K-MAC CAMBER BUSHINGS GB FOR B5/B6/B7 A4's and B6/B7 S4's (Sponsored by DTH)

[A4ringedONE8T]

Still working out details, but to make this GB Section friendly, this is being done through Greg (400HPA4) and DTH, Official AZ Advertisers!

PLEASE DIRECT ALL QUESTIONS AND PM'S TO ME AS GREG DOES NOT NEED TO BE FLOODED WITH ANY MORE HEADACHES

I dont have alot of details yet but working on getting something setup. These will adjust camber for the FRONT ONLY of the cars listed in the title to the thread. They WILL NOT be the CPP arms which are known for there creaks and strange noises while driving, and will also be less than half what the CPP arms go for!!!

If you are at all interested, please post up so I can see how many people we may be able to get!

Thanks, Shawn

[rxrep]

Possible. Need more info before I decide to max a credit card again.

[A4ringedONE8T]

Possible. Need more info before I decide to max a credit card again.

You got PM

[mtbrider]

i'm interested as well

[brlukosk]

Interested too.

[Capt. Obvious]

Sign me up! (B6)

[A4ringedONE8T]

Alright, guess it may get more interest than I was expecting, lets start a list and I will update this thread with the details as I get them. I should have more info tomorrow afternoon

Please add a number and your username to the list if your interested [up] If you know anyone else that is interested please let them know and send them this way!!!

Thanks, Shawn

1) A4ringedONE8T
2) Capt Obvious
3) Brlukosk
4) mtbrider
5) rxrep
6) Tomtom

[Spam-N-Rice ETR]

I'm interested but would like more info.

[A4ringedONE8T]

Ill post it here as soon as I have pricing, I dont want to post a link to the site, dont need a bunch of people calling them asking questions until I hear some more info back myself

[A4ringedONE8T]

UPDATE!

Heres a link to the site for K-Mac, who I am dealing with

http://www.k-mac.com.au/

These are not camber plates nor adjustable tie arms, rather adjustable control arm bushings more or less. I have not seen them in person but from my research they are very effective, very easy to change (for daily driving and then a quick change for a track day on the weekend) They do not make any of the squealing or strange noises that most people say accompany the CPP arms!

I am still awaiting prices but I will update you guys as soon as I get word!

Shawn

[A4ringedONE8T]

Updated

1) A4ringedONE8T
2) Capt Obvious
3) Brlukosk
4) mtbrider
5) rxrep
6) Tomtom
7) unknowna4
8) papachristou
9) aloha-boy
10) Tinman

** These are the people that have shown interest, this by no means says you are obliged to participate in the GB**

[brlukosk]

Oh, I thought camber plates...

Kmac bushings have been around for quite a while, a few people here run them..

[A4ringedONE8T]

Oh, I thought camber plates...

Kmac bushings have been around for quite a while, a few people here run them..

Who has them? Ive yet to see anyone with them. And sorry for the misinfo if it was, Im not too familar with the product yet either as I only know what Ive read

[brlukosk]

No problem man. I just saw B5 and camber plates and got all excited.

I know a few people have them between here and audiworld. Onemoremile had them but didnt bother installing them. There is a thread around here that explains some of the pros and cons of the setup.

I would probably still be intersted in a group buy. They are around $200 retail, so a GB would make them even more desireable...

[Papachristou]

i just want my tires to stop wearing on the inside [=(]

[A4ringedONE8T]

Alright just heard back on pricing

First off, Brlukosk, not sure where you think $200 bucks is retail [confused]

Anyways, heres the details

Retail is $320 + shipping (from Australia, NOT CHEAP!!) for a front kit for the models specified, if we get 10 people definitely in, the prices are as follows:

$260 + 15 Shipping

I will take everyones payment, then pay for everything all at once to prevent any screwups or mishaps, plus its oversees long distance, Im sure none of you want to call over there for payment! So I will take everyone's payment as soon as I have 10 people that say "Yes Im In", as soon as I have all 10 payments, I will pay for the batch. They will be shipped out and to me within a week of payment. Once I receive them, I will ship them out to each of you personally! Should take NO MORE than 2 weeks from payment to me until they are at your door!

I will include tracking numbers and all the usual as expected!

Plese let me know who all is interested so we can either go forward with who we have listed or I can continue to fish for 10!

Thanks, Shawn

[brlukosk]

AFAIK Depending on your camber specs, camber alone shouldnt wear the tires that much.

A combination of -1.5 camber and excessive toe will destroy or
"scrub" the tires fast.

If your toe is conservative the camber alone wont set you back too much.

[brlukosk]

Alright just heard back on pricing

First off, Brlukosk, not sure where you think $200 bucks is retail [confused]


I dont know either.. [:o]

Edit: Wait a sec. Here is a quote from the thread a while back..


You can order these through Shox.com for around $219 plus shipping. They need to be pressed into the front upper control arms. If your control arms have been replaced, you need to make sure that the bushings are the same diameter as stock or the camber bushings may not fit. I have a set pressed in to control arms that have about 5 months of use that I may be interested in selling. I'm thinking of going to adjustable control arms. PM me if you are interested in these. I will sell them for a lot less than new control arms and bushings cost and they are already installed. I can also send along the original bushings that were pressed out with 0 miles on them. The KMAC bushings work well but they are a little difficult to change easily due to where they are located. I can dial in or out 3 degrees of camber with these.

Here is another quote:


I paid $150 for mine, out the door....[up]

What does shox.com sell them for?

[A4ringedONE8T]

You can order these through Shox.com for around $219 plus shipping. They need to be pressed into the front upper control arms. If your control arms have been replaced, you need to make sure that the bushings are the same diameter as stock or the camber bushings may not fit. I have a set pressed in to control arms that have about 5 months of use that I may be interested in selling. I'm thinking of going to adjustable control arms. PM me if you are interested in these. I will sell them for a lot less than new control arms and bushings cost and they are already installed. I can also send along the original bushings that were pressed out with 0 miles on them. The KMAC bushings work well but they are a little difficult to change easily due to where they are located. I can dial in or out 3 degrees of camber with these.

Hmmm, kinda hard to find them on there but I guess your right, WTH. Let me talk to K-Mac again and see whats the deal

[brlukosk]

Maybe the price has increased?

Either way I guess its good to know.

[AudiSport44]

They are $239 on Shox.com as of today. I have them and they are not that difficult to adjust. Only thing is, you have to lift the car while on the alignment rack (the rack has that as a built in feature) so you can reach those inner bolts for the upper arms where the adjustment takes place. So you lift the car, adjust, lower it down, take the reading and repeat the same process until you are satisfied with the numbers. You will need a press in order to install these in your arms. A good vice might do the job but that's not what I used.

[Tifosi]

I have had these on my car (B5-S4), and can honestly say that I came away unimpressed with them. I know they are very popular and works well with VWs (TT & 3 series)but not so much on Audis with 4-link suspensions (4/6/8 series). They are difficult to adjust (Unless you have access to a lift), especially if your car is lowered (Not by me, but even by an experienced technician/tunner who is very familiar with them), and from what I understand, they are not re-usable thus IMHO, you are better off to just replace the CAs if they are due, because they can wear from both ends or you will need to put them into a pair of brand new CAs, which does not make them cost effective at all.

I must say that I am truly sorry to be making this post on a GB thread, but I learned my lesson the hard way and I hate to see other fellow Audi owners to make what I think is a mistake.

[400HPA4]

AFAIK Depending on your camber specs, camber alone shouldnt wear the tires that much.

A combination of -1.5 camber and excessive toe will destroy or
"scrub" the tires fast.

If your toe is conservative the camber alone wont set you back too much.

Every inch you lower you B6A4 you gain .7 degrees of negative camber, this really improves understeer, however it kills your tires, most of us are lowered 2" which puts us at 1.4 degrees of negative camber.

In the last 12 months I have spent $1135 on front tires (had to replace twice). The call is yours wheter you need these or not (take off you tire and look at the inner wear).

[AudiSport44]

I have had these on my car (B5-S4), and can honestly say that I came away unimpressed with them. I know they are very popular and works well with VWs (TT & 3 series)but not so much on Audis with 4-link suspensions (4/6/8 series). They are difficult to adjust (Unless you have access to a lift), especially if your car is lowered (Not by me, but even by an experienced technician/tunner who is very familiar with them), and from what I understand, they are not re-usable thus IMHO, you are better off to just replace the CAs if they are due, because they can wear from both ends or you will need to put them into a pair of brand new CAs, which does not make them cost effective at all.

I must say that I am truly sorry to be making this post on a GB thread, but I learned my lesson the hard way and I hate to see other fellow Audi owners to make what I think is a mistake.


Ok, a few points here...

When you do alignment on a car, it is done on an "aligment rack". Not in your garage or on a random lift. Lifting the car does not become an issue because as I previously mentioned, alignment racks have the lifting feature built in. As a matter of fact you can raise the front or rear individually. The only problem is that you can't adjust these arms while the car is resting, especially with a lowered suspension(hence the need for these).

Now I don't know if you can only use these once, that I can't comment on, but I did the whole procedure myself and your descrition is pretty far off. How else would you do alignment on a car if not on a rack?

[Papachristou]

do they not have camber plates?

[AudiSport44]

The chassis design doesn't allow for it. Strut towers aren't exposed on the newer Audis, as they are on the older models.

[Tifosi]

Ok, a few points here...

When you do alignment on a car, it is done on an "aligment rack". Not in your garage or on a random lift. Lifting the car does not become an issue because as I previously mentioned, alignment racks have the lifting feature built in. As a matter of fact you can raise the front or rear individually. The only problem is that you can't adjust these arms while the car is resting, especially with a lowered suspension(hence the need for these).

Now I don't know if you can only use these once, that I can't comment on, but I did the whole procedure myself and your descrition is pretty far off. How else would you do alignment on a car if not on a rack?

I have seen at least two different types of "aligment racks". One with a build-in lift and another with 4 individual resting platforms/tables seprate from the lift.

While it is true that "all you have to do is lift, adjust, drop, read and repeat" until you are happy with the numbers, the actual process is not as easy as one would think. If you are paying a shop by hours, you just may be in for a surprise at the end of the day. Keep in mind that you are dealing with TWO CAs on each side, and to obtain the desired camber, the two has to match. If not, you will have a toe issue to deal with. Plus, you are also turning the bushing/CAs with the wheels and tires on, which IMHO, is really not an easy task. The K-Mac kit is nothing but an off-center bolt with marking teeth that rotates, which IMHO, is not that precise and the effectiveness of this kit can largely depend on the person that is installing and adjusting them (Even know that they do come with markings on them for installation). Again, IMHO, it is too much work unless one is heavily into tracking the car. If all you want is to maximize tire wear, a good aligment done by someone that really knows what they are doing will do the trick, as long as you are not lowered too much (~2"). Against contrary belief, the camber on these 4-link suspension IS "adjustable" to a certain extend for the purpose of normal street use. If you are that much into tracking or the car is lowered by that much, IMHO, you are better off to just go with the CPP arms instead of this K-Mac kit.

Answer me this: This K-Mac kit has been out for awhile, and if it is so great, why has it not caught on with the Audi owners after all these time?

Also, call any of the more reputable tuner shops/vendors (Matrix, AWE, APR, PureMS & Vast etc. and ask them about this kit and see what they think.

[A4ringedONE8T]

The CPP arms are known to make squeaks, vibrations, and all sorts of strange noises during normal driving. I think I speak for most people in that no one wants to deal with that unless like you said, your doing this STRICTLY for tracking!

[CyberPMG]

My understanding with the CPP adjustable arms is that most of the squeaks, vibrations, etc. are from the the ones with the regular steel ends and not the ones with the stainless steel ends. Can someone confirm this?

[400HPA4]

I have seen at least two different types of "aligment racks". One with a build-in lift and another with 4 individual resting platforms/tables seprate from the lift.

While it is true that "all you have to do is lift, adjust, drop, read and repeat" until you are happy with the numbers, the actual process is not as easy as one would think. If you are paying a shop by hours, you just may be in for a surprise at the end of the day. Keep in mind that you are dealing with TWO CAs on each side, and to obtain the desired camber, the two has to match. If not, you will have a toe issue to deal with. Plus, you are also turning the bushing/CAs with the wheels and tires on, which IMHO, is really not an easy task. The K-Mac kit is nothing but an off-center bolt with marking teeth that rotates, which IMHO, is not that precise and the effectiveness of this kit can largely depend on the person that is installing and adjusting them (Even know that they do come with markings on them for installation). Again, IMHO, it is too much work unless one is heavily into tracking the car. If all you want is to maximize tire wear, a good aligment done by someone that really knows what they are doing will do the trick, as long as you are not lowered too much (~2"). Against contrary belief, the camber on these 4-link suspension IS "adjustable" to a certain extend for the purpose of normal street use. If you are that much into tracking or the car is lowered by that much, IMHO, you are better off to just go with the CPP arms instead of this K-Mac kit.

Answer me this: This K-Mac kit has been out for awhile, and if it is so great, why has it not caught on with the Audi owners after all these time?

Also, call any of the more reputable tuner shops/vendors (Matrix, AWE, APR, PureMS & Vast etc. and ask them about this kit and see what they think.

You do realize you are missing the entire point of this product, it is not to add additional camber but to correct the tire wear issues that pretty much every single member on this board experiences.

There are ZERO adjustments for camber correction on the 4 link front suspension if any alignment shop tells you they can correct it, trust me it would be temporary as all they are doing is moving bolts.

Yes, whoever uses this product must be a skilled alignment technician, just as with the CPP arms.

[Tifosi]

You do realize you are missing the entire point of this product, it is not to add additional camber but to correct the tire wear issues that pretty much every single member on this board experiences.

There are ZERO adjustments for camber correction on the 4 link front suspension if any alignment shop tells you they can correct it, trust me it would be temporary as all they are doing is moving bolts.

Yes, whoever uses this product must be a skilled alignment technician, just as with the CPP arms.

I am fully aware of what the K-Mac kit is "SUPPOSE" to do, thank you. The idea is about adjusting the camber angle and depending on how you view and define it, you are trying to adding more POSITIVE camber angle to your suspension and dial out the excessive NEGATIVE camber that one will have with a lowered vehicle.

While it is true that you can not adjust camber angle individually with the 4-link suspension, you can however, even them out as much as possible by shifting the engine cradle (See http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17622). If you add routine tire rotation (5K miles) and the car is lowered within reason, interior tire wear issue that commonly plaques a dropped car can be minimized.

I had the K-Mac kit on my car, and IMO, they are not worth the time, money and trouble.

[400HPA4]

Audi recommends replacing the stretch bolts that hold the engine cradle in place once they have been loosened. Shifting the engine cradle is much more difficult than adjusting K-mac bushings...you would also need to lift the car to release the pressure to shift the engine cradle.

I do realize that you have a beef with the K-mac product and it is not for YOU, however it is perfect for many vehicles.

As far as tire rotation goes, it is not entirely feasible on all Audi' as many of us have directional tires that are also non-assymetrical (there is defined outside edge).

What the K-mac bushings do is allow the alignment shop to very easily adjust the camber on the fron of our cars to bring it right back to OEM spoecifications.

I do not suggest these if you are planning on tracking your car as the bushings will most likely not handle the extreme angle change and shift associated with agressive alignment setups.

Also, if you have progressive rate springs up front (ala StaSIS/Konis) and many others, you get zero adjustability with the CPP arms as they will hit the springs.

K-mac bushings will not allow the arms to hit the springs even at 3 degrees of negative camber

[Tifosi]

Audi recommends replacing the stretch bolts that hold the engine cradle in place once they have been loosened. Shifting the engine cradle is much more difficult than adjusting K-mac bushings...you would also need to lift the car to release the pressure to shift the engine cradle.

I do realize that you have a beef with the K-mac product and it is not for YOU, however it is perfect for many vehicles.

As far as tire rotation goes, it is not entirely feasible on all Audi' as many of us have directional tires that are also non-assymetrical (there is defined outside edge).

What the K-mac bushings do is allow the alignment shop to very easily adjust the camber on the fron of our cars to bring it right back to OEM spoecifications.

I do not suggest these if you are planning on tracking your car as the bushings will most likely not handle the extreme angle change and shift associated with agressive alignment setups.

Also, if you have progressive rate springs up front (ala StaSIS/Konis) and many others, you get zero adjustability with the CPP arms as they will hit the springs.

K-mac bushings will not allow the arms to hit the springs even at 3 degrees of negative camber

*L* I have no beef against K-Mac, I simply think and from my personal experiences with them, that they are not ideal for the 4-link suspension systems. Again, just call around and ask other well known, reputable Audi tunners/vendors about their opinions on this product.

As for the tire rotation, unless you have staggered tires front and back, which is a no-no unless you are trying to kill your Quattro system prematurely, you can simply rotate them in the front-back pattern instead of CC, which will still allow more even tire wear as oppose to not rotating the tires at all.

[MikekiM]

I've never had good luck using them. They loosen up fairly quickly, and don't hold the alignment position very well. They're hard to use and adjust as well. And they only fit in genuine Audi control arms. I've had a few arms in, where the kmacs wouldn't fit correctly in the arm due to different sized bushings.

[AudiSport44]

I have seen at least two different types of "aligment racks". One with a build-in lift and another with 4 individual resting platforms/tables seprate from the lift.

While it is true that "all you have to do is lift, adjust, drop, read and repeat" until you are happy with the numbers, the actual process is not as easy as one would think. If you are paying a shop by hours, you just may be in for a surprise at the end of the day. Keep in mind that you are dealing with TWO CAs on each side, and to obtain the desired camber, the two has to match. If not, you will have a toe issue to deal with. Plus, you are also turning the bushing/CAs with the wheels and tires on, which IMHO, is really not an easy task. The K-Mac kit is nothing but an off-center bolt with marking teeth that rotates, which IMHO, is not that precise and the effectiveness of this kit can largely depend on the person that is installing and adjusting them (Even know that they do come with markings on them for installation). Again, IMHO, it is too much work unless one is heavily into tracking the car. If all you want is to maximize tire wear, a good aligment done by someone that really knows what they are doing will do the trick, as long as you are not lowered too much (~2"). Against contrary belief, the camber on these 4-link suspension IS "adjustable" to a certain extend for the purpose of normal street use. If you are that much into tracking or the car is lowered by that much, IMHO, you are better off to just go with the CPP arms instead of this K-Mac kit.

Answer me this: This K-Mac kit has been out for awhile, and if it is so great, why has it not caught on with the Audi owners after all these time?

Also, call any of the more reputable tuner shops/vendors (Matrix, AWE, APR, PureMS & Vast etc. and ask them about this kit and see what they think.



I never said the process was easy but it is not difficult either. Again, I did the whole install/alignment myself. Did you?

These bushings are meant to correct your alignment on a lowered car and they do just that. I drove around on them (for about a year until I sold the car) with 19" wheels tucking a bit under the fenders. I had no problems with them. As a matter of fact the car felt more precise due to the urethane bushings around the eccentric adjustment bolt which replaces the stock mushy rubber bushings.

If you alignment shop is going to sit there all day adjusting these things and charge you by the hour than they most likely aren't very well versed to begin with. As I said it before, you need to STOP scaring these people away from an effective product!

You CANNOT do ANY alignment on the front of these cars but even it out from side to side by moving the subframe. Do you consider THAT an easy, cost effective process? It won't even solve your problems either. And as far as rotation, the only thing you will do is ruin 4 tires instead of 2! With light lowering (1 inch or so) you shouldn't need these or the CPP arms but when you really drop you car, there is no choice. It's not about tracking the car.

When the car is lifted (while on the rack) you get plenty of gap between the wheel and fender to easily reach the adjustment bolts, again...you make it sound such awful of a process when it is not. When you adjust these you will have to compensate for your toe, which is also easily adjusted. Not a tough process either.

Answer me this: Why do you not see people flocking towards the CPP arms? Ridiculous $800 price tag maybe? You have to keep them lubricated constantly or they'll go bad on you. I can't comment on the new ones with boots because I don't know how effective they are at blocking out the elements but I heard way too many complaints regarding the older ones.

Answer me this also: Why would the shops sell a much cheaper alternative when a more expensive one exists with higher profit margin?

[passatkid]

I have heard there are issue with them not fitting in all controls arm brands, anyone else read this.

[AudiSport44]

Yes that is true. They can only be mounted in arms that have the OEM bushing diameter.

[400HPA4]

*L* I have no beef against K-Mac, I simply think and from my personal experiences with them, that they are not ideal for the 4-link suspension systems. Again, just call around and ask other well known, reputable Audi tunners/vendors about their opinions on this product.

As for the tire rotation, unless you have staggered tires front and back, which is a no-no unless you are trying to kill your Quattro system prematurely, you can simply rotate them in the front-back pattern instead of CC, which will still allow more even tire wear as oppose to not rotating the tires at all.

If you correct your camber it is a non-issue. Non-assymetrical tires cannot be rotated as they have a inner and outer on the wheel, you will always be subject to inner wear on non-bamber corrected cars.

No Audi's ever hold their alinment because the front and rear subframe shift if there is any stress put on them (hard driving).

[MikekiM]

No Audi's ever hold their alinment because the front and rear subframe shift if there is any stress put on them (hard driving).

I'd love to see some evidence of subframes moving just from driving. That sounds ridiculous.

[kblackwe]

I believe the stock rubber subframe bushings allow some amount of play when driving hard/tracking the car, which can lead to alignment changes (especially on a car with over 100k miles).

[Tifosi]

I never said the process was easy but it is not difficult either. Again, I did the whole install/alignment myself. Did you?
If you alignment shop is going to sit there all day adjusting these things and charge you by the hour than they most likely aren't very well versed to begin with. As I said it before, you need to STOP scaring these people away from an effective product!

And just how many people here do you think has the ability to do their own install & alignment here? I would think it is reasonable to assume that the majority of the members do not have such ability. Basically, we are at the mercy of the shop and believe me, they will charge you whatever their hourly rate is without any hesitation. I am not trying to scare people away from this product, I only wish that they are as great as you seem to think. IMO, it is a product that can mislead consumers into thinking that they will be able to dial out the negative camber of their cars with easy which is clearly not the case.


Answer me this: Why do you not see people flocking towards the CPP arms? Ridiculous $800 price tag maybe? You have to keep them lubricated constantly or they'll go bad on you. I can't comment on the new ones with boots because I don't know how effective they are at blocking out the elements but I heard way too many complaints regarding the older ones.

The cost to use these bushing is not as cheap as one may think. Let me help you break this down for: Can we at least both agree that CA arms can go bad on both ends? A CA has the bushing end on the inside and the boot end on the outside once they are installed on the car. We all know that CAs goes bad with time and usage, which means if your current CAs has some milage on them, there is a good chance that the boot end can puncture and leak grease soon. In other words, IMO, to save money on labor (Both install and alignment, because whenever the CAs are replaced, an alignment needs to be done), it may be wise to buy a brand new CAs instead of use the old ones. Here is the catch, you are stuck with buying OEM CAs in order to be relatively sure that these K-Mac bushings will fit properly. And we all know that OEM CAs are not exactly cheap to buy. So in the end you will have two choices: 1) Buy brand new OEM CAs to use with the K-Mac kit = $$$ or 2) Use the K-Mac kit in your existing OEM CAs now, and take your chances with the boot end. If they do puncture and leak, be ready to pay for at least: 1 new set of CAs, another installation charge, another alignment charge and another set of K-Macs since they are not re-usable from what I understand. Either way, it is $$$$ for anyone that are not able to work on their own cars like you do. Don't get me wrong here, I applaud people like you that has the ability, time and the knowledge to do so. But the reality is, you are in the minority here.


Answer me this also: Why would the shops sell a much cheaper alternative when a more expensive one exists with higher profit margin?

A good product is a good product. Profit margin of one individual item is relative, especially if it is done by volume. Hence, the existance of such events known as a group buy. If a vendor is not making a reasonable amount of profit, there is no way in hell that a GB will happen no matter how many people wants them. Bottom line is, if these K-Mac kits are really as great as you are telling us, any vendor is an idiot for not being the first to sell them, especially in this mob-mentality rich community such as here or on AW.

[DoGGRoBBer]

If the price is right, I'm down.

-Mike

[mervon]

You should talk to shox.com about the group buy the list price is $239!!! 10 or more should warrent some sort of discount lower than the 239 they list http://www.shox.com/appguide/shoxshop/productsdisplay.php

[AudiSport44]

I already mentioned them and their price. I have actually dealt with them before and I am sure they would work with you guys.

[mervon]

They gave me a quote of $209 for a set plus shipping form the west coast!!

[GTMRS4]

I'm in send me a PM once you have the details