple at the TIP and I currently ran the ebc line to that. The other ebc line is obviously going to the wastegate... any thoughts? I would assume that I wouldn't tap into the boost line going into the intake mani? I thought we run these ebc setups with an open loop and not closed loop setup?



If your turbo doesn't have a nipple for a pressure line to the EBC you need to put one on the IC pipe coming off the turbo, you cant run it off the TIP because that would just have a vacuum source. You could do it off the intake manifold but remember that it will also have vacuum and a pressure drop vs a direct pressure line right at the turbo.

[CO AVANT]

wow, you are using the stock air box? thats so badass, my 4" MAF makes that basically impossible [:(]

It took a hole saw and a lot of sanding/shaving just to get the 3" VR6 Maf in there. No way I could rig even the S4 maf in there.

Mike, thank you a ton. Looks like I will be tapping off the IC tubing. Closest to the turbo compressor outlet as I can get, I presume?

[dougyfresh]

Mine is tapped into the compressor housing itself. I can get you a photo tonight if you want.

[mike-2ptzero]

It took a hole saw and a lot of sanding/shaving just to get the 3" VR6 Maf in there. No way I could rig even the S4 maf in there.

Mike, thank you a ton. Looks like I will be tapping off the IC tubing. Closest to the turbo compressor outlet as I can get, I presume?


If you are going to tap a spot you can just pull the compressor housing off and do it on that since it is thicker then the IC pipe. If you do it on the IC pipe just have someone weld on a barbed nipple not too far from where the pipe connects to the turbo outlet.

[AudiA4_20T]

[down]









[:D]

[CO AVANT]

If you are going to tap a spot you can just pull the compressor housing off and do it on that since it is thicker then the IC pipe. If you do it on the IC pipe just have someone weld on a barbed nipple not too far from where the pipe connects to the turbo outlet.

Done. I do not want to take the compressor off at this point. I took a brass nipple that is threaded on the other end and tapped it into the ic piping right after the coupler connection coming out of the turbo. I used green high temp loctite and covered the connection on the outside with audi sealant. I do not think it will leak boost. If it does, I'll get it welded... thanks for the heads up Mike [up]

[winston@podi.ca]

I hope to get my wagon up and running this week with the new Supertech parts installed in the head.

I'd like to see what your wagon and mine can do once they get rolling again at 26psi. [:p]

[CO AVANT]

Nice Winston. Can't wait to hear how she roars! [up] [drive]

[martini]

for the nipple, I welded a bung on my FMIC pipe. You should try to keep this connection as close to the turbo as possible. I didn't feel comfortable tapping the turbo itself, so this was a good compromise

dont mind the poor weld job

http://www.a4mods.com/pics/turbo/IMG_0948.JPG

[dougyfresh]

Here's the connection on my 28RS

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3036/2435447498_6c6c854276.jpg

[CO AVANT]

That's the same fitting I used Martini. Closest to the turbo I could get. I need to do a pressure test to make sure it's sealed. If I had known I had to do this earlier in the project, I'd have obviously done this at the turbo compressor. Didn't even think about it lol...

Got the front end on last night. Just need the new rear O2 sensor to arrive before I fire it up.

[AudiA4_20T]

I believe Wednesday is tomorrow!

[CO AVANT]

Car is 99.99% done. Even got the front bumper and headlights in. She is all filled up with fluids. I could have started it last night if I had my new rear O2 sensor. Tracking shows it coming today via ups. If it does indeed show up today the car is getting started first thing after work. I'll take a vid. I almost shit my pants when I got the car all back together. I forgot how sexy it is [>_<] [drive]

[yoogene83]

giggity

[Redgoat]

cant wait!! Whats the status?? That 02 sensor show up??

[dirtybrd]

Yeah! He's probably screwing it in as we type.

[Issam@INA]

Modify the timing cover for the camgear :D

[dougyfresh]

IT RUNS!






I just called Jordan and he's out driving the AVant!!! [up][up][up][hail][hail][hail]

[dirtybrd]

Muahahahaha!

[Redgoat]

SWEET!!!! I cant wait to see pics and a video!!

[mtbrider]

very nice

[actlsub9]

Nice [up] congrats on getting it done.