250 Horsepower GIAC XR A4 -----

[J. Moss]

Hi All,

Many here seem very hostile about the 250 chp claim that I made in February to some AZ folks that I met at an event. To the point of some calling me a liar, a fool or just plain a scam. Having been in this business as long as I have my feeling is one of distaste for how this has been dealt with.

Let me clarify some things.

GIAC was able to get 250 ft/Lbs close to 240-250 chp for one run on a Beta RACE GAS program. The car was only able to make this number once due to a slipping clutch and further tuning was impossible.

GIAC will be working further on the race gas program in the very near future and will strongly suggest a stronger clutch with this upgrade.

It is not in my, nor GIAC's nature to claim a number unless it has been achieved repeatably. The comment was in passing to some AZ members and the football was run with at that point. I should have said this sooner, as it seems that many have used this “Claim” to discredit me and GIAC for whatever reasons.

When the file is done the results will be posted for all to see. The work is already beginning and when we have a repeatable solid file everyone will see the results.

All “Crank” numbers are just estimates that need to be taken with a grain of salt from anyone! Even the omnipotent Maha numbers as far as I am concerned.

THE MOST IMPORTANT MEASUREMENT IS HOW MUCH HAS BEEN GAINED FROM BASELINE.

I would appreciate an email or a phone call if you have anything negative to say about me. IMO that is the proper way to deal with a “problem.”
I have been in many contest/competitions/shootouts.... And will not be dragged into anything without a solid conversation first. If you want to see some of the published items I have been involved in and a timeline check out my web-site at Torque-Factory, Inc. (http://www.torque-factory.com) .

I will gladly respond to any questions that I can answer. If things start to get ugly I will untrack the thread you guys can just fight without me.

Jeff Moss

[EVIL-AUDI]

Let me start off by saying thank you for your post.

Also we are tired of seeing name calling and personal attacks on eachother. This is a forum. Stick to the facts and keep it clean.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by EVIL-AUDI
Let me start off by saying thank you for your post.

Also we are tired of seeing name calling and personal attacks on eachother. This is a forum. Stick to the facts and keep it clean.


You are very welcome fellow evil one.

The personal attacks got old long ago. Let's keep it clean and I will gladly participate.

Jeff

[Jeff]

Originally posted by EVIL-AUDI
Let me start off by saying thank you for your post.

Also we are tired of seeing name calling and personal attacks on eachother. This is a forum. Stick to the facts and keep it clean.

Exactly my point... i've always stuck with FACTS and not "shit out of my ass", but some people like to take it to a WHOLE other level.

But anyways, this "J. Moss" guy can SUCK IT! Oh yea... sorry..didnt know it was YOU Jeff Moss. [eek]

-Jeff

[1sicknickel]

This is gonna start to get ugly

[Villains]

Originally posted by J. Moss
You are very welcome fellow evil one.

The personal attacks got old long ago. Let's keep it clean and I will gladly participate.

Jeff

Jeff,

Once the file is complete and is satisfactory with GIAC, would you be willing to have it dyno'd on the MAHA with a few AZ'ers on site? We would all like to see what the file can do and we all hope that is does make 240 CHP. None of us want the products that are available for our cars to perform poorly. We all want the best for our cars. I have worked with you in the past and have referred people to you; so I ask this out of curiosity and to quiet down all of the claims from both sides and just have hard numbers and facts. I dislike all the hearsay and naysayers as much as you do.

Thanks,
Derrick

[BrokenXenon]

i am just happy with my GIAC 1.2BAR :P
and it's very very very reliable

[EVIL-AUDI]

Originally posted by nickel 1.8
This is gonna start to get ugly

Not if I can help it. [mad]

[fongaroos]

Originally posted by BrokenXenon
i am just happy with my GIAC 1.2BAR :P
and it's very very very reliable

is that just the standard GIAC chip?

if 1.2 bar is the standard chip... then what is the "S" or "X" chip running at?

i already feel like the standard chip/programming is already REALLY AGGRESSIVE and i try not to push my car too hard cuz i feel like im gonna break something...

the "S" and "X" must be pushing REALLY REALLY HARD on the engine...

[hyperspeed]

more on the turbo.. when did u get chipped eric?

[gotsportec]

y cant we all just get along???

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by J. Moss
Hi All,

Many here seem very hostile about the 250 chp claim that I made in February to some AZ folks that I met at an event. To the point of some calling me a liar, a fool or just plain a scam. Having been in this business as long as I have my feeling is one of distaste for how this has been dealt with.

Let me clarify some things.

GIAC was able to get 250 ft/Lbs close to 240-250 chp for one run on a Beta RACE GAS program. The car was only able to make this number once due to a slipping clutch and further tuning was impossible.

GIAC will be working further on the race gas program in the very near future and will strongly suggest a stronger clutch with this upgrade.

It is not in my, nor GIAC's nature to claim a number unless it has been achieved repeatably. The comment was in passing to some AZ members and the football was run with at that point. I should have said this sooner, as it seems that many have used this “Claim” to discredit me and GIAC for whatever reasons.

When the file is done the results will be posted for all to see. The work is already beginning and when we have a repeatable solid file everyone will see the results.

All “Crank” numbers are just estimates that need to be taken with a grain of salt from anyone! Even the omnipotent Maha numbers as far as I am concerned.

THE MOST IMPORTANT MEASUREMENT IS HOW MUCH HAS BEEN GAINED FROM BASELINE.

I would appreciate an email or a phone call if you have anything negative to say about me. IMO that is the proper way to deal with a “problem.”
I have been in many contest/competitions/shootouts.... And will not be dragged into anything without a solid conversation first. If you want to see some of the published items I have been involved in and a timeline check out my web-site at Torque-Factory, Inc. (http://www.torque-factory.com) .

I will gladly respond to any questions that I can answer. If things start to get ugly I will untrack the thread you guys can just fight without me.

Jeff Moss



Jeff,

It is I who said the 250CHP X chip was a flat out lie, if my language was too strong than I apologize. At the time I felt that kind of claim deserved an appropriate response. All this bashing and harsh language is not the way we should approach this, cooler heads will prevail. However, it's just crazy, to think a K03 can achieve what a stock 2.7t B5 S4 does off the lot with just a chip and 100octane. If you can hit that somehow than awesome and I hope you can, we all want power. If you do I will take back my statement. You initially claimed 250CHP and 280lbs. of TQ on audiworld BTW, unless I read the post wrong, (link below) Still w/stock injectors, no FMIC, Exhaust? How in the hell can you get 250CHP? Maybe you can on GIAC's dyno, but we'll have to see an indy dyno chart to be sure, good luck with the chip. [;)]



http://forums.audiworld.com/a4gen2/msgs/584836.phtml

[David@EuroCode]

Originally posted by hyperspeed
more on the turbo.. when did u get chipped eric?

You want to dyno you car right? Well here is your opportunity we will pay for the dyno session just shoot me an e-mail or give us a call.

We can also hook you up with a deal on a test pipe if you want then you would be able to do before and after runs.


Cheers,

David Sarabi

[Jeff]

Originally posted by EVIL-AUDI
Not if I can help it. [mad]

Ok... time to post some shit before EVIL shuts this thread down. [:D] j/p

-Jeff

[foofighter]

anything that's got GIAC/Revo/Eurocode will be watched very carefully by staff so as to avoid any further issues like we had last week.

[fongaroos]

Originally posted by hyperspeed
more on the turbo.. when did u get chipped eric?

i got chipped last week...

i wanna dyno MY CAR!!!

i wanna see if that CAI actually does anything...

[fongaroos]

Originally posted by foofighter
anything that's got GIAC/Revo/Eurocode will be watched very carefully by staff so as to avoid any further issues like we had last week.

ummm... sorry im a bit out of the loop...but what happened last week?

[Jeff]

Originally posted by fongaroos
is that just the standard GIAC chip?

if 1.2 bar is the standard chip... then what is the "S" or "X" chip running at?

i already feel like the standard chip/programming is already REALLY AGGRESSIVE and i try not to push my car too hard cuz i feel like im gonna break something...

the "S" and "X" must be pushing REALLY REALLY HARD on the engine...

The "S" is the Standard chip, which you most likely have. The "S" chip is the 1.1-1.2 bar chip, while the "X" is the more aggressive 1.3-1.4 bar chip. According to Garrett, the "X" will make close to the same power numbers, but the torque is lot more aggressive and the turbos come on a lot sooner. However, a lot of people have problems with pinging here in CA w/ the 91octane MTBE gas--for the programs are made mainly on 93 octane they get out in the East Coast.

You should be ok with the "S" on 91 octane, and dont worry about pushing it too hard.

-Jeff

[EVIL-AUDI]

Originally posted by Jeff
Ok... time to post some shit before EVIL shuts this thread down. [:D] j/p

-Jeff

Try me.[;)]

[fongaroos]

Originally posted by Jeff
The "S" is the Standard chip, which you most likely have. The "S" chip is the 1.1-1.2 bar chip, while the "X" is the more aggressive 1.3-1.4 bar chip. According to Garrett, the "X" will make close to the same power numbers, but the torque is lot more aggressive and the turbos come on a lot sooner. However, a lot of people have problems with pinging here in CA w/ the 91octane MTBE gas--for the programs are made mainly on 93 octane they get out in the East Coast.

You should be ok with the "S" on 91 octane, and dont worry about pushing it too hard.

-Jeff

thanx thats helpful!

[HICK]

what happened last week? Flash back to high school!! It was not too bad at first, but turned south quickly. I think it must have been a shitty week for some last week. Who knows. We all have one thing in common, the drive to enjoy our cars to the fullest, so I think the flash´back is over for now.

[Mark]

was the 250/250 run done with stock injectors?

[fongaroos]

Originally posted by HICK
what happened last week? Flash back to high school!! It was not too bad at first, but turned south quickly. I think it must have been a shitty week for some last week. Who knows. We all have one thing in common, the drive to enjoy our cars to the fullest, so I think the flash´back is over for now.

ohh...you're talkin about the thread from last week...

nevermind... i thought you guys were talkin bout something else...

that was actually my thread...

[David@EuroCode]

Thanks for clarifying the 250CHP stock B6 A4 claim by GIAC Jeff so is it possible or not?

Also I wish you would have said this

"GIAC was able to get 250 ft/Lbs close to 240-250 chp for one run on a Beta RACE GAS program. The car was only able to make this number once due to a slipping clutch and further tuning was impossible."

Before you said this on AW.

"Was just speaking to Garrett today and they have an X program and an XR program. The X makes a good amount more torque and the XR makes about 250 hp and 280 crank on stock injectors. There is some reluctance to release due to some concerns about the stock clutch. Keep in touch and I will continue to ask."

You mention in this AZ post that the clutch was slipping when it made 240-250CHP and 250-280 ft/lb's torque (I quoted both numbers as AW & AZ claims aren’t the same) so is it fair to assume that there is room for growth with your XR program due to a slipping clutch?

You see you made these claims on your own and when you make claims people expect you to deliver if you don’t you will loose their trust and faith. To create hype to sell your product is great only if you can deliver with at least one car that can reproduce those numbers with the claimed bolt on which in this case was none stock everything. However if you cant you are going to pay for it greatly.

You also must keep in mind that everyone respects you because of your previous knowledge and experience but all the background and even magazine publications in the world won’t gain you respect if you have already lost it buy making claims that are not achievable. If these claims are achievable I will come here on AW and personally eat all my words I would like to see this car with my two eyes of course on an independent dyno naturally.

Cheers,

David Sarabi

[David@EuroCode]

Originally posted by foofighter
anything that's got GIAC/Revo/Eurocode will be watched very carefully by staff so as to avoid any further issues like we had last week.
With all do respect to AZ please do not drag EuroCode into this we never said anything here on AZ to offend anyone. Additionally the name Revo was mentioned but that is simply one of many vendors that we do business with. If one of our customers chooses to use the name EuroCode to voice their opinion that is their right but buy no means is this an indication of us getting involved in some ugly argument with any one or tuner here on AZ.

[zemun2]

Jeff,
What do you say when will we see the X-XR chip on a dyno?
Honestly these 250/280 numbers just dont seem realistic to me, that's 80 CHP over stock just on the chip and 100 octane gas.

I'm willing to chip in $20 and hopefully few more AZ-ers will too in order to share the cost of dyno runs.

Dejan

[neoprufrok]

I'd like to see this dyno. I'm just curious again how Dr. Lim can get by the fuel issue. The b6's don't supply enough fuel based on most calculations to get above even 195hp wihtout retarding timing. I notice how most of hte german tuners don't even go above 195 either.

[foofighter]

with all due respect to you sir...i understand that your company hasn't done anything to offend the memebers...it just so happens that when chip tuning is brought up it always seems to get heated so staff is advised to watch for threads containing such talks as more than likely it'll turn into a mudslinging session. That is all, I did not imply that your company was involved.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by Villains
Jeff,

Once the file is complete and is satisfactory with GIAC, would you be willing to have it dyno'd on the MAHA with a few AZ'ers on site? We would all like to see what the file can do and we all hope that is does make 240 CHP. None of us want the products that are available for our cars to perform poorly. We all want the best for our cars. I have worked with you in the past and have referred people to you; so I ask this out of curiosity and to quiet down all of the claims from both sides and just have hard numbers and facts. I dislike all the hearsay and naysayers as much as you do.

Thanks,
Derrick

That sounds like fun if eveyone can keep it friendly I will gladly participate.

Since you are inviting me I have a request. I do not like the Maha and here are the reasons why:

1. Fans. Although they are supersonic they do not adequately emulate the road speeds that the Maha simulates. This is compounded by #2

2. Length of time on the dyno. Last cars we put on the Maha ran for an excess of 40 seconds. Every other dyno I have used has not exceeded 15 seconds. I measured the IAT's and they were double what was seen at another dyno. This can cause multiple problems and the one besides possible engine damage that needs to be considered is that when IAT's get that high the ecu starts to run everything very very rich. If you have a program that is tuned for those very unusual conditions it has a big leg up on one that is tuned to more realistic IAT's.

With all that geekinese out of the way. No Maha. Must have good fans. LMK when and where and we will see how it goes.

Got to go. Have a chip job coming in. Will come back later a look at this thread and reply.

Adios.

Moss

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by fongaroos
is that just the standard GIAC chip?

if 1.2 bar is the standard chip... then what is the "S" or "X" chip running at?

i already feel like the standard chip/programming is already REALLY AGGRESSIVE and i try not to push my car too hard cuz i feel like im gonna break something...

the "S" and "X" must be pushing REALLY REALLY HARD on the engine...

How's it going Fongaroos?

I have installed hundreds of 1.8t chips myself. There is a very very very small failure rate on the 1.8t.

Give me a ring if you have any questions or concerns.

Jeff

[Silence]

Jeff,
May I ask a question? Now I know what happened to Ari's car on the Maha, and that is was tuned previously the night before on the GIAC dyno, yet why does it seem you are the only tuner to dislike the Maha? You seem to be the only one that is outspoken against it. The way I look at it is, if your car cannot sustain 40 seconds on a dyno, it should never be on the street. No other cars I know of had problems on the dyno that day other than Ari's.

The reason for the Maha challenge is there have been a few b6 a4's that have run on it. It would be great to use as a base, being there has been a fwd, quattro, and an e-05 file tested. The cars were an 02,03,and an 04, so all bases have been covered. David as well dynoed his gt28rs and 71r on that dyno. Personally, I feel this would be the best comparison, and David is paying, so it can't get any better than that.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
Jeff,

It is I who said the 250CHP X chip was a flat out lie, if my language was too strong than I apologize. At the time I felt that kind of claim deserved an appropriate response. All this bashing and harsh language is not the way we should approach this, cooler heads will prevail. However, it's just crazy, to think a K03 can achieve what a stock 2.7t B5 S4 does off the lot with just a chip and 100octane. If you can hit that somehow than awesome and I hope you can, we all want power. If you do I will take back my statement. You initially claimed 250CHP and 280lbs. of TQ on audiworld BTW, unless I read the post wrong, (link below) Still w/stock injectors, no FMIC, Exhaust? How in the hell can you get 250CHP? Maybe you can on GIAC's dyno, but we'll have to see an indy dyno chart to be sure, good luck with the chip. [;)]



http://forums.audiworld.com/a4gen2/msgs/584836.phtml

My quote is -

"Was just speaking to Garrett today and they have an X program and an XR program. The X makes a good amount more torque and the XR makes about 250 hp and 280 crank on stock injectors. There is some reluctance to release due to some concerns about the stock clutch. Keep in touch and I will continue to ask. "

That is what I was told. And in all honesty not out of the ball-park from the testing the other night. Time will tell how close we can come repeatably once we have a good amount of time into it.

I agree that it seems crazy. Octane makes a big difference. We will all see how it turns out.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by Mark
was the 250/250 run done with stock injectors?

Yes. What many do not understand is that with higher octane you can run a little bit leaner and get more mileage out of an injector.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by David@EuroCode
Thanks for clarifying the 250CHP stock B6 A4 claim by GIAC Jeff so is it possible or not?

Also I wish you would have said this

"GIAC was able to get 250 ft/Lbs close to 240-250 chp for one run on a Beta RACE GAS program. The car was only able to make this number once due to a slipping clutch and further tuning was impossible."

Before you said this on AW.

"Was just speaking to Garrett today and they have an X program and an XR program. The X makes a good amount more torque and the XR makes about 250 hp and 280 crank on stock injectors. There is some reluctance to release due to some concerns about the stock clutch. Keep in touch and I will continue to ask."

You mention in this AZ post that the clutch was slipping when it made 240-250CHP and 250-280 ft/lb's torque (I quoted both numbers as AW & AZ claims aren’t the same) so is it fair to assume that there is room for growth with your XR program due to a slipping clutch?

You see you made these claims on your own and when you make claims people expect you to deliver if you don’t you will loose their trust and faith. To create hype to sell your product is great only if you can deliver with at least one car that can reproduce those numbers with the claimed bolt on which in this case was none stock everything. However if you cant you are going to pay for it greatly.

You also must keep in mind that everyone respects you because of your previous knowledge and experience but all the background and even magazine publications in the world won’t gain you respect if you have already lost it buy making claims that are not achievable. If these claims are achievable I will come here on AW and personally eat all my words I would like to see this car with my two eyes of course on an independent dyno naturally.

Cheers,

David Sarabi


My credibility, peoples faith, my own claims, more than 250, making claims that are not achievable....

You seem to be trying to rile this up.

Here is how I started THIS post-


Many here seem very hostile about the 250 chp claim that I made in February to some AZ folks that I met at an event. To the point of some calling me a liar, a fool or just plain a scam. Having been in this business as long as I have my feeling is one of distaste for how this has been dealt with.

Let me clarify some things.

GIAC was able to get 250 ft/Lbs close to 240-250 chp for one run on a Beta RACE GAS program. The car was only able to make this number once due to a slipping clutch and further tuning was impossible.

GIAC will be working further on the race gas program in the very near future and will strongly suggest a stronger clutch with this upgrade.

It is not in my, nor GIAC's nature to claim a number unless it has been achieved repeatably. The comment was in passing to some AZ members and the football was run with at that point. I should have said this sooner, as it seems that many have used this “Claim” to discredit me and GIAC for whatever reasons.

When the file is done the results will be posted for all to see. The work is already beginning and when we have a repeatable solid file everyone will see the results.

All “Crank” numbers are just estimates that need to be taken with a grain of salt from anyone! Even the omnipotent Maha numbers as far as I am concerned.

THE MOST IMPORTANT MEASUREMENT IS HOW MUCH HAS BEEN GAINED FROM BASELINE.

I would appreciate an email or a phone call if you have anything negative to say about me. IMO that is the proper way to deal with a “problem.”
I have been in many contest/competitions/shootouts.... And will not be dragged into anything without a solid conversation first. If you want to see some of the published items I have been involved in and a timeline check out my web-site at Torque-Factory, Inc. .

I will gladly respond to any questions that I can answer. If things start to get ugly I will untrack the thread you guys can just fight without me.


Like I said. We will see how close we can come to the claims. If you choose to think that I am a liar fine.

Time will tell.

Jeff

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by zemun2
Jeff,
What do you say when will we see the X-XR chip on a dyno?
Honestly these 250/280 numbers just dont seem realistic to me, that's 80 CHP over stock just on the chip and 100 octane gas.

I'm willing to chip in $20 and hopefully few more AZ-ers will too in order to share the cost of dyno runs.

Dejan

The base file has already started being worked on. Garrett is on vacation for the next week and after that Waterfest.

Give the guy a little time. We have a good test car and a willing programmer.

Whatever happens I will release the dyno.

Jeff

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by neoprufrok
I'd like to see this dyno. I'm just curious again how Dr. Lim can get by the fuel issue. The b6's don't supply enough fuel based on most calculations to get above even 195hp wihtout retarding timing. I notice how most of hte german tuners don't even go above 195 either.

A calculation is an educated guess.

Based on calculated BSFC, VE and many software limits.

A race gase program is able to run much more timing due to the high octane fuel and gets further on the same injectors.

Neo, I am not here to argue with anyone. Let's see what happens in the end. If GIAC can come close to the 250 mark, cool. Some may even owe me an apologee.

And if they cannot come close I was wrong and I suck.[:)]

Let's all have a soda and see what happens.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by Silence
Jeff,
May I ask a question? Now I know what happened to Ari's car on the Maha, and that is was tuned previously the night before on the GIAC dyno, yet why does it seem you are the only tuner to dislike the Maha? You seem to be the only one that is outspoken against it. The way I look at it is, if your car cannot sustain 40 seconds on a dyno, it should never be on the street. No other cars I know of had problems on the dyno that day other than Ari's.

The reason for the Maha challenge is there have been a few b6 a4's that have run on it. It would be great to use as a base, being there has been a fwd, quattro, and an e-05 file tested. The cars were an 02,03,and an 04, so all bases have been covered. David as well dynoed his gt28rs and 71r on that dyno. Personally, I feel this would be the best comparison, and David is paying, so it can't get any better than that.


Sure. You don't know what happened to Ari's car. If you want some of that info call me.

No other dyno runs for that long. How fast are you going in 40 seconds? Over 115 mph? How fast are the Maha fans blowing air over your radiator?

I have seen the difference in IAT's. Am not making that up.

There should be no problem with another dyno if we have another baseline car. Besides, someone else called me out. I should have some say in where we go.

[Silence]

I spoke to Ari at length about it. I'm pretty sure I know what happened.

[David@EuroCode]

Hello Jeff,

You mention in this AZ post that the clutch was slipping when it made 240-250CHP and 250-280 ft/lb's torque (I quoted both numbers as AW & AZ claims aren’t the same) so is it fair to assume that there is room for growth even beyond these numbers with your XR program due to a slipping clutch??????????

Avoiding my question I assume.

1St claim on AW
"The X makes a good amount more torque and the XR makes about 250 hp and 280 crank on stock injectors."

Notice 250CHP & 280 ft/lb Claim on AW

2nd claim on AZ
"GIAC was able to get 250 ft/Lbs close to 240-250 chp for one run on a Beta RACE GAS program."

Notice 240-250CHP & 250 ft/lb claim on AZ


I'm not calling you a liar so don’t put words in my mouth Jeff your stories just don't match and I'm just pointing them out.

"Time will tell."
It seems that it will your last claim of 250CHP & 280ft/lb's was made on 2004-04-22 19:58:06 nearly 3 months ago how many more months do you need? You mentioned that you had already achieved those number and were reluctant to release it just need a better clutch. I will provide and install a clutch on a stock car for free if you can show me a stock car with your GIAC file that produces 250CHP & 280ft/lb's on Race gas if not you will pay for the clutch and install you seem so confident so what do you say?

04-22
"the XR makes about 250 hp and 280 crank on stock injectors. There is some reluctance to release due to some concerns about the stock clutch."

In the above statement on 04-22 you claim the file is done but and that you are reluctant to release it due to clutch issues. On 07-01 below you say that when the file is done that you will posted the results for everyone to see. So is it done or not and why the conflicting statements? Also whose dyno are these results going to come from?

07-01
"When the file is done the results will be posted for all to see. The work is already beginning and when we have a repeatable solid file everyone will see the results."

[neoprufrok]

Originally posted by J. Moss
A calculation is an educated guess.

Based on calculated BSFC, VE and many software limits.

A race gase program is able to run much more timing due to the high octane fuel and gets further on the same injectors.

Neo, I am not here to argue with anyone. Let's see what happens in the end. If GIAC can come close to the 250 mark, cool. Some may even owe me an apologee.

And if they cannot come close I was wrong and I suck.[:)]

Let's all have a soda and see what happens.

That is true about the octane. My bad. Didn't see that you guy swere running race gas!

[fongaroos]

Originally posted by J. Moss
How's it going Fongaroos?

I have installed hundreds of 1.8t chips myself. There is a very very very small failure rate on the 1.8t.

Give me a ring if you have any questions or concerns.

Jeff

THANX JEFF!!!

its running great so far...
it pulls pretty hard and that day we did the install...i think the engine didnt have enough time to adapt...

it feels pretty good now.

how long will the OE DV last before failure?

im running the OE DV right now...


also... did you get my email?

[zemun2]

Jeff,
MAHA is only Audi aproved dyno, the 170 CHP that Audi claims is on MAHA dyno.
What better dyno to test GIAC chip on then it.
GIAC chip will have to run 40 sec. and thats same amount of time REVO will have to do too, we are not asking you to dyno GIAC on MAHA and REVO on Mustang, it's apples for apples.


Dejan

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by neoprufrok
That is true about the octane. My bad. Didn't see that you guy swere running race gas!


Rich,

Your doubts are right on, the higher octane wouldn't give you that kind of power gain from a K03, running our car leaner is not a good idea BTW, GIAC advances their timing a bit too much as well, IMO. It's about the throttle plate shutting too, as far as I know GIAC does not have the ability to keep it open on a B6 DBW at 1.5bar, that's been the issue at running 1.5 bar on our cars, i.e. surging. You can't get 250HP without running the boost at 1.5. Revo has the ability to keep the throttle plate open, and running a good A/F ratio, again running lean is very very bad on our cars, any car for that matter. It's about more fuel not higher octane, the stock injectors are totally limited at 225HP on 100octane, 250CHP w/stock injectors on 120 octane won't get you 250HP, maybe on a dynojet, but not the MAHA, which is what the Audi standard is.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by Silence
I spoke to Ari at length about it. I'm pretty sure I know what happened.

If you know what happened why ask me the question? I was giving you the opurtunity to hear the other side. If your mind is made up there is nothing I can say.

If you are ready to hear the break-down from a clinical standpoint call me.

Jeff

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by David@EuroCode
Hello Jeff,

You mention in this AZ post that the clutch was slipping when it made 240-250CHP and 250-280 ft/lb's torque (I quoted both numbers as AW & AZ claims aren’t the same) so is it fair to assume that there is room for growth even beyond these numbers with your XR program due to a slipping clutch??????????

Avoiding my question I assume.

1St claim on AW
"The X makes a good amount more torque and the XR makes about 250 hp and 280 crank on stock injectors."

Notice 250CHP & 280 ft/lb Claim on AW

2nd claim on AZ
"GIAC was able to get 250 ft/Lbs close to 240-250 chp for one run on a Beta RACE GAS program."

Notice 240-250CHP & 250 ft/lb claim on AZ


I'm not calling you a liar so don’t put words in my mouth Jeff your stories just don't match and I'm just pointing them out.

"Time will tell."
It seems that it will your last claim of 250CHP & 280ft/lb's was made on 2004-04-22 19:58:06 nearly 3 months ago how many more months do you need? You mentioned that you had already achieved those number and were reluctant to release it just need a better clutch. I will provide and install a clutch on a stock car for free if you can show me a stock car with your GIAC file that produces 250CHP & 280ft/lb's on Race gas if not you will pay for the clutch and install you seem so confident so what do you say?

04-22
"the XR makes about 250 hp and 280 crank on stock injectors. There is some reluctance to release due to some concerns about the stock clutch."

In the above statement on 04-22 you claim the file is done but and that you are reluctant to release it due to clutch issues. On 07-01 below you say that when the file is done that you will posted the results for everyone to see. So is it done or not and why the conflicting statements? Also whose dyno are these results going to come from?

07-01
"When the file is done the results will be posted for all to see. The work is already beginning and when we have a repeatable solid file everyone will see the results."

7-7 (now)

I don't know where this anymosity comes from. I left you a message this morning. Give me a ring, there are some things you do not know.

As far as the "Claims" made before. Get ready to quote me forever-

I was just going from some testing that had been done on ONE car. If it was fluke, I made a mistake. The file is being worked on again now. And the results will be posted.

I have a good test car. If the car makes 250 I will send you a bill for a clutch[;)]

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by neoprufrok
That is true about the octane. My bad. Didn't see that you guy swere running race gas!

No problem Neo,

I was pretty clear from the beginning that the car was run on race fuel. But for some reason people have made it seem that the claim was made for regular fuel...

Jeff

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by fongaroos
THANX JEFF!!!

its running great so far...
it pulls pretty hard and that day we did the install...i think the engine didnt have enough time to adapt...

it feels pretty good now.

how long will the OE DV last before failure?

im running the OE DV right now...


also... did you get my email?


Good to hear.

I like the oem DV. I just change them as a regular service item every 30-50k.

Am having some email problems since my new site went up. Give me a ring.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by zemun2
Jeff,
MAHA is only Audi aproved dyno, the 170 CHP that Audi claims is on MAHA dyno.
What better dyno to test GIAC chip on then it.
GIAC chip will have to run 40 sec. and thats same amount of time REVO will have to do too, we are not asking you to dyno GIAC on MAHA and REVO on Mustang, it's apples for apples.


Dejan


One of my main points is that we could tune for the correct fueling at the higher IAT's. But we have not. The fuel dump that occurs at elavated IAT's is a safety protocol that we are not happy to touch.

If both cars are at the same dyno who cares?

You guys called me out. Let me name the dyno.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
Rich,

Your doubts are right on, the higher octane wouldn't give you that kind of power gain from a K03, running our car leaner is not a good idea BTW, GIAC advances their timing a bit too much as well, IMO. It's about the throttle plate shutting too, as far as I know GIAC does not have the ability to keep it open on a B6 DBW at 1.5bar, that's been the issue at running 1.5 bar on our cars, i.e. surging. You can't get 250HP without running the boost at 1.5. Revo has the ability to keep the throttle plate open, and running a good A/F ratio, again running lean is very very bad on our cars, any car for that matter. It's about more fuel not higher octane, the stock injectors are totally limited at 225HP on 100octane, 250CHP w/stock injectors on 120 octane won't get you 250HP, maybe on a dynojet, but not the MAHA, which is what the Audi standard is.

Derrick,

There are many factors at play here. The above is very over simplified and GIAC can run very high boost if needed.

What information do you have that the timing is too far advanced? What are the knock voltages?

[J. Moss]

The level of hostility in this situation/thread is disturbing and unfortunate.

Call me. Don't slam keys in the dark.

310-466-4296

[Silence]

Jeff, just so you know, DLSJ5 is not Derrick, you're thinking about Villains. DLSJ5 did however have a t28 kit tuned by GIAC that was released unfinished and detonated. He as well was promised software tuning for months, with nothing ever happening. Just an FYI

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by Silence
Jeff, just so you know, DLSJ5 is not Derrick, you're thinking about Villains. DLSJ5 did however have a t28 kit tuned by GIAC that was released unfinished and detonated. He as well was promised software tuning for months, with nothing ever happening. Just an FYI

Oops. Sorry. Not my customers and this is getting a little out of control.

In case no one here noticed, I am not PES or GIAC.

Jeff

[J. Moss]

Oh, almost forgot. My phone is not ringing with your name on the screen.

Jeff

[fongaroos]

is dlsj5 the guy that beat the m3? the thread that had the video up lately?

[zemun2]

No that was Silence

[foofighter]

jeff thank you for your professionalism and all the members that are being constructive...

[Silence]

I have already read your numerous posts about it in the the S4 forum. My question to you wasn't why the car couldn't handle the MAHA, but rather "why does it seem you are the only tuner to dislike the Maha? You seem to be the only one that is outspoken against it. The way I look at it is, if your car cannot sustain 40 seconds on a dyno, it should never be on the street. No other cars I know of had problems on the dyno that day other than Ari's." Oh and bw, I'm not here to argue with you, or "call you out". Just to ask a question.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by foofighter
jeff thank you for your professionalism and all the members that are being constructive...

You are very welcome FF,

I have always had good things to say about AZ. Not sure why the tone has seemed to change so much lately.

My phone is still not ringing to the people that are calling me out.

Gonna have to leave this for a while, have some work to do.



Jeff

[fongaroos]

jeff (moss) did you get my email? i emailed you last week about my install...

[A4NCAR]

Originally posted by J. Moss
That sounds like fun if eveyone can keep it friendly I will gladly participate.

Since you are inviting me I have a request. I do not like the Maha and here are the reasons why:

1. Fans. Although they are supersonic they do not adequately emulate the road speeds that the Maha simulates. This is compounded by #2

2. Length of time on the dyno. Last cars we put on the Maha ran for an excess of 40 seconds. Every other dyno I have used has not exceeded 15 seconds. I measured the IAT's and they were double what was seen at another dyno. This can cause multiple problems and the one besides possible engine damage that needs to be considered is that when IAT's get that high the ecu starts to run everything very very rich. If you have a program that is tuned for those very unusual conditions it has a big leg up on one that is tuned to more realistic IAT's.

With all that geekinese out of the way. No Maha. Must have good fans. LMK when and where and we will see how it goes.

Got to go. Have a chip job coming in. Will come back later a look at this thread and reply.

Adios.

Moss


Fear of the MAHA [eek]

There's nothing more fun then hearing arguments about dynos and their results. And it's always interesting to hear peoples comments about this dyno, and boy, do they come up with anything and everything. And mostly based on the simple fact that it doesn't give them the results they got on another dyno, or what they claimed/expected - "It must be the dyno". [rolleyes] They always seem to put it down and yet know nothing about it. It's a shame we do not have a MAHA expert/tech to enlighten us.

Maybe I should blame the MAHA for my low MTM Stage 2 numbers and dismiss them as false, inaccurate, because my car was driven normally from a stop, on up to 121 mph. That just isn't normal driving, right. That's more then 40 secs too I think - although I didn't time it. What does it matter if the car is on it 15 secs or 40 secs, or longer? That just doesn't make any sense to me. Who cares if every other dyno has 15 sec runs. This isn't every other dyno.

Audi, MTM,.. and many others use this dyno. As to the fan, the air is brought in from outside and as I understand, it increases with the cars speed. The thing is massive. How could it not simulate realistic wind forces? I have seen those "floor stand" fans that other dyno's use. What's realistic about those.

[:D]

[David@EuroCode]

Originally posted by J. Moss
Sure. You don't know what happened to Ari's car. If you want some of that info call me.

No other dyno runs for that long. How fast are you going in 40 seconds? Over 115 mph? How fast are the Maha fans blowing air over your radiator?

I have seen the difference in IAT's. Am not making that up.

There should be no problem with another dyno if we have another baseline car. Besides, someone else called me out. I should have some say in where we go.

When you drive in 4th or 5th gear on the highway flat out it is usually more than 15 seconds ? As for the fan, the Volume of air on the MAHA fan is actually 2x of what Maha recommends as a normal model. AMS had them make a double Air 7 unit which they call the Air 8. It does not make the airspeed faster but makes 2x the volume of air. As for the speed of the Air hitting the front face of the vehicle is it well over 100Kph. The fan system also controlled by the speed of the car during the test. Thus simulating "real world conditions".

You are just going against the grain and the whole consortium of European Manufactures and Tuners IMHO.

Maybe well have the television show fear factor use the MAHA to scare tuners and see who's willing to take the real challenge[;)] .

[David@EuroCode]

Originally posted by A4NCAR
Fear of the MAHA [eek]

There's nothing more fun then hearing arguments about dynos and their results. And it's always interesting to hear peoples comments about this dyno, and boy, do they come up with anything and everything. And mostly based on the simple fact that it doesn't give them the results they got on another dyno, or what they claimed/expected - "It must be the dyno". [rolleyes] They always seem to put it down and yet know nothing about it. It's a shame we do not have a MAHA expert/tech to enlighten us.

Maybe I should blame the MAHA for my low MTM Stage 2 numbers and dismiss them as false, inaccurate, because my car was driven normally from a stop, on up to 121 mph. That just isn't normal driving, right. That's more then 40 secs too I think - although I didn't time it. What does it matter if the car is on it 15 secs or 40 secs, or longer? That just doesn't make any sense to me. Who cares if every other dyno has 15 sec runs. This isn't every other dyno.

Audi, MTM,.. and many others use this dyno. As to the fan, the air is brought in from outside and as I understand, it increases with the cars speed. The thing is massive. How could it not simulate realistic wind forces? I have seen those "floor stand" fans that other dyno's use. What's realistic about those.

[:D]

I second that

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by J. Moss
You are very welcome FF,

I have always had good things to say about AZ. Not sure why the tone has seemed to change so much lately.

My phone is still not ringing to the people that are calling me out.

Gonna have to leave this for a while, have some work to do.



Jeff

Jeff,

I think a constructive debate is good, I don't feel as if anyone has gotten out of line on this thread. The one that was deleted is a whole other issue. The tone has changed because many of us feel you are making outrageous claims about what a chip can do for our cars. That to me is not being professional in any way. As far as my knowledge of GIAC chips pushing the timing too much, all I can say is every single GIAC chipped car that I have vagged is pulling timing at least 10 degrees, that's not good. I've only vagged 5 cars, so that's not a high number, I have yet to vag a Revo tuned car that detonates.


Foo w/ regards to your statments about Jeff's professionalism, and leaving specific names out--

I'm sorry but most of us here have been professional, a few got a little hot under the collar but cooler heads prevailed, to just name Jeff is kinda being partial and unfair. What's worse calling somebody out or claiming false HP numbers? 250HP, you gotta respond to that cause that's the issue. Jeff maybe low key in his tone but his claims and statements are quit the opposite and they just don't add up, I'm not going to list them anymore as it's been said over and over again. He has never specifically answered a question to my satisfaction, or most here for that matter. What do you think about the claim?

[hyperspeed]

david@ecode:

hey how come u keep asking if ill b there at the dyno? are u confusing me with another jeff? so far thers 3 jeffs here.. hahah

me/hyperspeed, with my black a4
jeff/Jeff, with the blue a4
jeff moss/J.Moss, with torque-factory....

just setting things straight.. i was the one that met u at the ktown meet and we chit chatted occasionally about ur FMIC.. i wanted the one exactly like kennys.. polished endtanks etc etc.. just settin the record straight! but aside from that ill still be there, hehe i cant miss this..and if u wanna dyno my car sure [;)] but im on neuspeed... lol

[Villains]

Hey guys,

EuroTuner magazine just replied to my email and they will attend the dyno shootout and cover it!!!

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by A4NCAR
Fear of the MAHA [eek]


OK.

Once again.

I have seen large differences in IAT's on the MAHA vs what is seen on the road and on other dyno's.

Higher IAT's also cause richer running.

At the end of a 4rth gear pull (+- 40-50 seconds) your car on the road would be traveling near 120 mph. The air speed with the AMS/Maha fans is no where near that.

At other dynos that I have spent time with we have analyzed the relevant IAT's on the road. And checked that the temps on the dyno are similar. If they are not the testing and fan configuration is adjusted until the conditions are comparable.

There is no mystery or fear involved.

Jeff

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by David@EuroCode
When you drive in 4th or 5th gear on the highway flat out it is usually more than 15 seconds ? As for the fan, the Volume of air on the MAHA fan is actually 2x of what Maha recommends as a normal model. AMS had them make a double Air 7 unit which they call the Air 8. It does not make the airspeed faster but makes 2x the volume of air. As for the speed of the Air hitting the front face of the vehicle is it well over 100Kph. The fan system also controlled by the speed of the car during the test. Thus simulating "real world conditions".

You are just going against the grain and the whole consortium of European Manufactures and Tuners IMHO.

Maybe well have the television show fear factor use the MAHA to scare tuners and see who's willing to take the real challenge[;)] .

100 kph is only 62 mph. You guys challenged me. I call the dyno.

You have not called me yet.

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by J. Moss
OK.

Once again.

I have seen large differences in IAT's on the MAHA vs what is seen on the road and on other dyno's.

Higher IAT's also cause richer running.

At the end of a 4rth gear pull (+- 40-50 seconds) your car on the road would be traveling near 120 mph. The air speed with the AMS/Maha fans is no where near that.

At other dynos that I have spent time with we have analyzed the relevant IAT's on the road. And checked that the temps on the dyno are similar. If they are not the testing and fan configuration is adjusted until the conditions are comparable.

There is no mystery or fear involved.

Jeff

WTF? That MAHA fan is a Hurricane, if anything it's pushing too much air! This is another example of the statements that I can't buy from you Jeff, go stand in front of that Fan at AMS and you can barely stand up! WOW![confused]

Also there's really no need to call you on the phone, that's what these forums are for to find out the facts to share info with each other, what is a private phone conversation gonna do? Share the info for all to see and judge for themselves.

[David@EuroCode]

Originally posted by hyperspeed
david@ecode:

hey how come u keep asking if ill b there at the dyno? are u confusing me with another jeff? so far thers 3 jeffs here.. hahah

me/hyperspeed, with my black a4
jeff/Jeff, with the blue a4
jeff moss/J.Moss, with torque-factory....

just setting things straight.. i was the one that met u at the ktown meet and we chit chatted occasionally about ur FMIC.. i wanted the one exactly like kennys.. polished endtanks etc etc.. just settin the record straight! but aside from that ill still be there, hehe i cant miss this..and if u wanna dyno my car sure [;)] but im on neuspeed... lol

Yeah sorry my bad I was thinking you were the guy with the stock fwd A4 and the GIAC software real nice guy if you find tell him to give me a call so we can dyno his car I'm paying.

Send me an e-mail about the FMIC I got good news.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
Jeff,

I think a constructive debate is good, I don't feel as if anyone has gotten out of line on this thread. The one that was deleted is a whole other issue. The tone has changed because many of us feel you are making outrageous claims about what a chip can do for our cars. That to me is not being professional in any way. As far as my knowledge of GIAC chips pushing the timing too much, all I can say is every single GIAC chipped car that I have vagged is pulling timing at least 10 degrees, that's not good. I've only vagged 5 cars, so that's not a high number, I have yet to vag a Revo tuned car that detonates.

Pulling timing is not detonation. Knock voltages that are getting high is. Check block 026.



Foo w/ regards to your statments about Jeff's professionalism, and leaving specific names out--

I'm sorry but most of us here have been professional, a few got a little hot under the collar but cooler heads prevailed, to just name Jeff is kinda being partial and unfair. What's worse calling somebody out or claiming false HP numbers? 250HP, you gotta respond to that cause that's the issue. Jeff maybe low key in his tone but his claims and statements are quit the opposite and they just don't add up, I'm not going to list them anymore as it's been said over and over again. He has never specifically answered a question to my satisfaction, or most here for that matter. What do you think about the claim?

Listen. I will post the numbers when the file is done. Whether it shows 205, 225 or 275 (right...). And no it will not be on a MAHA.

Have a little patience. Sell as much Revo as you like. The results will come.


Jeff

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
WTF? That MAHA fan is a Hurricane, if anything it's pushing too much air! This is another example of the statements that I can't buy from you Jeff, go stand in front of that Fan at AMS and you can barely stand up! WOW![confused]

Also there's really no need to call you on the phone, that's what these forums are for to find out the facts to share info with each other, what is a private phone conversation gonna do? Share the info for all to see and judge for themselves.


If you are unwilling to listen to my point of view why are we even typing at each other.

You don't like me, and the software that I use. Fine.

Why try and start fights with me every time I have something to say? You don't agree, think I am full of shit.....

OK. Fine. I get it. Next time I see you don't smile and be nice. Just be the same way you are now.

Jeff

[Jeff]

Originally posted by J. Moss
If you are unwilling to listen to my point of view why are we even typing at each other.

You don't like me, and the software that I use. Fine.

Why try and start fights with me every time I have something to say? You don't agree, think I am full of shit.....

OK. Fine. I get it. Next time I see you don't smile and be nice. Just be the same way you are now.

Jeff

Moss,

Like I always told you, people "GROW BALLS" over the internet. Next time remind me to bring my keyboard when I meet these guys offline so they can "Type Away".

Don't let it get to you man.

-Jeff

[zemun2]

Jeff,
I dont think it fair to say that DLSJ5 or any of us here don't like you, it's just matter of you claiming certain things without any backing.
Audi only aproves one dyno and it is MAHA, not Dynojet not Mustang just MAHA.
Reason why everyone here wants you to use MAHA is cuz we have all seen other dynos and none comes even close to MAHA when it comes to air distribution.

Dejan

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by J. Moss
Pulling timing is not detonation. Knock voltages that are getting high is. Check block 026.


[B]

Listen. I will post the numbers when the file is done. Whether it shows 205, 225 or 275 (right...). And no it will not be on a MAHA.

Have a little patience. Sell as much Revo as you like. The results will come.


Jeff



Jeff,

The ECU is pulling timing back 10 degrees of timing because within the GIAC programming the timing is advanced too far, that is what I meant. Does that make sense?

Also I don't sell Revo, but I can tell you it's ran the best so far on my car. I haven't hade APR yet but I will when I get my Stage 3 and I bet that has no detonation issues as the DBW B5 stage 3 cars have ran much better than the GIAC DBW T28 cars. I know Garret is a genious and GIAC makes good stuff, look at Digitalx's B5, car, it's a beast. But personally I've seen more bad than good on the A4's.

Best,

Drew

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by J. Moss
If you are unwilling to listen to my point of view why are we even typing at each other.

You don't like me, and the software that I use. Fine.

Why try and start fights with me every time I have something to say? You don't agree, think I am full of shit.....

OK. Fine. I get it. Next time I see you don't smile and be nice. Just be the same way you are now.

Jeff

Jeff,

Okay, this is getting weird. I've met you and you were a super nice guy. This is not personal, I apologize calling the 250CHP # a flat out lie and I hope that I eat my words. I apologize for that. I don't think disagreements equal dislike, we just don't see eye to eye on things.

Again I apologize for any personal attacks on you and next time I see you, I'm gonna shake your hand and be cordial and diplomatic, we agree to disagree. Fair enough, but the other Jeff should us a more mature tone when defending someone. I will refrain from questioning you anymore, until we meet face to face so we can talk about it then, I think we're going in circles anyway. BTW, what did you think of the M3 run? Best of luck with the chip, I mean that sincerely and I hope you can achieve the #'s. [:)]

Best,

Drew

[bugzy]

Just to add to the mix, CMH (Mike Hood) previously before he has his giant turbo

he put down 250 chp and 300 tq with 103 oct GIAC software on a B5 1.8t stock K03

he ran 14.2 sec quarter mile

i spoke with GIAC a lil over a year ago, and he told me about a beta chip that was putting down 270 tq .. but he detoned the release chip because clutch

so i dont doubt some of these claims ...

ive seen Mike Hood's car that thing is wicked ... so if Garrett claims he can do the same power from Mike Hood's B5 for a B6 .. i dont see why not

Garrett told my car injectors were plenty good for 270 tq ...

[foofighter]

DLSJ5: I merely commented on the fact that in a discussion such as this it is REALLY easy for someone to loose their cool and start going off. If Jeff has something to prove to you all then fine he'll do so and if it's not true then fine you can debate in a mature manner. I called him out because he is the one that's under the microscope...and he's keeping his cool. That is all...no favoritism here so rest easy...

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by foofighter
DLSJ5: I merely commented on the fact that in a discussion such as this it is REALLY easy for someone to loose their cool and start going off. If Jeff has something to prove to you all then fine he'll do so and if it's not true then fine you can debate in a mature manner. I called him out because he is the one that's under the microscope...and he's keeping his cool. That is all...no favoritism here so rest easy...

Good to know. [:)] I think all the tuners/vendors are under a microscope, it's a tuff gig. They all get bashed, usually unfairly, for me it's a question of honesty cause I've been bamboozeld by a few of them. You can call me Drew BTW. [:)]

[neoprufrok]

Originally posted by Villains
Hey guys,

EuroTuner magazine just replied to my email and they will attend the dyno shootout and cover it!!!

NICE!! Great job Derrick for lining this up and getting coverage for it! You're hard work is most appreciated by us on this forum.

[foofighter]

good drew...i dont want any ambiguities coming from staff in the midst of all this debate. So have at it and keep it clean [;)]

[neoprufrok]

Originally posted by bugzy


Garrett told my car injectors were plenty good for 270 tq ...

That couldn't be true Lon. Unless thats with 100 octane gas.

91 pump gas... the injectors on our stock b6's flow as much as a beetle. I'm not sure where Dr. Lim came up with that.

[bugzy]

i believe he might be refer to race fuel ... i didnt get specs on everything

but he said the injectors on the B6 flow quite a bit more then the B5 setup

[fongaroos]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
Rich,

Your doubts are right on, the higher octane wouldn't give you that kind of power gain from a K03, running our car leaner is not a good idea BTW, GIAC advances their timing a bit too much as well, IMO. It's about the throttle plate shutting too, as far as I know GIAC does not have the ability to keep it open on a B6 DBW at 1.5bar, that's been the issue at running 1.5 bar on our cars, i.e. surging. You can't get 250HP without running the boost at 1.5. Revo has the ability to keep the throttle plate open, and running a good A/F ratio, again running lean is very very bad on our cars, any car for that matter. It's about more fuel not higher octane, the stock injectors are totally limited at 225HP on 100octane, 250CHP w/stock injectors on 120 octane won't get you 250HP, maybe on a dynojet, but not the MAHA, which is what the Audi standard is.

what is so bad about advancing the timing?

im a little confused about how the chip affects timing or how changing it produces power...

as for the programs in discussion...what im still sayin is that the programs that you guys are discussing are these "PROTOTYPE" or "X" programs...

im guessing that most of us dont even have that program...

why are we even talking about these mythical programs then if most of us have the STANDARD REVO or STANDARD GIAC programs?

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by fongaroos
what is so bad about advancing the timing?

im a little confused about how the chip affects timing or how changing it produces power...

as for the programs in discussion...what im still sayin is that the programs that you guys are discussing are these "PROTOTYPE" or "X" programs...

im guessing that most of us dont even have that program...

why are we even talking about these mythical programs then if most of us have the STANDARD REVO or STANDARD GIAC programs?


Pinging, is probably the #1 complaint with people that have chips, that or surging. On stock injectors my car is maxed out right now, there is no Revo X chip that will give me more power with my current setup. W/out going with bigger injectors I can't get past 225HP on 100 octane.

It's not bad when you properly advance the timing, that's one way the programmers make more power on our cars, or for any car, along with raising the boost level on our K03's. It's only bad when you advance it too much, especially if you are running 91 octane or you don't have a FMIC, then detonation (pinging) occurs and the ECU compensates and pulls back the timing so your engine doesn't blow. The more your ECU is pulling the timing back to prevent pinging, the more the chip has been programmed for timing advance. 0-5 degrees is the optimal range for our ECU to compensate for pushing the timing, it's simply a safety device, 10 degrees is way too high though and it can cause damage. I'll vag your car if you'd like or if there's ever a GTG, I'll show you what I mean on the Prodiag. [:)]

[fongaroos]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
Pinging, is probably the #1 complaint with people that have chips, that or surging. On stock injectors my car is maxed out right now, there is no Revo X chip that will give me more power with my current setup. W/out going with bigger injectors I can't get past 225HP on 100 octane.

It's not bad when you properly advance the timing, that's one way the programmers make more power on our cars, or for any car, along with raising the boost level on our K03's. It's only bad when you advance it too much, especially if you are running 91 octane or you don't have a FMIC, then detonation (pinging) occurs and the ECU compensates and pulls back the timing so your engine doesn't blow. The more your ECU is pulling the timing back to prevent pinging, the more the chip has been programmed for timing advance. 0-5 degrees is the optimal range for our ECU to compensate for pushing the timing, it's simply a safety device, 10 degrees is way too high though and it can cause damage. I'll vag your car if you'd like or if there's ever a GTG, I'll show you what I mean on the Prodiag. [:)]

OHH HECK YAH! i dont know why im so paranoid about BLOWING UP MY ENGINE... but if you could VAG my car.. that would give me some peace of mind...

i always fill up with 91 octane now... but i dont have an FMIC...

my car is a CVT with GIAC. i have a CAI but i dont know if that does anything other than the cool sound...

i dont think my car is pinging... and i dont think it really surges either. but it does feel like my gas pedal is slightly more sensitive...

i dont have to like STOMP ON IT to get the car going anymore...

[A4NCAR]

Originally posted by J. Moss
OK.

Once again.

I have seen large differences in IAT's on the MAHA vs what is seen on the road and on other dyno's.

Higher IAT's also cause richer running.

At the end of a 4rth gear pull (+- 40-50 seconds) your car on the road would be traveling near 120 mph. The air speed with the AMS/Maha fans is no where near that.

At other dynos that I have spent time with we have analyzed the relevant IAT's on the road. And checked that the temps on the dyno are similar. If they are not the testing and fan configuration is adjusted until the conditions are comparable.

There is no mystery or fear involved.

Jeff


Damn [confused]. You are just completely set against the MAHA dyno, aren't you? Isn't it being paid for by someone else? Why not just do it and then use another dyno as well to compare? Wouldn't that be "unbiased" enough for both parties involved? The conditions will be the same for both and you don't hear anyone else complaining about IAT's, air speed, length of time on the dyno, etc, etc.
And I don't think because they called you out, that the dyno choice is yours. It needs to be a dyno that neither has any affiliation with. AMS is a competitor for both. I would think you'd be willing to put it on any dyno... oh well. We all know results vary anyways. But I'm curious; if an A4 B6 customer of yours bought GIAC and then dyno'd on the MAHA and the results for HP/TQ were not what GIAC claimed, what would your response be? And what if it did deliver what they claim?

I think we should put your concerns about the validity of MAHA dyno results into a letter and forward them to the manufacturer. You seem to know what you are talking about and they could only benefit from your knowledge.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by A4NCAR
Damn [confused]. You are just completely set against the MAHA dyno, aren't you? Isn't it being paid for by someone else? Why not just do it and then use another dyno as well to compare? Wouldn't that be "unbiased" enough for both parties involved? The conditions will be the same for both and you don't hear anyone else complaining about IAT's, air speed, length of time on the dyno, etc, etc.
And I don't think because they called you out, that the dyno choice is yours. It needs to be a dyno that neither has any affiliation with. AMS is a competitor for both. I would think you'd be willing to put it on any dyno... oh well. We all know results vary anyways. But I'm curious; if an A4 B6 customer of yours bought GIAC and then dyno'd on the MAHA and the results for HP/TQ were not what GIAC claimed, what would your response be? And what if it did deliver what they claim?

I think we should put your concerns about the validity of MAHA dyno results into a letter and forward them to the manufacturer. You seem to know what you are talking about and they could only benefit from your knowledge.


I sent them a polite email. They never answered my questions.

[A4 - Oh Snap]

why does it have to be a MAHA dyno that you compare dyno numbers on? Why can't you just use any dyno and just make sure both cars are on that dyno so you can have an honest comparison?

I know some dyno's "inflate" numbers while others will "punish" your true numbers. There is no perfect balance.

Since you guys are all so willing to pay to dyno a car, just use the one that J.Moss uses. If he is still unwilling to do a comparison, then there really are no other alternatives and people can make their own judgements.

[neoprufrok]

I agree with Darryl. Why not compare both on two different dynos? This would equalize conditions.

[zemun2]

Originally posted by A4 - Oh Snap
why does it have to be a MAHA dyno that you compare dyno numbers on? Why can't you just use any dyno and just make sure both cars are on that dyno so you can have an honest comparison?

I know some dyno's "inflate" numbers while others will "punish" your true numbers. There is no perfect balance.

Since you guys are all so willing to pay to dyno a car, just use the one that J.Moss uses. If he is still unwilling to do a comparison, then there really are no other alternatives and people can make their own judgements.
Because MAHA is the only AUDI aproved dyno and the most acurate one out there.
That 170CHP number Audi claims their 1.8t hits was from the MAHA.
If you claim 250CHP with chip it has to be compared to the stock 170 and the only way to do it is on the same dyno 170CHP was produced on (MAHA).
Hope this clarifies things.

Dejan

[Jeff]

Originally posted by zemun2
Because MAHA is the only AUDI aproved dyno and the most acurate one out there.
That 170CHP number Audi claims their 1.8t hits was from the MAHA.
If you claim 250CHP with chip it has to be compared to the stock 170 and the only way to do it is on the same dyno 170CHP was produced on (MAHA).
Hope this clarifies things.

Dejan

...and BOSCH is one of the "Audi/VW" approved companies that manufacture components for our cars, including but not limited to: ::Dr. Evil Pinky Grin::: "Coil Packs", because a company "approves" or chooses a vendor, does not mean it's infallable or "perfect".

If you're into religion, some Catholics will "approve" the King James version of the Bible, while other religions disapproved and have their own "Koran", "Book of Mormon", etc... does that make one better than the other? This whole chip debate is almost like religion debates. MAHA is a great dyno, but it was also the MUSTANG that I dynoed 171hp on STOCK mode also.

Personally, dynos are merely a "TOOL" for tuning a car, and will NOT determine which car is "better" or "worse"--for there are many other factors. Coming from a high-power car to the Audi, I have seen dynos in the 500rwhp+ (these ~200 really make me laugh, but I own the car so what I can I say?). My previous car dynoed in at close to merely 420rwhp (~500bhp), my trap speeds were well in the 117-121mph range, which is another GOOD factor in determining power. I have raced cars dynoing over 600rwhp, both on the drag strip as well as streets, and the results were quite interesting believe it or not. Of course, my car on a 0-180mph straightaway on the fwy would get OWNED, but yet I was able to outdrive the driver, as well as beat his E.T. (12.5 compared to his 12.9)...I had almost 200hp LESS power, so really saying "power is everything" doesnt tell you all. The way your car is setup (suspension), your launch and 60ft, and most importantly, the DRIVER will, in the right car will ultimately tell you everything. The owner of the 600rwhp I beat had DEEP pockets, for turbo upgrades, dyno times (he was a dyno queen), and paying his tuner to "tune" his car he knew NOTHING about other than "my car is fast". But behind the wheel, the guy couldnt drive to save his own life out of a paper bag. Now I'm not saying people here "cant drive", but rather that a dyno sheet doesnt tell you everything.

I have worked on cars for many years despite my age, including rebuilding and overhauling my motors in my own garage with limited tools. I have tuned cars myself and not pay "Joe @ PimpMyRide" to do it. On occasions, my tuning paid off. On other occasions, the extra "tuning" cost me a whole motor. I learn from my (expensive) mistakes, and this is my background. But all in all it has paid off. This is also the same reason why a lot of people on the boards email me asking why I am so "crazy" for installing my own clutches, rebuilding motors, etc. I think it's fun personally, and nothing educates you more than personal "hands on experience" compared to just reading and regurgitating. But when I bought the Audi, I was introduced to a WHOLE NEW WORLD of tuning--EEPROM tuning. I was no longer able to simple splice in a resistor into the MAF and yank wastegate actuator hoses to pick up 50hp and tuning the car with a wideband and A/F meter, so in most parts, I will have to leave that part in the hands of the tuners (Neuspeed, APR, GIAC, and REVO).

It will be MY car that will be on the dyno (for GIAC), and both Jeff Moss as well as GIAC, for both techinical reasons, as well as some personal reasons do not want the car on the MAHA. Dont get me wrong, that MAHA fan is awesome, but like Moss mentioned, 100kph is merely just 62mph. By the end of 3rd gear, our cars will be well at 85mph already, not to mention 4th and 5th gear. The MAHA is the same dyno that dynoed my car with just Neuspeed chip at 195hp (bone stock + neuspeed chip only), but it IS a nice dyno, but it's not the ONLY dyno. Just because Audi "approves" it for use to dyno stock numbers, has nothing to do with whether REVO or GIAC "approves" of it for higher hp/aftermarket tuning use.

I think we should just leave all this "my shit is better than yours" bullshit behind us. David from Eurocode has sent me a personal invitation to bring my car out for a dyno out of his own pockets, which I think is REALLY nice of him to do so. (nice expense writeoff, but that's not the point..hehe). Regardless of the results, whether the GIAC hits 200, 220, or even 250 (as claimed), or whether who wins in the long run, should not undermine the final results or make one company better than the other. Personally, I think it will actually be a good "wakeup call" for the losing company to "get their shit together" and be more competitive, dont ya say? [:D] Damn, if only Microsoft had some competition from the Linux companies, i'd have a MUCH better job. :)

Hope we are all on the same note here.

-Jeff Lee
QTRO B6
AIM: "Quattro527"

[bugzy]

i got 140whp stock on the Mustang dyno at GIAC which is approximately 170hp ...

the Mustang dyno and the MAHA dyno are physically identical in design

the only difference is the MAHA dyno calculates for engine/drivetrain loss ...

so honestly if your looking at wheel power only, either dyno will do

[A4 - Oh Snap]

Go easy Jeff. I suppose these guys just want justification that they are getting what they paid for.

At the same time, its nice to know, ceteris paribus, which chip/mod may give you more for your money.

At the end of the day though, it all lies in the driver if the goal is to race and win. Horsepower doesn't mean a thing if one can't drive.

I'll have to say from my point though, for something so trivial as running a dyno on a specific dyno, it sucks that a tuner will not compromise and provide a few hours to deliver what the consumers want. Bottom line though, from a buyer's point of view, I'd probably buy the product that had the "most accurate" dyno results, regardless of whether its good or bad. If MAHA is the most accurate and is the official dyno, then so be it. I support tuners that have faith in their product and who will go the extra mile to prove it.

Coke or Pepsi?

[bugzy]

to solve the issue with MAHA and mustang or whatever the issue is between using GIAC's dyno and AMS

lets go outside the box

why not use Easy Street www.esxmotorsport.com who has the 8 second subaru ... they do mainly subaru's so their dyno #'s should be neutral

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by A4 - Oh Snap
Go easy Jeff. I suppose these guys just want justification that they are getting what they paid for.

At the same time, its nice to know, ceteris paribus, which chip/mod may give you more for your money.

At the end of the day though, it all lies in the driver if the goal is to race and win. Horsepower doesn't mean a thing if one can't drive.

I'll have to say from my point though, for something so trivial as running a dyno on a specific dyno, it sucks that a tuner will not compromise and provide a few hours to deliver what the consumers want. Bottom line though, from a buyer's point of view, I'd probably buy the product that had the "most accurate" dyno results, regardless of whether its good or bad. If MAHA is the most accurate and is the official dyno, then so be it. I support tuners that have faith in their product and who will go the extra mile to prove it.

Coke or Pepsi?


Well said Snap, I concur.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
Pinging, is probably the #1 complaint with people that have chips, that or surging. On stock injectors my car is maxed out right now, there is no Revo X chip that will give me more power with my current setup. W/out going with bigger injectors I can't get past 225HP on 100 octane.

It's not bad when you properly advance the timing, that's one way the programmers make more power on our cars, or for any car, along with raising the boost level on our K03's. It's only bad when you advance it too much, especially if you are running 91 octane or you don't have a FMIC, then detonation (pinging) occurs and the ECU compensates and pulls back the timing so your engine doesn't blow. The more your ECU is pulling the timing back to prevent pinging, the more the chip has been programmed for timing advance. 0-5 degrees is the optimal range for our ECU to compensate for pushing the timing, it's simply a safety device, 10 degrees is way too high though and it can cause damage. I'll vag your car if you'd like or if there's ever a GTG, I'll show you what I mean on the Prodiag. [:)]

Pinging, knocking, preignition, and detonation are the same as they are different--for they have different severities as well as occur during different cycles of the combustion process.

Pinging occurs when the overall combustion temperature exceeds the maximum threshold of the overall combustion, where the fuel burned is no longer making "mechanical energy" but rather just a sparatic and uncontrolled "explosion". You often hear pinging as "coins inside an empty soda can", but its effects are not at all really "harmful" to break anything. In most cases, the ECU will pick up pinging and retard timing to compensate. Even BONE STOCK cars will often ping, either with a bad tank of gas, going up hill, or on a piss hot day, but it is perfectly normal as long as the ECU is smart enough to compensate. A good way to prevent this is higher octane, and stay away from the California "MTBE" additive, which raises combustion temps so the tailpipe output is CLEANER with only Co2 and H20 as it's output. (As per the Clean Air Act of 1994, which killed it for all of us car enthusiasts).

Preignition is the predecessor to knocking as well as detonation. Preignition, as defined with it's word, meaning igniting the A/F mixture prematurely. This occurs when the combustion tempers exceed 900degrees, and the tip (center electrode) of your sparkplug gets so hot, that it begins to "heat glow" and begin igniting the mixture even without an actual "spark". At many times, this leads to "knocking", again the name describes it. Knocking sounds like "clunks" from your engine, as if you are tapping it with the end of a screw driver or even hammer (depending on how bad). In most cases, these are what knock sensors are for (0-20vdc). Knock sensors work like motion and shock sensors, that will tell the ECU when the engine is actually "knocking" (which occurs at ~20vdc on the Audi), and a "smart" and well tuned ECU will know to pull the timing back to compensate. Usually a little knock can be normal, and not very detrimental to the motor as long as it is sustained.

The biggest and the sum of all fears is Detonation. Detonation occurs when combustion temps exceed ~980 degrees and does not dissapate or supressed from timing retardation. Just imagine detonation as taking a mallet and HAMMERING the top of one of your pistons while it is on it's exhaust or compression stroke (up). Remember those games we used to play for tickets to see how many rats or alligators you can hit when they pop up before they bite? Detonation is very detrimental to your motor, including your connecting rods and its bearing "spinning" (spinning rod bearings), your pistons cracking and its rings melting, and also your crank and its seals and valve train. Detonation does not often occur, but is also not impossible to achieve with low octane, lack of fuel, and prolonged and high boost.

The #1 factor that contributes too ALL of the symptoms I mentioned above is HEAT. Heat is built when boost is increased, timing is advanced, or simply lack of "octane" or fuel itself. Fuel in most cases is what cools the combustion chamber, and the heat is often dissapated by the sparkplug. This is why people use colder sparkplugs, so it can pull the heat away from the combustion chamber into the cooling system (head) faster. From my tuning experience in the past, (even with my outdated and ancient OBD-1 ECU), is that timing is really irrevalent as long as all your sensors are working properly, and that your car has enough room for timing to be retarded enough to prevent anything from "breaking". Perhaps the MOST IMPORTANT key in tuning is watching your EGT's (Exhaust Gas Temperatures) over watching timing. Your EGT's tell you almost EVERYTHING that is going on inside the combustion chamber, from how HOT it is running, to how long it is taking for the combustion temps to drop. If your EGT's are well within range and your monitor it, you wouldnt really NEED to worry about your timing, unless you are planning to advance it some more to squeeze out some extra power, but either way, looking at those EGT's will tell you when is "too much timing really too much", and that if you really have enough octane of amount of fuel to supress those EGT temps.

Octane plays a BIG factor in tuning as well. Many people often misconceptualize octane as "higher, the more power", but that is completely wrong. (I often laugh seeing kids put in the 91 inside their bone stock Honda Civic). Octane is simply a number to measure it's "anti knock" ability. As we all know, and from what I described previously about knock, any time the ECU and knock sensors pick up knock, it should (or YOU should) pull back and retard the timing. We also know, that the more timing we put in, the more overall power output (bigger combustion). Higher octane simply allows us to push those boost levels, timing maps, and all the other "heat makers" and supress them. Higher octane fuels have a higher flash point, meaning they will burn cooler, and withstand higher levels of heat before actually "breaking up" (losing the mechanical energy when burned and causing knock).

However, we cannot possibly be running race gas in our cars 24/7 (especially with the prices these days). This is why people will upgrade the fuel injectors to supply MORE fuel to cool the combustion temps to allow more timing and boost (= more power). Race gas is a good way to maximize your power levels, but it is only as good as the flow rate of the injectors itself (the weakest link).

I often question those who rant and rave about "knocking" and "timing" everyday on the boards (2 important yet insubstantial elements in tuning), when they all lead to ONE MAIN factor that is often overlooked: combustion temps (or EGT's), which will tell any amatuer tuner how much and how high you can push the limits. If those temps are minimized (either via MORE fuel or higher octane, and a good cooling system to pull the heat), then you can advance and crank the boost all you want (assuming your shortblock itself can handle the excess stress). Another good way to cool the combustion temps besides fuel is the other part of the "A/F"--the air. Cooling charge air temps (ie bigger IC, colder air on the intake) is also a good thing to do.

-Jeff Lee
QTRO B6
AIM: "Quattro527"

[Jeff]

Originally posted by A4 - Oh Snap


Coke or Pepsi?

Hmmm... I liked Coke, but then the "Pepsi Challenge" truck parked outside my work and paid me to drink their soda, they also told me I can will a billion bucks... so Pepsi it is! [:D]

j/k

But yea, you got a good analogy though. Everybody has their own preference. This whole GIAC vs APR thing is nowhere NEAR what goes on on the LS1 and Mustang boards (Chevy vs Ford), which has been going on for DECADES. I've seen fast Fords (though I am a GM guy), and I've also seen fast Chevy's, and both have their fair share of pro's and con's.

[Krendor]

It really bothers me that GIAC itself is afraid of the MAHA Every company I've dealt with in any industry has a reason you don't want to know as to why they purposely avoid certain testing methods...for instance TI doesn't want you moving your eyes quickly when testing a DLP product as you will find the fault, rainbows, been told as much by a TI trained salesmen

kind of scary to think if you run on a freeway behind a big truck and don't get full air flow what could happen, kaboom?? I'm willing to bet being behind a big rig will give you less air flow than any fan on any dyno, consider this, one bike rider riding behind another saves 40% of his energy, says alot about air flow eh...


If I had a Porsche I'd go tech-art anywho...

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by Jeff

I often question those who rant and rave about "knocking" and "timing" everyday on the boards (2 important yet insubstantial elements in tuning), when they all lead to ONE MAIN factor that is often overlooked: combustion temps (or EGT's), which will tell any amatuer tuner how much and how high you can push the limits. If those temps are minimized (either via MORE fuel or higher octane, and a good cooling system to pull the heat), then you can advance and crank the boost all you want (assuming your shortblock itself can handle the excess stress). Another good way to cool the combustion temps besides fuel is the other part of the "A/F"--the air. Cooling charge air temps (ie bigger IC, colder air on the intake) is also a good thing to do.



[confused] LOL, Thanks for the lesson kid, maybe you should send this email to Garret? [;)] I'll buy you lunch at the next GTG or Dyno day maybe you can tell me how a turbo actually works. LOL, I'm a Ford guy and I like Coke so this explains it all. [:p] All in fun Jeff, not attacking you! Foo don't ban me!!!

I just spoke to Jeff Moss on the phone. We had a great conversation, I apologized for calling his 250HP claim a lie. We agreed that we have some disagreements and that is all, and will let the chips fall as they may, no pun intended!!!! This is behind us, I wished him luck and success. Also I may be speaking to Garret himself about the problems I had with my T28, evidently he asked about it. At least I know he gave it some thought, still a dyno day would be fun, always cool hanging out with my fellow audi buds, that means you too Jeff. [;)]

[Jeff]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
[confused] LOL, Thanks for the lesson kid, maybe you should send this email to Garret? [;)] I'll buy you lunch at the next GTG or Dyno day maybe you can tell me how a turbo actually works. LOL, I'm a Ford guy and I like Coke so this explains it all. [:p] All in fun Jeff, not attacking you! Foo don't ban me!!!

Not YOU in particular, I do believe that you "know your shit", it's some people that get the terms often confused. Perhaps I shouldnt have quoted YOU directly.

Anyhoo, where in LA are you located at Drew?

-Jeff

[A4NCAR]

Originally posted by Jeff


It will be MY car that will be on the dyno (for GIAC), and both Jeff Moss as well as GIAC, for both techinical reasons, as well as some personal reasons do not want the car on the MAHA. Dont get me wrong, that MAHA fan is awesome, but like Moss mentioned, 100kph is merely just 62mph. By the end of 3rd gear, our cars will be well at 85mph already, not to mention 4th and 5th gear. The MAHA is the same dyno that dynoed my car with just Neuspeed chip at 195hp (bone stock + neuspeed chip only), but it IS a nice dyno, but it's not the ONLY dyno. Just because Audi "approves" it for use to dyno stock numbers, has nothing to do with whether REVO or GIAC "approves" of it for higher hp/aftermarket tuning use.

I think we should just leave all this "my shit is better than yours" bullshit behind us. David from Eurocode has sent me a personal invitation to bring my car out for a dyno out of his own pockets, which I think is REALLY nice of him to do so. (nice expense writeoff, but that's not the point..hehe). Regardless of the results, whether the GIAC hits 200, 220, or even 250 (as claimed), or whether who wins in the long run, should not undermine the final results or make one company better than the other. Personally, I think it will actually be a good "wakeup call" for the losing company to "get their shit together" and be more competitive, dont ya say? [:D] Damn, if only Microsoft had some competition from the Linux companies, i'd have a MUCH better job. :)

Hope we are all on the same note here.

-Jeff Lee
QTRO B6
AIM: "Quattro527"



Ah, now I see what's going on. I didn't notice who you were at first, but you're the one who had the Nesupeed 1.5 Bar Chip and dyno'd on the MAHA last year. The results were not good IIRC; 163hp, 180?hp. basically very low. So both you and J. Moss have reasons for not wanting to use the MAHA then - blame the dyno, not the tuner. The MAHA works. Stock vehicles have shown the numbers, and some chipped/turbo upgraded ones have as well. Just that many are not producing what they claim and I think it has a lot to do with the fact that they are using these OTHER dyno's.
I think what we need here, is a more unbiased approach with both the car and owner. We need a stock A4 B6 owner who doesn't care about which dyno or which chip is used and really has no opinion of them either way. Then we just have the chips installed and go at it. I don't even think a REVO or GIAC representative (dealer) should be there IMO. Just take the cars by their facility, have them install whatever they need to and go to the dyno. Same thing that would happen if a customer just visited and bought the upgrade. Let's keep it as real as possible.

If we could get the MAHA's airflow speed to match the car speed, would that make you happy? Does this OTHER dyno produce the correct air speed and volume then?

Personally I don't care about any of this, except for wanting to see both cars dyno'd on the MAHA. And then if it is absolutely necesary, dyno them on another one to compare. What's the BIG deal [rolleyes] Just do it. It's free!! Talk is cheap. Let's get these cars equipped with the respected tuners chip and dyno the damn things,geeesh.

My MTM Stage 2 dyno'd like sh!t on the MAHA. But you don't hear me complaining that the dyno is to blame. I know it's not running right.

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by Jeff
Not YOU in particular, I do believe that you "know your shit", it's some people that get the terms often confused. Perhaps I shouldnt have quoted YOU directly.

Anyhoo, where in LA are you located at Drew?

-Jeff

No worries man you've got passion nothing wrong with that, sounds like Jeff is doing alot for you as David has for me, it's all good. I'm in Burbank, I'll see you at the Dyno day if there is one, LOL, or a GTG, I think there's one tonight, not sure if I can make it though.

Best,

Drew

[Jeff]

Originally posted by A4NCAR
Ah, now I see what's going on. I didn't notice who you were at first, but you're the one who had the Nesupeed 1.5 Bar Chip and dyno'd on the MAHA last year. The results were not good IIRC; 163hp, 180?hp. basically very low. So both you and J. Moss have reasons for not wanting to use the MAHA then - blame the dyno, not the tuner. The MAHA works. Stock vehicles have shown the numbers, and some chipped/turbo upgraded ones have as well. Just that many are not producing what they claim and I think it has a lot to do with the fact that they are using these OTHER dyno's.
I think what we need here, is a more unbiased approach with both the car and owner. We need a stock A4 B6 owner who doesn't care about which dyno or which chip is used and really has no opinion of them either way. Then we just have the chips installed and go at it. I don't even think a REVO or GIAC representative (dealer) should be there IMO. Just take the cars by their facility, have them install whatever they need to and go to the dyno. Same thing that would happen if a customer just visited and bought the upgrade. Let's keep it as real as possible.

If we could get the MAHA's airflow speed to match the car speed, would that make you happy? Does this OTHER dyno produce the correct air speed and volume then?

Personally I don't care about any of this, except for wanting to see both cars dyno'd on the MAHA. And then if it is absolutely necesary, dyno them on another one to compare. What's the BIG deal [rolleyes] Just do it. It's free!! Talk is cheap. Let's get these cars equipped with the respected tuners chip and dyno the damn things,geeesh.

My MTM Stage 2 dyno'd like sh!t on the MAHA. But you don't hear me complaining that the dyno is to blame. I know it's not running right.

Actually the car did like 185 the first time around, still far from the "210" claim. The 166hp run was done after the ECU was reset, either way, the results sucked ass. I have other personal reasons against AMS itself, and even though it is FREE, I would not bother to even go there. The MAHA is good for calculating crank HP (but if you have other components that alter drivetrain loss, it will NOT be able to automatically do that), but measuring to the wheels, most dynos should come well within range. I dont blame the dyno either, perhaps just the owner of the dyno and his unethical business practices. Marc knew WELL that I had the POS Neuspeed in the car, and therefore RIGGED the raffle to get my car up there to "make an example" out of me I later found out. YES, those numbers were embarrassing, but if you were there that day, it was also a nice approach and way to see his AMS chip, with the saying "This is the prime example of the kind of crap you guys buy out there! (showing the dyno results), when my ABT/AMS chip comes out, it's gonna be.... " (the next thing to happen since the automobile). I think that is pretty messed up personally, but yea, the Neuspeed 1.5 chip sucked pretty bad man. :)

-Jeff

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by A4 - Oh Snap
why does it have to be a MAHA dyno that you compare dyno numbers on? Why can't you just use any dyno and just make sure both cars are on that dyno so you can have an honest comparison?

I know some dyno's "inflate" numbers while others will "punish" your true numbers. There is no perfect balance.

Since you guys are all so willing to pay to dyno a car, just use the one that J.Moss uses. If he is still unwilling to do a comparison, then there really are no other alternatives and people can make their own judgements.


Ding, ding!

As long as all car are tested on the same machine the only numbers that matter is the differences between them.

Jeff

[DGS4]

Jeff. Your posts should come with cliff notes bro. [:p]

[Jeff]

Originally posted by DGS4
Jeff. Your posts should come with cliff notes bro. [:p]

Hmmm...

[Jeff]

Originally posted by DGS4
Jeff. Your posts should come with cliff notes bro. [:p]

Nah... Marty, why dont you take your S4 and go shove it! [:D]

1.8 4-Bangers rule! (I dont have the VTEC you had though, sorry) hehe

-Jeff